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Politically incorrect national anthems 2

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SharonA 01 Apr 02 - 10:56 AM
SharonA 01 Apr 02 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 02 - 11:14 AM
Mrrzy 01 Apr 02 - 11:20 AM
gnu 01 Apr 02 - 11:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Apr 02 - 11:27 AM
SharonA 01 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 02 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 02 - 11:44 AM
alanabit 01 Apr 02 - 02:30 PM
SharonA 01 Apr 02 - 03:10 PM
Joe_F 01 Apr 02 - 06:34 PM
alanabit 02 Apr 02 - 09:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 02 - 09:25 AM
greg stephens 02 Apr 02 - 06:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 02 - 06:57 PM
Midchuck 02 Apr 02 - 08:01 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: CALEDONIA (Dougie MacLean)
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:56 AM

Part one of this thread is here: Politically incorrect national anthems

The original questions (inspired by a news article about a Canadian senator's proposal to change the English version of "O Canada" to make them less "sexist") were: Is your national anthem politically correct? Has it ever been politically corrected?

To get things started here on Part 2, here's a post from a GUEST who couldn't locate the original thread:


Subject: National Anthems
From: GUEST,Arthur
Date: 30-Mar-02 - 04:36 AM
Shop: I'm Going Home, Freedom Come All Ye, Scots Wha Hae, Few Days, A Man's a Man, Going Home, Caledonia

Hi

I think this topic was discussed a couple of days ago - sorry I'm late! If you're looking for the country with most national anthems, then surely it has to be Scotland. I'm only talking quantity, mind you! It has Scotland the Brave (oh dear) Flower o' Scotland (ok) A Man's a Man (Burns at his magnificent best) Scots Wha Hae (Burns at his Braveheart best) Hamish Henderson's The Freedom Come All Ye (where he actually derides Scottish acts of atrocity done in the King's name) and finally, the least nationalistic national anthem I've ever heard ? this one:

CALEDONIA

I don't know, if you can see
the changes that have come over me
In these last few days, I've been afraid
that I might slip away
'Cause I've been telling old stories singing songs
That made me think about where I came from
And that's the reason why I seem
so far away today.

CHORUS: Let me tell you that I love you,
that I think about you all the time
Caledonia you're calling me, and now I'm going home
For if I should become a stranger
you know that it would make me more than sad
Caledonia's been everything I've ever had

I have moved and I've kept on moving.
Proved the points that I needed proving
Lost the friends that I needed losing;
found others on the way
I have kissed the ladies and left them crying -
stolen dreams, yes, there's no denying
Travelled hard sometimes with conscience flying
somewhere with the wind

Now I'm sitting here, before the fire
the empty room, the forest choir
The flames that couldn't get any higher;
they've withered now they're gone
But I'm steady thinking my way is clear
and I know what I will do tomorrow
When the hands have shaken and the kisses flowed
I will disappear

Dougie MacLean


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:58 AM

Wow, Dougie, that's beautiful, but you're right: I can't see that one being sung at sporting events! Stirs the heart in an entirely different way than the nationalistic songs, eh?

That's one of the objections I have to "America the Beautiful", often proposed as a replacement for the US's "The Star-Spangled Banner". The other objections are: (a) to the references to Judeo-Christian ideology ("God shed his grace on thee", "God mend thine every flaw" etc.); and (b) the idealization of the "pilgrims" beating "a thoroughfare of freedom... across the wilderness" (resulting, unfortunately, in the end of freedom for Native American tribes). This leftover-Manifest-Destiny attitude is one that I also see in "This Land is Your Land": Im afraid that too many people interpret "This land was made for you and me" to mean that it wasn't made for them (whichever ethnic or religious group the singer may consider them to be).

So I find "America the Beautiful" and "This Land is Your Land" to be even less politcally correct than "The Star-Spangled Banner" is said to be.

Sharon


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:14 AM

Sharon, Woody Guthrie wrote "This land" as a sarcastic response to Irving Berlin's "America the Beautiful" Woody meant it to be too political to be an anthem. Very ironic, don't you think.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:20 AM

Having not read the whole entire prior thread (mudcat crime confession here), has anyone raised the possibility that national anthems, by promoting in-group/out-group membership and therefore, inescapably, aggression, are by definition politically incorrect? (running and hiding)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:24 AM

Yup.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:27 AM

And the basic politics of Woody's song is that of being against inequality and the appropriation of what belongs to everyone by the few. "All this land we are standing on belongs to all of us."

Not what you could call "politically correct" in a society that venerates corporate property, worships private wealth, and grovels before those who possess it.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM

Jack's back! I've been missing your wit, sir! Indeed, it's quite ironic that a song Woody wrote as a sarcastic political statement is now sung in all seriousness (well, maybe not all the verses!) by the very groups Woody was targeting! By the way, did you mean to refer to Irving Berlin's "God Bless America"? "America the Beautiful" was written by Katharine Lee Bates (lyrics) and Samuel Ward (tune).

Mrrzy: Yeah, I suppose my thread title is a bit of an oxymoron! LOL!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM

O Canada (polically correct)

Our country is so grand
We're grateful for
Our Conquered native land
With glowing hearts we rise and sing
This boring song again
We are happy cause we must have won
Another hockey game
The leaf on the flag
Is from maple tree
O' Canada, that makes us bland as can be


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:37 AM

Yes I meant God Bless America.

I've been around, but haven't found much worth comment.

THis thread is kinda cool though.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:44 AM

Teach Your Children (national anthem perfect for singing at Olympics)

We who live in the States
Have it so great
You all must be jealous
And you who would criticize
Are full of lies
You are over zealous

Don't you know it is a sin
To let another win
That's why you look at US and grin
And say we cheated


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:30 PM

I think it was Joe Klein's biography that pointed out that Bing Crosby recorded "This Land is Your Land", blithely unaware that it was intended as a Marxist response to "God Bless America". Of course, two crucial verses were missing.I was rather pleased when Bruce Springsteen quite deliberately restored them when he recorded the song a few years back. My favourite Scottish nationalistic song is Bert Jansch's "Caledonia", which is not a nationalistic rant, but a quiet, albeit sentimental assertion of all that the writer likes best about his homeland. I have got a lot of time for that sort of nationalism.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:10 PM

Jack the Sailor: Oh, that "Teach Your Children" parody is priceless! Reminds me of Greg Stephens's post to Part 1 of this thread (21-Mar-02 - 07:21 AM):

"For any country dissatisfied with their currrent anthem (or any newly emerging countries wanting something suitable) I have written one which I think takes care of all necessary sentiments.

'I love (insert name of country),
I love it day and night
We are bloody wonderful
And all the rest are shite' ".


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:34 PM

Amusingly, Guthrie's intent was not obvious enough for the Trotskyists who compiled _The Bosses Song Book_. See "This Land Is Their Land" in the database for their further clarification.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:04 AM

Shows that there are prats on both sides, dosn't it Joe? I always liked the story of Brecht being annoyed about the middle classes missing the point of the "Threepenny Opera", which led to the creation of "Mahagonny" a couple of years later. Some folks have a pretty poor irony detector!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:25 AM

I can't see anything "sarcastic" in Woody's verses. I imagine he meant every word of it, which is the opposite of sarcastic.

Now if he'd sung "God Bless America", that would have been sarcastic...


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:04 PM

If you want hear Woody Guthrie being REALLY politically incorrect, try the Big Grand Coulee Dam. "Now in Washington and Oregon you can hear the factories hum/ Making chrome and making manganese and fine aluminium/ Now roars the Flying Fortress for to fight for Uncle/ From thegreat Columbia river and the big Grand CouleeDam"..destroying vast areas of wilderness,to make bombers??? whoa boy, wash your mouth out Woody.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:57 PM

But surely you can't get more politically correct than that?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems 2
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:01 PM

A lot of people are missing the point that, in the WWII era, the "enemy" was of an extreme right-wing orientation. It was, therefore, proper for a Good Liberal to be patriotic to the point of jingoism. Patriotism only became unpopular among Good Liberals during the cold war era, when the "enemy" was from the far Left. If we get another facistic power arising as a threat, liberals will doubtless become patriotic again, like so many Aspens wafting this way and that with the breeze.

Peter.


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