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Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09

DigiTrad:
THE LONESOME DEATH OF HATTIE CARROLL


Related threads:
True Lies: Bob Dylan's Hattie Carroll (29)
BS: William Zantzinger dead - 10 January 2009 (35)


PoppaGator 21 May 09 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,TALYA CARROLL 21 May 09 - 12:21 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Apr 09 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Jim P 13 Feb 09 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Student 13 Feb 09 - 01:09 AM
Effsee 06 Feb 09 - 11:04 PM
Roger in Baltimore 06 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Harvey 24 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 23 Jan 09 - 05:21 PM
PoppaGator 23 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Harvey 23 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Harvey 23 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Harvey 23 Jan 09 - 02:00 PM
Skivee 21 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Harvey 21 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,random 15 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM
open mike 13 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,AAW 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM
Matt_R 10 Jan 09 - 04:33 PM
GUEST 09 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM
Jeri 09 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM
Leadfingers 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM
PoppaGator 09 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM
GUEST 09 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 09 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,KevBoyd 09 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Phil D, London 09 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM
Dave Hanson 08 Jan 09 - 03:05 AM
Padre 07 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM
The Vulgar Boatman 07 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM
Dave Hanson 07 Jan 09 - 03:16 AM
Effsee 06 Jan 09 - 11:07 PM
GUEST 06 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM
Leadfingers 06 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM
PoppaGator 06 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM
Jeri 06 Jan 09 - 10:14 AM
bobad 06 Jan 09 - 10:13 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Jan 09 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Folkways 06 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Bootlebarth 04 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Guest 04 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM
PoppaGator 15 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM
Bill D 15 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Daniel Waller 15 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Guest, NAV 03 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,the canadian 19 Jun 08 - 11:27 PM
katlaughing 02 Jun 08 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 27 May 08 - 02:01 AM
balladeer 24 May 08 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Tom Cooper 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 May 09 - 02:34 PM

Talya ~ read just above and you'll see that WZ has been dead since January. I'm sorry to hear that your family is still suffering from his depraved indifference.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,TALYA CARROLL
Date: 21 May 09 - 12:21 PM

I READ YOUR COMMENTS AND WOULD LIKE FOR YOU ALL TO KNOW THAT THE CARROLL FAMILY DID NOT GET THE JUSTICE WE DESERVED IN THAT TRIAL. I AM THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF HATTIE CARROLL, AND I WITNESS FALL OUT BETWEEN MEMBERS OF OUR FAMILY AND ALSO HER CHILDREN ARE DYING BY THE YEARS.. DURING THAT TIME MANY OF HER 13 CHILDREN MOVED OUT OF THE BALTIMORE AREA AND HAVE NOT BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THE OTHERS LEAVING OUR FAMILY BROKEN. I WOULD HONESTLY LOVE TO MEET WILLIAM ZANZINGER GRANTED THAT HE'S STILL ALIVE IF NOT I WOULD LIKE TO SPIT ON HIS GRAVE AND HOPE HE DOESNT GET ETERNAL PEACE!!


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:05 PM

Was poking through a list of Notable deaths this year and Zantzinger is in it. Don't know how durable these links are.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,Jim P
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:00 AM

Any other people here with a little gray in their beards and/or hair that want to take issue with calling a 51 year old woman "elderly"? On the other hand, if I had 11 kids instead of the three I do have, I'd probably feel "elderly" too.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,Student
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 01:09 AM

I notice these latest articles fail to mention the racial epiphets Zanzinger used and the force he maintained whilst 'rapping' as they lightly called it, an elderly black woman with a cane.
He assaulted another black maid at the same event calling her a 'ni**er' and striking her across the buttocks multiple times. It seems the most descriptive and non-PC articles, understandibly, are those written in 1963, on the day Hattie, the elderly black woman, was murdered.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:04 PM

..."Zantzinger lived long enough to see Martin Luther King, Jr., honored with a national holiday and to know that this week Barack Obama would be inaugurated as President"...

that's probably what killed him!


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM

Here's the full article.

A LONESOME DEATH
by David Simon January 26, 2009
In February of 1963, twenty-four-year-old William Zantzinger, armed with a toy carnival cane and wrecked on whiskey, made a spectacle of himself at the Spinsters' Ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore. He was a drunken country mouse in the big city, at a time when the notion of racial equality had barely shown itself in the neighborhood of his father's tobacco farm. When the hotel's black waitstaff was slow to serve Zantzinger another drink, he yelled racial epithets at Hattie Carroll, a barmaid and a fifty-one-year-old mother of eleven, and he rapped her on the shoulder with his cane. She became upset, then collapsed and died of a stroke.
Bob Dylan read about the case in the newspaper. He wrote the magnificent "Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" with the paper splayed on the table of a Seventh Avenue luncheonette. Zantzinger was then and forever after a master villain.
Twenty-five years later, I tried to interview him for a newspaper story. He was working in a real-estate office (there was an equal-housing sticker on the door), and I found Zantzinger a disappointing lump of a man, with small dark eyes and black hair thinning from behind. The eyes followed me angrily as I offered up my two-sides-to-every-story patter, trying to get him to talk.
"There was a girl come down here from Baltimore five years ago," he said. "I didn't talk to her. And one before that. I got nothing to say."
I tried trashing Dylan: "That son of a bitch libelled you. You could've sued his ass for what he did." Zantzinger smiled. "We were gonna sue him big time. Scared that boy good!" he said. "The song was a lie. Just a damned lie."
He enjoyed talking about how his lawyer had fired shots across Dylan's bow. Columbia Records was on the receiving end as well, Zantzinger said, adding that he dropped the idea of a lawsuit because, after being convicted of manslaughter and assault, he'd seen enough of courtrooms and controversy.
By then, too, there was little left of Zantzinger's reputation. But even a dispassionate reading of the facts of the case leads one to conclude that Dylan took great liberties. Hattie Carroll was not "slain by a cane" that was "doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle," as Dylan wrote. No physical injury was done to her, nor was there any evidence to suggest lethal intent. The medical examiner's report—citing Carroll's enlarged heart and severe hypertension—attributed her death as much to Zantzinger's verbal abuse as to the tap of his cane. Nor did Zantzinger have "high office relations in the politics of Maryland" to influence the case, as Dylan implied.
Zantzinger ran through all of this. He knew the song and its equivocations. He knew precisely the historical role to which it had consigned him.
"He did some good stuff, I guess," he said of Dylan. "The blowing-with-the-wind song, that one? But I'm probably not gonna be the best judge. I mean, for me, he's not much of a singer."
I told Zantzinger about a note I had found in the old homicide file: "Attached is correspondence from . . . a folksinger in New York who seeks information about the aforementioned case, which was investigated by your agency." But Dylan's letter wasn't attached—snatched, perhaps, as a souvenir, from the police files. But the cover sheet, dated months after the release of "Hattie Carroll," was telling. Dylan was apparently writing too late to improve his song's accuracy; his letter was the reaction of a worried young man.
Zantzinger enjoyed that immensely. I told him that the Carroll children would not talk. He acknowledged that he had paid them money in an out-of-court settlement.
"I know that I caused that woman's death," he said. "I'm responsible. Me talking does nothing for that woman or her family. Just put this in your article: I admire and respect the Carroll family for their decision not to talk publicly. Like them, I think the best thing to do is let it rest." When I got up to go, he extended his hand, and I took it. He stayed in his chair, and I saw myself out.
Picasso said that art is the lie that shows us the truth, and that's how Dylan and his ballad should probably be judged. But to hold that standard to William Zantzinger, the man, who died earlier this month, at the age of sixty-nine, seems too crude a measure. In 1963, he was sentenced to six months in jail for Hattie Carroll's death, on the same day as the March on Washington.
Zantzinger lived long enough to see Martin Luther King, Jr., honored with a national holiday and to know that this week Barack Obama would be inaugurated as President. We can imagine him galled at this outcome, a small-minded racist rightly defined by his ugliest moment. Perhaps that's him, or perhaps he was more than that. At any rate, he knew his part and he played it to the end. ♦

The New Yorker – February 6, 2009

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

relevant excerpt from the New Yorker article:

A Lonesome Death
by David Simon January 26, 2009

In February of 1963, twenty-four-year-old William Zantzinger, armed with a toy carnival cane and wrecked on whiskey, made a spectacle of himself at the Spinsters' Ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore. He was a drunken country mouse in the big city, at a time when the notion of racial equality had barely shown itself in the neighborhood of his father's tobacco farm. When the hotel's black waitstaff was slow to serve Zantzinger another drink, he yelled racial epithets at Hattie Carroll, a barmaid and a fifty-one-year-old mother of eleven, and he rapped her on the shoulder with his cane. She became upset, then collapsed and died of a stroke.

Bob Dylan read about the case in the newspaper. He wrote the magnificent "Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" with the paper splayed on the table of a Seventh Avenue luncheonette. Zantzinger was then and forever after a master villain.

...... But even a dispassionate reading of the facts of the case leads one to conclude that Dylan took great liberties. Hattie Carroll was not "slain by a cane" that was "doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle," as Dylan wrote. No physical injury was done to her, nor was there any evidence to suggest lethal intent. The medical examiner's report—citing Carroll's enlarged heart and severe hypertension—attributed her death as much to Zantzinger's verbal abuse as to the tap of his cane. Nor did Zantzinger have "high office relations in the politics of Maryland" to influence the case, as Dylan implied.
.......


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:21 PM

The New Yorker article says Dylan misrepresented Zantzinger, making him more of a villain and less of a wealthy and influential man than he was, to make the lightness of the sentence seem like something it wasn't. But no sources are cited, so we only have his word for it.

It was written by a David Simon, who says he was a newspaper reporter in 1988 when he tried to interview Zantzinger. The Wire's creator is also named David Simon, and he was a Baltimore Sun reporter from 1983 to 1995. The online version of the Zantzinger article says nothing about the author, but clicking on his name shows it's the only one he's written for the New Yorker.

I was mistaken earlier when I said that the murder rate peaked at 276 in 2004.
A January 4, 2009 article reported 282 murders in Baltimore in 2007, and a record 352 in 1993. It also suggested that nearly all the murders in Baltimore involve drug gangs, as in the TV series.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

This week's New Yorker features an interview with Zantzinger, conducted not long before his recent death. Amos provides a link in that "other" current Zantzinger Obit thread.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

I just read the Wikipedia article on the 1999-2006 Irish-American mayor of Baltimore, who became governor in 2007 (as did Carcetti, the Italian-American mayor in the series, played by an Irish actor who couldn't completely conceal his accent). Like Carcetti, he was a young reformer who tried to improve the police department and reduce the crime rate. The article gives some crime statistics that appear to confirm the level of violence portrayed in The Wire. The city was fifth most dangerous in 2005 and twelfth most dangerous in 2006. The overall rate of violent crimes dropped by 14% from 2000 to 2003 (The Wire first aired in June of 2002), but the murder rate increased slightly, peaking at 276 in 2004, and still five times as high per capita as New York City in 2005.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM

Another January 9, 2009 story reports that a Baltimore city councilwoman was indicted on bribery, perjury, malfeasance in office and nonfeasance in office.

And there was a very interesting June 22, 2004 report that the 2000-2002 Baltimore police commissioner who went on to head the state police (like acting commissioner Rawls in the series), was sentenced to six months in federal prison after pleading guilty to misuse of Baltimore police department funds. The fact that he played a police detective in the series, apparently both before and after his prison term, suggests that not everyone agrees with you that the show is a misrepresentation.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:00 PM

Skivee, The Wire never denied that the rich in Baltimore are getting richer and that sections of the city have been gentrified as a backdrop for their lifestyle. There were many scenes in the series showing the redeveloped harbor area, and showing people involved in the ongoing development projects in that area and others. The gangsters in the series often laundered their drug profits through those projects.

I was happy to hear that corruption is on the decline. News stories posted on the internet appear to confirm that strong measures are being taken against corrupt officials, but unfortunately the picture they paint is that at the time the series started it was much closer to the reality of the city than I thought. One wonders whether the TV show may have been helpful in calling attention to a problem and helping to generate support for a solution.

A January 9, 2009 story reports that the current mayor of Baltimore, who bears some resemblance to Mayor Nerese Campbell in the series was indicted on 12 counts of theft, perjury, fraud and misconduct in office. Her statement in the video that she will be acquitted recalls what happened to state senator Clay in the last season of the series.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Skivee
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Harvey, it would be a huge mistake to confuse The Wire with reality. The author has done two other shows about life on the streets
in Baltimore. Some of the show is based on his experiences as a crime reporter for the Baltimore Sunpapers. I enjoy his work a lot...as entertainment.
On the other hand, I have a political reporter friend who lives in Federal Hill. He is apoplectic over the portrayal of his much-improved and much-maligned hometown.
Baltimore has been very much improved over the last 40 years. I remeber when the most well known feature of the city was "the Block"; the seedy strip-club, dive bar, bordello section of town.
Now, most folks know it for The Inner Harbor and Fells Point. It's an upscale restaurant, business and residential area stretching over a couple of miles. The quay is completely packed with families and groups of every stripe on any summer day.
Baltimore has become a beautiful city through a lot of hard work by its citizens and public officials. Is there corruption in Charm City? Sure, but at a MUCH lower level than in the past.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

Not to defend Zantzinger, who clearly had some problems, but the song isn't really about him. It's about injustice and corrupt government.

"The time for your tears" is not when you hear about the attack and arrest, and not when you hear background information on the attacker or the victim, but when you learn how the justice system handled a murder when the killer was white, wealthy, and well-connected and the victim was black.

The recent HBO TV series "The Wire" is about present-day corruption in Baltimore. Apparently it's racially integrated now, but at least as bad as it was when Hattie Carroll was killed.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,random
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM

he died ten days before the 45th anniversairy of the day the album with "the Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" was released


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: open mike
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM

cross-link to other Zantzinger thread

curious how "Mr. Z" could mean Zantzinger or Zimmerman...

sometimes we all have as many similarities as differences....


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,AAW
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

Mr. Z and his family are old friends with my family. He graduated from Sidwell Friends H.S. with my mother. I went to Charlotte Hall Military Academy with his kids, and spent many weekends with them in the mid 70's. I have only the fondest thoughts & memories of him and his family, and for me, it's impossible to match the Mr. Z I knew with the skeletons that were in his closet.
Many who read this may be disappointed to learn that every time I saw him (a couple times per year,.. last time in June 2008) he always appeared to be the happiest man alive. He worked hard and played hard, and was the most down to earth, least pretentious person imaginable.
Everyone will believe what they want to belief....but all should always remember that we never know more than just a small fraction of any story.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Matt_R
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:33 PM

I'll stand over your grave 'til I'm sure that you're dead.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM

Let me start by saying I am very sorry for what the carrol family has had to go through,there is nothing i can say to lessen the pain. I have gone through death of family members and friends and it is not easy, only time can help heal the pain.

I also am a friend of William Zantzingers son and just went to Mr Zantzingers viewing. In know way am i defending his actions but i do believe his actions were exagerated for bob dylan to sell records. Hattie carroll died yes, but everything i read said from health issues, stress and I am sure as a church going woman, never being spoken to or treated like that before, but there were never any marks found on her from being struck. that is in my opinion the reason the charges were lessened to manslaughter.

Bob Dylan was on the way home from a political movement involving Mr Kings we have a dream speach when he heard the story, and how better to sell records than to write a song about what could be front page news. It is obvious he wrote it in minutes because half the song is proven to be false.

That being said does not mean Mr Z was a saint,but i do know even though he was called a slumlord in charles county, he provided housing for people that would have been living on the streets, granted conditions not much better than, but still better. I actually put carpet and cabinets in many of his rentals.

all i would ask is that you would research the whole story before jumping on the lynching bandwagon, I would guess most of the people on her have family members that have people in their familes that could be crusified if they believed everything the media said to sell papers, and im not on there blogs spitting on their grave sites.

rest in peace MR Z


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

Not on my computer, LF.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

Interesting that the 'Rolling Stone' link was to the Mudcat Thread !


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

Don't close this thread, please.

Now that Mr. Z is so recently dead, there are sure to be more contributions by more folks, and as always, some of them should prove to be enlightening. I know that many of the messages I've read here over the years have made me stop and think, and to develop an ever-more-nuanced overall picture of what really happened at that Baltimore hotel society gathering so many years ago, and about what's happened since then, too.

Has there ever been a Mudcat thread with more GUEST postings, or a higher percentage of them? Many "strangers" have Googled (or otherwise "sserached") for Zantzinger, or for Hattie Carroll, or for Dylan, been directed here, and then been moved to write something to us. There have been many different viewpoints, some more intelligent and interesting than others, and the whole spectrum has really been something to consider. Let's allow the process to continue for as long as people have anything to say about injustice ~ incuding those who feel that "Mr Billy" was himself victimized in some sense.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

His death is noted today in the New York Times.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

And this

... and this

which doesn't always work so here's the URL:
http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/01/08/man-bob-dylan-made-infamous-with-the-lonesome-death-of-hattie-carroll-dies/


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,KevBoyd
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM

I just found this


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Phil D, London
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM

Anyone know date and place of birth of Zantzinger?

Phil D


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:05 AM

A man who showed complete and utter contempt for his fellow human beings deserves no sympathy, and he never thought he'd done anything wrong anyway.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Padre
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM

I hope that the moderator will finally close this thread - with the death of WZ there seems to be no need for continued vituperation, except for those who wish to show their 'superiority'


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Lost for words, I dredged the memory - there is an apt arabic saying, once quoted by T E Lawrence:
"May Allah greet you with shit on your face"
That does it for me.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:16 AM

REST IN PEACE !!! he should be burning in hell FFS.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:07 PM

Guest, it's difficult to have any compassion for such a piece of shit that was Zantzinger! His family would probably agree! They are well rid of of him, as is the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

Have a heart and some compassion, he is someone's father, husband and brother. Rest in Peace Billy.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

One of the few Bob Dylans songs I STILL sing ! I cant say that I would regret the passing of Mr Zantzinger !


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

Bootlebarth ~ Amen!

When I saw this venerable old thread title, my first thought was, "That thread will never die ~ or at least not until Zantzinger dies!" So I opened it up, and lo and behold . . . he is finally dead.

Good fucking riddance.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:14 AM

A brief death notice at baynet.com.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:13 AM

There's a mention of it here


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:10 AM

I don't find an online mention or obituary. You'd think that would spark a little discussion. Post a link if you have one, please.

Thanks,

SRS


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Folkways
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Billie Zantzinger died a few days ago (January 2009)


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Bootlebarth
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

'The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll' has always affected me emotionally, ever since 1964, so I don't listen to it often. Yesterday, Jan 3, I watched a very old Dylan video on youtube singing 'Hattie Carroll' on black and white television. I burst into tears and couldn't explain my reaction. Now we're told that Zantzinger died on that day.

For what it's worth, murder involves an intent to kill, or doing something that a reasonable person might expect could have a fatal outcome. My reading of events in 1963 is that Zantzinger - drunken, violent, racist bully that he was - had no intent to kill or even seriously hurt Hattie Carroll. His verbal and physical assaults on her were disgraceful and indefensible, and her death very probably resulted from them, but manslaughter was the correct charge. Whether the sentence should have been harsher is another matter.

No small culpability rests with other guests at the 'society gathering'. It seems that nobody intervened to stop a series of assaults by the drunken Zantzinger. Never forget that the best way to ensure that evil thrives is for other people to stand by and do nothing.

The only consolation from that tragic evening in 1963 would have been signs of remorse from Zantzinger and a mending of his ways. There's ample evidence in this thread and elsewhere that he didn't change. Bob Dylan's extraordinary song is the only good thing to have come from Hattie Carroll's death. I hope we can all agree here that we'd have been happier if Hattie had lived a full ration of days and the song had never been written.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM

William Zantzinger died Jan. 3, 2009.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM

I learned something interesting about "Lonesome Death of Hattie Caroll" only recently, probably from some bit of DVD "commentary" or "special features" accompanying one of the several recent Dylan films.

The song was written very shortly after the infamous Birmingham church bombing. When every other topical-songwriting folkie was trying to compose something about that particular event and the little girls who were killed, Bob chose instead to write about an entirely different instance of death-by-racial-injustice, in another locality, but (of course) at just about the same time.

One commentator's theory is that this approach may have served to indicate the universality of the problem, that the currently-infamous bombing was not an isolated incident.

Racial violence was not ancient history at the time of the civil rights revolution is the early-to-mid sizxties. The diehard segregationists were not willing to concede defeat willingly or easily, and perpetrated as much mayhem as they could before they inevitably faded into obsolesence.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Daniel...did you know her? It would be nice to know more about her.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Daniel Waller
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM

Hattie Caroll was my Great Aunt.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest, NAV
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM

Just read this whole ordeal today. I've been a fan of Dylan's for a while now, but only really closely listened to the lyrics of "Hattie" in the movie "I'm Not There". This tempted me to do some research on the subject, which naturally lead to a lot of research. It was needed, as the 60s were a loooooong time before mine.
From the song I assumed this happened decades before the song was written. It was just the sort of feeling I received from it. That's obviously not the case at all, and wasn't even aware segregation was still a "big deal" in the early 60s.

It's very impressive this thread has been going on for more than 6 years as well.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,the canadian
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:27 PM

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE EVENT HAPPENED AT LEAST 60 YEARS AGO. FRIGHTENING. ONE CAN ONLY HOPE ZANTZINGER SOME FINE EVENING MEETS A LARGE, MUSCULAR GREAT-GREAT GRANDSON OF HATTIE CARROLL IN AN SECLUDED PLACE WHO HAPPENS TO BE CARRYING A LARGE CANE.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:59 PM

Just found an interesting article from a 2004 issue of Mother Jones which has updated info on this creep. click here. Thought some would find it of interest.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:01 AM

I have to say, I did not hear the Dylan version first. Blasphemy, I know, but I heard it first by Phranc off her wonderful debut album Folksinger, which hardly gets a mention in music circles these days as does Phranc. Doesn't take anything away from the original version, it lead me to it. But she also Nagouchi, the Pope, able people who park in handicapped parking spaces (seriously) and classist insensitivity and depravity in general. Phranc displays in her version a worn sensitivity as powerful as the anger in Dylan's original version. I'm shocked that Zantzigers profile can't even be found on Wikipedia where you can find endless amounts of info on the likes of Anna Nicole Smith and Crazy Frog.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: balladeer
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:09 AM

Bobby Dylan has certainly made sure the name Zantzinger lives on in infamy. I feel sorry for all those who are still sharing their lives, willingly or unwillingly, with the man who killed Hattie Carroll fifty-odd years ago.


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Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Tom Cooper
Date: 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM

Thanks to today's posting on the great "all things Bob Dylan"site, Expecting Rain.
Refers to quote from Zantzinger calling Bob a so and so SOB. So I googled said Zantzinger and here we have this amazing saga from people who where actually there in'63, those that have met and see him around, people still abused by him and fighting for justice in court.
Thanks to Expecting Rain many will be able to catch up with this amazing true life story. I don't know where I began to think that Dylan had embellished this story.And slurred a good man. There was no good man involved.Just power and corruptible seed.


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