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History & Present: Glencoe Massacre

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GLENCOE


Related threads:
(origins) Origin: Glencoe Massacre (Jim McLean) (62)
Tune Req: Glencoe (15)
The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version (102)
(origins) Origins: Snows of Glencoe / Massacre of Glencoe (15)
Lyr Req: The Massacre Of Glencoe (37)
Chords Req: Glencoe (23)
Tune Req: Ballad of Glencoe (10)
(origins) Origins: Ballad of Glencoe / Massacre of Glencoe (39)


greg stephens 12 Mar 02 - 10:28 AM
Maryrrf 12 Mar 02 - 10:39 AM
greg stephens 12 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM
BanjoRay 12 Mar 02 - 11:49 AM
The Walrus at work 12 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,BOAB 13 Mar 02 - 02:05 AM
Cappuccino 13 Mar 02 - 04:55 AM
Scabby Douglas 13 Mar 02 - 08:01 AM
greg stephens 13 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM
kendall 13 Mar 02 - 08:20 AM
kendall 13 Mar 02 - 08:26 AM
The Walrus at work 13 Mar 02 - 08:45 AM
sledge 13 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM
kendall 13 Mar 02 - 01:31 PM
kendall 13 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM
John Routledge 13 Mar 02 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Hamshank 13 Mar 02 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Jim Stewart 13 Mar 02 - 02:51 PM
Leeder 13 Mar 02 - 04:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Mar 02 - 07:07 PM
kendall 13 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM
Troll 14 Mar 02 - 12:20 AM
paddymac 14 Mar 02 - 02:26 AM
GUEST,Boab 14 Mar 02 - 02:48 AM
kendall 14 Mar 02 - 07:00 AM
Scabby Douglas 14 Mar 02 - 07:23 AM
PeteBoom 14 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM
Teribus 14 Mar 02 - 09:50 AM
greg stephens 14 Mar 02 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Jim Stewart 14 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM
kendall 14 Mar 02 - 05:18 PM
The Walrus 14 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM
Jon Bartlett 15 Mar 02 - 01:54 AM
Troll 15 Mar 02 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,Legs 25 Nov 03 - 11:13 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Nov 03 - 11:43 AM
GUEST 25 Nov 03 - 11:46 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Nov 03 - 11:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Nov 03 - 11:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Nov 03 - 12:29 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 03 - 12:50 PM
akenaton 25 Nov 03 - 09:45 PM
LadyJean 26 Nov 03 - 12:53 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Nov 03 - 01:47 PM
Melani 26 Nov 03 - 02:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Nov 03 - 03:05 PM
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Subject: Glencoe Massacre
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:28 AM

For those contributors who enjoy re-fighting old battles ( and I've noticed a few)...anybody got any thoughts on the fact that the new manager of the Glencoe Visitors' Centre is called Roddy Campbell?

Search for "glencoe" threads

Glencoe in the Digital Tradition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:39 AM

Well, it brought a chuckle to my day! I'll bet he takes a lot of kidding about that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM

I sort of imagine that all vistors are asked to sign in the Guest Book, and anybody who writes McDonald is discreetly asked if they would like to go into the Special Room.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: BanjoRay
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:49 AM

I wonder if they'll let him in the Clachaig?

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

Apparently, the visitor centre was not popular, locally, in the first place. Giving the job of managing it to a Campbell is seen as adding insult to injury.
Mr Campbell was on the radio trying to justify his ancestors' actions (I missed it - I had a bus to catch) but it seemed to take the form "They were only obeying orders" (sound familiar?)

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:05 AM

The massacre was an unsavoury episode in Scotland's story---but no where near the bloodiest. The Campbells were NOT the main culprits involved--they were even a minority among the government troops who took part. The lion's share of blame belongs with the British government, and on the head of King William of Orange. Or, if you want to get right to the root---the Young Pretender, who brainwashed some [by no means all] of the calns into believing they were in a fight for Scotland's freedom, when in fact Charles Edward Stewart's ONLY interest was in the British throne, and "the Divine Right of Kings". Now there was a cause worth fighting AGAINST! In the words of an old miner poet of my acquaintance "Scotland's Heritage frae Stewart kings--the Graves amang the Heather".


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Cappuccino
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:55 AM

Was it Alastair McDonald who wrote the great song about it, 'cruel is the snow which sweeps Glencoe', and which includes the line 'the Campbell had orders King William had signed'?

(And, before I hit 'submit message' on this, I realised I had written Alastair Campbell. Oh dear, that would really have screwed things up!)

- Ian B


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:01 AM

Boab.. a lot of what you say has some validity - however - the Young Pretender could not be blamed for any of the Glencoe incidents - as he would not be born for another 28 years. Nor even could his father "The Old Pretender", as he was only 4 years old at the time.

However, there's plenty of blame to go around...

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM

We could certainly blame the Old Pretender's dad, James II(of England that is), probably the most serious nuisance of those serious serial nuisances the Stuart kings.They took a lot of getting rid of, we decapitated Charles I, kicked James II out, and still the basteards kept coming, Old Pretenders, Young Pretenders, the Great Pretender. isn't there still one of them lurking in Belgium somewhere trying to gather the clans. Sod off the lot of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:20 AM

As I understand it, it was the King's representitive, My Dalrymple, who overstepped his authority and ordered the massacre. Also, how come no one ever mentions the time the McDonalds attacked the McCleods in church?


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:26 AM

If you are not familiar with the song, THE PIPER'S REFRAIN, have a look. It is one of the best songs written in recent years. It's in the DT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:45 AM

Kendall,

Presumably the McDonalds hadn't been enjoying the Mcleods' hospitality up to the point of the attack. I think that was the point that rankled at the time, not that one side tried to massacre the other, but that the offenders were guests.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: sledge
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM

It all took place 300 years ago, time to get over it I think.

How often do we sit and take in the world news and shake our heads over stories detailing massacres in the Balkans, the roots of which go back hundreds of years asking how does this happen. To keep going on about this Campbell/McDonald issue in this way keeps the animosity alive and well and the potential for violence is then just around the corner.

Get over it, after all I don't hold any ill feelings against the descendants of William the first or the poeople of Normandy for conquering England. :)

Sledge


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:31 PM

History is history. Get over that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM

That sounded kinda snotty. Sorry. I majored in history in college because I have a deep seated interest in what happened, and why it happened. I have no intention of perpetuating the animosity of that incident,(I married a Campbell)it's just that I am intrigued by the thought processes of other people. If everyone thought like me, there would be no Glen Coe massacre, hallocaust, slavery, Taliban etc. BORING!


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: John Routledge
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:48 PM

Glencoe itself is forbidding even without the massacre.

I have to say though that Glencoe's history adds a very magical quality to the area. Experience it if you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:58 PM

I come from MacDonald stock, and my mother-in-law's maiden name was MacDonald. I have nothing against present-day Campbells because of what their ancestors did 300 years ago at Glencoe, so long as they don't try to excuse it. Byegones.

HS


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Jim Stewart
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:51 PM

The song was written by Scotsman Jim McLean. And leave the Stewarts alone or I'll start picking on the Kennedys. Or the Clintons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Leeder
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:05 PM

Last evening the CBC radio program "As It Happens" did a phone interview with a Mr. McDonald who was deploring, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, the fact that a Campbell was running the centre. He said he went into the restaurant and asked, "Do you serve Campbells?" When they said "Yes", he said, "Give me two on toast." An amusing interview.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:07 PM

Meself I'd prefer James II to his successors. That is not saying a great deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM

Is this Guest Stewart THE Jim Stewart?


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Troll
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:20 AM

John Campbell of Glenlyon commanded the troops that committed the Glencoe Massacre. The son of Alistair MacIain (The chief of the Glencoe MacDonalds) John of Achtriatan had married the widdow of one of Glenlyons relatives and he used this "kinship" to persuade the MacDonalds to quarter his troops.
He had a grudge against Alistair since a raid by the MacDonalds had so ruined him that he had to seek a commission in the English army. But the orders were signed by William II at the connivance of Mr. Dalrymple, the Master of Stair and -some say-Campbell of Breadalbane.
During the uprising in 1715, Achtiratan and Glenlyons grandson met, made peace, and the two clans fought side by side.
My family name is Johnson. It was changed during the American Revolution from "McKeen" according to my great-grandmother. McKeen is a variant spelling for MacIain.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:26 AM

Jim Stewart - Why doncha pick an easy target? Just be sure to sweep up when your done with the lot of 'em. :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:48 AM

OOPS!!Scabby Doug---you're dead right!---I got my sixteens and seventeens in a twist, didn't I?!? I still stick by the over-emphasis on the part the Campbells played, though----


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:00 AM

I know a Scot whiose mother is fond of saying about the Campbells, "Aye, they come from a dirty nest"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:23 AM

Hmmmm

Just so I've nailed my colours (as it were) to the mast..

My middle name (from my maternal grandmother's family) is Campbell..

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: PeteBoom
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM

ScabbyDoug - we won't blame you personally for that. We'll blame your parents! ;-)

(And we won't turn our backs after granting you hospitality...)

Pete


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:50 AM

Scabby Doug,

Be proud of it!! The major source of animosity directed at the Campbells stemmed from nothing other than jealousy - History bears out the fact that they were a damn sight more astute at picking which side was going to win in any conflict situation.

Others did it in a different way by splitting what different members of the family did - father/eldest son supporting one side while the younger supported the other. That way no matter what side prevailed the family lands remained intact, the losers heading off to exile for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:02 AM

Yes, and their loyal followers got six feet of peat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Jim Stewart
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM

Kendall wonders if I'm THE Jim Stewart. Of course, old buddy! You mean there's more than one of me?? There's a frightening thought!! I look forward to the pleasure of your company once again, good sir. May it be soon. All of us that know you are damn proud that we do. -Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: kendall
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 05:18 PM

May I tell what I know about you Jim? I mean, other than being one hell of a song writer? How you got the nick name?? huh? huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: The Walrus
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM

Troll,

"....But the orders were signed by William II at the connivance of Mr. Dalrymple, ..."

I trust that you are referring to the Scottish succession there, otherwise the orders might have been a little out of date by the 1690s (William II of England died in the 12th Century).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 01:54 AM

FYI: A medal commemorating (?) this event is just now being auctioned on eBay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Glencoe Massacre
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 02:18 AM

Walrus. Right you are. William the Conqueror, William Rufus, and William of Orange. It was William the Threeth and not the Tooth.
I stand abashed and covered with rue.

troll


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Legs
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:13 AM

Dear Trol


I need to know how many people were killed in the glencoe massacre, 2 facts about it, when and where it happened.

Please!

Legs


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:43 AM

13 February, 1692. "Over thirty" killed.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:46 AM

Feb.13, 1692. 38 men, women & children.
    More here:

http://www.electricscotland.com/books/paterson/glencoe.htm


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:48 AM

It, of course, happened at Glencoe, a glen in northern Argylshire, seat of the Macdonald of Glencoe.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:55 AM

The exact number killed is open to conjecture. Most of the Macdonalds escaped. No one was ever prosecuted, but the master of Stair and Breadalbane, who is believed to be the instigator, lost his position as secretary of state after an inquiry held three years after the massacre.
The Macdonald and his followers were six days late to swear allegiance to the crown (King William), and his sept was punished in this manner by Campbell of Glenlyon.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 12:29 PM

If anything this kind of thing seems routine practice in modern wars.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 12:50 PM

Too true McGrath!
Even at the time this happened it was only too common.
The infamy of the event itself, was overshadowed by the violation of the hospitality.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 09:45 PM

My old grandfather used to talk of the three "scourges" of Scotland...
    "The midges, the bracken, and the Campbells"....Ake


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:53 AM

If I remember John Prebble's book on the massacre correctly, the S.O.B. in charge was heard to say, "I'd dirk any man in the kingdom if the king but gave the word." People like that should not be encouraged.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:47 PM

Gee, LadyJean- just a loyal royalist doing his duty!


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: Melani
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 02:30 PM

I'm a Russell--did they do anything terrible? (or good, for that matter?)

Jim Stewart--by all accounts, the Stewarts tended to be handsome, charming folks--just not real good at being monarchs. Feel free to light into the Kennedys and the Clintons--nobody's perfect.


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Subject: RE: History & Present: Glencoe Massacre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:05 PM

The massacre- the beginnings of Campbell's tomato soup.


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