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Politically incorrect national anthems

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SharonA 20 Mar 02 - 04:00 PM
Clinton Hammond 20 Mar 02 - 04:05 PM
Irish sergeant 20 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM
SharonA 20 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM
DMcG 20 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM
SharonA 20 Mar 02 - 04:13 PM
RichM 20 Mar 02 - 04:26 PM
Crane Driver 20 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 02 - 04:33 PM
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Subject: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:00 PM

While searching for something entirely unrelated, I came across this (admittedly dated) article on www.canoe.ca:

Senator wants to change anthem's sexist lyrics
Thursday, June 28, 2001

OTTAWA (CP) -- A Liberal senator would have Canadians command their sons and daughters to consider new, non-sexist lyrics for O Canada. Senator Vivienne Poy says the Canada Day weekend is a good time to reflect on the English words of the national anthem, particularly the third line: True patriot love in all they sons command.

The wording, Poy said Thursday in a release, "does not allow women to participate fully in the celebrations, nor does it acknowledge their important role in building Canada. "We want all Canadians to have the opportunity to command 'true patriot love' when they sing the national anthem on Canada Day and throughout the year."

Poy doesn't propose specific new lyrics, saying only that many Canadian would welcome a "simple but significant" change. She is working with the Famous Five Foundation to consult with music experts and linguists "to determine the best possible wording for an inclusive version," said the release. The senator has posted a petition on her Web site, www.sen.parl.gc.ca/vpoy, and on the Famous Five site, www.famous5.org, calling for an amendment to the national anthem.

The French-language anthem was first sung in June 1880, and the current English version is based on lyrics written in 1908. A special joint committee of the Senate and Commons recommended changes that became the official English version in 1968, and Parliament proclaimed O Canada the national anthem on July 1, 1980.


I'm relieved to find, after decades of hearing complaints about the US national anthem ("it's impossible to sing", "it's set to the tune of a drinking song", "it's about a battle in a war we lost", etc., etc.), that it ain't just us! Other people in other countries don't always like their anthems, either!

I wonder if this senator's petition ever resulted in any change or even any debate on the subject. Was the English version of "O Canada" revised... and what about the French version?

And what about you? Is your national anthem politically correct? Has it ever been politically corrected?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:05 PM

I wish they'd stop fucking with my national anthem...

PC feckwits!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM

I'd be surprised if any national anthem is politically correct. They are not designed to be. They're to make you feel pride in your nation Kindest regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM

Hee hee! Yep, that's pretty much my feeling on the subject, too!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM

The British Anthem is so embarassingly incorrect even the British don't sing it!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:13 PM

That last bit of giggling from me was in response to Clinton's comment! But I agree with Irish Sergeant, too, that they're not designed to be PC. After all, how could a national anthem possibly be changed to satisfy the anti-nationalist segment of the population? *G*


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: RichM
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:26 PM

All national anthems are exclusive: us versus them. Perhaps it's time to celebrate humanity's common heritage.

The internet is a good example of this; though I don't know how you would put it to music!

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Crane Driver
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

The trouble with the British nat. an. is that it's not about Britain, as such. It's an expression of personal loyalty to a dysfunctional Germano/ Greek dynasty that is increasingly irrelevant to most Britons. I feel a sense of belonging to Britain, not because it's particularly good, or well-run, but just because I'm a part of the place. But "Our Gracious Q." isn't part of my world at all, and I feel nothing when singing about her. So, as DMcG says, I don't.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:33 PM

One of myt vaourites s the Romanian one - here are the first two verses - and if you click on this you get the rest, and the link to the stirring tune. It has the effect in any international match of putting them psychologically on top, I reckon (they still tend to lose in the end, but with style):

Wake up, Romanian, from your deadly slumber,
In which barbaric tyrants kept you so long by force!
Now or never is the time for you to have a new fate,
Which should command respect of even your cruel enemies.

Now or never is the time for us to prove to the entire world
That in these arms a Roman blood still flows,
And that in our hearts we proudly keep a name
Triumphant in all battles, the name of Trajan.


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Subject: Lyr Add: ADVANCE AUSTRALIA FAIR
From: Helen
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:36 PM

The first line of the Oz anthem which was introduced in 1974 to replace God Save the Queen (I'm sure Quentin Crisp would have been the only person on the planet sorry to hear about that!) was changed from "Australia's sons" to "Australians all".

The main trouble with this song is that it is hard to sing. According to the official government site where I found the lyrics - because I don't know the words past the first 2 lines, because we sang it as an oddity when I was at school, and no-one knows the words unless they are paid to sing them at the footy or something - extensive research was done and this one was the clear cut winner. Well, it *can* sound good when a real singer sings it, but...

Also, it's an embarrassment reading these two lines given the illegal immigrant detention centre & Tampa affair scandals.

For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share;

Helen

ADVANCE AUSTRALIA FAIR

Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We've golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature's gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history's page, let every stage
Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.

Beneath our radiant Southern Cross
We'll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.


Advance Australia Fair http://www.pm.gov.au/aust_focus/nat_symbols/anthem.htm


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM

There can't really be a British national anthem since "Britain" isn't a nation, it's an assembly of nations. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have an anthem.

Personally I'd vote for this one - the suffragette anthem.


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Subject: Lyr Add: OI, SUOMI, KATSO
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:47 PM

Lloyd Stonee's 'Finlandia' appears in the Folk Tradition column of the current Singout! I love the song, but some history may be in order. Sibelius authorized the only official libretto to his song in 1942, (which follows) and it is rather bellicose, but remember, Finland was occupied by the Nazis at the time.

OI, SUOMI, KATSO
by Veikko Antero Koskenniemi, 1940

Oi, Suomi, katso, sinun päiväs' koittaa,
Yön uhka karkoitettu on jo pois,
Ja aamun kiuru kirkkaudessa soittaa,
Kuin itse taivahan kansi sois'.
Yön vallat aamun valkeus jo voittaa,
Sun päiväs' koittaa, oi synnyinmaa.
Oi, nouse, Suomi, nosta korkealle,
Pääs' seppelöimä suurten muistojen.
Oi, nouse, Suomi, näytit maailmalle,
Sa että karkoitit orjuuden,
Ja ettet taipunut sa sorron alle,
On aamus' alkanut, synnyinmaa.

Tr. J. Mark Sugars and Frank, 1998

Finland, behold, your day has now come dawning;
Banished is night, its menace gone with light,
Larks' song again in morning-brightness ringing,
Filling the air to heaven's great height,
And morning's glow, night's darkness overcoming;
Your day is come, o my native land.
O Finland, rise, stand proud, the future facing,
Your valiant deeds recalling, once again;
O Finland rise, in the world's sight erasing
From your fair brows vile slavery's stain.
You were not broken by oppressors ruling;
Your morn has come, o my native land.

There have been hundreds of other verses set to this music, including a piece in the Lutheran Hymnal called Be Still My Soul. Lloyd Stone, a hymn writer hymnself :-), born 1912, first wrote these lines 'This is my song' in 1934, published in 1981, and recorded by the Indigo Girls on their first album, as well as by Susan Osborne, Dar Williams and others. It is sometimes now referred to as traditionally those that have lost the connection to the author. I think it only appropriate that Lloyd Stone be remembered for writing what I, on my radio show, (using the Indigo Girls version as my theme song), referred to as 'The Rational Anthem', and hope everyone learns to sing it on any occasion that seems appropriate, or daily, whichever comes first!

Bill Kennedy


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM

Well I for one would love to see the Canadian National Anthem changed. I don't sing it that often anymore but when I was a student in school and had to sing it at every assembly and gathering, it used to piss me off that somehow males rated as far as their country went, but we females didn't. Doesn't bother me anymore, but for any young girl growing up in this country, I think its the least we can do.

The fact that the thing has been dicked with 23 times, once more couldn't hurt. Especially since the original words were not sexist, but were changed to "our sons command" during WWI to honour our troops overseas in Europe.

Go for it and its about bloody time too.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: allie kiwi
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 05:00 PM

I think one of the troubles with national anthems (aside from the sexism or irrelevance of the words) is that because everyone has to sing it at once it is never in a key to suit everyone. Same with church hymns.

A song does not sound good when sung by a third of the population screeching away because it's too high, another third singing one part ok but then dropping or raising an octave to try and sing the rest. Unfortunately, the ones who are having to do both of those things are usually the only ones who know all the words!

Allie


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:35 PM

"Advance Australia Fair" - not a patch on Waltzing Matilda, which most people assume is the Ozzie anthem anyway.

How can an island advance anywhere anyway? I hate mealy-mouthed anthems without a bit of swagger.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:44 PM

Kevin - never heard of continental drift ?

BTW what were the anti Scots verses of God Save the Queen/King - now confined to the "memory hole"

Speaking as a Welshman are we going to PC this to "Land of my Birth Parents ...."

Nevermind I recall one lunatic who wanted to rename Manchester to Personchester.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM

"We are sailing, we are sailing, we are sailing cross the sea..."

Now that could be a fair old anthem. No more meaningless than the rest, and I think they need to be a bit meaningless if they are going to work. (Like that Romanian one.)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM

I think the United States should toss the whole Strnagled banner bit and adopt "Teach Your Children Well....", or whatever its proper name is, by Sushie Rhoads and arranged by Crosby Stills and Nash, as a national anthem.

You, who are on the road
Must have a code,
That you can live by....
And so, become yourselves 
Because the past 
Is just a goodbye. 

Teach your children well 
Their father's hell 
Does slowly go by; 
And feed them on your dreams 
The ones they pick 
The ones you'll know by. 

Don't you ever ask them why 
If they told you, you would cry 
So just look at them and sigh 
And know they love you

But it would never get past the Republicans, sorry to say! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:12 PM

Gee, Amos, y'mean that last line wasn't part of the anthem? *BG*


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:23 PM

LOL!!

BTW the song was not by Sushie Rhoads...I just found the lyrics in an article she'd written. Mea culpa. I believe it is just credited to CS&N.

A


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM

I thought the first line of the Aussie national anthem was, "Once a jolly swagman sat beside a billibong," ;-)

And I always thought it was pretty telling that here in the U.S. our anthem is all about "bombs bursting in air"---if not on the ground.

Personally, if the Aussie anthem actually was "Waltzing Matilda", a fine song about a hobo that to survive steals a sheep and rather than get caught, drowns himself, I would much prefer it to any war-glorifying rant like "The Star Spangled Banner".

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:02 PM

"God Save the Queen" used to contain the wonderful stanza

O Lord our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks:
On Thee our hopes we fix.
God save us all!

It is true that "The Star-Spangled Banner" is a war song, but at least it piously sticks to defense. The "Marseillaise" is really bloodthirsty.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:10 PM

The Ozzies would do well to choose "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda".

Or maybe if they really insist on the original swagman ballad, they could give "TBPWM" to New Zealand? (ducks and runs out stage left....)

A


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM

Nobody ever started a war because they had a national anthem that can be termed bloodfthirsty.

Your "Star Spangled Banner" is about a small country (in terms of armed might) being attacked by a powerful country and holding on by its fingernails. The bombs and the rocket are British bombs and rockets raining down on an infant United States which hadn't as yet taken over someone else's continent. It's meant to be an anti-imperialist anthem.

As for it being hard to sing - hell, the tune is a drinking song. If you insist on trying to sing it when you're cold stone sober, no wonder it doesn't come out right.

Mock heroic anthems, genuine heroic anthems, songs about struggle, love songs, songs with currently meaningless historical references; even touristy stuff about how pretty the place is - they can all work. Anything except high-minded lyrics saying how we all love each other. Sometimes songs like that can be good songs; I don't think they can ever be good anthems.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM

The best Canadian anthem was "The Maple Leaf Forever" which was wildly incorrect. Great song, great words. Someone should have a go at it again. Although it is worth saying that "O Canada" is pretty good to sing -- witness the spontaneous singing at the hockey finals of the Olympics. Hard to imagine a spontaneous dose of "The Star Spangled Banner" (where is Whitney Houston when you need her?)

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:18 PM

The trouble with that Star Spangled Banner seems to be people trying to sing it in that over-inflated hyped-up way. At least every time I have come across it on the telly that has seemed to be the case. Sung straight and with a disregard for tearing emotions out of the lines, and I can't see why it's really any harder than the Marseilleise or the Soldiers Song.

Sing it as a folk song, which is what drinking songs are. A Rugby team in a pub wouldn't have any problems with it, if they'd ever had any reason to learn it. They play Rugby in Canada. (They had a team in the Rugby Union World Cup). They could send a team down and show them how it should be sung. (As well as demonstrating a rather better version of football. But maybe saying that counts as trolling.)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:20 PM

...but at least it piously sticks to defense.

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just.

And this be our motto--"In God is our Trust"


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,John Gray (at work )
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:33 PM

Advance Australia Fair. What a joke for an anthem. It works better than mogadons on me. Don't even know the words - not going to learn them - don't even stand when its played.
I've done numerous straw polls with young people, 16-25 years old, asking them if they know the meaning of these lyrics ; advance Australia fair, girt by sea and, in joyful strains. About one in ten can give me a half reasonable answer. So, what's the point in having it as an anthem when the majority of the people don't even know what the lyrics mean. I reckon, in joyful strains, means being told you've won the lottery whilst you're badly constipated.
Yes, Waltzing Matilda would be much better or even I Am Australian, a song written by Bruce Woodley, ex Seekers fame. A great tune with great lyrics, maybe someone with the requisite equipment can post it.

JG/FME


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:34 PM

You won't see the Star spangled banner being sung drunk if our Attorney General has his way. He had the statue of Justice covered because it showed a wee bit of bosom. The man could not get elected running against a dead guy so now we have to have him running the Justice Department. There is soomething tterribly wrong here (Oh Yeah! It's the Neo-Reaganistas!) I'm for making our national anthem "This Land is Your Land" by Woodie Guthrie but the Republicans won't go for that either Neil


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:58 PM

Actually beating a dead man isn't that easy. I'm sure Bush would have lost by even more votes if Al Gore had had the foresight to kick his clogs during the run-up to the election.

And that probably goes for most politicians. After all, people say much nicer things about them when they've gone to glory.

Sooner or later someone's going to twig that. Fake a death a couple of days before the election, get swept into office on the strength of people listening to the people saying what a great guy you were. Then miraculously emerge with a smart cover story about mistaken identity.

Rather radical thread drift there. But to get back on topic again - Greg F's logic seems a bit suspect to me. If you are defending yourself against attack, you hope your side will ultimately be victorious. In other words that you will "conquer". And that is at least how the war of 1812 was interpreted in the USA.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:06 PM

"This Land Is Your Land" would be a superb national anthem. It's inclusive and passionate at the same time. It was once a protest song, in its original version.

Most national anthems are by their very nature rather grandiose and martial, emphasizing the divisions of humanity...and most of them are anachronistic, out of date in the sentiments they proclaim.

As for the Canadian one, the words have been tinkered with quite a bit in an attempt to offend no one...which I find offensive! :-) But I'm not too excited about the issue. Who really cares?

I don't know what the words were in the old Soviet national anthem (probably the same old silly stuff as usual), but the music was really magnificent! I used to look forward to hearing it at Russia-Canada hockey games. They generally just played the music, rather than having a singer do it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:02 AM

I'm quite partial to The Star Spangled Banner, with being a Marylander and an 1812 Reenactor. It IS quite a range strecher.

Here's my proposal: During "peace" times we declare that America the Beautiful to be our anthem. As a sabre rattling gesture, we periodically declare The Star Spangled Banner to be the anthem...

Look Out, Saddam, or we'll let loose with To Anacreon in Heaven!

WD
(<--Insert pithy tagline here-->)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:06 AM

As I mentioned the Canadian anthem has been changed 23 times, Little Hawk, and despite that, it still is exclusive of more than half the population of Canada.

The feeling I had when I sang it when I was young was sort of, I imagine, how the Canadian men's hockey team might have felt singing Helen Reddy's "I Am Woman" before each game. Huh?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: alison
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:16 AM

scroll down to the bottom for I am Australian... a wonderful song

but Eric Bogle's Shelter still gets my vote for what should be our national anthem
especially poigniant for the lines

"To the homeless and the hungry may you always open doors,
may the restless and the weary find safe harbour on your shores."

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:54 AM

THE ANTI SCOTTISH VERSE IS:-

LORD GRANT THAT MARSHALL WADE
MAY BY THY MIGHTY AID VICTORY BRING,
MAY HE SEDITION AND LIKE TORRENT RUSH
REBELLIOUS SCOTS TO CRUSH GOD SAVE THE KING/QUEEN

And they expect the Scots to sing the National Anthem.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,Offspring
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 04:14 AM

McGrath of Harlow write There can't really be a British national anthem since "Britain" isn't a nation, it's an assembly of nations. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have an anthem

I *love* the idea of the British Conglomerate anthem!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 04:15 AM

That was the first and third verses of "Advance Australia Fair" up above. the second verse goes:

When gallant Cook from Albion sailed
To trace wide oceans o'er.
True British courage bore him on,
till he landed on our shore.
Then here he raised Old England's flag,
The standard of the brave,
With all her faults, we love her still,
Britannia rules the wave.
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Asutralia fair."

P. D. McCormick, 1878. It certainly reflects Victorian times and the greatest emoire the world has known. Have three guesses why nobody sings that verse much!

It is a solid, fairly majestic tune, though, and despite what the proponents of "Waltzing Matilda" might say, I'd prefer not to have national anthem about the suicide of s sheep thief. The real solution is probably to get a decent set of words to either tune, with the popuar vote probably being for "Waltzing Matilda."


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:04 AM

Just two 'nationally anthem' thingies. In the 50's,60's & into the 70's. Certain venues in Northern Ireland had in the contracts of bands that played that they must finish with 'God Save the Queen' i had a wonderfull John Mayall's Bluesbreakers Live Album which had Eric Clapton and all having to play this otherwise they wern't going to get paid.Also during the late sixties the Republic of Ireland chose a soccer player from QPR who had a Italian surname but had a great granny who was Oirish. When he played his first match they were lined up for the anthems and he turned to his colleague and said 'Bloody hell their anthem goes on a bit' to be met with the response 'Shut up you dozy pillock it's our anthem'


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:12 AM

Helen - Advance Australia Fair

"Also, it's an embarrassment reading these two lines given the illegal immigrant detention centre & Tampa affair scandals.

For those who've come across the seas We've boundless plains to share;"

No more bloody embarrassing than the following lines from the proposed alternative from alison:

"Eric Bogle's Shelter still gets my vote for what should be our national anthem especially poigniant for the lines

"To the homeless and the hungry may you always open doors, may the restless and the weary find safe harbour on your shores."

Both about a country whose politicians unofficially maintained a hidden policy of apartheid for decades - nice one.

Kevin - go read about the War of 1812 particularly about one of the main protagonists during the early stages - the Indian leader Tecumseh(Sp??) - He fought on the British side against the Americans. Britain did not invade, or even threaten to invade America - It was America that attacked Canada for extremely self interested motives of their own at all times throughout the conflict they held military superiority - Hells teeth they fighting on home ground - thankfully not very well.

"Your "Star Spangled Banner" is about a small country (in terms of armed might) being attacked by a powerful country and holding on by its fingernails. The bombs and the rocket are British bombs and rockets raining down on an infant United States which hadn't as yet taken over someone else's continent. It's meant to be an anti-imperialist anthem."

Don't know if the date rings any bells Kev, but if memory serves me correctly there was a chap called Napoleon wandering around Europe at the time knocking seven shades of crap out of everybody. The Americans decided on having a go at at driving the British out of Canada, but more importantly for them it gave them the excuse to break a treaty previously made with the Indians that would allow them (America) to expand westwards into the Warbash-Ohio Basin. Preoccupied elsewhere Britain sent minimal forces to protect Canada, so your statement about poor feeble infant America standing up to the imperialist might of Britain just was not the case - this might not fall in with your dearer held beliefs, but those are facts. With the asbolute minimum of support the Canadians of that time i.e. Brits, Frenchmen and Indians. Successfully fought off numerous invasion attempts during 1812 and 1814. The Star Spangled Banner relates to the raid and attack on Fort Henry by British forces stationed in Canada. The raid went on to sack Washington, burning the White House in the process. Having accomplished their mission those forces withdrew.

Interesting side line. When President Reagan visited the UK and attended a dinner given him by Margaret Thatcher at Apsley House he should have felt very much at home. The dinner service he used was that taken from the White House during that raid. It was then presented to the Duke of Wellington (Apsley House was his London home gifted to him by the nation).

In one of your posts above you say:

"I hate mealy-mouthed anthems..."

Then earlier you posted the text of what, in your opinion, you believe to be the best national anthem - that of Romania.

Having read through the lyrics - Boy they don't come any more mealy mouthed than that!!! - It's a bloody wonder anyone can sing it and keep a straight face. Romania's worst enemies were themselves - we are talking about the country that allied itself with Nazi Germany aren't we?

As for God Save the Queen - I take a sort of pride as a Scot for our mention in one of the original verses, where the exhortation is ".....rebellious Scots to crush". Brilliant at least they realised we were on the pitch.

Amos - How could you!!! *LOL* - "Teach Your Children Well". With that as a national anthem it would have the added attraction for the rest of the world in watching American athletes at the Olympics running backwards in order to ensure that they do not have to take part in any award ceremony.

On national anthems - I'm with Billy 'The Big Yin' - The theme music from "The Archers" should be Britains national anthem, nice jolly tune with a bit of bounce in it - would love to see how the English, and I stress English, football hooligans get revved up on that when it gets played at the World, or European, Cup competitions.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 07:08 AM

I hate the whole anthem thing...........Just seems to me that you oughta' feel good singin' yours and all. So many of them are just packed with jingoistic crappola and pretentious crud.............

Why don't we here in the US adopt "This Land" or probably more acceptable "America the Beautiful" or any number of things that make you feel good and are fun to sing? Beats me..........

And the Aussies? "AAF" is just about the ultimate in contrived crap. Any number of other suggestions have a lot more in both tunes and words. Now I understand that there may be problems with "Waltzing Matilda" from several standpoints, but damn if it ain't really inspiring to hear a bunch of Aussies spontaneously bursting into it as they did in Newport in '83 when Australia II won the "America's Cup." Everyday when AII came in from a race, no matter whether they won or lost, the piers, breakwater, and the docks just EXPLODED with "Waltzing Matilda." You had to be there to believe it. Hell, A lot of US were singing it too....You felt that good!!! (and Connor is an ass anyway) Any song so associated with a country and one that makes folks seem to feel so damn good, NEEDS to be an anthem.......no matter what it's about and no matter how PC it isn't!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 07:21 AM

For any country dissatisfied with their currrent anthem(or any newly emerging countries wanting something suitable) I have written one which I think takes care of all necessary sentiments. " I love(insert name of country), I love it day and night/ We are bloody wonderful and all the rest are shite". It's short ( doesn't go on and on like Star Spangled Banner), to the point, and I don't think anybody could disagree with the contents.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 07:54 AM

A minor addition to Teribus's exhortation: if memory serves, the attack from Canada wasn't strictly speaking on the White House. Wasn't it painted pink at the time?

sian


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Subject: Lyr Add: YOUR STATE'S NAME HERE (L & P Berryman)
From: Grab
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:37 AM

One song everyone's missed. If you've not heard it, she sings the main bits while he sings the bits in brackets.

ARTIST: Lou and Peter Berryman
TITLE: Your State's Name Here

Sometimes when the grass is blown by the breeze
There's a far away look in the leaves of the trees
A memory returns, heartbreakingly clear
Of a place I call home, [Your state's name here]

No sky could be deeper, no water so clear
As back in the meadows of [Your state's name here]
I'm gonna go back, although I don't know when
There's no other place like [Your state's name again]

{Chorus:}
Oh [Your state's name here], Oh [Again], what a state
I have not been back since [a reasonable date]
Where the asphalt grows soft in July every year
In the warm summer mornings of [Your state's name here]

My grampa would come and turn on the game
And fall asleep drinking [Your local beer's name]
While gramma would sing in the garden for hours
To all of [The names of indigeonous flowers]

The songs that she sang were somewhat obscure
She learned from the local townspeople I'm sure
The language they use is not very clear
Like [Place a colloquialism right here].

{Refrain} I'd love to wake up where [The state songbird] sings
Where they manufacture [The names of some things]
Like there on the bumper, a sticker so clear
An I, then a heart, and then [Your state's name here]

Whisper it soft, it's a song to my ear
[Your state's name here, your state's name here]
It's there I was born & it's there I'll grow old
By the rivers of blue and the arches of gold...

{Refrain}


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:47 AM

Kevin (McGrath)says, "As for [The Star-Spangled Banner] being hard to sing - hell, the tune is a drinking song. If you insist on trying to sing it when you're cold stone sober, no wonder it doesn't come out right."

Yeah, the Major League Baseball folks have been doing it wrong for decades: they really should have everyone stand and sing the song at the end of the game, after everyone's been drinking beer for nine innings! *G*


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: AKS
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:01 AM

First re: Bill Kennedy, a minor;-) correction: Finland was NEVER occupied during nor after the WWII, neither by the nazis nor by the Soviet.

Koskenniemi wrote the libretto to Finlandia shortly after the Winter War (Dec 1939 - Mar -40). Finland had just survived a massive offence by the Soviet Union, and was forced to cede a considerable amount of territory ('the ceded Karelia') and relocate the +400.000 people (c. 10 % of all) that had lived there. That - added the fact that Finland had to do it on her own; practically no help from outside - is what explains the mood of the text.

Yes, I'd much rather hear Finlandia - if any, in that respect I second Spaw - as our anthem. It is a fine piece of composition alltogether, emotional, but not especially military by nature and can be played as short or full version, or sung, to suit any occasion. I think most Finns agree that it does sound "finnish".

On the other hand, I find very little finnishness in J. L. Runeberg's (poet) and F. Pacius' (composer, originally a German who came to teach music in Helsinki) "Maamme" (=our land, written and sung originally in Swedish 'O, fosterland'). It's simply boring! Also it is quite commonly believed here that our Friedrich chap didn't really bother to compose it at all, he simply took an (boring) old Bavarian drinking song that he thought might fit into the rhyme ... The Estonians have the same melody in their anthem ("Mu isamaa" 'my father's land') as well.

And finally a quiz question: What was Biafra's (now part of Nigeria) national anthem during her short period of indepence some 30 y's ago? (Finlandia)

cheers AKS


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SOLDIER'S SONG
From: The Pooka
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:02 AM

Care to sanitize, pacify, update & "de-exaggerate" this one? :)

The Soldier's Song

We'll sing a song, a soldier's song,
With cheering rousing chorus,
As round our blazing fires we throng,
The starry heavens o'er us;
Impatient for the coming fight,
And as we wait the morning's light,
Here in the silence of the night,
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Chorus:
Soldiers are we whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin's cause, come woe or weal
'Mid cannons' roar and rifles peal,
We'll chant a soldier's song

In valley green, on towering crag,
Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag
That's proudly floating o'er us.
We're children of a fighting race,
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march, the foe to face,
We'll chant a soldier's song

Chorus

Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale!
The long watched day is breaking;
The serried ranks of Inishfail
Shall set the Tyrant quaking.
Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silv'ry glow,
Out yonder waits the Saxon foe,
So chant a soldier's song.

Chorus


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:11 AM

Hi there Greg - Your offering is definitely THE BEST national anthem - Absolutely Brilliant!!!

Thanks Sian, I'd no idea what colour it was. There was an old wife's tale, totally incorrect, that as a result of the sacking of Washington, the walls of the Presidential residence was so severely scorched that it could not be cleaned. As a solution to the problem they painted it white - hence White House.

I love(insert name of country), I love it day and night
We are bloody wonderful and all the rest are shite".

Brilliant - absolutely - Brilliant.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THIS IS MY SONG, O GOD OF ALL THE NATIONS
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:43 AM

Thanks, AKS, yes, I wrote that a bit hastily, I knew the lyrics were written in response to something going on in the thirties, didn't think it through or look it up, the way I have to do more of these days (if we knew all the things we've forgotten, boy we'd know a lot!) 'O must have been the Nazis', I mis-remembered. Yes, the Winter War.

And I forgot to include the lyrics of Lloyd Stone, for those that don't know them, and to also mention Bill Staines recording among the others. So, here is the
'Rational Anthem'

The first two verses are Lloyd Stones, 1934, the third verse was written by Georgia Harkness in 1939, and is much more religious to my taste, it is included in some Hymnals, but not sung on the recordings mentioned. I would stick with the two verses of Stone's, but I add it here for thouroughness.

THIS IS MY SONG, O GOD OF ALL THE NATIONS
Lloyd Stone
Tune: FINLANDIA, Jean Sibelius, 1899

This is my song, O God of all the nations,
A song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
Here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;
But other hearts in other lands are beating
With hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
And sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
But other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations,
A song of peace for their land and for mine.

later third verse -
(This is my prayer, O Ruler of all nations:
Let thy reign come; on earth thy will be done.
In peace may all earth's people draw together,
And hearts united learn to live as one.)
O hear my prayer, thou God of all the nations;
Myself I give thee; let thy will be done.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:03 AM

Pooka wrote:Care to sanitize, pacify, update & "de-exaggerate" this one? :)

Well, I don't know about "de-exaggerating" -- Hyperbole has its place, too, you know...

The Soldier's Song

We'll sing a song, a soldier's song,
change to: "We'll sing a song, a people's song ?

With cheering rousing chorus, (that's fine, I think)
As round our blazing fires we throng, (ditto)
The starry heavens o'er us; (ditto)
Impatient for the coming fight,
change to: We're eager for to do what's right

And as we wait the morning's light,
(fine) Here in the silence of the night,


We'll chant a soldier's song. people's song


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:09 AM

(oops!) I missed a closing angle bracket. My comment about the "Silence of the night" line" was that with all this rousing singing going on, the night isn't going to be very silent. ;-) But you need something there for the rhyme scheme...


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:15 AM

"... how the Canadian men's hockey team might have felt singing Helen Reddy's "I Am Woman" before each game. " Sounds a great idea. I wouldn't envy anyone facing against a team of men who had had the balls to sing that in public. Think "A Boy named Sue".


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM

More nitpicking:
Teribus - clearly you have a different definition of mealy-mouthed from me, if you see it as having something to do with making too much sense. Mealy-mouthed means being reluctant to say what you are thinking. Greg Stephens anthem is a splendid summary of not being mealy mouthed, and the Romanian one is essentially the same, but in more flowery language. With a great tune - and tunes are what matters in an anthem, the words just float along on the top.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

And a third slice (that's how the net is working today, it seems)

1812 - I hedged on this, since I don't know much about it. "...that is at least how the war of 1812 was interpreted in the USA". The point, whatever it was about and however it started, it was a big imperial power on one side and a relatively weak country on the other. And at that time the relatively weak country was the USA and the big imperial power was not.

An Italian thinking the Soldier's Song, especially in it's abbreviated match version, was too long? Ever heard the Italian version - which is splendid, but hardly brief. (Here it is


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

My gosh, some of these lyrics are lame! I think I'm gonna be an advocate for STRICTLY INSTRUMENTAL National Anthems. Write new inspirational catchy tunes, and just have the Populace HUM along proudly. Any country that doesn't have a tune inspirational enough to send it's kids off to the Army recruitment office can hire Andrew Lloyd Webber or someone to do the notes.

I LOVE the one that goes...Hmmmmmmm, hmm, hmm, hmmmmmmmmummmm.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:03 PM

Metchosin - Having everyone sing "I Am Woman" at the beginning of every football/hockey/whatever game is a wonderful idea! I'm for it 100%! It would be downright hilarious, and besides, I never attend such games nor do I watch them, but I would tune in just to hear the song and then go and do something (almost anything) else more interesting. Well, I'd tune in once or twice anyway, till the novelty wore off... :-)

God, I can just see the look on Don Cherry's face...LOL!

Here's my updated version of "O Canada":

O Canada
Our home and native soil
Regional hate is rising to the boil
The French are outlawing English now
And the English hate Quebec
The politicians are heartless frauds
They took away my welfare cheque
(*DUM...DUM...DUM...) O Canada
Give me a break
Mike Harris says the poor should "eat some cake"
I say let's drown the bastard
INNNN...MEEEEEECCHHH...LAKE!!!

- LH


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:57 PM

Little Hawk, I like that one....ain't that the truth.*BG*. I'm not going to get my shirt in a knot over this one, in the grand scheme of things, changing one word is a pretty minor thing to do and its not as if the precedence for changes of it, has not already been set.

But what really surprises me is the vehemence of some who want it left alone. Sort of reminds me of my father, when I was small, when he wouldn't allow my brother and I to sing "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" because everyone knows that Santa only has eight reindeer. But then again, our Dad was a pretty twisted individual.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:01 PM

A strictly instrumental anthem? The GDR's National Anthem came very close to that. In the last twenty years of the GDR's existence it was never sung, only played and the lyrics were more or less out of print and a person who dared to cite/sing them could be fined. They were completely un-PC from the government's point of view:

Resurrected from ruins
looking towards the future
let us serve you to a good end
Germany, common fatherland.

I guess you can spot the un-PC line.

By the way, Russia actually had an anthem without lyrics from 1991 to 2000. It was so unpopular it had to be changed.

A trivia question on anthems: Which English speaking country and which German speaking country use the same tune for their respective national anthems?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:16 PM

Same tune: the UK, Switzerland, and a quite a few more.Including the USA, if you count My Country Tis of You. I can't understand it - it's not a great tune.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

Wrong. Swiss anthem for comparison.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 02:07 PM

Tam - Thanks, it will do very nicely at the Arms Park, or Pubs around !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

I suppose it depends on what counts as a National Anthem, Wolfgang. I've got a book of National Anthems here which gves the one you did, but also as an alternative "Rufst du, mein Vaterland/O monts independants" which has the God Save the Queen tune, and it is described as "A popular national song, used on many occasions." Maybe you're referring to Liechtenstein, which uses the same tune.

I wonder what happens when two countries with the same national anthem tune have a football match.

The German national anthem tune is used as a hymn tune in England. I think this has caused some confusion on occasions.


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Subject: Lyr Add: O CANADA
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM

From the Full History of O Canada at this site here are some of the versions of O Canada that have appeared in English since it was first penned in French by Calixa Lavallée in 1880:

"English Canada in general probably first heard "O Canada" when school children sang it when the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall (later King George V and Queen Mary) toured Canada in 1901. Five years later Whaley and Royce in Toronto published the music with the French text and a translation into English made by Dr. Thomas Bedford Richardson, a Toronto doctor. The Mendelssohn Choir used the Richardson lyrics in one of their performances about this time and Judge Routhier and the French press complimented the author.

Richardson version:

O Canada! Our fathers' land of old
Thy brow is crown'd with leaves of red and gold.
Beneath the shade of the Holy Cross
Thy children own their birth
No stains thy glorious annals gloss
Since valour shield thy hearth.
Almighty God! On thee we call
Defend our rights, forfend this nation's thrall,
Defend our rights, forfend this nation's thrall.

In 1908 Collier's Weekly inaugurated its Canadian edition with a competition for an English text to Lavallée's music. It was won by Mercy E. Powell McCulloch, but her version did not take.

McCulloch version :

O Canada! in praise of thee we sing;
From echoing hills our anthems proudly ring.
With fertile plains and mountains grand
With lakes and rivers clear,
Eternal beauty, thos dost stand
Throughout the changing year.
Lord God of Hosts! We now implore Bless our dear land this day and evermore,
Bless our dear land this day and evermore.

Since then many English versions have been written for "O Canada". Poet Wilfred Campbell wrote one. So did Augustus Bridle, Toronto critic. Some were written for the 1908 tercentenary of Quebec City. One version became popular in British Columbia...

Buchan version:

O Canada, our heritage, our love
Thy worth we praise all other lands above.
From sea to see throughout their length
From Pole to borderland,
At Britain's side, whate'er betide
Unflinchingly we'll stand
With hearts we sing, "God save the King",
Guide then one Empire wide, do we implore,
And prosper Canada from shore to shore.

However the version that gained the widest currency was made in 1908 by Robert Stanley Weir, a lawyer and at the time Recorder of the City of Montréal. This is the version which was published in an official form for the Diamond Jubilee of Confederation in 1927, and has since been generally accepted in English speaking Canada. "

Weir version:

Oh Canada from "After Ypres and Other Verse" by Robert Stanley Weir (The Musson Book Company, Ltd., Toronto, 1917)):

O Canada! Our Home and Native Land!
True patriot-love in all thy sons command;
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North, strong and free,
And stand on guard, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, glorious and free!
We stand on guard for thee!

O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,
Great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow,
How dear to us thy broad domain,
From East to Western Sea;
Thou land of hope for all who toil!
Thou True North, strong and free!
O Canada, glorious and free!
We stand on guard for thee!

O Canada! Beneath thy shining skies
May stalwart sons and gentle maidens rise,
To keep thee steadfast through the years,
From East to Western Sea.
Our Fatherland, our Motherland!
Our True North, strong and free!
O Canada, glorious and free!
We stand on guard for thee!

Ruler Supreme, Who hearest humble prayer,
Hold our dominion in Thy loving care.
Help us to find, O God, in Thee,
A lasting, rich reward,
As waiting for the Better Day
We ever stand on guard.
O Canada, glorious and free!
We stand on guard for thee!

So much for unbending, unchanging tradition.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:16 PM

I submit this song, from the musical Ragtime as a good general anthem (yes, it places more emphesis on "brothers" and "men", but in the story, it is being sung my a man to an audience of men):

Go out and tell our story.
Let it echo far and wide.
Make them hear you,
Make them hear you.

How justice was our battle
And how justice was denied.
Make them hear you,
Make them hear you.

And say to those who blame us
For the way we chose to fight
That sometimes there are battles
That are more than black or white...
(that should quiet those who complain about up-pc history ;-))
And I could not put down my sword
When justice was my right.
Make them hear you.
Go out and tell our story
To your daughters and your sons.
Make them hear you,
Make them hear you.

And tell them, in our struggle,
We were no the only ones.
Make them hear you,
Make them hear you.

Your sword can be a sermon
Or the power of the pen.
Teach every child to raise his voice
(I particulary like these lines)
And then, my brothers, then
Will justice be demanded
By ten million righteous men.
Make them hear you.
When they hear you,
I'll be near you
Again.

Okay, so maybe we can't adopt that exact song as an anthem (copyright issues and all), but I think it captures the feelings you want to express in an anthem (a good one, anyway): Pride in your history, and a reminder to keep working toward an even better future.

I agree with McGrath: I think the Suffragette anthem does all of that wonderfully. But with today's political climate, and the general nervousness about theocracies, the line:

". . . thunder of freedom -- the voice of the Lord!" might be considered un-pc by the nitpickers.

But that could easily be changed to: the voice of us all!, even if it doesn't rhyme...


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:53 PM

Whale oil beef... I did not know "Oh Canada" was sexist. Just never occured to me, I guess. I always thought "thy Son's command" was a reference to JC himself, which would, of course, by today's PC standards, be even worse.

As far as the comments that the US anthem isn't "pretty", I think just the opposite. I think it's the most "singable" and emotional of any I have heard. I kinda like it, especially when done solo, no instrumental, by someone who can sing it.

But, the most shocking thing I have read in this thread is the assertion that there were only eight tiny reindeer. There were, as everyone SHOULD know, ten !!!!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:58 PM

right gnu...seems to me I should remember this old joke, but I'll bite...who were the other two?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 04:15 PM

Well, you mentioned Rudy the Red. The other was Olive.

BTW, how's the old dog doin ? Still in the prime ?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 04:46 PM

argh...of course! the one that used to laugh and call him names.

Maddy is right as rain again, thanks gnu, unfortunately old Wort's kidneys are starting to fail, but he's still hanging in there.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 07:46 PM

It is true that "The Star-Spangled Banner" contains the phrase "conquer we must", which sounds aggressive in isolation; but in the context where it occurs ("O, thus, be it e'er when free men shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation. Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the Heav'n-rescued land Praise the Power" etc.), I think one may charitably take "conquer" to mean merely "be victorious"

The trouble with the tune is not, IMO, that people try to fancy it up; it is that the bare tune has a range of an octave & a fifth. Possibly even a majority of people can manage that if they are allowed their own key; but for a crowd to sing it together is out of the question. In the days of barbershop quartets & Christmas carols, enough people might have known the parts to make a fair show of it, but not any more.

When De Gaulle announced that he was pulling the French out of Algeria, he avoided whatever response his audience might have had in mind my leading them in the Marseillaise. Fancy Nixon trying that on us! We'd still be in Vietnam.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM

In the days of Christmas Carols? Still plenty of those around where I live anyway.

Nixon wasn't De Gaulle. If the French had the Star Spangled Banner, they'd wouldn't be frightened of singing it. (The English would - they are even more hung up about not making fools of themselves than the Americans, which is what it's really all about.)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: campion
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:49 PM

Peader Kearney, who penned the Irish National Anthem, was uncle to Brendan Behan. Circa 1955, the Irish American playwright JP Donleavy had his play, The Ginger Man, closed down in Dublin due to pressure from the archbishop and government leaders, as it "suggested" that the protagonist "had it away" with a woman not his wife. The leading role was played by the young Richard Harris- it was his first big role. Shaken by the play being shut down, the angry and somewhat pair of Harris and Donleavt made their way to the Bailey where they were comforted by Behan, Patrick Kavanaugh, and a host of other Irish literary luminaries, none of whom, Donleavy related, had even bothered to see the play. Behan remarked that the closing down of the Ginger Man was "the saddest night in Irish history," and that although his uncle [Peader Kearney] had written the national anthem, "we'd have been better served if he had written 'We Ain't Got No Bananas.'"


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:13 AM

Pooka:

Sorry this is late, but I had clients to care for. However, I propose the following to "sanitize" your "Soldier's Song":

The Child's Song


We'll sing a song, a children's song,
With cheering rousing chorus,
As round our parents' hearths we throng,
A safe roof warm o'er us;
Impatient for our coming lives,
Awaiting what the mornings give,
Here in the silence of the night,
We'll chant a children's song.

Chorus:
Children are we whose lives will flower in Ireland;
Dreaming to free  the green land of our homes.
Yearning to be whole,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall run with blood, or dream on broken bones.
Tonight we walk into a future
In Erin's hope, come woe or smiles
And stepping into newer, kindlier miles,
We'll chant a children's song

In valley green, on towering crag,
Our fathers lovingly taught us,
And conquered hatred in a hope for times
We'd bring the lives they bought us.
We're children of an ancient loving race,
That knows that bringing joy brings no disgrace,
And as we grow, tomorrow's hopes to face,
We'll chant a children's song

Chorus

Sons of the Gael! Daughters of the Pale!
The long watched day now dawns;
The risingranks of future life
Shall move our music on.
Our heart's fires now are warming high;
See in the east a silv'ry light,
Out yonder wait brave futures bright,
So chant a children'ssong.

Chorus

Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: CapriUni
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:21 AM

:::Claps wildly:::

That's beautiful, Amos!

I can't really see a group of 50-something guys with beer bellies and various amounts of stubble on their chin singing this song with much gusto.

... Though, if they did, the world would be a better place


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:35 AM

Capri:

I'm honored; thanks!

A


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,ciarili
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:14 AM

Well now, where to start...kinda felt like a good rebuttal was in order toward the Knucklehead bashing all the non-Dems/Thought-Police of America....

I like God Bless America, but that would never get past the Democrats, who at this point are but thinly veiled Socialists, something they share with the Nazi party. (After all, who's responsible for all the PC crap in the first place?) That little bit about God couldn't possibly fly, because it sounds Christian, which equals evil to a PC-conscious leftist. Never mind the special considerations given to every other religious group on the planet, or that you can think of God as whatever you conceive him to be. A rose by any other name....

"Teach your children well" is primary in the thoughts of non-Democrat-Socialists, actually. That means taking education (never meant to be in the purvue of the Federal Government in the first place - duh) out of the hands of the Federal Government because it has failed miserably! Remember that little thing about "provide for the common defense?" Nothing in there about education, federal welfare, abortion, etc., etc.. So, I'm not sure whose political sentiments above are misguided, but it ain't us regular folks who have decided that everybody has to think like we do or they're evil commie bastards!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:59 AM

Correction, the original lyrics of O Canada were composed by Sir Adolphe-BasileRouthier. I don't know if they have ever been revised, but they bear no resemblance whatsoever to the English version.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:23 AM

Amos accredited another author to "Teach Your Children". Was it not actually Graham Nash, a native of the great American city of Manchester? I like the song, but it only really sounds good when sung in three part harmony. For that you need three or more people who can simultaneously hold different lines of melody. It is not always possible to find a group of folk who can simultaneously hold one. And Rick, believe me, if Andrew Lloyd Webber ever pens the national anthem of my country, high treason shall become my hobby, my passion and religious persuasion...


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:28 AM

Just an afterthought for Rick and Little Hawk. Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber made a promise that he would emigrate if Labour ever won an election. It is about time this promise was made good. Is there any prospect of you guys putting in a word at your Immigration Office?


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Subject: Lyr Add: CONVICT STREAK
From: John Gray
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 07:06 AM

Okay, so rather than just not liking Advance Australia Fair, let's be really politically incorrect.
Dave Warner from his album in the late 70's, Dave Warner's From The Suburbs - Mug's Game.

Convict Streak.

Maybe its because of our convict streak
We want to fight everyone we meet
Anzac Day is our day of the year
We march our march, we drink our beer
We don't like Slopes, we don't like Yanks
I'd personally like to blow up every Commie tank
We're only few but wee fought in'nam
Packed our guns alongside Uncle Sam

Ask any of us, it were no sin
The only crime was that we didn't win and
The Poms are weak as piss, the French are queer
The Germans are wankers but they make good beer
Don't criticize what you don't understand
If you think I'm talkin' shit you don't belong in this land

I'm an Australian, we all are
We watch the tele and we drive our car
But don't you ever say we're weak
Or you'll learn all about our Convict Streak
The world began with Adam and Eve
But Australia started at Gallipoli
Our fathers put the desert into desert rats
Their uncles slipped the boots in up in Landers Flats
Don't criticize what you don't understand
It's not that we're behind the times
We're a different land

We might be slobs but we're not weak
maybe its because of our convict streak
The Poms are weak as piss, the French are queer
The Germans are wankers but they make good beer
Don't criticize what you don't understand
If you think I'm talkin' shit you don't belong in this land

I'm Australian, so are you
It doesn't matter if you're Ding or Jew
But just remember while you're here
You march our march you drink our beer.

JG/FME


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: John Gray
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 07:12 AM

Aaaaarrrrggghhh still can't get the double spacing and "Packed our guns----- is supposed to be a line of its own.

JG/FME


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM

Loved it. No competition,is there?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM

Yes, Lichtenstein it is and I meant the National anthem (like which is played in the case of a gold medal at the Olympics) and not just a popular hymn.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM

That's a neat bit of rewriting Amos, and very singable too. But I think if I'd sooner keep the lines there of the original and imagine I was off on a camping adventure. Especially if I was a child.

I think I'd feel it was a bit too cosy with the nice warm fire on the hearth and the roof over me instead of the blazing campfire and the starry heavens.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM

But essentially I think National Anthems should resist change, and represent a kind oif crystallization of some crucial moment in the history of the nation. That's why I like the Polish one, wioth it "March! March, Dabrowski!" and reference to Napoleon - and it's stately tune.

That's why I think Americans should value their one. (And thta's another reason why God Save the Queen is more dispensable than most, because the historic moment it is associated in it's origin is the putting down of the Forty-Five.)

But I love the way that National Anthems page I keep linking to in this thread has as it's slogan "Make Love, not war!", along with all the falgs and anthems of the world. That's the spirit! Here is the Iraqi one.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:02 PM

I meant keep those lines in that first verse, Amos, so it would read:

We'll sing a song, a children's song, With cheering rousing chorus, As round our blazing fires we throng, The starry heavens o'er us; Impatient for our coming lives, Awaiting what the mornings give, Here in the silence of the night, We'll chant a children's song.

Though I'd see it as a version for children to sing, at least at first. If they grew up with it and took it to their hearts, that would be the way it would have a right to become a national anthem.

The thing about the Soldiers Song is that it wasn't imposed on people by any government committee - it came up from below, and only got printed years after it caught on among prisoners of war in the campsSee this recent thread about it.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: allie kiwi
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:23 PM

Regarding A Soldiers Song... can some tell me when the words changed a little? I'm from an ex-pat Irish family and we always sing "Tonight we man the bhearna baoghail" not "Tonight we man the gap of danger"

Allie


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM

Re Soldier's Song - Amos - belatedly, thanks! Very very good. I agree with the sentiments of course.

McGrath of H. also, thanks for (as always) good info.

allie kiwi - yeah I also learned it with "bhearna baoghail"--the one bit of Irish surviving into the English tranlation, I guess; presumably for the rhyme with "woe or weal". I had copied/pasted lyrics from somewhere or other; I presume "gap of danger" (which I *had* seen before, too) is a translation thereof.

I've sometimes thought that in the unlikely event Ireland were to change her anthem again (I believe it used to be "God Save Ireland"), maybe "Come By The Hills" would be nice. / OK, a bit wimpy --- but nice.

allie kiwi (admittedly I'm guessing here, from your name) -- but this one's pretty good, IMO (as with The Soldier's Song, I'm pasting only the English version):

God of nations at thy feet-
In the bonds of love we meet-
Hear our voices we entreat-
God defend our free land.-
Guard Pacific's triple star-
From the shafts of strife and war-
Make her praises heard afar-
God defend New Zealand.-
-
Men of ev'ry creed and race-
Gather here before thy face-
Asking Thee to bless this place-
God defend our free land.-
From dissension, envy, hate-
And corruption guard our state-
Make our country good and great-
God defend New Zealand.-
-
Peace not war shall be our boast-
But should foe assail our coast-
Make us then a mighty host-
God defend our free land.-
Lord of battles in they might-
Put our enemies to flight-
Let our cause be just and right-
God defend New Zealand.-
-
Let our hope for Thee increase-
May Thy blessing never cease-
Give us plenty, give us peace-
God defend our free land.-
From dishonour and from shame-
Guard our country's spotless name-
Crown her with immortal fame-
God defend New Zealand.-
-
May our mountains ever be-
Freedom's ramparts on the sea-
Make us faithful unto Thee-
God defend our free land.-
Guide her in the nations van-
Preaching love and truth to man-
Working out thy glorious plan-
God defend New Zealand.-


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: allie kiwi
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:18 PM

Thanks, Pooka, you guessed correct *grin*. As I pointed out to someone else - it's either that or I'm obsessed with green hairy fruit!

One of my favourite anthems would be the Star Spangled Banner, never had any trouble singing it myself, but I guess it depends what key it is in. I didn't realise I knew so many anthems until I came to this thread!

I've always like God Defend New Zealand - all the versus, since they seem to fit out 'peace, not war' nuclear free status etc. Unfortunately we never seem to sing more than the first couple, since we also have to sing it in Maori. If it gets sung too slowly it can sound awfully dirge-like as well.

And for any lurking Aussies - please see no mention of sheep therein! *childishly pokes out tongue*

Allie
going off singing 'And the band played waltzing matilda...'


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:40 PM

Mcgrath:

You hold, as usual, the senior perspective and I agree with your revisions to my alteration of the crustalization of chaos that orignally produced the effing song!! :>) Thanks for the kind remarks.

If I weren't in the deepest, bluest cups tonight, I'd undertake to incorporate yer changes. As it is, why, we're lucky this post is even spelled half-right. (I believe it is, at least, half.) I canbarely reub three chords together undeer the circumstances...

Men will say what women say; And pay what women say they'll pay; And thinking this, all I would say, Is, "Thank the Lord for Beaujolais!"

In any case the bright point of it all is that war is very difficult to prosecure while thinking of children, what they need, and what they mean to the well being of the species.

By all means, please add your version to your wonderful collection and send me a file of it. in your own inimitable style!!

Warmest regards,

A


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

allie kiwi - *BG* - Green hairy fruit, indeed! Lurking Aussies, to be SURE! / I thought of pasting in the Maori, but my posts are too lengthy as it is; & I had left out the gaelic of The Soldier's Song...but being a weary old man all tired sick & sore, I really must get to bed soon; Irish-American bloke needs his beauty sheep y'know :)

[Up jumped the Pooka & jumped into the billabong...]


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 09:59 AM

I do have to correct an error here. During the war of 1812, The British attacked Fort McHenry in Maryland That is what Francis SCott Key was writing about Not Fort Henry in Canada. Was there expansion involved? Certainly, on both sides. the British were not entirely blameless. There was after all the small matter of the impressment of American seamen, inciting the native Americans to border forays against the Americans to mention a few. In actual fact, the government tended to be pro British as the French revolutionaries and later Napoleon were seen as threats to the nation. As to The U.S. being imperialistic the army numbered possibly five thousand men and the navy consisted of relics from the revolution and Jefferson's embargo barges. Not the stuff imperialism is made of. Kindest regards. Neil


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 02:01 PM

Thanks, everyone, for making this a wonderful thread. I've been enjoying every word! Write on!!!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 02:07 PM

I doubt very much if anyone in Ireland anyway has ever sung it with "gap of danger" - that's what "bearna baoghail" means. But even though to the best of my knowledge Peadar Kearney, being a Dublin man, wrote the song in English in the first place, these words have always been in Irish.

"Gap of danger" doesn't rhyme and it doesn't scan, and God knows who is responsible for putting it in the versions on some websites. I imagine someone wrote it in as a translator's note in brackets in the line, and some other eejit took out the Irish words. But I can't believe in anyone actually singing it that way.

And when you think of it, "gap of danger" needs almost as much explanation what kit means as "bearna baoghail" does. (I checked on a search engine to find where the phrase crops up except in bastardised versions of the Soldier's Song, and this was one of the few examples. Which doesn't clarify matters much, but it's an interesting page.)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 11:24 PM

McGrath - agreed.

I've seen the Gap of Dunloe; but never sung the Gap of Danger. Of course this Yank dunno the Irish; but I love it from afar. So to speak. Or not speak.

But Yes that sure is an interesting page, and site. Thanks!! (btw I note therein that one of the Warlords of Ulster was none other than our friend, Amergin the Poet. :)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:24 AM

Neil,

It was the US armed forces that invaded Canada, not the other way round (wasn't it a Senator from Kentucky who claimed that one battalion of Kentucky militia could conquer the whole of lower Canada alone?). As for the impressment of American seamen, yes it happened, but then there was always the definition of who was an American? The British principle was that if you were born British, you were British (and as a sailor liable to be pressed, unless you had a "certificate of protection") the Americans seemed to believe that if you could get to any American territory (or ship) and say you were American, that was good enough (hence the number of RN deserters serving on American ships (civil and military - it was the only trade many of them knew). As for the British being on US soil, yes, it was a counter attack, there was as far as I have read it, no plan of conquest in London (everyone was a little tied up with this Corsican chappie causing trouble at the time), that's not to say that London wouldhave turned it's nose up at extending Canada, but it wasn't part of the plan. Oh, and burning chunks of Washinton was revenge for the Americans burning bits of York/Toronto. As for SSB, personally, I think it works better as a poem than a song,but it's not my anthem, so I don't have a say.

Regards

Tom


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,Roger O'Keeffe
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:52 PM

I have always assumed that the "bearna baoil" referred to the dodgy moment in a siege where fortifications have been breached, and the area gets a bit uncomfortable for anyone who occupies it as fire will be concentrated on them and their survival chances would not be a.

And speaking about Andrew Lloyd Webber, Ireland is already sliding that direction with the consciously PC "Ireland's call" which is sung as a pseudo-anthem at rugby matches as a gesture towards the sensibilities of the Northern Ireland members of the team who mainly come from the Unionist tradition. The sentiment is laudable, but the music is dire, even featuring a very Eurovision key shift.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:55 PM

Transmissio praecox. I was editing to add:

" their survival chances would not be a good insurance risk."


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:06 PM

Very likely Roger's right there. Here is an extract from a website about the Soldier's Song:

"The phrase Bhearna Bhoil, in the Irish language, means the Gap of Danger, and refers to a battle in the rising of 1798, when John Kelly, the Boy from Killan, led a charge against the Bewley Gates in the seige of New Ross. The carnage at that location earned it the title Bhearna Bhaoil, and it became a symbol of the danger that Ireland's sons were willing to face for her freedom. Even when the Soldier's Song is translated into other languages, the term Bhearna Baoil remains in the Irish."

Though, as the extract from the Ulster cycle indicates, it appears to be a phrase that has a much longer history in the Irish than just 1798. I suspect the word "gap" might perhaps have some other more general significance.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 01:59 AM

I personally like the Star Spangled Banner. But if we were to choose an anthem all over again, I'd vote for "A Train." That's about as American as a song can get.

Or how's this?

Sons of the Fatherland, arise!
Bring happiness to our beautious shores!
God blesses our noble fight,
Our cringeing enemy to smite!
No more shall they spit on our glorious soil!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:05 AM

Well, this thread has hit the magic 100-post mark, so it's time to go to Part 2 of this discussion, on this thread: Politically incorrect national anthems 2 (click here)

I've already copied-and-pasted a comment on that thread, made the other day by a GUEST who couldn't find this thread. So please go to the "Politically incorrect national anthems 2" thread to read the comment and to post any further comments on this subject. Thanks!

Sharon


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:28 AM

God save Queen is a anti Scottish song, then the English wonder why it gets booed every time it is played here in Scotland


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:33 AM

Advnce Australia fair was written by a man from Glasgow, Waltzing Matlida was written by an Australian about an Australian man, and yet the Australians voted for a song written by a Scotsman.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:25 AM

The British National anthem is great - it fits in perfectly with all our other sporting chants and songs - many using Folk song/tunes .
Not many sing the "Queen" instead electing to sing "God save our Greatest team - long live our noble etc. etc." and obviously we want our Team ( as the song says ) to be victorious.

Leave them all alone they were developed by generations who thought or believed a country needed some sort of musical identity and in times when women were not part of the fighting force whether you like that fact or not.

So-called Politically correct people make me sick,we are constantly told that their view overrules the majority, which in itself makes a laughing stock of the basic premise of Democracy.
I say, fair play and full representation of all views.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: eddie1
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:52 AM

I've enjoyed reading this thread and, having lived through the era of playing in a band where you had to finish the evening by playing "God Save The Queen", I support the Billy Connolly idea of the theme music from The Archers. The great advantage over all other anthems is that the words are unforgettable, namely:

Dum de dum de dum de dum
Dum de dum de dum dum
Dum de dum de dum de dum
Dum de dum de dum
Dum de dum de dum de dum de dum de dum de dum
Dum de dum de dum de dum de dum de dum de dum.

Have to finish now, I'm dribbling patriotic tears in my keyboard!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,Visitor
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:18 AM

If you REALLY want to have a NPC national anthem (it is banned now);

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze
brüderlich zusammenhält.
von der Maas bis an die Memel,
von der Etsch bis an den Belt,
Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt!

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
sollen in der Welt behalten
ihren alten schönen Klang,
uns zu edler Tat begeistern
unser ganzes Leben lang.
Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
für das deutsche Vaterland!
Danach lasst uns alle streben
brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
sind des Glückes Unterpfand;
Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,
blühe, deutsches Vaterland.

Provisional translation:

Germany, Germany above everything,
above everything in the world,
When it always, for protection and defence,
Brotherly stands together.
From the Meuse to the Neman,
From the Adige to the Belt,
Germany, Germany above all,
Above anything in the world.

German women, German loyalty,
German wine and German song
Shall retain in the world
Their old beautiful ring
And inspire us to noble deeds
During all of our life.
German women, German loyalty,
German wine and German song!

Unity and justice and freedom
For the German fatherland;
For these let us all strive,
Brotherly with heart and hand.
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the pledge of happiness.
flourish in this fortune's blessing,
flourish, German fatherland.

The third stanza is currently Germany's national anthem, the first 2 are banned.

I personally like the GDR's national anthem, many of my German friends have told me that even Wessie's think that is a much better national anthem for Germany.

The GDR's national anthem;
Auferstanden aus Ruinen
und der Zukunft zugewandt,
lasst uns Dir zum Guten dienen,
Deutschland, einig Vaterland.
Alte Not gilt es zu zwingen,
und wir zwingen sie vereint,
denn es muss uns doch gelingen,
dass die Sonne schön wie nie
über Deutschland scheint,
über Deutschland scheint.

Glück und Friede sei beschieden
Deutschland, unserm Vaterland.
Alle Welt sehnt sich nach Frieden,
reicht den Völkern eure Hand.
Wenn wir brüderlich uns einen,
schlagen wir des Volkes Feind.
Lasst das Licht des Friedens scheinen,
dass nie eine Mutter mehr
ihren Sohn beweint,
ihren Sohn beweint.

Lasst uns pflügen, lasst uns bauen,
lernt und schafft wie nie zuvor,
und der eignen Kraft vertrauend
steigt ein frei Geschlecht empor.
Deutsche Jugend, bestes Streben
unsres Volks in dir vereint,
wirst du Deutschlands neues Leben.
Und die Sonne schön wie nie
über Deutschland scheint,
über Deutschland scheint.

Provisional translation
] German lyrics

Auferstanden aus Ruinen
und der Zukunft zugewandt,
lasst uns Dir zum Guten dienen,
Deutschland, einig Vaterland.
Alte Not gilt es zu zwingen,
und wir zwingen sie vereint,
denn es muss uns doch gelingen,
dass die Sonne schön wie nie
über Deutschland scheint,
über Deutschland scheint.

Glück und Friede sei beschieden
Deutschland, unserm Vaterland.
Alle Welt sehnt sich nach Frieden,
reicht den Völkern eure Hand.
Wenn wir brüderlich uns einen,
schlagen wir des Volkes Feind.
Lasst das Licht des Friedens scheinen,
dass nie eine Mutter mehr
ihren Sohn beweint,
ihren Sohn beweint.

Lasst uns pflügen, lasst uns bauen,
lernt und schafft wie nie zuvor,
und der eignen Kraft vertrauend
steigt ein frei Geschlecht empor.
Deutsche Jugend, bestes Streben
unsres Volks in dir vereint,
wirst du Deutschlands neues Leben.
Und die Sonne schön wie nie
über Deutschland scheint,
über Deutschland scheint.
        
[edit] English translation

Risen from the ruins
and faced towards the future,
Let us serve you for the good,
Germany, united fatherland.
Old woes we will have to conquer,
and, united, so we shall,
For it lies within our power
that the sun, beautiful as never before,
Shines over Germany,
shines over Germany.

Happiness and peace may be granted
Germany, our fatherland.
All the world now longs for peace,
so go forth and extend your hand.
When as brothers we unite,
we defeat the people's foe.
Let it shine, the light of Peace!
so that no mother again must
Mourn her son,
mourn her son.

Let us plough, let us build,
learn and work as never before,
And, in confidence and strength,
a free generation will come forth.
German youth, the best endeavor
of our people combined in you,
You will be Germany's new life.
Then may the sun, more beautiful than ever
Shine over Germany,
shine over Germany.

Now THAT is a good national anthem, amongst others because it talks about peace and NOT about war.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: topical tom
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:22 AM

Canada's "alternate anthem" that we sang in elementary school, "The Maple Leaf Forever":

                   The Maple Leaf Forever - Lyrics

From: Sean Vanderfluit
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,nb.general,can.general,ns.general,soc.culture.atlantic.canada
Subject: Re: "The Maple Leaf Forever", words to
Organization: Vancouver Regional FreeNet

When I was in elementary school (late 1970's) we'd have school assemblies every Friday. Part of the routine was always the singing of O Canada, God Save the Queen, and The Maple Leaf Forever. IMHO, The Maple Leaf Forever is a far more stirring and patriotic song than O Canada. Of course, it's probably far too politically incorrect, but what isn't these days. It's part of our history, for better or worse, and it's about time Canadians quit throwing their history in the closet as if it's something to be ashamed of. But check out the last verse. If that isn't a rousing call for national unity, we all might as well leave.

The Lyrics

    In Days of yore,
    From Britain's shore
    Wolfe the dauntless hero came
    And planted firm Britannia's flag
    On Canada's fair domain.
    Here may it wave,
    Our boast, our pride
    And joined in love together,
    The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
    The Maple Leaf Forever.

    [CHORUS]
    The Maple Leaf
    Our Emblem Dear,
    The Maple Leaf Forever.
    God save our Queen and heaven bless,
    The Maple Leaf Forever.

    At Queenston Heights and Lundy's Lane
    Our brave fathers side by side
    For freedom's home and loved ones dear,
    Firmly stood and nobly died.
    And so their rights which they maintained,
    We swear to yeild them never.
    Our watchword ever more shall be
    The Maple Leaf Forever

    [CHORUS]

    Our fair Dominion now extends
    From Cape Race to Nootka Sound
    May peace forever be our lot
    And plenty a store abound
    And may those ties of love be ours
    Which discord cannot sever
    And flourish green for freedom's home
    The Maple Leaf Forever

    [CHORUS]

HTMLified by clamen+www@c


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:07 PM

"Senator wants to change anthem's sexist lyrics"

which proves that the Canadian Senate, like the House of Lords, is a total waste of air and space.

" wish they'd stop fucking with my national anthem...
PC feckwits!"

Which proves the Canadian education system is failing miserably.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

Something tells me "The Maple Leaf Forever" will never fly in Québec.

The only maple here on the prairies is the Manitoba maple, which drips goo because it is always beset with aphids and its abundant seedlings are a nuisance in gardens.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM

The French "O Canada", the "Chant national" is far better than any of the translations its ever had into English. And there's nothing in any way sexist about it either.

Here's the first verse, which counts as the National Anthem, but without anything about "sons". (The later verses are pretty good too):

Ô Canada!
Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST,IRTWM
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:26 PM

Reading through the remarks, it seems like women aren't being given enough credit by the people who want to change every instance of 'sons'. Are they really that insecure?


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:59 PM

They have a chip on their shoulders about it and are over-reacting, in my opinion, in the way that people do overreact when they carry such a grievance.

The primary reason the word "sons" is used in that lyric is that it's a one-syllable word which fits neatly into the line and serves the purpose admirably. The words "daughters", "children", "citizens", "people", "women" are all of 2 or more syllables, and they simply do not work as well. In the context of the anthem, the term "sons" is a generic term that simply means "the children of the nation". "Souls" or "hearts" would also work, and of recent years in fact the word "hearts" (all our hearts' command) has often been substituted.

Another factor, of course, in the use of "sons" would have been that it was normally men who served in the military at the historical time the lyric was written, not women.....but the real key is that "sons" is a one-syllable word that fits the meter and rythm and also conveys the necessary meaning (the children of the nation).

It was not intended as any deliberate exclusion of females, nor should it now be taken as such.

Be that as it may, I have no objection to people singing "all our hearts command" if that makes them feel better. I have no objection to either approach. They both work okay.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:20 PM

My answer to the question inherrent in the title of this thread is "ALL OF THEM!!" I pretty much adhere to the old idea that: If hell has a religion, it is Nationalism and/or Patriotism!!

If national anthems aren't politically incorrect, they sure ought to be that!

Art


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:04 AM

I'm English, and I, alas, haven't got a bloody national anthem!

Rog


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:07 AM

"...in all yous guys command..." or some such variant would work around here and no one would notice.

O Canada does have other verses, as mentioned above, one which contains the line "may stalwart sons and gentle maidens rise".

My favourite verse:

O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,
great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow,
how dear to us thy broad domain,
from east to western sea,
our own beloved native land,
our true north strong and free!
etc...

But wait, perhaps it's not inclusive enough for oaks, spruce, cedar et al.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:00 AM

OAK AND ASH AND THORN!!!!


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:15 PM

Guest...LOL, sure, whatever.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:02 PM

I might suggest "The Soldiers' Song" from Knickerbocker Holiday". I was a member of the cast of a production of that great musical in 1950 or so, and the part of this song I can now remember is like this:

"To war, to war, to war!
We don't want what we're fighting for!
To war, to war, to war!
But that's all right when soldiers go to war.

Oh, if we leave our homes and go to fight,
It's not because we're certain that we're right,
Or even that it fills us with delight
That we'll be slaughtered heroes by tonight,
Or that we've been offered gold!
No, it's only that we're told!

To war, to war, to war!"
and so forth.

More's the pity, a quick Google didn't get me the complete lyrics.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 03:20 PM

Here's the original version of O Canada.


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM

And then, there's the national anthem of France:

Read the lyrics to the French national anthem while you listen to the "Marseillaise." An alternate translation, where available, is included in parenthesis.

Is the Marseillaise truly the world's goriest national anthem?

Interesting information about the modern-day controversy in France regarding the text of their national anthem follows the lyrics.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

National Anthem of France
Words and music by Rouger de lisle (1760-1836)

Arise children of the fatherland
The day of glory has arrived
Against us tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised
Listen to the sound in the fields
The howling of these fearsome soldiers
They are coming into our midst
To cut the throats of your sons and consorts

To arms citizens
Form you battalions
March, march
Let impure blood
Water our furrows

What do they want this horde of slaves
Of traitors and conspiratorial kings?
For whom these vile chains
These long-prepared irons?
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What methods must be taken?
It is we they dare plan
To return to the old slavery!

What! These foreign cohorts!
They would make laws in our courts!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would cut down our warrior sons
Good Lord! By chained hands
Our brow would yield under the yoke
The vile despots would have themselves be
The masters of destiny

Tremble, tyrants and traitors
The shame of all good men
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will receive their just reward
Against you we are all soldiers
If they fall, our young heros
France will bear new ones
Ready to join the fight against you

Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors
Bear or hold back your blows
Spare these sad victims
Who with regret are taking up arms against us
But not these bloody despots
These accomplices of BouillŽ
All these tigers who pitilessly
Are ripping open their mothers' breasts (womb)

We shall enter into the pit
When our elders will no longer be there
There we shall find their ashes
And the mark of their virtues
We are much less jealous of surviving them
Than of sharing their coffins
We shall have the sublime pride
Of avenging or joining them

Sacred Love for the Fatherland
Lead and support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished liberty
Join the struggle with your defenders
Under our flags, let victory
hasten to you virile (or manly) force
So that in death your enemies
See your triumph and our glory!

(Drive on sacred patriotism
Support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished liberty
Join the struggle with your defenders
Under our flags, let victory
Hurry to your evil tone
So that in death your enemies
See your triumph and our glory!)


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Subject: RE: Politically incorrect national anthems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 07:13 PM

Here's an interesting twist for one national anthem, sung backwards, and it sounds quite good that way too. I won't say which one, because it would spoil the surprise. An impressive, if somewhat pointless, feat.


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