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BS: Threads started by trolls

McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 02 - 04:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 02 - 04:07 PM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 31 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 31 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM
Clinton Hammond 31 Mar 02 - 04:58 PM
Rick Fielding 31 Mar 02 - 05:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM
Hilary 31 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM
greg stephens 31 Mar 02 - 08:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 02 - 08:49 PM
Rolfyboy6 31 Mar 02 - 08:58 PM
Bobert 31 Mar 02 - 09:31 PM
Coyote Breath 01 Apr 02 - 12:17 AM
Chanteyranger 01 Apr 02 - 04:01 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 01 Apr 02 - 06:46 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 01 Apr 02 - 06:53 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 01 Apr 02 - 07:00 AM
artbrooks 01 Apr 02 - 08:10 AM
Gillie 01 Apr 02 - 08:32 AM
SharonA 01 Apr 02 - 10:00 AM
wysiwyg 01 Apr 02 - 10:41 AM
Pseudolus 01 Apr 02 - 10:44 AM
SINSULL 01 Apr 02 - 10:48 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 01 Apr 02 - 11:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Apr 02 - 11:43 AM
Steve in Idaho 01 Apr 02 - 02:44 PM
Steve-o 01 Apr 02 - 04:12 PM
Celtic Soul 01 Apr 02 - 06:23 PM
Blackcatter 01 Apr 02 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Apr 02 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Apr 02 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Apr 02 - 06:51 PM
InOBU 02 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 02 - 07:10 PM
InOBU 02 Apr 02 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Apr 02 - 07:58 PM
greg stephens 03 Apr 02 - 12:56 PM
Rick Fielding 03 Apr 02 - 02:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Apr 02 - 02:26 PM
Rick Fielding 04 Apr 02 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Apr 02 - 12:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Apr 02 - 01:01 PM
Kim C 04 Apr 02 - 04:25 PM
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Subject: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:07 PM

I think there's room here for threads sometimes about things that happen in the world where people are likely to disagree sharply. I know there are people who would prefer that not to happen, with us sticking to music related threads - but it seems to me that exchanging our views here can help us understand why other people don't always agree with what seems so blindingly obvious to us. And that makes it worth doing.

But, all too often, instead we get threads opened by people who post in a way that is clearly intended to generate heat rather than light. I'm not going to quote the examples, but the very GUEST names adopted by the people concerned, and the opening posts they use are clear enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:07 PM

It's easy enough to stay out of such threads, and I generally do these days. But I wish that there was a way of avoiding that kind of stuff, which gets in the way of real discussion, however heated that might be.

Cutting out the ability of GUESTS to start threads at all would of course be one way. And recently enough it looked as if that was what Max had determined should happen. But there are drawbacks to that - and in any case you don't have to be a GUEST to do that kind of thing.

So how about this for a suggestion? If someone opens up what is clearly tailored to be a hate-thread, but it's about something you want to discuss, don't respond in that thread, open up a new thread on the same topic instead. (And it's what happens already sometimes of course. We are learning how to avoid the traps set for us by trolls.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM

Some threads I just choose to ignore. It all depends. You can't make one rule that will cover it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM

Hi, Kevin:

Sounds like a good idea to me. I kinda got a kick out of the goofy wandering that happened in the thread started recently. If the asides and humor, totally unrelated to the topic had generated enough steam, it would have been a good idea to start a new thread. At least the Troll under the cyber Bridge couldn't have had a lot of satisfaction by the responses.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM

Can't you just ignore the troll element in a thread anyway, McGrath? I find this constant obsession with trolls utterly puerile. The inference is that we are all automatically pre-programmed to retaliate, and that when we do, it's the troll's fault.

(Preventing guests from creating threads would of course remove a lot of the value of this place to those who may have legitimate reason for not becoming members. And many of the best threads would never have happened under such a rediculous regime.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:58 PM

Ya know... this kind of stuff is getting to be it's own kind of mudcat spam these days... Everybody has thier own little 'solution' to the 'problems' of Mudcat... And feels obligated to share 'em with everyone else...

May as well just keep posting to the "Have you ever played a ..." crap...

It's not rocket science this place... just come here, do yer thing, and take away from it what ever you want...


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:25 PM

Have to agree with Fionn here. If I went with my immediate insticts everytime I saw a thread (or even a remark) that was either mean-spirited, or just downright dumb, I'd be spending Most of my mudcat time responding. I think quite a few do this, simply to let others KNOW that they've been annoyed. T'ain't neccessary. If a dumb thread appears...the folks YOU care about DO know. Leave it be.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM

Agreed. Ignore them. But sometimes a thread is started up in a nasty way, but it's about something concerning which people want to exchange views; my suggestion was for a way of doing that which doesn't involve getting into the game of responding and reinforcing the stuff that is better ignored.

I agree that the person originating a thread doesn't control how it develops; the example Jerry gives shows how that can be a way of dealing creatively with this kind of thing, by drifting the thread in a more pleasant direction. But so long as a thread deals with the issues raised by the person starting it, its agenda is liable in some ways to be determined by that initial thread.

"If I wanted to get there, I wouldn't start from here" may not be the advice for a traveller on the road - but it can be a good advice when it comes to exploring differences of opinion.

Rocket science? That's relatively straightforward compared to human communication.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Hilary
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM

I think there is something in what MGrath said, a recent thread raised a couple of issues I felt were worth exploring - but the initial posting was framed in such a vitriolic way that I didn't wish to post to that thread.

Maybe it's cutting off our noses to spoil our face to completely ignore issues raised if the manner is unpleasant ????? & just maybe troll type posts will fall off the bottom of the page ??????

Hilary


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:03 PM

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me". well, thats bollocks ,of course words can be incredibly hurtful, but you know what I mean Mr McGrath. some people may get incandescent about a certain person from Baltimore or the sanctity of Lady Di but we're mostly grownups arent we, we can be amused, reply, ignore as we wish. Do we really need rules or controllers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:49 PM

I think we do need rules, but we can do without rulers.

When I play a musical instrument I do it applying all kinds of rules that I've acquired - rules I've learnt from other people, or learnt from practice. But noone is going to tell me what to do and what not to do in a controlling way.

We pass on wrinkles to each other about playing music, stuff we've learnt works. That's different from laying down the law.

That's more or less the same way the Mudcat works a lot of the time. I was making a suggestion in this thread, not attempting to formulate a commandment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:58 PM

When the trolls flame it's time for discussions of armadillos, Toto and the ruby slippers, William Shatner, and other paradigms (pair of dimes?) of existence. Ferrets and weasels are good topics too. Oh and there's Patsy Cline's weight problem too. And Scottish football.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:31 PM

That's pretty heavy stuff, Rolfy, but you're right. There's an endless list of topics, both musical and not and some kind of in the middle, open for discussion.

No one is holding a gun to anyone's head makin' 'em either open, or respond, to any particular thread.

Did I ever tell you my weasel story? Well, it was back, oh, around 1970 and My roomnate Butch had his girlfriend move in and she had this pet weas..... nevermind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:17 AM

It took me a while to figure out just what a troll was all about. I found this out on another site and I was stunned by the incredibly bad form of "communication" such messaging represents.

Maybe when something like that happens just pointing out that it is troll bait would be enough.

I am now convinced that there are people (and I use that term advisedly) who do NOTHING but surf about looking for sites to stir stuff up at. (wooo Miss Ooley would scold me for THAT sentence).

At the "site of my awakening" the "message" was racist and downright evil. It could and should have been avoided but there were those who rose to the bait and there ended up hundreds of replies posted which meant that the original foul contact was perpetuated.

but didn't some of us take a "don't rise to the bait" pledge recently?

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:01 AM

Sounds like a good suggestion to me, McGrath. We can starve the trolls AND be able to put in our two cents worth on topics that interest us. How many of us (many, I suspect) have abided by the "don't respond to trolls" admonishment, but at the same time would like to say something about the topic at hand? Maybe this is a way. Worth a try, at least.

chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:46 AM

What is a troll and a flame starter


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:53 AM

I don't know about you lot, but I can only understand English and none of this 'troll' business, that some of you talk.

It's like a strange language that you all speak.

It's sounds as if you all belong to a secret club.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 07:00 AM

I'm still with you McGrath. When a valid topic appears in a troll thread, let's pull it out and start a new thread. No sense having it get lost because the title of the thread is intentionally offensive.

Think I'll start a new thread...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:10 AM

Tam, a "Troll" and a "Troll Starter" are much the same thing: a person who starts a thread (message group) with a comment that is intended to incite riot, or who inserts such a comment into an existing thread. "Troll" is also used to refer to the thread itself. It isn't the content of the message that makes it a troll, but rather the intention of the individual. Sometimes trolls aren't recognized for what they are, and sometimes people respond to inflamatory comments as though they were trolls when they actually represent an individual's real opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Gillie
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:32 AM

I heartly agree with the motion that new threads of similar ilk should be started, when trolls start to participate in them.

There have been a few threads recently to which I would have liked to contributed, only I have been stopped by the sensless comments of trolls.

Let's keep Mudcat on an up-beat note and not let it be dragged down by responding to inflammatory comments by the trolls!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:00 AM

Kevin (McGrath): I like your idea, too. A question: would you recommend that the starter of the new thread insert a link to it in the flame-thread, to advise people who want to discuss the subject seriously that they should do so on the non-flame-thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:41 AM

Kevin, you know I love you dearly. That being said, here's how I see this.

This has been tried in the past and the trolls often just followed into the new thread, linked or not. And sometimes it would spark off a new round of trolling, in reaction to the effort to control what the troll had originally started.

The flaw in the logic of this apparently-excellent idea is that, whatever one attempts, a troll or flame episode can't be controlled. When we think we can, we are doing wishful thinking. The reality of Mudcat is simply that each person is responsible for posting (or not posting) each and every time we post (or do not post). The constant influx of new members and other realities of Life at Mudcat mitigate against most otherwise-reasonable solutions-- because the medium itself defies using solutions that evolved in other settings, other media.

When we try to apply what we have learned in other setting, other media, in the internet, it tends to be less than accurate and less than effective.

So-- nice try, and by all means try it and see what happens-- but sometimes it will work and sometimes it will not-- no matter how you do it, you will not actually be controlling what occurs, although it may seem to you like you have nade a difference until it slips out of control again....

The point is, there are some things beyond our control we just have to live with, and let go.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:44 AM

The problem is, trolls are getting better and better at what they do. I think there are a lot of good answers to the question, start a new thread, ignore them, count to ten and sometimes, yes sometimes it gets to us so much that we just HAVE to respond. To each their own. 99.9% of the time I will ignore but if your choice is to start a new thread or even respond in the same thread, God bless ya. I appreciate McGrath's suggestion and will certainly consider it next time around. I feel that the trolls truely win when the community gets into an argument over what to do about the trolls. If I wanted to stir things up, I would be MOST happy when the infighting started.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:48 AM

With great difficulty, I do not participate in most of the Troll threads. Instead I PM the person being ridiculed/attacked/whatever with a simple message of support. Occasionally I go for the bait and always regret it. Trolls are so much better at insults and cruelty as well as leading a thread astray than most of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:19 AM

I understand now

Thankyou


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:43 AM

I'm with Susan on there being no simple ways of solving problems permanently. Guitars don't stay in tune, but that's no reason not to tune them up every now and again.

The reason I put up the suggestion was that I'd found myself wanting to say something about a particular topic, but realising that if I did so in that thread it would keep it alive when it would be better dropped out of sight.

And then I saw another thread started in a trolling fashion, and perhaps by chance, perhaps intentionally, someone had started a separate thread on the same topic which didn't have that trolling intent and impact. And I thoiught, that's not a bad idea.

I'd be against having anything which sets out to challenge the troll, such as a link to a new thread. On balance I think that would just muddy the water, and any direct challenge is probably seen as a reward, sinc eit is a response.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:44 PM

The other point is that some of us slow learners take a bit to figure it out. It's called a learning curve. As humans we all have it, learning curves, and as we sort things out we change how we do business. I enjoy the no rules free for all we have here. I like the Trolls - they get a need met here and the rest of us get to choose whether we accelerate or decelerate the particular thread.

I've seen Joe Offer and Max both ask folks to not respond to threads and didn't stop a thing. PMs seem to work for me also. Keeps it personal and on the up and up with what I want to say.

Cool beans -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Steve-o
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:12 PM

Hillary....what a great mixed metaphor, or missed metaphor, or..whaaa???.."cutting off our noses to spoil our face".


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:23 PM

It's a "manage your own time here" sort of thing in my mind. For me, if I don't want to be a part of something, I'm not.

Responding to trolls is a lot like putting out a fire with gasoline.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Blackcatter
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:55 PM

I know,

Maybe you can get the trolls both threads so that it will save time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:32 PM

to troll or not to troll that is the question


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:33 PM

i troll therefore i am


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:51 PM

McGrath of H (hell) also is a troll.

This reminds me of the old "Sputnik Joke."

On the playground children would tell other children:

"Did you hear that the Russians have launched a new satilite? Every time it goes over a genius they beam down two beeps, everytime it goes over an average person they beam down one, everytime it goes over a retard it does nothing. Have you heard it?"

Sucker Reply - "No"

Instigator replies, "Gee, I'm sorry."

Mr. McGrath you have been around long enough to know better!

The more I drop by ....the more this reminds me of the film "Ground Hog Day." We are doomed to repeat our own mistakes until we recognize them


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM

Hi Garg: I enjoyed your Troll one liners... here is another... How many trolls does it take to change a light bulb? Well, trolls don't change light bulbs, they make a comment, then EVERYone else changes the bulb? eh? Sometimes light results!
Cheers old goyle!
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:10 PM

My understanding of trolldom is that a troll is someone who doesn't actually care one way or another about what they are saying, they just want to stir othere people up and see them responding. A bit like someone who makes a hoax call to the fire service.

Gargoyle doesn't strike me as falling within this definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:27 PM

I agree McGrath, I actually find a good deal of his posts thoughtful, though sometimes less than polite, but, I expect, he actually cares about a lot of which he comments. Cheers, ... PS I'm going to PM you about a wee trip to the firehouse today... Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:58 PM

From my current point of view, the MudCat is like a fly-strip hanging from the ceiling of cyber-space.

The dead flies are annoying and "un-esthetic" (not to mention un-anit-septic) but the MudCat is performing a valuable "service" to the "cyber-community."

You will notice:
MudCat has few "links" pointing to other sites.
Several - viable - legitimate sites point to MudCat
Trolls congregate within MC because it is downhill from the flush of other sites.

This is good. The best rubarb patch I ever saw .... was in Maine.... and it grew over the cess-pool.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 12:56 PM

The word "troll" seems to generate heat in itsef,possibly because it refers to a method of bait-fishing and also a nasty thing thatlurks under bridges; and people seem to use the word sometimes with a flavour of one original meaning, and sometimes with the other. I am still a little mystified with these sort of discussions, but I've only been visiting for a month; does it all become clear eventually? I have identified some seriously barmy nasty postings.Are they trolls? Or are they just people I violently disagree with? And, frankly, does it matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 02:15 PM

Hi Greg. I've been around for four years now, and have seen darn near everything. I'm an 'information junkie' and have long been a 'speed reader' (which would be a severe shock to all the teachers who gave up on me in high school). I think "Trolls" absolutely run the gamut from seriously psychotic loners to superannuated "kid" pranksters. In between, there are folks who are pissed at the direction their favourite forum is going, BUT (perhaps to their embarrassment) DO feel that they've become part of this community, so they 'go underground' when they're really ticked.

Nasty, racist, and inflammatory crap obviously DOESN'T help the forum's profile...but neither do countless totally silly threads either. As a study of 'folks period', Mudcat has been astonishing to me...and still one hell of a treat. Yeah, I'd like to discuss early recorded Folk, Jazz and blues, with a few more folks who are as obsessed as I am...but there's still a few at Mudcat, and I've exchanged e-mails with the ones who've moved on.

Every week (because of who 'lives here' AND 'who drops by') I've found at least one thread that captures me completely (have you checked out the "kid" Ory thread?) and that's enough for it to be 'serious' in my book.

As far as the trolls? Wish they weren't there...but they WILL be...so it doesn't matter that much to me.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 02:26 PM

"The Mudcat has few links pointing to other sites" That's strange - on my screen there's a little button up the top saying "links" - and it's got a pretty impressive collection of musical links in it. And most threads turn up a few links in the course of conversation, sometime brilliant ones like this recent one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:42 AM

Couldn't agree with you more McGrath ('bout the old time 78s), so I'll continue on my own personal quest to get everyone with an IQ over fifty to check out my fave.

paradiddle here

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:10 PM

My sincere apologies!

That is a most impressive set of links - the best collection on folk around. I have a lot of exploring ahead.

Thank you Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:01 PM

Now that looks a superb site Rick - the frustrating thing is that, when I click on the RealAudio link, it comes up with an error message about "network problems". Still, I've bookmarked it, and I'll have another go later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Threads started by trolls
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:25 PM

I was accused of trolling once in another forum, and I can honestly tell you that was NOT my intent. That is not what I do. Sometimes, granted, it's pretty obvious when somebody just wants to start some shit. Other times, someone may make a comment that someone else perceives in some way other than how it was meant.

However, I think we had great fun with the old Eminem thread. ;-)


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Mudcat time: 28 March 2:27 PM EDT

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