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Northern Ireland - anthem?

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GUEST,clueless 23 Mar 02 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 23 Mar 02 - 07:50 AM
Snuffy 23 Mar 02 - 10:07 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 23 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM
John Routledge 23 Mar 02 - 10:24 AM
Big Tim 23 Mar 02 - 12:04 PM
The Pooka 23 Mar 02 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,clueless again 23 Mar 02 - 12:22 PM
The Pooka 23 Mar 02 - 12:33 PM
masato sakurai 23 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM
Fibula Mattock 23 Mar 02 - 12:43 PM
Manitas_at_home 23 Mar 02 - 12:44 PM
The Pooka 23 Mar 02 - 01:15 PM
masato sakurai 23 Mar 02 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,clueless 23 Mar 02 - 02:28 PM
ard mhacha 23 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM
Big Tim 23 Mar 02 - 04:27 PM
Suffet 23 Mar 02 - 06:15 PM
The Pooka 23 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,CraigS 23 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 24 Mar 02 - 06:01 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 24 Mar 02 - 06:09 AM
ard mhacha 24 Mar 02 - 06:29 AM
Big Mick 24 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 24 Mar 02 - 02:52 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 24 Mar 02 - 02:59 PM
allie kiwi 24 Mar 02 - 04:21 PM
Janice in NJ 24 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 24 Mar 02 - 04:33 PM
paddymac 24 Mar 02 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 24 Mar 02 - 04:36 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 24 Mar 02 - 04:42 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 24 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 24 Mar 02 - 10:36 PM
allie kiwi 24 Mar 02 - 11:50 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 25 Mar 02 - 02:09 AM
GUEST,spanner in the works 25 Mar 02 - 03:49 AM
Paddy Plastique 25 Mar 02 - 04:09 AM
GUEST,melodymaker 25 Mar 02 - 07:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 02 - 07:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 02 - 07:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 02 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Melodymaker 25 Mar 02 - 08:47 AM
Wolfgang 25 Mar 02 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,The Ard Rí of Irrelevance 25 Mar 02 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,melodymaker 25 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,melodymaker 25 Mar 02 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Declan 25 Mar 02 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,melodymaker 25 Mar 02 - 10:06 AM
Big Mick 25 Mar 02 - 01:30 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 25 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 25 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 25 Mar 02 - 04:13 PM
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Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 25 Mar 02 - 04:26 PM
The Pooka 25 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM
The Pooka 25 Mar 02 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,Declan 26 Mar 02 - 05:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM
Tattie Bogle 26 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM
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Subject: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,clueless
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 07:36 AM

I was just wondering - does Northern Ireland has its own national anthem?


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 07:50 AM

Amhán Na bhFiann/Soldier's Song

Sinne Fianna Fáil,
Atá Fá gheall ag Éirinn,
Buidhean dár sluagh tar rúinn do ráinig chughainn:
Fámhoídh bheírh saor,
Sean-tír ár sinnsear feasta
Ní fágfar fá'n tíorán ná fa'n tráil;
Anocht a theigeamh sa bhearna baoghail,
Le gean ar Gaedhí chun báis nó saoghail,
Le gunna sgréach: Fá lamhach na piléar.
Seo Libh canaidh amhrán na bhFiann.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:07 AM

So, Garg, is Canada's anthem "The Star Spangled Banner"?


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM

Gargoyle,

That's the Republic of Ireland's anthem, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: John Routledge
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:24 AM

Didn't realise that you were "clueless" Gargoyle.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:04 PM

No. It shares "God Save the Queen" with the rest of the UK.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:07 PM

I thought it was "The Old Orange Flute". :) (Jussssst kidding fellers....)


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,clueless again
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:22 PM

Yeah but even though Wales and Scotland also share the UK anthem they still have their own "regional" anthems. So I thought Northern Ireland might have one as well. Somewhere I read it was "Londonderry Air" - could that be true?

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:33 PM

For a Mudcat thread on Ulster Scots music, Click here


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM

I'm wondering, too. These sites (THIS & THIS) say the national anthem of Northern Ireland is "A Londonderry Air" ("Danny Boy"). According to this site (Click here), it is "God Save the Queen".

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:43 PM

It's a pity they're both shite. I vote for "mahnah mahnah" by The Muppets.

At my graduation (Queen's Uni in Belfast) the playing of the British National Anthem was dropped in favour of the European one (Ode to Joy), if I remember rightly. (We did, however, have an RUC band at the garden party afterwards playing "The Green Grassy Slopes of the Boyne", but there wasn't much fuss made about that - maybe no one recognised it.)


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:44 PM

At 'home' international football and rugby matches they play 'The (London)Derry Air'.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 01:15 PM

Well here below is an interesting article, from August 2000 I think, bemoaning the lack of an official N.I. anthem and advocating, among other things, the creation & adoption of one by the Northen Ireland Assembly. / Saaay, is there a Mudcat Challenge in here somewhere? We've been re-writing or replacing some *old* anthems on another thread...I'll put 'Catters' songwriting talent (and Harmonizing skill, on both musical & political levels) up against Assemblymen Gerry Adams's & Ian Paisley's any day...

Click here


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 01:42 PM

Thanks for the link.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,clueless
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 02:28 PM

Thanks very much for the links and info!

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

Do me a favour, how can six sick counties have a national anthem. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 04:27 PM

Get real Ard: it's not the "six counties", it's NI.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Suffet
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 06:15 PM

Here's my contribution.

To the tune of The Old Orange Flute:

Oh, are we six counties or are we one land?
Do we belong to the U.K. or old Ireland?
If you know the answer, oh do share it, please,
But for the meanwhile, can't we all live in peace?

We've had enough bloodshed, we've had enough war,
And it's getting to be a bloody big bore,
So if you're hot for killing, please do yourself in,
And I doubt that we'll miss you while we sit and grin!

New words © Stephen L. Suffet 2002


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Subject: Lyr Add: PEACE IN ERIN (Hugh McWilliams)
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM

Good one there, Suffet. :)

Ard & Big, Uh oh, here we go. (Well, I suppose I was askin' fer it. Sorry.) Look, it's both. Wot's inna Name? It's all of the Six Counties of the Statelet of the Province of Northern Ireland of the United Kingdom, and it's Northeast Ulster and two-thirds of the Fourth Green Field and how's about a cheering rousing chorus of the Boyne Water & Three-Quarters Of A Nation Once Again. Me, I like the dialectical designation I learned here on the 'Cat: Norn Iron.

It needn't be a *national* anthem. Just an anthem.

Well, in the spirit if not the letter of the idea, here's one of many fine offerings from the thread "Peace in Ireland: A Song Challenge" - Click here -- this posted by John Moulden in March 2000. (For a heartfelt modern original composition, see Big John's therein, March 11 2002.) For a song to merit Anthem consideration, "Erin" would probably have to go--the Name problem y'know, compounded by an actual *language* issue--but maybe people could agree on, like -- "Ireland"? But it's the Thought that counts. I hope.


PEACE IN ERIN
by Hugh McWilliams
born County Antrim, 1783

Were all mankind disposed like me,
To live in love and unity,
No more contention there would be,
Upon the plains of Erin.
Originally we are sprung,
From Father Adam, old and young,
These words should flow from every tongue,
We'll cherish peace in Erin

We're formed by one Deity,
To worship him, let's all agree,
And live in love and harmony
With every class in Erin.
On Sunday, if our roads do lie,
To Clough, or to the Glens hard by,
It should not weaken friendship's tie,
Amongst the sons of Erin!

What shore can boast so pure an air?
Or sons more brave or girls more fair,
Or who were e'er esteemed in war,
Before the boys of Erin ?
Their courage far abroad is known,
In the field of mars their glory shone;
Then let us cultivate at home,
The laws of peace in Erin !

Would freedom fair and commerce smile,
Upon my dear, my native isle,
Not Egypt with her flowing Nile,
Could equal thee sweet Erin;
Fine silver lakes and pearly springs,
And verdant groves where music rings,
And health, with healing in her wings,
Do bless the land of Erin.

'Tis principle that shows the man,
This is the best, the only plan,
And one that I have built upon,
As passing through old Erin.
Then let us at the present day,
Drive prejudice and spleen away,
Far, far beyond the Atlantic sea,
And all shake hands in Erin!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM

Officially, the anthem is the British one - which is the same in Liechtenstein, but with different words for some reason or other. When there's an "international" competition, the dreaded Danny Boy is dragged out because the tune doesn't offend anyone, although the loyalists refuse to acknowledge the existence of Londonderry, which they insist is called Derry. Me, I'd suggest the tune of McAlpine's Fusiliers, whatever that is called.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:01 AM

At international rugby matches in Dublin, "Amhrán na bhFiann" is played followed by a Phil Coulter confection called "Ireland's Call". Phil should stick to pop music
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:09 AM

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are COUNTRIES and not regions as some people think they are. and are separtate Countries from England.

That's why we have nationl anthems for our countries and even though we're still a part of the UK, that's why Scotland has a parliment, and Northern Ireland and Wales have assemblies.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:29 AM

It`s ok Tim, I understand watching the oul back again, and Annraoi I couldn`t agree more, it`s bad enough listening to any anthem before any form of sport. No bloody anthems, just get on with the game. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM

If the north of Ireland is a country, perhaps you could help us by showing us its constitution, or governing principles. You know, some founding documents that show that its people have agreed on the principles under which they will govern themselves. Help me here, Tam.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:52 PM

just go to google and then type in northern Ireland constitution, and then you'll be able to get all the information there.

two sites that I found were

cain.ulst.ac.uk/hmso/cmd5675 and www.geocities,com/capitalhill/cogress/2430/


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:59 PM

just go to google and then type in northern Ireland constitution, and then you'll be able to get all the information there.

two sites that I found were

cain.ulst.ac.uk/hmso/cmd5675 and www.geocities,com/capitalhill/cogress/2430


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: allie kiwi
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:21 PM

Is that implying that if there was no constitution you would not consider Northern Ireland a country? Believe it or not there are a couple of countries in the world who manage quite well without one. New Zealand is one of these. But yeah... I get the point about people not exactly agreeing to the governing principals up there!

I remember years ago when the Commonwealth Games were held in Auckland, a boxer from Northern Ireland won gold, but they could not get the national anthem to play. A gentleman in the audience got up and sang 'Danny Boy' to much applause.

Which is the more accepted name - The Derry Air, or Londonderry Air?

Allie


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM

It first appeared in print in the 19th century under the name Irish Tune from County Derry.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:33 PM

So has Britain, it doesn't have a written consititution either and yet we're a country, made up as four countries.

I agree with Allie Kiwi


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:35 PM

I agree with Annaroi and Ard Macha that Phil Coulter's "Ireland's Call" isn't exactly what one would think of as being an anthem, but I like it anyway. It's some of the gob shites who use football/soccer as a substitute for a life of their own that I find a mite irksome.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:36 PM

Some very stranger notions are floated on this forum, not the least of which is that "Northern Ireland" is a country with its own written Constitution and National Anthem.
I spend a good deal of my time in and around the seat of government at Stormont and I've never heard either claim made.
Having said that, it is very interesteing that certain words and phrases are gaining increasing currency here. No longer is it politically correct to refer to Ireland. One must say "The island of Ireland". The word "country" is eschewed, again when referring to Ireland. "Island" is once more pressed into service. Reference to "Northern Ireland" even is frequently avoided (the dreaded " I " word)euphemisms such as "the Province" being used instead. When talking about the early years of Christianity, one must not talk of "Early Irish Church" but rather about the "Early Celtic Church". Ogham inscriptions are no longer considered to have been inscribed in an early form of Irish, but in Celtic. Our ancient ancestors in "The Island of Ireland" were. apparently, not Irish, they were Celtic.
So, insidiously, a gap is manufactured to separate us from our roots. Any reference to "Ireland" (unqualified) Irish, Early Irish, Old Irish etc. is not acceptable in "enlightened and liberal" circles. Anyone failing to fall into line is in danger of being branded as divisive.
Where will it all end? Will we be reassimilated into "the Mainland", which, for those unenlightened enough to use terms like "Ireland" and "Irish" etc., is England.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:42 PM

OK YOU ALL WIN I GIVE UP


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM

I don't want to argue with anyone, because when I do I get carried away and start to insult people, and I don't want to do that.

However I'll check this thread and then see if I get a response from Big Mick.

And if I don't agree with him, it won't matter because I'll just agree to disagree.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM

The one the could use, since it's sung by both traditions, and takes a knock at both varieties of bigots, would be the Old Orange Flute. Back to Gargoyle's suggestion - well, there is a fourth verse Peadar Kearney wrote to the Soldier's Song with the North-East in mind:

And here where Eire's glories bide
Clann London fain would flourish;
But Ulster-wide what e'er betide
No pirate blood shall flourish.
While flames the faith of Con and Owen,
While Cave Hill guards the grave of Tone,
From Gulluion's Slopes to Inishowen,
We'll chant a Soldier's Song.

But I think that's one for the back burner.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:36 PM

Tam,
Please try to get it right! "Britain" is composed of two countries, Wales and England.
"Great Britain" came into being with the assimilation of Scotland into Britain, thus making it a unit of three countries.
In the year of 1801, the absorbtion of Ireland under the terms of the "Act of Union" gave rise to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland".
After the Treaty of 1921, this "United Kingdom" was reduced to "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", the which it remains today.
Ali Kiwi, if my memory serves me right, the occasion happened, but I am open to correction, in Canada. In any case, what is *not* open to dispute is that "Danny Boy" was sung spontaneously by Dr. Seán Donnelly, the medico looking after the Irish boxers.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: allie kiwi
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 11:50 PM

Annraoi, you could be correct. It is a miracle indeed that I was even watching the boxing, let alone have any memory of who won! Sports mad I am not. *grin*

Allie


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:09 AM

OK I'll admit I'm wrong as usual

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Tam


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,spanner in the works
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:49 AM

I vite for "The Ballad of Jane Falloon" otherwise known as "Down The Aghagallon Road". Words to it may be found here. It's the third of three songs by the folk philosophiser and chronicler of the vernacular how-d'ye-dos of the town of the long spade, the estimable Jimmy Creaney - rest his soul!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:09 AM

National anthems are bleddy muzak for cannon fodder anyway... they're all shite...


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,melodymaker
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 07:11 AM

Lets stop kidding ourselves. People in Northern Ireland would never agree on a national anthem. Don't get me wrong.....some would happily agree. But there are many who wouldn't.....just 'cause they've spent their whole life disagreeing. Sad but true


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 07:55 AM

I suppose it'd technically speaking be "a provincial anthem". Maybe "We all live in an Orange submarine..."


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 07:58 AM

My understanding on naming of parts is different from that of Annraoi.

It is that "Great Britain" means exactly the same as "Britain", and is a way of distinguishing it from Brittany. (Grand Bretagne and Bretagne.)

Either way it is essentially a geographical expression. Britain - "Britannia" as the Romans called it - is the big island in between France and Ireland, including the little islands around it such as the Isle of Wight and the Isle of Anglesey, and most of the Scottish ones, but not the Orkneys and the Shetlands. (I'm not sure about the Outer Hebrides.)

(I'm having to break this post into bits because the server is playing up again.)


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 07:59 AM

(last part)

And there isn't technically any such country as "Britain" or "Great Britain". When James I and V came to the throne it was initially referred to as "the United Kingdoms", but at some later stage the "s" got dropped. Would that have been at the time the Scots gave up their last parliament? Is there any move to reinstate the older term?

And the United Kingdom (or Kingdoms) currently includes England, Cornwall, Wales, Scotland (including the islands that aren't part of Britain) together with part of Ulster. But not the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

Bloody confusing, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Melodymaker
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:47 AM

Provincial - National.....still unsatisfactory!!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:53 AM

An advice how to use the terms Britain/UK/British/British Isles etc. that I find useful though I don't doubt for a second that most if not all of those living on these islands will disagree with at least one of the definitions.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,The Ard Rí of Irrelevance
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:55 AM

The Green Grassy Slopes Of Ardoyne


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,melodymaker
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM

Living there myself...i think you have misunderstood my point


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,melodymaker
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:25 AM

I only meant that there will undoubtably be dissent, what ever tune/tune title you come up with. I had a bit of hope until I saw that interview that Blair did with the young people from N.I. There are still fascists being bred.....closed minds abound. Scarey!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:45 AM

Whatever one thinks about the status of the six counties of Northern Ireland the one thing it isn't is a single nation - so a national anthem can't exist for it. It would be nice if there could be a song that everyone could unite behind, but I think it will take time and hard work before that could be achieved. Danny Boy is useful suggestion, but unfortunately once you use the alternative title the row over "London"Derry starts off. And the words of the song, while fine (if a bit mawkish)in that context hardly form the basis of an anthem.

There was a new set of words written for this song (I think by Tyrone Guthrie but I might be completely wrong about this) and recorded by De Dannan some years back. These words referred to 'a land by love united' which is at least a lovely aspiration, but a while off I think. The song also contains at least one reference to God which will probably upset the atheists (both the catholic atheists and the protestant ones).

One thing that gives me hope is when I see the South African Rugby team playing and the (still mostly white) crowd passionately singing the old ANC anthem. Who'd have thought that 20 years ago ?


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,melodymaker
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 10:06 AM

My sentiment exactly Declan. However, it is my belief that many in N.Ireland believe they are a seperate entity. And therefore believe they should have their own anthem. (Cath, Prot, Athi, alike


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 01:30 PM

Thanks, Annraoi, for making several points that I would have made. You did it much better than I could ever have. The website that Tam sent me to had absolutely no reference to a constitution for "Northern Ireland", whatever the hell that is. In my mind it is simply the north of Ireland. Ulster has, since the earliest recorded times, had a personality all its own. But that is no different than the "downeasters", "southerners", "yankees", or "midwesterners" here in the United States of America. The simple fact is that Ulster consists of 9 counties, not 6. They are simply Irish counties that have been partitioned by a construct based on a political situation that Great Britain got herself into, and has been looking for a way out of for quite a time now. I wish the folks that live there well, and hope they find the peaceful path for that to happen..............for the children, all the children. But what I will attempt to expose every time I see it, is false language used to try and create a new reality.

Annraoi..............spot on with regard to your comments re: the much overused, and usually incorrectly, term of "Celtic". Great stuff, sir.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM

So Big Mick, according to you Annroai, a Country needs a written Constitution for it to be called a country.

And Yet New Zealand, Britian and sevral other countries, these ones don't have a written consistitution, so according to you Big Mick, Britain and New Zealand and other countries that don't have written consistitutions aren't really countries.

Tam


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM

I just want to try something here

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2430/click here


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:13 PM

I just want to try soething here I just hope I can get it,

I know that websitew isn't what some people want but here goes http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2430/


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:25 PM

Cut and paste this into your post:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2430/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test this link: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2430/

Make another link


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:26 PM

It does work,

If anyone is intrested in the web site please by all means use it.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM

Tam the Bam - thanks. That is indeed an informative site---at least for those who can tolerate (a) statistics & the analysis thereof; and (b) the possibility that demography may be destiny. I've looked at that massive report before; and once posted it myself as a Clickie, somewhere-or-other on this musical-and-therefore-Irish-permeated Forum.

Although it's far from certain (as the Report rightly indicates), I think the preponderance of demographic evidence suggests that NI will probably someday vote to join the Irish Republic. I'm biased because I favor that---recognizing that that's real easy to say, from thousands of miles away. And -- I also think that if demography is indeed destiny, there's something intrinsically sad about that, regardless of one's preferred outcome.

Well. We shall see. But for the present, I still wistfully wish that the peoples of NI could settle upon an official-or-unofficial Anthem---regional, provincial, national, bicultural, call it what you will. Oh well -- I suppose not. (Not *yet*?) I suppose there is more important work to be done at this stage. (It just would be -- well -- nice.)

For anyone so inclined, here are assorted "official" (distinctly non-musical) NI-related sites:

The British government's Northern Ireland Office, Click here

The Northern Ireland Assembly, Click here

The Ulster Unionist Party, Click here

The Democratic Unionist Party, Click here

The Social Democratic and Labour Party, Click here

Sinn Fein, Click here


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 11:54 PM

One more site, to round out the above - the Republic of Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs (under "Policies", click on "Anglo-Irish" for NI material) -- Click here


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Subject: Lyr Add: ANTHEM FOR IRELAND (Desmond Leslie)
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:16 AM

This is the Anthem for Ireland recorded by De Dannan. To avoid a row lets say its sung to the same air as Danny Boy (a tune which many believe to be Irish, but some claim is British as the song is believed to have its roots in Scotland - sounds familiar). The words are written by Desmond Leslie (whose name I got completely wrong yesterday - apologies). While this one might not be perfect, I think it has more going for it than chanting soldier's songs or praising the glorious king/queen.

ANTHEM FOR IRELAND (Words Desmond Leslie sung to the air of Danny Boy)

Oh land of love, We bless thee gentle Mother
Oh land of life, fair jewel of the sea
Oh land of joy, where brother shall meet brother,
And all thy souls shall dwell in harmony

And when the clouds of torment and of sorrow,
Flee with the dark at rising of the sun,
Hand shall clasp hand in happiness tomorrow
And we shall live in peace until His work is done.

All wounds shall heal, unkindness be forgiven,
All hearts forget, as ends our darkest night,
No more shall we by wars & strife be riven
All Ireland's children face the future bright.

One God shall reign, in hearts His flame has lighted,
And He shall lead his people to the sun,
One heart, one soul, one land by love united,
There we shall live in peace until His work be done.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM

Pleasing. Mind I bet there'd be people objecting to "brother shall meet brother" as sexist.

The trouble with calling the tune "the Derry Air" is that it sounds too like derriere, meaning bottom. I think that's one reason why it's still quite common to hear it referred to as "The Londonderry Air", even amomng people with decided Republican preferences.

It occurs to me thta pretty well every towns and every county in Ireland has its own "national anthem" - but so far as I know, there aren't any for any of the four provinces. (Of course Northern Ireland is only part of a province, but that's another matter.)


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM

Well yer BBC man at the Ireland v. Italy rugby match last Saturday was heard to say " of course thay have to play 3 National Anthems at the Ireland matches" -(nearly wrote anathemas, might have been more appropriate). There's the Italy one, of which very few people know the words. apart from "Italia, Italia" and sounds like it comes from a Verdi opera. Then you have the Irish Republic one (see above for proper name). Then, just in case there's the odd man from the "North" in the team, you have "Ireland,Ireland" which talks of the 4 provinces - but again only a few seem to know the words. I suggest Ron Kavana's "Reconciliation" and "Too ra loo ra ly" might work better. Tattie B


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:58 PM

Here's the Italian one, words and if you click on the flag, the elaborate tune. I gather the music is by a contemporary of Verdi called Michele Novaro. Sounds very Verdiesque - like an outtake from Aida.

It finsihes with the words "Let us unite. We are ready to die. Italy calls." That's the way to write 'em!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:10 PM

Declan, thanks for "Anthem for Ireland". That's a good one, that is. Yeah, that would do nicely. And with the well-accepted melody.

McGrath, yeah I always kindof quietly thought that about the presumptive republican place-name title for that tune; glad to hear it's not just me. In "The Town I Loved So Well" the lyric "...There was music there, in the Derry air..." somehow always made me think of this bilingual conundrum (couldn't the ruddy French have had a different-sounding word? Mais non), and inwardly smirk at the ridiculous imagery. Shame on me. / Then again, in "Teddy Bear's Head" (Wolfetones, was it? *Must've* been) there's a line about ol' Teddy Eire pointing its arse towards England...butt enough o' that merde. :)

As for songs of the Provinces, of course there's "Four Green Fields" MAIS, NON! that wouldn't do at *all*, at all. "Anathema", indeed. The very opposite of what we're reaching for, here. Just makem go crazy, that would. Ahem.

I like that "Anthem for Ireland". It's like "Peace in Erin" (far above herein), but updated.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:00 AM

An Interview with Nigel Dodds MP (N. Belfast)

In the 2001 General Election, Nigel Dodds (right of picture) of the Democratic Unionist Party dramatically overturned the majority of sitting MP, Ulster Unionist Cecil Walker, to win the seat for North Belfast. Indeed, DUP election results have improved so considerably recently that the party looks set to eclipse David Trimble's Ulster Unionists in future polls. This could be due to discomfort amongst the Unionist community at Trimble's perceived willingness to bow to Tony Blair's every whim as he makes concession after concession to the Republican movement, whilst the DUP stand steadfastly behind the Union. I first heard Nigel speak at a private meeting of Conservatives and Unionists at the House of Commons, just before Christmas. It is always interesting to hear a new MP speak, but Nigel struck me with his sincerity, and the clarity with which he made his points. Shortly afterwards, when discussing with a colleague the French proposal to move war graves from the Somme in order to build an airport on the site, he mentioned to me that Nigel Dodds had tabled an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons dealing with that same subject. Knowing that this was an issue that NESA members would feel passionately about, and wanting to give NESA News readers a greater insight into the Northern Ireland situation, I contacted Nigel's office to request an interview. After Nigel treated me to a very nice tea in the splendid surroundings of the 'Pugin Room' at the House of Commons, I was able to put the following questions:

GC. Nigel, many of our members are Roman Catholic. Republican propaganda, which is often, unfortunately, disseminated through the mainstream media, generally portrays Unionists as being irrational, confrontational, and a threat to the safety of the Catholic community. What would you say to our Catholic members about the Unionist agenda? ND. The Unionist agenda is quite simply to maintain the Union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland in order to protect the interests of everyone, Protestant and Catholic alike. In fact, when we look at the percentage of our population who are Catholic, it becomes clear that at elections many Catholics vote for Unionist parties because they want to see the benefits of being a part of the United Kingdom maintained and preserved for themselves and for their families. Unionism is not about any sort of sectarian agenda at all, its about trying to protect the interests of everybody, and I believe firmly that the Union is good for Northern Ireland and should be maintained because it provides a better way of life for Protestants and Catholics alike, or indeed people of any religion. GC. I have always found it ironic that Sinn Fein / IRA have managed to portray themselves as defenders of the Catholic community. They are of course Marxists, and as such atheists. That great hero of the Marxist revolutionary movement, Lenin, declared that 'Atheism is at the very heart of Marxism." ND. Thats absolutely right. Sinn Fein I IRA have often been involved in bitter controversy with, and been bitterly critical of the Roman Catholic church in Northern Ireland. In fact, the IRA have murdered more Catholics than have been killed by the so-called 'forces of British oppression' that they criticize so strongly. Sinn Fein I IRA are not the defenders of the Catholic people at all: They have their own narrow agenda which is to establish a radical socialist/Marxist state in Ireland, north and south, and that is why they are a danger to democracy. It is interesting to note that as they expand their operations in the Irish Republic, how much this is now being noted by parties in the south who are coming out strongly against Sinn Fein I IRA for their association with violence, and because of their communistic philosophy. GC. There is a suspicion that the so-called 'REAL IRA' and 'CONTINUITY IRA' are under the control of the Army Council of the Provisional IRA. It was certainly interesting to note that within a short time of the announcement of the PIRA cease-fire, and prior to the commencement of the de-commissioning programme, a significant number of PIRA weapons were reported 'stolen' by the dissident groups. Would you care to speculate on this suggestion? ND. I think that the reality is, having discussed this very issue with the police and security forces, that in the majority of cases involving the 'Continuity IRA' and the 'Real IRA' there is an overlap of membership between those organisations and the Provisional IRA. They could not operate in areas of Belfast or elsewhere across the province without the connivance, or at least the permission of, the Provisional's. For instance, trouble in the New Lodge area, or the Ardoyne, simply does not happen unless the Provisional's give permission for it to happen. What we have are paramilitary gunmen claiming to be dissident republicans: Most people in Northern Ireland do not recognise any difference between the dissidents and the Provisional's. The IRA have been very good at using cover to carry out acts of violence and murder, and then having blame deflected from them because for political reasons they do not want the spotlight to be turned on Sinn Fein and their involvement with the gunmen of Northern Ireland. GC. The explosives that were used to make the bombs at Warrington, Omagh, and Canary Wharf were quite likely bought with Dollars raised in the bars of Boston and New York. If the communist agenda of Sinn Fein / IRA could have been more emphasised, could that source of funding have been cut-off? Certainly recent revelations that the IRA are involved with South American Marxists have hurt their credibility in the USA. ND. Apparently so, and I think that the recent visit by Gerry Adams to Cuba was extremely significant in that it showed where his true loyalties lie, especially as there was not a word of condemnation from Adams or Sinn Fein of the gross human rights abuses committed by the Castro regime. I think, Gary, that you are quite right in that the American people are not aware of just how left-wing and anti-capitalist and anti-democratic Sinn Fein is. More should be done to expose that. There is strong feeling in Northern Ireland that the US government is fighting a battle against terrorism worldwide and yet for many years its politicians, people on Capitol Hill, even in the White House under Bill Clinton, feted and welcomed, wined and dined Sinn Fein I IRA while they were carrying out terrorist acts against a part of the UK, which is supposed to be America's closest allie. People are saying that when it visited them at home, Americans realised the reality of terrorism. Perhaps they will realise what we went through for 30 years now that they have experienced something similar, which is a terrible situation which should not be visited on anyone. GC. What is the situation like for the folk on the streets of North Belfast today?

ND. The situation is very tense. There is clearly an agenda at work on the part of the republican movement to try to force Protestants and Unionists out of many areas. There are a number of enclaves where Protestants are living, such as the White City area, which are seeing their numbers decline as people are forced out, and there are republicans who feel that if they can keep the troubles going, keep up the intimidation, keep throwing the petrol bombs, then the Protestants will move out and they can take over that territory. That has been the pattern in recent years. That's not to say that there is no violence on the part of the Protestants or the Loyalists, because clearly there is, and all of this violence I would condemn, but underlying it all is an agenda on the part of the republicans to force Protestants and Unionists out of parts of the City of Belfast. GC. What you describe, is a programme of Ethnic Cleansing, is it not?

ND. It is indeed ethnic cleansing. We've seen it along the border areas where Protestants were murdered, sometimes only sons, because they were the only people who could carry on with the family farm. They are singled out, targeted, and then murdered, so forcing a Protestant family out of the border area, allowing their homes to be taken over by republicans. This same sort of ethnic cleansing is being carried out in parts of Belfast. GC. Tony Blair's name has been mentioned in connection with a possible Nobel Peace Prize. How will your constituents feel about this? ND. I think they would laugh because when they look around in North Belfast they would ask "What peace?". In fact they have seen no benefits from the so-called 'Peace Process': All they have seen is Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness who are both self confessed terrorist Godfathers not only not brought to justice and not locked away, but actually being rewarded by being given positions in the government of Northern Ireland. They've also seen, of course, the terrorist prisoners released, and the RUC decimated with even its name being taken away. They've seen the military vilified in a so-called inquiry into the events of Bloody Sunday, where millions of pounds are being spent to try to paint the British Army in the blackest possible picture. People in my constituency will find this suggestion laughable because there will only be peace when it can be based on proper democracy and proper justice, and that is not what the people of Northern Ireland are getting at the moment. GC. With our Prime Minister advocating, and presiding over the break-up of the UK in order to facilitate the transfer of parliamentary power from Westminster to Brussels, possibly Unionism has a future role to play on the mainland? N.D. Possibly, given the lessons which we have learned in Northern Ireland about the way in which the British government have behaved in terms of pushing an agenda which over-rides the wishes of the people, going ahead regardless of what the majority want. This all augurs very badly for other parts of the UK. We're seeing it happen in another place, outside of the UK but loyal to it, and that is Gibraltar. Again there is an agenda being pursued, and it does not seem to matter what the Gibraltarians want, the government is going to go ahead and betray them in a joint sovereignty agreement with Spain. If we look at what is happening in Northern Ireland and look at what is going to happen to Gibraltar it becomes apparent that the agenda of Tony Blair and the Labour government is to break up the UK as much as they can. They must not be allowed to succeed. GC. We at NESA share your concern at the proposed desecration of the Somme war graves in order to facilitate the building of a third airport for Paris. I know that you are playing a leading role in trying to persuade the British government to intervene: What is the situation at present? ND. Assurances have been sought from the French authorities who are saying that they are taking account of the concerns that are being expressed. However, it is clear that these assurances need to be explored in some depth. There remain great anxieties among many people that at the end of the day the French will, as has been demonstrated in their dealings with the EU, for example, put French interests above all else. I have been to the Somme on many occasions and I am aware of how special that place is, and I am aware of the place it has in the hearts of Ulster people, 5,000 of whom lost their lives at the Battle of the Somme in 1916. It would be an absolute disgrace if anything were done which would interfere with these graves. There has been a very large response across all parties at Westminster to these suggestions, and I'm confident that we will win the day. GC. Is there anything that we at NESA, as an organisation and as individuals, can do to help? ND. In a situation like this every letter that goes from individuals to the Prime Minister or to the Sec of State for Defence, Geoff Hoon, and to the French authorities via their embassy in London, can play a part in emphasising to these people how strong the feelings are. There is no doubt that people do take account of such letters, and if this mailer is being raised constantly with them then it will make them think twice before they proceed. GC. Nigel Dodds, on behalf of NESA, thank you very much. Personal Comment Nigel's comments regarding ethnic cleansing are indeed chilling, and make a mockery of the so-called 'Peace Process'. Anybody who doubts any of the points made about the communistic agenda of the Republican movement, and the complicity of Blair's administration should consider the following: Former Northern Ireland secretary Peter Mandleson openly advocated the Republican policy of a united Ireland. Peter Mandleson joined the Communist Party in 1973. Blair himself appointed Mandleson to his ministerial position. A 'peek behind the curtains' of parliamentary politics often reveals trends and undercurrents such as this: Most disturbing when you consider that we are supposed to be living in a democracy. How can a politician be answerable to the electorate when he will not even come clean about his true agenda? Regarding Nigel's Early Day Motion (565) concerning the Somme war graves, I made a representation, on behalf of NESA, to lain Duncan Smith requesting that his party support this motion. It was with some disappointment that I noted that of 57 signatories, only 4 were from the Conservative party. It has since been brought to my attention that on 6th March 2002, another DUP member, Iris Robinson (MP for Strangford) has tabled an EDM calling for MPs to commemorate and recognise the forthcoming 20th anniversary of the Falklands war, and the members of the armed forces and civilian population who paid the ultimate price. It will be interesting to see if the Conservatives give more support to this EDM. If not, possibly we can revisit this matter in the pages of NESA News in the run up to the next general election! Certainly the DUP are demonstrating their commitment to the UK, and their awareness of, and respect for, those who have fallen in defence of this country. They are to be commended for that.

Biographical Details - Nigel Dodds OBE MP MLA

Born 20 Aug 1958 in Londonderry Educated at St John's College, Cambridge and the Inst. for Legal Studies, Belfast Barrister-at-Law 1981 -84. Secretariat, European Parliament 1984-88 Elected to Belfast City Council in 1985 to represent Castle Ward (Lord Mayor 1988-89 and 1991-92) Member of the NI Forum 1996-98 Elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly 1998 Minister for Social Development 2000-present Elected as MP for North Belfast 2001


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:53 AM

Is the one way up top in Irish the one translated as I went away to fight a war / that small nations might be free?


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 05:08 AM

Anyone still out there after that verbal buffeting from Nigel Dodds ? Mrrzy - I don't think 'Amhráin na bhFiann'
is the one you're thinking of. The line you cite is a standard expression of the con-job perpetrated by the
British Army with the help of the Irish Parliamentary party (Home Rulers) on the eve of WWI
It sounds similar to the lines from 'The Foggy Dew': 'It was Britain bade our Wild Geese go, That small nations might be free'
Southern Irishmen were also duped into the trenches with the slogan: 'Fight to free poor Catholic Belgium'
'The Foggy Dew' bears no relation to 'Amhráin na bhFiann' - translated as 'A Soldier's Song' - apart from the respective death tolls,
and the proliferation of firearms in each song.

As an aside, there's a peculiar detail from the Norn Iron soccer team's terrible performance in Liechtenstein last night:
"But after two bursts of God Save The Queen - the Liechtenstein national anthem has the same tune as Northern Ireland's - the home side set about McIlroy's team."
So said the Guardian report on the match. 0-0 it ended - at least they didn't do it in a competitive match like us !!
Finally, if by a 'national' anthem you want something to clear the hall at the end of the night, I think both sides of the
sectarian divide could agree on 'The Parting Glass', no?? No use for whipping up sports crowds into a frenzy, though.. :->


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 04:50 PM

The main thing which the leadership of Sinn Féin must reproach itself for is misleading so many people, including the IRA, in Ireland and throughout the world as to their true intentions when entering into negotiations. These talks have achieved nothing more than a consolidation of unionism in the north of Ireland, the complete destruction of the IRA and the relinquishment of every principle which true Irish republicans hold dear. —Mary Larkin, South Armagh, 9 Dec 1999


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Yer Mawn
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 05:01 PM

Them's great lyrics for an anthem, Mrs Larkin. How does the tune go?


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 10:21 AM

Whats with the current trend of refering to the British Lions rugby team as the British and Irish Lions. I thought the team was that of The British Isles (i.e. Great Britain and Ireland plus many other smaller ones) and consequently refered to as The British Lions.


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,Conán
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 09:56 PM

Guest
I think it is a recognition at long last that Ireland is NOT a British island.
Conán


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: GUEST,guestsky
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:44 AM

A LION is a LION is a LION!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 10:58 AM

Ireland is not a British Island. But it is one of the British Isles!


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Subject: RE: Northern Ireland - anthem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 11:58 AM

This is drifting far away. But that's how it goes.

I suppose they could call them the British Isles' Lions.

But why Lions at all? If it was just English and Scots, fair enough in heraldic terms, But I've never heard of Lions of any sort having anything to do with Ireland or Wales.

Bonnie Bunch of Roses would be a term with more historic resonance. I suppose the lads might object to the idea of being referred to as a Bunch of Roses, but that would just get the adrenalin flowing.

Anyway they could spin it as being "The Blood Red Roses", and that sounds decidedly macho and scary. Especially if you could get a good shantyman to train them into roaring it out before matches - I reckon it'd be a pretty effective counter to a New Zealand war dance.


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