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After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew

toadfrog 09 Mar 02 - 09:38 PM
Amos 09 Mar 02 - 07:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Mar 02 - 07:25 PM
DougR 09 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM
Amos 09 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM
Lonesome EJ 09 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM
Ebbie 09 Mar 02 - 03:31 PM
michaelr 09 Mar 02 - 01:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM
DougR 08 Mar 02 - 05:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM
WyoWoman 08 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM
mack/misophist 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 07 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 01:32 PM
InOBU 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Mar 02 - 01:07 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM
M.Ted 07 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM
Mrrzy 07 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM
heric 06 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM
GUEST 06 Mar 02 - 11:14 PM
Amos 06 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM
michaelr 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 06 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Feder 06 Mar 02 - 05:14 PM
Bobert 06 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 04:23 PM
marty D 06 Mar 02 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Feder 06 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM
M.Ted 06 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM
Bobert 06 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 02:43 PM
Lonesome EJ 06 Mar 02 - 01:01 PM
M.Ted 06 Mar 02 - 12:39 PM
marty D 06 Mar 02 - 12:14 PM
Mrrzy 06 Mar 02 - 09:22 AM
InOBU 06 Mar 02 - 09:13 AM
WyoWoman 06 Mar 02 - 08:06 AM
InOBU 06 Mar 02 - 07:42 AM
InOBU 06 Mar 02 - 07:30 AM
Lanfranc 06 Mar 02 - 03:59 AM
Big Mick 06 Mar 02 - 02:33 AM
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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: toadfrog
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 09:38 PM

Feder, old GUEST, there is a convention on this site that when you post stuff not related to music, it is appropriate to designate it with the initials BS. So far as I am concerned, it is NOT appropriate to copy inflammatory stuff from extreme rightwing publications and paste it into threads. Or to past political stuff into threads at all. That is called "trolling." It is an abuse of hospitality.

And kindly explain just why is it relevant that the author of this stuff gave you permission to jam it down our throats?


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:31 PM

Interesting point, Sir Grath. In the absence of a partisan victory, I would imagine we get back to Ebbie's point - the only victory would be some kind of two-sided re-invention of terms which would provide a plus-sum resolution (win for both sides).

But for that to occur, a certain amount of new, fresh attention, unburdened by old deposits, would have to come into play, and there's such a bloody shortage in the world, donchaknow?

A


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:25 PM

And that doesn't work in some conflicts. Sometimes you have conflicts where the weaker side is never going to give in, no matter how many times it's been beaten. Ireland was one such cases. I suspect Palestine is another.

I'm not saying "Isn't that heroic." The kind of thing that comes out of that kind of conflict is likely to be very ugly. But ending that kind of conflict can't be achieved by thinking in terms of victory.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM

Yep, LEJ, and Amos, I think you both nailed it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM

Or, as Klausewitz said, the purpose of war is to bring about a more amenable frame of mind on the part of the enemy.

A


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

Because the peace that ensues after war invariably favors the point of view of the victor, the victor gaining concessions from the loser that would not have been granted without coercion.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:31 PM

The fact that at the end of a war imposed conditions are laid on the table and agreed upon- whether they end hostilities for a period of years, or whether they lay the groundwork for more war in the foreseeable future - by its very nature implies a period of peace. Why, then, is it necessary for war to be fought? In other words, since we know that communication will eventually become essential, why haven't we evolved enough to head unerringly in that direction?

I think that when two or more countries cannot agree upon crucial points and decide to make war against each other, only the governments should meet on the battlefield.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 01:18 AM

Wyo - the pax romana you describe was known in recent history as the Cold War. I'm not sure the current state of affairs is better, but I still would not want to revisit THAT one.

Regards,
Michael


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM

No it doesn't look good for the Holy Land, and it looks as if it only too likely to get even worse. But if (and I hope its when) peace comes, I am sure it will have to be through an agreement by people on both sides that they have had enough, not through any military victory short of genocide.

As for Northern Ireland, true enough there's no total peace, and there's always the possibility that things could slip back into war once more. But there's always that risk after every conflict, and it's balanced by a hope and a determination that it will not.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:57 PM

Well, McGrath, I suppose we will see who is correct and maybe soon, eh? It certainly appears to me that Israel and Palestine are headed for all out war. I hope not, but it doesn't look good.

As to Northern Ireland, it doesn't appear to me that total peace has come to that Island yet, but only appears to be a lull in the unrest.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM

I stopped out of even reading this thread for the last few days, because from experience, so often they turn into dispiriting and destructive quarrels. Reading through it today I was really pleased to see that it hasn't happened, and it's stayed as a honest attempt by people to explain their different points of view.

Wars drive people crazy, and "irregular wars" drive them crazier still. People do things and feel things and say things that just don't make sense, and that they never would in ordinary life. The consequences is horrible atrocities, like the obscene killing of Daniel Pearl, with its accompaniment by a style of anti-semitism borrowed from European history, which has nothing to do with the culture of Pakistan.

"Turning the other cheek" doesn't mean giving in to violence.It means refusing to be drawn into the embrace of violence. I am sometimes surprised at how freely people sneer at the expression - more especially people who generally might say they have a lot of regard for the man from whom the expression comes.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

"Opposing sides sit down at the table after one of them has defeated the other in a war."

Noone defeated the other side in Northern Ireland. Both sides realised that if they didn't find a way of stopping the fighting it would go on for ever.

Not a perfect peace, not a safe peace - but a peace of sorts. And if there is going to be an end to the bloodshed in the Holy Land, that is how it's going to come, not through the stronger side crushing the weaker side until the violence stops, because that is never going to work.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM

I hesitate to confront a historian such as dicho, but during the berlin blockade I thought a few other military and civil aircraft helped with the ferrying of essential suppplies - not just Americans.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM

Welp, I'm not saying pax romana is always a bad thing. Depends on the romana. Whatever keeps people from each other's throats -- particularly when one or both parties have nuclear or biological weapons. But ... keeping that kind of "peace" perpetually through arms without working on the underlying affronts to justice will never be anything but an expensive and ultimately resource-exhausting proposition. Justice is the key, but when it's been denied and bungled and tangled from so many directions for so incredibly long ... it's pretty hard to see how much untangling can occur.

A pax on all y'all!

xo/ww


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

"They make a desolation and call it peace". "War is diplomacy, continued by other means". "Ultima ratio regis".
All different. All the same. All true. all false.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

bobert, although I think I'm right, I hope you are.

Thanks dicho, for the history lesson. I suppose our earlier altercations with English Canada during the 1812 War could also be considered a quarrel over boundaries.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM

Yeah, Lonesome and Doug, there was an altercation between the US and Canada over the boundary in the west. There was a joint occupation agreement in effect. Pres. Polk was elected on the Oregon question and his "Fifty-four forty or fight" slogan. There was much argument on paper from both sides, with the usual posturing, but finally Britain acceeded to the current boundary with the Treaty of Oregon in 1846. Their reasons were several- In a war, Britain stood to lose Canada to a powerful neighbor. The British Navy could not participate in defence because of the location. The territory between the 49th parallel and the Columbia was small. Many American settlers (as well many from the British Isles) had come to the area, and were opposed to any conflict.
There was some sort of conflict on one of the islands- members of a ships crew coming ashore for water or supplies? - and I think some pigs paid the supreme price. Can't remember now; this is trivia that isn't in the better history books.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM

"I have a dream...." Martin Luther King. Yeah, DougR, if we don't aim for high ideals, we'll get nothing. No goals, no progress. I don't want my kid and his kids to have to clean up the mess we left because of the "Well, that's the way it is" mentality of the folks on this watch...

"You may call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." John Lennon.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM

An over-generalized appraisal of the world, as you see it, Bobert, is you see it as you wish it were. I wish it were that way. Unfortunately, it is not. Maybe someday.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

Danged, Lonesome EJ, guess you got the ol' bobert on that one. Guess ol' DougR is right after all. All issues have to be solved thru war or threats of war. Heck, I'm going down to the recruitin' office and sign up. Gonna go an' kill me some... ahhh... Arabs, no make that so Phillipinos...and some Irans and some Koreans commies... And then... ahhh, maybe if I have any bullets left, some Somalians... Some Iraqis... some, ahhhh, heck, might as well just kill a few Cubans... and, ahhh, heck, after that big ol' stinck with the Lympics... maybe a few French folk and some of them commie Ruskies.... BOBERT! BOBERT! You got a Ruskie on the payroll. THAT ONE DON'T COUNT. HE'S ONE OF THE GOOD EN' RUSKIES. Sorry folks, ol' bobert just funnin' and got a little carried away. But now that I'm back, I'm stcickin to the ideal that peaceful resolution is not only possible but on this shrinking planet.... necessary. Peace. Bobert.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:32 PM

Yes, I'm pretty sure there was a limited war, LEJ. But why would we want Canada anyway? :>) **GBG** (Don't want to start another war).

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

Well, in fact, we seem to have evoled into an animal which committs war. Now, it is time to evolve again or become extinct. It is a choice up to each of us as individuals, join our Neander cousins, or reach for the future. CHeers Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:07 PM

bobert...ever hear of "54/40 or fight"? That was the US battle cry after Lewis and Clark declared the latitude and longitude of the US north western border with Canada upon their survey of the Louisiana Purchase. Britain refused to accept this, because they coveted the harbors in and around Vancouver and present-day Seattle. I'm fairly sure a limited war was fought in the area before resolving the issue.

Primitive hunter-gatherer societies seem,in some cases,to have been able to live together peaceably side by side when an over-abundance of resources were available, so that tribal competition was minimized. Historically, as these tribes developed into kingdoms, the accompanying demand for resources to meet growing population needs increased pressure to dominate or absorb neighboring tribes or kingdoms. As kingdoms reached the status of nation-states, the need for the expansion of territory and power has historically increased. Periods of expansion and war have been limited not by communication and compromise (Chamberlain and Hitler), but by military defeat and domination by a power which imposes peace from above and according to its own terms.

Now, it may be that the population of the world today stands apart from all other people in the history of this world in regard to war and peace, but I certainly see no signs of it. My deduction is that we have a simple choice : be aware of the history of human interaction as demonstrated over thousands of years and make the very best of it, or believe in the general peaceful nature and good will of humans toward one another and proceed in a well-intentioned but completely ineffectual way.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

Okay, DougR, tell us about the American/Canadian War. There seems to be 3000 miles of agreed upon border which was negoitiated civilly. You are mistaken when you imply that all conflicts are solved by armed conflict. There will be no "answer" in the "Isreali/Palestinian question", which it isn't. It is a war and there will be two losers. Sure Isreal will kill a lot more Plaestinians because they are better armed, thanks to the US, but will they be any more secure? No. They are just breading a new crop of folks who feel put upon, hopeless, helpless and powerless. And we, the US, are doing less toward trying promote peace in the Middle East than we did unde that last 4 administrations, going back to Jimmy Carter. And we're not doing anything to promote peace in the Kasmire/Pakistani/India conflict, either. This administration is Hell Bent on a World War, is drawing up plans as I write this, and will call anyone a traitor who questions them. Sound familiar?


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

Read the thread, GUEST, Feder says he was given permission to post the article--

> With her permission, I posted an article written by Catherine Ford for the Calgary >Herald, a mainstream newspaper in a large Canadian city.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM

I agree that he was available and American first, and that him being Jewish was just the icing on the cake. And I thought they slit his throat.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: heric
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

"I am a Jew, my mother was a Jew."

Good Sweet Jesus. I didn't know this until I saw your post Feder. I haven't had much time for the news. They made him speak those words immediately before they stepped up to the video camera and beheaded him.

There is just too much to think about.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:14 PM

This material is COPYRIGHTED - remove it IMMEDIATELY (24 hours of this posting) or confront prosecution.

Thank you pussycat


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM

After Daniel Pearl's murder, I am a sentient human being. Casting this violent offense into a group-versus-group antagonism, as Ms Ford sees fit to do, is a sad error; the crime is one of humans betraying their own kind for the sake of a stuck and frozen picture of unreal dimensions. Thus, it is a travesty of human life, pumped up into a violent dramatization. You want an enemy, there's one for you.

A.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

I am quite aware of the importance of discussion. This particular one appeared to be at an impasse, which is why I chose to call it an "argument". The distinction is crucial.

Peace,
Michael


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM

Yes, I do, Feder. He is the guy we are trying to find.

Bobert: You are comparing apples to oranges. A civil suit hardly compares to a war between nations. I think there are no examples, of the question I posed, because there are none.

Likely, the Palestinian/Israeli question will not be resolved until one of the two is victorous in a full-scale war. Then, and only then will the two parties sit at a table and seriously negotiate, and one will have a heavier hammer than the other, because one will be the defeatee and the other will be the defeator.

That does not mean I favor a war between them, so don't get thee thy dander up. It's just what I believe will probably have to happen. There have been many efforts to bring the parties to the table, and in fact, they have been, but they are still fighting, and show no signs of stopping.

This is one time I hope I am wrong.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM

I remember a certain former president who made the "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech during the isolation of Berlin. It was the use of the US Air Force to move supplies that convinced the Soviets to change their policy, not the rather silly speech.
What bothered me about the column by Ford, and the response to it, was that the arguments turned to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict rather than to the Pakistan-Kashmir-India conflict, with possible connections to Afganistan, which was responsible for the killing of Pearl. It seems to be forgotten that there are several conflicts which do not wholly overlap except at the level of Muslim opposition to the policies of the West.
I see little chance for peace in the forseeable future in either the Pakistan-India or Israeli-Palestinian conflicts (or in the fight for local Muslim autonomy in the Philippines). The sides with the most power will try to keep the opponent under their boot, with the resentment of the latter continuing to feed terrorist activity.
In destroying the forces for terrorism in Afganistan, we have taken the risk (I think considered) of destabilizing Pakistan.
Someone mentioned the Pax Romana. At least the Romans absorbed many groups into their camp and provided stability over a large area. Whether we can do the same remains to be seen, but it certainly won't be soon.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:14 PM

DougR sez: I am not convinced, Fedor, that the main reason the terrorists killed Daniel Pearl was because he was a Jew. I think he was just readily available. It could have been any journalist.

In front of a video camera, Pearl's captors forced him to say "I am a Jew, my mother was a Jew" before they murdered him.

They did not force him to say "I am a journalist," they forced him to say "I am a Jew, my mother was a Jew."

Pearl's murderers are Islamic terrorists. Hatred of Jews is a fundamental tenet of these terrorists. Don't take my word for it, listen to any speech by Osama bin Laden (remember him).


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM

Like I said, DougR, the examples don't make it into the news. Only the failures which end up in armed conflict. The world is full of peacemakers who settle differences through arbitration and mediation. There are local and world courts where differences are settled thru negoitiation. Lots of stuff gets settled without armed conflict. I don't remember going to war with Canada over the boundry line between it and the US but had there been armed conflict then it would have made it into the history books. History books, for the most part, record failed relationships between people and countries. The wars are the highlights with the mondane everyday stuff getting little notice. I'll tell ya' what, next chance you have, my friend, go to your local civil court and you will get a glimpse into how much stuff gets settled without violence.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:23 PM

MTed: you make my point. Opposing sides sit down at the table after one of them has defeated the other in a war.

Bobert: Happens all the time? Examples, please.

MartyD, I don't recall our discussing this subject at all. Perpaps we did and my soon to be 72 year old brain has now allowed me to remember it. Accusations of liberals "getting" their ideas from the likes of Phil Donohue, does not differ in my opinon, from the charges by liberals the conservatives get all their ideas from Rush Limbaugh. I'd call that a draw.

I am not convinced, Fedor, that the main reason the terrorists killed Daniel Pearl was because he was a Jew. I think he was just readily available. It could have been any journalist. I do think that the fact that he was a journalist had a lot do with their killing him though. That ensured a great amount of publicity for them the terrorists.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: marty D
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:48 PM

My apologies Feder, and I mean that. I guess I may have been looking for a flame when there was none. The last time I looked in at Mudcat there seemed to be a fair amount of stuff that was started simply to get temperatures rising, plus someone was talking about obvious fake names being used to score points. I overreacted.

Doug, I didn't say you'd 'attacked' liberals, but you have said things about them getting their politics from Phil Donahue, etc. and I simply don't think that issues like this need be 'right, left' ones. For the record I often agree with you, but I DO like Micks's approach of sticking to the issue.

marty


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM

MartyD sez: Once again a fascinating Mudcat discussion has come from an initial post intended to be disruptive. Why do I think it was started by someone well practiced in the nasty art of using other people's names to take shots at Mudcat..especially the DT, and selected individuals?

With her permission, I posted an article written by Catherine Ford for the Calgary Herald, a mainstream newspaper in a large Canadian city.

I posted the article because I thought it represented an interesting point of view. If you think I had any other motive, you have a problem with paranoia. Just for the record, I agree with parts of her article and disagree with other parts.

I took no shots at Mudcat, at the DT, or at any individual, selected or otherwise.

I did not use anyone else's name. It so happens that Feder is MY family name.

Daniel Pearl was singled out for kidnapping and murder BECAUSE he was a Jew. I believe that Catherine Ford's point was that such a hate crime is an attack on everyone.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM

Actually, DougR, everything is settled by sitting down at a table and working things out--sometimes it takes years of war to get people to the table--

It is well to remember that, no matter what anyone says, the objectives of war are almost always economic and political--


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM

It happens all the time, DougR, my friend. But they don't pu the non-wars in the history books. When things are resolved, it doesn't make the front page and the evening news unless the solution means an end to armed conflict. Good news doesn't sell as well as bad. Tahts why the evening news is one bad thing after another.

Lanfranc: I think you have more respect for Ghandi than you are willing to admit. You say his efforts were in vain but then say you "see no Ghandi's on the international scene today". Maybe Ghandi's efforts weren't all in vain. It's hard to measure the influence of a couragous man becuase we don't know how things would have turned out without their acts of courage.

WyoWoman: You're right when you say "We must be the Ghandi we wish to see in the world."

inOBU: Yes, yes, yes. "...discussion is very much part of the answer."

MartyD: You're right in that the stakes have "never been higher."

Big Mick: Thanks for your patience. When mankind finally comes around to the realization that the current foriegn policies are not solving porblems but creating more, and have decided to take the first step of WILLINGNESS to communicate, I want you at the table.

Speaking of this WILLINGNESS to communicate, there is a Saudi proposal for peace in the Middle East that calls for the inclusion of Yessar Arafat. This would represent a small step toward the "willingness" aspect of the communication equation, which is a small step toward peace. Yes, peace is difficult, but not impossible. It is a matter of small steps. I am hoping that the Saudi proposal becomes a reality.

Peace,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:43 PM

I have several thoughts after reading those who posted after my last post.

I think there has been perhaps too much emphasis on the fact that Daniel Pearl was a Jew. He was a human being, and he was treated inhumanely. I think that is all we need to know.

I don't believe a review of my posts on the Mudcat over the past two plus years will find that I have EVER suggested that anyone does not have a right to his or her views, or that he or she does not have a right to express them, regardless of what their experiences might have been or whatever their beliefs. I believe that I have been attacked more because of my beliefs, than I have ever attacked another individual on the Mudcat. I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall actually attacking anyone.

What Larry says is true. I consider both Mick and Larry friends, and I certainly consider WW a good friend, even though we have never met. The fact that we do not share the same views on every subject has nothing to do with it.

One can be a conservative without spouting views expressed by other conservatives. For example, I agree with Mick that leaning on the fact that the terrorists are jealous of our freedom, and that accounts for their actions against the free world is ridiculous.

The fact that liberals also have divergent views can be witnessed in this thead. Mick would describe himself as a liberal, I think, but his ideas regarding how the U. S. should have responded to the terrorists differs completely from the views of Bobert and Larry I believe.

I do not like war. I think, at times however, war is inevitable. If someone can tell me when a major confrontation between two countries, involving territory, or religion, has been settled by the two parties sitting down at a table, Please tell me about it.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:01 PM

It is too bad that the people of the US are forced to involve themselves in this war of genecidal reciprocity between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East, a war in which the actions of both sides seem to be dictated by extremist fringes.

Until we in this country find a way to cease our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, we will continue to support Israel as a "stabilizing influence" in the area. I deplore the killing of Daniel Pearl. I think, however, that to use the fact of his Jewishness as a reason for declaring devotion to the cause of Israel in its unlimited conflicts in the area is a grave mistake. Better we should see his murder as symptomatic of the unreasoning rage and hate that holds sway in the middle east, than that we should use it as an excuse to take part in it.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:39 PM

These discussions are hardly abstract--while it matters not a bit what is folk or not, the what, how, and why of what the US does and doesn't do in the middle east does matter--discussions are important, MichaelR--and discussions where everyone's insights, perspectives, and fears are voiced, because choices have to be made, and the truth is that those choices seldom conform to the parameters of any political, social, or economic philosophy, so even the most ideological are compelled to think before they make decisions--


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: marty D
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:14 PM

Once again a fascinating Mudcat discussion has come from an initial post intended to be disruptive. Why do I think it was started by someone well practiced in the nasty art of using other people's names to take shots at Mudcat..especially the DT, and selected individuals? Just a hunch I guess. But it hardly matters, because the thoughtful people have turned it into a damned good discussion.

As far as "talking to" or "talking at", that's a tough one to figure out. The lines really are blurred, especially when the topic is as emotional as this. One thing I do know though is that you Mick invariably take the time to explain your position in detail (sometimes too much detail, GR) without insulting your opponent's intelligence, while Doug I'm afraid you drop far too many little one line posts about the motives of people who try to see both sides of an issue. I don't doubt for a minute your sincerity or passion, but your ideology always seems to come first. Right or wrong, I think that's why new information and more desperate times...I hope we can all agree that the stakes have never been higher than at present...call for LESS ideology and more NEW approaches.

marty


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 09:22 AM

Well, if she's a Christian, then she's not a Jew anyway, and the whole thing becomes even more ridiculous. When the Europeans were saying, after Sept 11, that We are all Americans, I thought that was ridiculous too - they arent' Americans, but everyone united against the terrorists are the CIVILIZED, and the US does NOT have a monopoly on civilization. If she renounces Jesus, she can say she's a Jew.

But my other question still stands: I can remember, lo these many moons ago, when it WAS considered insulting to call someone Jewish a Jew. There was an editorial about this a few months ago somewhere, WashPost perhaps. Nowadays, a Jew can be a Jew and it is descriptive rather than derogatory. Is that the case now in consensus?


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 09:13 AM

OH WW, I am glad you posted again, there was so much to say, I wanted to thank you for bringing that gentle wonderfull fellow, Dan Pearl back into the discussion. I think we need to build a world where it is safe to be a Danial Pearl, and I don't think a bomb is a very good building tool. Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 08:06 AM

We must be the Gandhi we wish to see in the world.

Which doesn't mean surrender, just means different means of "fighting." And maybe different goals worth fighting for.

And if discussing things never does any good, we might as well all tape our mouths shut and find the enclave that suits our particular prejudices best and start heaving rocks at each other. If honest discourse is always seen as shouting at each other and is believed to be useless, we're all deeply screwed.

ww


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:42 AM

Everythink??? Geeeezeloueeze, I need to get more sleep! Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:30 AM

Well... discussion is very much a part of the answer, as long as it is undertaken with both parties wanting to listen and act on the results. Here in Mudcat, we have seen some spectacular results of discussion. I am always reminded of my first introduction to Richard Bridge, an Mcat solisitor in England. We could not be farther from agreement in belief or on fact, yet disscussing Ireland we both came to some real understandings and a bunch of steriotypes fell by the wayside. Now Michael, I would offer that you look a little harder at the posts, I consider Mick and Dough, good and as close friends as I have, in spite of having never met. Like many close friends there are things we agree on and things we don't. But, we are, in light of one of the most viseral issues of our day, we aren't attacking each other.
On the issue of talk in light of war and peace, many in this nation, including some in our leadership, have not spent a lot of time "walking in another's shoes." The present occupant of the White House, had never left the US before his election, though some Scottish Mcats swore on an eariler post, they's seen him drinking years ago in a pub in Scotland). Point is, that fundimentalism, here and there feeds on the paings of poverty and the disatisfaction of inequality, and unlike civil rights movements, it creates more inequality and poverty as it's solution. Remember all the poorest folks living in trailers here sending everythink they could to Jim BakKer so his DOG could have an airconditioned dog house!
Well, I don't say turn the other cheek, that is not enough. I say feed to poor and help educate the ignorant and the philisophical poverty of fundimentalism will dry up and blow away like the dust in downtown New York.
Keep talking friends, Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lanfranc
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:59 AM

"So they argue through the night
Black is black and white is white
Then walk away, each knowing they were right"
Phil Ochs "Flower Lady"

Nothing changes, and it never will, at least not while there is profit to be made from the creation and distribution of guns, bombs and other weapons. Nor yet while religious or nationalistic jingoism serves the purpose of those who wish to preserve their own power, wealth or influence at any cost to others.

Even Ghandi's efforts were in vain, as recent events in India testify. I see no Ghandi on the international scene today, no statesmen or stateswomen of any stature at all. Just self-serving politicians and "religious" leaders on all sides who foment lies or hatred without consideration for, or, worse, indifferent of, the consequences.

I do not pretend to know the answer, if there is one, but I fear that we are on the brink of a combination of conflicts that could engulf us all - and despair.

Carpe diem

Alan


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:33 AM

Michael, I suggest that you go back and read them again. It sounds to me that you are the one who is "reading past" them. I, and others, are communicating ideas. Quite frankly, folks who think that political discussion,as well as religious discussion, is a waste of time deserve what they get. It is in the ignoring of other folks politics and religion that things like the Middle East, the north of Ireland, South Africa, Vietnam, etc. occur. Now if what you are referring to as talking past each other is jingoistic statements, and the "why can't the world see the rightness of what we do" to the exclusion of other arguments, then I am with you. But it appears to me that you really haven't read the whole of the statements posted.

Respectfully,

Mick


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