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BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Related threads:
Songs of the 1916 Easter Rising (56)
BS: The Irish Easter Rising (11)


GUEST,Desi C 24 Mar 15 - 05:06 AM
mayomick 24 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM
Murpholly 24 Mar 15 - 07:09 AM
JenBurdoo 25 Mar 15 - 02:09 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 03:27 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 03:28 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 15 - 05:16 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 05:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Mar 15 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 15 - 06:06 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 25 Mar 15 - 11:02 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 25 Mar 15 - 12:22 PM
The Sandman 25 Mar 15 - 12:32 PM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 12:37 PM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 01:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM
Thompson 03 Apr 16 - 09:47 AM
Harry Rivers 11 Apr 16 - 02:29 AM
LadyJean 11 Apr 16 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Desi C 14 Apr 16 - 06:47 AM
Joe Offer 14 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 16 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Pat 'de Verse' Burke 15 Apr 16 - 03:39 PM
AmyLove 15 Apr 16 - 10:28 PM
Pat deVerse 16 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM
FreddyHeadey 16 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 16 - 10:54 AM
Thompson 16 Apr 16 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 16 - 12:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 03:40 AM
Thompson 17 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 05:46 AM
Teribus 17 Apr 16 - 06:25 AM
FreddyHeadey 17 Apr 16 - 06:30 AM
Thompson 17 Apr 16 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM
Thompson 17 Apr 16 - 07:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 09:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 05:06 AM

There's a great misconception that the IRA staged the Easter rising, wrong. It was the Irish National Brotherhood. The IRA at that time was actually a Pacifist org. They were asked to support it by the Brotherhood but refused. So against it they even took out an ad in TheDublin Post waring their members not to take part! Even more remarkable is the fact that the neither the British or the Post office seemed to read the paper, as they were still un prepared on the 16th! It was a vry ill fated if brave attempt. In fact such was the lack of popular support for the Brotherhood that when they were finally led away as prisoners they were booed and jeered by the crowds!
Had the British NOT xecuted the leaders it would surely have gone down as just another failed uprising, but the executions finally stirred the Irish public out of their submissivness and into action, even the IRA were finally moved to arms
May they rest i peace. 'Beware The Risen Few'


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM

You're mixing up Sinn Fein, the IRA and the IRB , Desi. The IRA was never a pacifist organization. Sinn Fein had pacifists in it but was never a pacifist organization (nor a republican one for that matter -Arthur Griffith its founder was a monarchist ). The IRA didn't exist in 1916 , the IRB from which the IRA was formed and the Irish Citizens Army did the fighting.

An interesting Orange song whose proud, all-Ireland dimension would make any modern Orangeman who was capable of being embarrassed blush. What's mystery , Mr Peasant other than the"dismal shade" of self-induced ignorance? Research the song and you'll find it perfectly explainable , I'm sure!

By the way re the Behan joke - there are no steps into the GPO .


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Murpholly
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 07:09 AM

G.P.O. in Dublin was re-built and is still operational as Major Post Office and as a tourist focal point. Great boards round the waiting areas depict various happenings of the Rising almost like stations of the cross!!! Will be interested to know which date they celebrate next year - Easter - or the actual date which is different with the changing dates of Easter. On last visit to Glasnevin they had almost finished the clearing up, tidying and rebuilding ready for the Centenary. Should be interesting times.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 02:09 AM

My dad and I visited the GPO in Dublin last year. Quite interesting. There's a video with actors playing the roles of postal employees and their reactions to the Rising, and also some good dioramas. Unrelated to the Rising is a mini-museum of postal history. Outside is a giant metal spire which stands in place of Nelson's Column and is a lot less impressive - none of the locals we met had anything complimentary to say about it.

We also spent a couple hours in a nearby bar named for one of the ringleaders (Can't remember which - Connolly?) who had spent much of his time there before the war.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 03:27 AM

Are all the posters on this thread drunk?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 03:28 AM

Incidentally, the term "ringleaders" for the leaders of the Rising is about as acceptable as if I were to refer to George Washington as "one of the ringleaders" of the American Rising.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:09 AM

Well, the lads didn't actually get off the ferry. They'd come over some months before and been living at Larkfield, a farm owned by Joseph Plunkett's family, and training there. George Plunkett at their head, they marched down to the Kimmage tram stop and piled on to the first tram, and George said "Fifty-two tuppenny tickets to the city centre please".

The songs that were most sung during the Rising were Step Together - always used as a marching song before the Rising while on exercises - and The Soldier's Song, now in translation our national anthem, Amhrán na bhFíann.

Incidentally, something that isn't often understood in modern times when people have more ready cash and guns are more common: the Volunteers and Citizen Army were very sparsely armed, and had very little ammunition. This was a couple of thousand men and women with shotguns and heavy Boer War era rifles and a few revolvers, and one or two with actual machine guns, and some even with old or homemade pikes and household implements, up against the most modern army in the world, armed with the most modern weapons and heavy artillery. The defenders were fighting through their home city; the attackers in many cases thought they were at the front in France, and were baffled by everyone knowing English.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:16 AM

Thanks for that T
One of the most memorable parts of Coffey's book is the description of the survivors of the uprising being brought out of the GPO and being set on by Dublin 'Shawlies' demanding, "why aren't you supporting our lads in the trenches".
It took the brutality of unnecessary, hastily carried out executions to turn what was widely regarded as a somewhat eccentric incident into a revolution.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:21 AM

That's the legend all right; but funnily enough, some witness statements are now surfacing, including one by a Canadian journalist, saying that in many parts of Dublin people supported the rebels.
Even this is surprising. Can you imagine the state of terror of the people of a city that is under military occupation and curfew, where you couldn't walk through town without showing a military-granted pass to soldiers of doubtful stability at every barricade, and where every day the intellectuals of the country are being shot after hasty trials of doubtful legality?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:54 AM

during war and revolution legality is never really an issue - all kinds of stuff goes on.

shooting people in cold blood is a shit thing to do, whatever the circumstances. its like the hanging of Casement. legally maybe they had the right - but morally, what a vile act!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 06:06 AM

"That's the legend all right; "
Coffey gaave his source for the eye witness statement.
There is no doubt that there was support throughout Ireland, but a degree of confusion surrounding the attempted calling of of the uprising byy one leader let to a great deal of confusion as to how much
My father's brother-in-law was a runner for Collins later on - wish I'd spent more time with him while he was still living
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 08:27 AM

Yes, Jim, I'm not saying it didn't happen - sorry, I should have phrased it more clearly - but the legend has grown up (or has been deliberately built) that this was the universal reaction, when it was not.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 11:02 AM

It's amazing the things you end up wishing you'd done something about at the time.

When I was an apprentice I went out on a job with my foreman. On the way back he announced that he was going to call in on an old farmer he knew, an ex-IRA man., who'd fought in the war of independence. I asked if the guy was Irish and my foreman said "No. He's English, but he got fed up with the dirty end of the stick that the Irish were getting and he decided to go over there and lend them a hand."

I was extremely shy and naive in those days, and I'd never heard of oral history. In fact, I don't think it even existed as a recognised discipline that far back, so I never did anything about it.

A few years later, this old bloke's farm was bulldozed to make room for a motorway and his memories of the troubles are now lying in a grave somewhere. Sad.

Some years later I was working in a civil engineering site office, along with a Mexican draughtsman called Eduardo. Eduardo hated General Franco, who at that time was coming to the end of his reign as Spain's only fascist dictator.

When I asked why, he explained that his father had been the Spanish Prime Minister at the time of Franco's coup, and that was why he and the rest of the family had ended up in Mexico. Unfortunately, with work commitments and whatnot, I never got the chance to follow up that conversation. But who knows what historical nuggets might have been uncovered.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 11:57 AM

That farmer might have been one of the Liverpool Lambs, aka George's Lambs, who were staying at Larkfield before the Rising. They were mostly fellows of Irish parentage or nationality who went to Ireland to a) avoid conscription into the butchery of World War I and b) joined up to free Ireland from British occupation.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:22 PM

Thompson. As a native of Merseyside, I'm suprised that I've never come across the Liverpool Lambs before. Could you elucidate further?

I did of course do a Google search, but all that came up was a reference to Larry Lamb. Oh hell.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:32 PM

Tom Barry, may have never taken part in the ester rising, at the time he was being trained by the British Army, IMO he was one of the most important people in the guerilla warfare against Britain.
I would rather have Tom Barry on my side, than people who get excited about the correct spelling of James Connolly.
Tom Barry one of irelands greatest patriots not like the wanker enda kenny


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:37 PM

The Liverpool Lambs was the nickname of the lads who came over from Liverpool and other places and were staying in Larkfield (sleeping in the barn and preparing a few little bombs and things for the coming Rising). They stayed there for six weeks or so, then got on the tram with George Plunkett, got off in O'Connell Street, formed up, marched to the GPO and on George's call of "LEFT - into the GPO - Charge!" they charged in, told everyone to get out, broke the windows and sandbagged them to prop their guns, and that was the start of the Rising. I think they may have been the first in; not sure about that, though.
In Jack Plunkett's witness statement to the Bureau of Military History he makes reference to them. (Jack was the youngest of the three Plunkett brothers; he was 18 during the Rising.)


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 01:03 PM

If you look for 'Liverpool' in that Bureau of Military History search you'll find names that will lead you to other names, GSS.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM

This BBC TV programme also questions the idea that Home Rule was advanced at all by those acts of violence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075f1f2


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM

"In 1916, at the height of WW1, armed insurgents rose up against the British in Dublin, the empire's second city. Using secret documents, cabinet papers, intelligence reports, military orders, diaries and letters, Michael Portillo pieces together the story of this uprising from the British point of view.

Was Dublin just another battle at a time of war where military justice was immediate and brutal or, by their actions, did the British men who wrote these documents hasten the end of an empire? Did an unlikely band of Irish rebels, led by playwrights and poets, do more to advance the cause of Irish freedom in five days than nationalist politicians had done in the previous 50 years, or did they damage the cause and condemn the island to a history of violence? Michael looks for the answers. This is the story of Ireland's Easter Rising as told by British politicians, soldiers, spies and bureaucrats."


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 09:47 AM

This thread seems to be full of weasel words - "uprising" rather than Rising, "ringleaders" - and of course the ubiquitous "would have" assumptions by telepathic posters who possess time machines leading to alternate universes.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 02:29 AM

The Guardian newspaper, a couple of weeks ago, carried a number of essays by Irish writers on the Easter Rising.

I think Glenn Patterson's reflects my own view; if only I could have put it so beautifully:

"As a rule, I am wary of small numbers of men and women taking up arms in the name of the People, especially when they start invoking God. Yet I like Ireland. I feel at home in every part of it, south as well as north. I like the people, lower case: those born here and the increasing numbers who choose to live here. The thought that any part of what I like might have been brought into being by the women and men who rose on Easter Monday a century ago is, to say the least, paradoxical.

I am reminded of Sherwood Anderson's "The Book of the Grotesque" (I live in Belfast: it's never far from my mind), which describes a world full of beautiful truths to live by and the paradox whereby a person snatching up one of those truths and trying to make it his own becomes a grotesque, and the truth so embraced a falsehood.

There is much that is beautiful in the language of the 1916 Proclamation, and much that is grotesque in what it has been used (and is still being used by some) to justify, although even within Ireland it certainly doesn't have a monopoly on that. We seriously fucked up over the Rising's golden jubilee, or "they" did (I was four, it's one of the last things of which I can truly say I am absolved): the celebrations in the south and, more lethally, the overreaction in the north. I hope this time round all who wish to remember remember, and are allowed to remember, with dignity and magnanimity.

Then maybe once this and the other forthcoming centenaries are over – the clocks have been definitively reset, from 1916 to 2016 (or 2023) – we could all try squeezing our truths a little less tight."

They can all be read here:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/26/easter-rising-100-years-on-a-terrible-beauty-is-born

Best wishes,
Harry


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 08:01 PM

There will be a commemoration of the Easter Rising here in Pittsburgh.
My dad was in Ireland, back in the 30s. He went to a movie one night and was impressed when the entire audience stood and belted their new naitonal anthem.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 06:47 AM

Why would other countries be comemorating a purely Irish rebellion!?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM

Hi, Desi - most of the Irish live outside Ireland, don't they? A huge number of Americans claim Irish ancestry.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM

Sorry to digress Email not linking Hi, hope your well, Would you do me a favour and send me a good photo of the LP cover of 1070 Scotia Folk, I was never out of the pub then and want to see who I know, I wasn't there that day, nae luck!!! Any other pics too if your wife has any, thank you for taking the time to do that, Cheers Geraldine Kerlin, as I was then, Take Care


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 11:27 AM

Sorry email- g.baird2@ntlworld.com   Geraldine


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Subject: New Compositions on the 1916 Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Pat 'de Verse' Burke
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:39 PM

I've written one myself, 'The Murder of Skeffy', on the killing of pacifist Francis Sheehy Skeffington by Capt. Bowen Colthurst during the Rising. I should be singing it at the 1916 Song Project Concert at Lexicon Library Dún Laoghaire on Fri 22 April. I wasn't one of the original singer/song writers chosen, but I'm privileged and honoured to perform it in my home town of Dún Laoghaire. All the 1916 Song Project nights should be great occasions, so get to one if you can!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: AmyLove
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 10:28 PM

A link to the Clare songs from the Carroll Mackenzie Collection (lyrics and recordings, among other things) which Jim Carroll mentioned:

Singers and Songs of County Clare from the Carroll Mackenzie Collection


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Subject: Easter Rising (1916 Song Project)
From: Pat deVerse
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM

Just finished watching a few video clips from last night's 1916 Song Project Concert at NLI, Dublin. Excellent songs. I loved Aileen Lambert's song...very moving. Also impressed by Paul O'Reilly's marching ballad. Good old Wexford, they never let us down. One of the few places outside of Dublin who rose at Easter 1916, and the 'Flame of '98' still sparks!

Unfortunately, I couldn't make it last ev. But am looking forward to the next night at Lexicon Dún Laoghaire on April 22.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM

Pat deVerse" a few video clips from last night's 1916 Song Project "

Would those be private or do you have a www link ?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 10:54 AM

One of the few places outside of Dublin who rose at Easter 1916,

How many rose in Dublin?
Dubliners spat on them.
How many Dubliners died because of them?
Any of the leaders ever seek an actual vote?
Only one did. Stood once as a councillor and came last.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 12:11 PM

How many rose in Dublin: around 1,500 armed with Franco-Prussian War era Mausers and some shotguns and handguns and a few homemade grenades, versus 30,000 British soldiers with Enfield rifles, machine guns, artillery and all the weaponry of the largest empire of the time.
Dubliners - some Dubliners - spat on them at the time; less than a month later Dublin had utterly reversed its attitude.
How many Dubliners died because of them: most of the civilians who died were killed by British sniper fire and artillery.
Any of the leaders ever seek an actual vote: James Connolly stood for the council (he was the first, and probably the only person to use election posters in Yiddish. Most of the leaders would not have stood for election to a British parliament; why should they?
However, two years after the Rising, the party that grew out of it swept all other parties away in the 1918 election.
The purpose of the Rising was to hold the city in arms for a week - even three days, on the precedent of the last war, would legally gain those seeking Irish independence a place at the Peace Conference that followed the European war.
The result of the Rising was to pull on a thread that unravelled the British Empire, the largest, most powerful empire that ever existed, which at that time covered one-fifth of the world and ruled over a quarter of the world's people.
One of the leaders of the Rising taught and three of the leaders of the Rising radicalised some of the great revolutionaries of India, who would take their example and free their country from colonisation.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 12:48 PM

Exactly as Thomson just said.
The opposition to the uprising melted away immediately the British began to execute the leaders in their usually brutish manner.
In 1918, Britain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription in Ireland and totally failed to do so because of the opposition that had built up - had they been successful, the Irish population would have been decimated, leaving the country untenable.
"did they damage the cause and condemn the island to a history of violence?"
Meant to respond to this point earlier.
Any violence that took place following Easter Week and independence can be laid at the door of the British forcing through partition, the deliberate creation of a Protestant State in the North in which the Catholic third minority were second class citizens, politically and economically - the regular Anti-Catholic riots bore witness to who actually caused the violence.
The typically brutal response to peaceful Civil Rights Protests set into motion 'The Troubles' that we all saw and in some cases experienced in the following years.
Britain has never come to terms with their own role in Ireland
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM

Home rule had already been agreed.
It was not brought forward by one day.
The killing was all for nothing. There could have been a peaceful transition and no civil war.
The fools, the fools.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 03:40 AM

Home Rule had already been agreed.
All tht killing did not advance it by a single day.
There would have been a peaceful transition, and no civil war saving thousands more Irish lives.

This should just be about the music.
Make your political points below where they can be answered properly


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM

Home Rule wasn't about independence. The Home Rule Act 1914 allowed Ireland to have a kind of playtime parliament (while still sending a few MPs to the British parliament), but every decision could be overruled by the Lord Lieutenant.

There's been a vigorous attempt to conflate Home Rule with independence, but they were not at all the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 05:06 AM

"Home Rule had already been agreed."
No it had not - it was nowhere near agreed in the period after the war ended.
If you read your history, you will find the the Home Rule Bill was defeated yet again and in Jully, 1914, King George took it on himself to call a meeting of all the Irish Parliamentarians at Buckingham Palace to see if an alternative should be reached - There was no guarantee that the conclusions would be adhered to.
No attempts were made to push through the Home Rule Bill following the end of the War and the brutality shown by the British both towards the rebels and in letting loose the Black and Tan and Auxie thugs on the Irish people as a whole led to the War of Independence which eventually brought about a treaty of sorts.
The greatest advance to Independence was probably inadvertently the result of Britain's violent response to Irish opposition.
That violence was continued in newly formed Northern Ireland by the new Protestant Government, this time aimed at the Catholic minority.
It continued right up to the 1960s, when it brought about a backlash - leading to the troubles.
You need to listen to what is being said here at present, even by those who weren't fully in support of the Rising - forget Michael Portaloo.
"This should just be about the music."
THis thread is entitled @The Easter Rising" - it was a political and historical event and those of us who wish to are quite entitled to discuss it in those terms
You were quite happy to be part of a political discussion until you painted yourself into a corner.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 05:46 AM

It's quite often forgotten the first act of military aggression against Home Rule took place at The Curragh Camp in Kildare on 20 March 1914, in sopport of the Northern Ireland Unionists, instigted by Sir Edward Carson - no arrests, no courts martials, no resignations and certainly no executions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 06:25 AM

the first act of military aggression against Home Rule took place at The Curragh Camp in Kildare on 20 March 1914, in sopport of the Northern Ireland Unionists, instigted by Sir Edward Carson - no arrests, no courts martials, no resignations and certainly no executions.

What military aggression?

As far as I am aware Army Officers submitting their resignations is not nor ever has been illegal so why should there have been any executions? What would the charge have been?

As for there being no resignations the Secretary of State for War J.E.B. Seely and the CIGS (professional head of the Army) Sir John French were forced to resign as was the Adjutant-General Spencer Ewart - three pretty senior scalps there Jom.

No idea where Thompson gets his figure of 30,000 British troops from, the actual number was 16,000 and at the start in Dublin if his figure of 1,500 volunteers is correct, then they outnumbered the forces available to the crown at the start by about 300 men, and vast bulk of the weaponry available to the greatest empire on earth in 1916 was directed elsewhere. Also Thompson it was the crushing cost of fighting the First World War that sounded the death knell of the British Empire and it was the cost of fighting the Second World War that hammered the nails into the coffin - in both those conflicts the Irish Nationalists sided with Germany (Understandable during WWI, unconscionably during WWII).


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 06:30 AM

" "This should just be about the music."
JC "THis thread is entitled "The Easter Rising" - it was a political and historical event and those of us who wish to are quite entitled to discuss it in those terms" "

I was going to argue with JC but I reread the OP. It doesn't mention music.
"Apart from Ireland will there any other countries that will be holding commemoration ceremonies for the '16 Rising?"

I'd still prefer to read the politics in BS.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 06:51 AM

Here's a piece about the Curragh Incident. Basically, the officer class of the British Army in Ireland said they would resign rather than fire on Unionists if those Unionists took military action when Home Rule was brought in.

The 30,000 British troops included those rushed in during the Rising, rather than only those present in Ireland at its start. And yes, Teribus you're right about the artillery being needed in France (if, of course, you think that the killing in France was right); Asquith's Liberal government fell in 1915 in a scandal over the lack of artillery shells available in France (the 'Shell Crisis') and he was left heading a cobbled-together coalition dominated by Ulster Unionists. So there was anger in Britain as well as in Ireland over the artillery used to destroy Dublin, though for different reasons.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM

"I'd still prefer to read the politics in BS."
It was the choice of them in charge to put it in this section, but even so, the logic of your argument is that we can never discus the political aspects of political songs in this section (I see there's another thread active on the subject at present).
I suggest you make a list of all the songs you will never be able to discuss on the music section - hundreds of contemporary songs, songs about strikes past and present,, Jacobite songs, eviction, transportation for poaching rising from the enclosures, songs of mutinies like The Sea Martyrs, Death of Parker, Machine Breakers.....
the list is endless.
If this forum had no BS section, all these hundreds of songs would be no-go areas.
The first earliest songs in the English language are political and are to be found in Thomas Wright's 'The Political Songs of England - from John to Edward II (in English and Latin)
"three pretty senior scalps there Jom."
"J.E.B. Seely"
As General Jack Seely, he led one of the last great cavalry charges in history at the Battle of Moreuil Wood on his war horse Warrior in March 1918
"Spencer Ewart"
He was appointed General Officer Commanding Scottish Command in 1914, a post he held until 1918: he retired in 1920.
"General John French"
We are all aware that he was deptived of taking part in WW1 - what a great loss to the war effort eh?
How sad to have ruined such promising military careers.
Give us a break Terrytoon – I meant real, forced resignations for acts of mutiny, not crowd-pleasing phoney ones.
The Government of the day put the Curragh Mutiny down to "a misunderstanding"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 07:27 AM

To clarify: the Curragh Incident wasn't a mutiny - it was a rebellion - the officers were saying that they would not defend their government from an attack by the Unionists.

Further on the dismantling of the British Empire: of course the deaths of huge numbers of the British ruling class and even huger numbers of its citizens (not to mention its subjects in the colonies; for instance, 1.2 million Arabs fought in the British Army) was part of the reason that the empire ceased to be, but the Rising began a great resistance in its colonies. Not to mention that several of those involved in the Indian revolution, including President VV Giri, were taught by Thomas MacDonagh in University College Dublin, and were influenced by him and by James Connolly and PH Pearse.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM

If you read your history, you will find the the Home Rule Bill was defeated yet again and in Jully, 1914,

It is you who needs more reading Jim.
The Government of Ireland Act 1914 (4 & 5 Geo. 5 c. 90), also known as the Home Rule Act, and before enactment as the Third Home Rule Bill, was an Act passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom intended to provide home rule (self-government within the United Kingdom) for Ireland. It was the third such bill introduced by a Liberal government in a 28-year period in response to the Irish Home Rule movement.

The implementation was only postponed because Britain, including Ireland, were embroiled in a desperate war for their very survival and losing.

Compared to your 1500 rebels, over 200 000 Irishmen volunteered for the British Army to fight WW1.
Betrayed and stabbed in the back with weapons supplied by the enemy.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 09:05 AM

The Curragh incident was the first military action in connection with the Home Rule Bill - both that and the Government reaction to it showed that Ireland would never get Home Rule without meeting military resistance - from the top level.
Had the "betrayal" not taken place Irish youth would have suffered the same fate as British youth on the killing fields of Europe leaving the country devoid of a viable population.
WW! was an Imperial War fought in defence of the same Empire Ireland had spent centuries attempting to free itself from.
Any "support" for it was, as in Britain, an alternative to mass poverty and unemployment and a promise of a short, easy war, pretty uniform and regular meals - those who opposed the rebels did so because they adopted the attitude that the sooner it was over the better - when the facts became known they did a complete about turn - within a couple of months and participated in a War of Independence of their own.
They are all the facts, not just selected ones.
WW1 was never Irish otherwise Britain would have introduced compulsory conscription, as it had in the rest of Britain.
The Church had a massive influence on those who joined up - The Bishop of Dublin led a campaign to support 'Gallant Little Belgium' (I actually saw one of his posters last year in The National Library in Dublin).
As I said, the same con both sides of the Irish Sea.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM

Irish youth would have suffered the same fate as British youth on the killing fields of Europe

They did. They volunteered in their thousands. 200 000 from a tiny population.

It was not an "imperial war" for Britain and Ireland.
It was to defend Europe and ourselves from an aggressive invader bringing tyranny and slavery.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:33 AM

Any "support" for it was, as in Britain, an alternative to mass poverty and unemployment and a promise of a short, easy war, pretty uniform and regular meals -

Complete rubbish.
In peace time some joined for those reasons.
This mass enlistment was prompted by the German invasion of Belgium and France and the atrocities they committed.

The greatest numbers joined during and after the retreat from Mons when there was no longer any hope of a quick victory, but a real threat of utter defeat.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:38 AM

" A series of retrospective myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."

"Once the decision to go to war was made on 4th August, the public rallied around what was perceived as a just cause. Their support was very often carefully considered, well-informed, reasoned, and only made once all other options were exhausted. People supported the war, but only because they felt it was the right thing to do in light of the circumstances."
Dr. Catriona Pennel

http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_219199_en.html


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:40 AM

"They did. They volunteered in their thousands. 200 000 from a tiny population."
And immediately changed their minds following the uprising.
It was an Imperial war for both Britain and Ireland - Britain even named the war "The Great Imperial War" and still call their museum "The Imperial War Museum" - it was a war between Empires.
Incidentally, far from a Home Rule Bill being agreed, there was the question of partition to be decided.
Originally Asquith proposed a "temporary" partitioning of Ulster later adapted to only six counties - the period had not been decided.
In 1916, following the uprising, he reintroduced the bill without the "temporary" proviso - all the Irish parliamentarians turned it down.
Although Parliament supported the bill, The House of Lords still opposed it by a large majority.
There was no agreement for Home Rule - there never had been and when it did come with the signing of the treaty in 1922 it led to Civil War - s.f.a. to to with The Easter Rising.
Even if there had been agreement Civil War would have been inevitable - only the Unionists wanted partition and the Government went along with that following the Curragh attempted military coup (which was what it was in essence)
There was never support for the war in Ireland and the government was aware of that otherwise they would have introduced compulsory conscription as they did throughout the rest of the British Isles - when they tried, they failed miserably.
Jim Carroll


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