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After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew

GUEST,Feder 05 Mar 02 - 01:21 PM
GUEST 05 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 05 Mar 02 - 02:08 PM
katlaughing 05 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 05 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 05 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM
Bobert 05 Mar 02 - 02:56 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 05 Mar 02 - 03:12 PM
Mrrzy 05 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 05 Mar 02 - 04:21 PM
DougR 05 Mar 02 - 04:43 PM
Mark Cohen 05 Mar 02 - 04:48 PM
SharonA 05 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM
InOBU 05 Mar 02 - 05:32 PM
Bill D 05 Mar 02 - 05:39 PM
Bobert 05 Mar 02 - 05:51 PM
SharonA 05 Mar 02 - 06:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 02 - 07:14 PM
DougR 05 Mar 02 - 10:39 PM
InOBU 05 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM
WyoWoman 05 Mar 02 - 11:12 PM
Big Mick 06 Mar 02 - 12:15 AM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 12:48 AM
Big Mick 06 Mar 02 - 01:45 AM
michaelr 06 Mar 02 - 02:09 AM
Big Mick 06 Mar 02 - 02:33 AM
Lanfranc 06 Mar 02 - 03:59 AM
InOBU 06 Mar 02 - 07:30 AM
InOBU 06 Mar 02 - 07:42 AM
WyoWoman 06 Mar 02 - 08:06 AM
InOBU 06 Mar 02 - 09:13 AM
Mrrzy 06 Mar 02 - 09:22 AM
marty D 06 Mar 02 - 12:14 PM
M.Ted 06 Mar 02 - 12:39 PM
Lonesome EJ 06 Mar 02 - 01:01 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 02:43 PM
Bobert 06 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM
M.Ted 06 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Feder 06 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM
marty D 06 Mar 02 - 03:48 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 04:23 PM
Bobert 06 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Feder 06 Mar 02 - 05:14 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 06 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM
michaelr 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM
Amos 06 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM
GUEST 06 Mar 02 - 11:14 PM
heric 06 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM
Mrrzy 07 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM
M.Ted 07 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Mar 02 - 01:07 PM
InOBU 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 01:32 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 07 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM
mack/misophist 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM
WyoWoman 08 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM
DougR 08 Mar 02 - 05:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM
michaelr 09 Mar 02 - 01:18 AM
Ebbie 09 Mar 02 - 03:31 PM
Lonesome EJ 09 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM
Amos 09 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM
DougR 09 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Mar 02 - 07:25 PM
Amos 09 Mar 02 - 07:31 PM
toadfrog 09 Mar 02 - 09:38 PM
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Subject: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 01:21 PM

This article is being passed around the Internet with the permission of the author. Please feel free to forward it to friends, family and, especially, to your elected representatives. It was written by Catherine Ford for the Calgary Herald.

***

by Catherine Ford

He was slaughtered far away from Jerusalem or Ramallah. But Daniel Pearl's death and mutilation in Pakistan, because he was an American, but most importantly because he was a Jew, has done what no other act of barbarism accomplished.

The Wall Street Journal writer's death turned my heart to stone. Even this week's peace overtures from Saudi Arabia are no longer enough. Not after yet another Jew has been humiliated, slaughtered, and his remains debased.

There is an apocryphal Second World War story during the German occupation of Denmark: When the Nazis ordered all Jews to wear a yellow star, so did King Christian X. And he encouraged all of his subjects to do the same. That Queen Margrethe II says it didn't happen doesn't in any way debase the symbolism. The myth continues because bravery and defiance in the face of hatred is always inspiring.

Today, those who hate Jews are able to do so because too many gentiles will not stand up and be counted as the Danish myth proposes. Too many non-Jews tacitly accept racism and discrimination.

No more. Today, I proudly echo Pearl's last words: I am a Jew. I join my husband, his family, our friends, and my colleagues who are Jews.

I am a Jew because I can no longer accept the excuses made for anti-Semitism. I no longer accept the lies that hatred on the part of Arab countries and hatred shown the Jews in the West is something individual and isolated. It is not. Our silence for long years has encouraged Holocaust deniers, revisionists, baiters and haters to spread their poison.

I used to think there was a middle ground, that especially when the question of Israel arose, that both "sides" were equally at fault. No more.

I can't agree with the actions of Ariel Sharon's government, in its eye-for-an-eye, death-for-death retaliation against the Palestinians, but my disgust for anti-Semites and Israel-deniers who populate Israel's Arab neighbours is worse.

For as far back as I can remember, the "solution" to the crises in the Middle East has been to reach an accommodation with the Palestinians and Arab countries. Yet, the proposal by Saudi Arabia that Israel to return Gaza and the West Bank in exchange for peace is not enough, even in the unlikely event the Sharon government would agree.

The West has a role and a responsibility in this conflict to affirm, publicly, our support for Israel and to demand others do the same. Only then will negotiations have any chance of success. I don't mean mealy mouthed political niceties, I mean insisting Israel's neighbours such as Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, and all the Arab countries accept Israel or accept the consequences.

There are few countries in the Middle East that share our civilized values and democratic principles as closely as Israel does. It is time to stand up and be counted in more than words.

We have the power and the moral responsibility to do so, and it doesn't need to be with bombs, even if we want to expand the so-called "axes of evil." We have a far greater hammer. We have the economic clout to impose sanctions. All we need is the will.

The time for playing nice with killers is over. The time for "understanding" the plight of the Palestinians is past. It's now time to affirm on the world stage the inherent right of Israel to exist in peace. Israel's neighbours must accept their responsibility in fomenting hatred and open their borders to the displaced Palestinians. For nearly 50 years these countries have done nothing to alleviate the suffering of their kith and kin.

They have allowed terrorists, anarchists, dictators and religious fanatics to flourish within their borders.

It's not necessary to bomb Iraq or any of them into submission. Sanctions are more devastating. No truck; no trade. No immigration. No visas. No money or goods.

Bombing promotes self-pity and lets the evil-doers blame the United States for their sorry plight. Bombs are easy. They require no sacrifice on the part of the West other than money to pay for material

How much more devastating to shun them. If we are committed to Israel, we have to show we mean it, and if that means less oil for SUVs because we refuse to trade honour for comfort, too bad.

It is time for all of us to stand up and say: I am a Jew.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM

Danny Pearl had a lot of guts to go into the situation he did, because he, and everyone else there knew that the Afghanis liked to video tape throat slashings, and send them back to the folks at home--It is a dishonor to his name, and the name of every journalist(Jewish and non-Jewish) who has been killed in pursuit of a story to use his death as a justification for "getting tough" with the Arabs--as if it hasn't been done before--

As to you Feder, you are a racist trouble maker, at hate monger, and you use every excuse to wave a bloody flag--You disgrace the people of Israel, and worse, you, and all the empty minded jingoists whose diatribes you post here are agressively making things worse for everyone in Israel--These words, and the actions that they "justify"--the murders of people suspected of supporting terrorists, the military attacks on civilian targets, public buildings, the destruction of homes--all of these things create new zealots, new martyrs, and new suicide bombers--and, in the same way that you are so thirsty for revenge--so are they thirsty for revenge--and, as your revenge is taken on the innocent, so is theirs--

When you read about the Israeli victims of today's "revenge", remember that you are guilty in their deaths too!!


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:08 PM

As a Calgarian, I deplore the article by Catherine Ford. It exposes her ignorance and contributes nothing to discussions of the severe problems in Israel-Palestine (or in the Pakistan-Kashmir-India area either).


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM

It was in the Montreal Gazette and is copyrighted by them as of today.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

Ford may be reached at fordc@theherald.southam.ca. Both the Herald and the Montreal Gazette are far right wing papers published and controlled by a man named Asper who controls Southam Publishing. The lead editorial today is about the evils of "reverse discrimination." Ford lives in Calgary.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

The Calgary Herald and the Montreal Gazette are both owned by Israel Asper's Canwest Global chain.

Asper's support for zionism is unconditional.

He owns many other newspapers in Canada and probably ordered them all to print it. It is also well known that he will not allow criticism of the zionist occupation in his newspapers.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM

Could I suggest that there is already enough fighting about this, and too many horrible things being done by people on all sides carrying out horrible reprisals against horrible reprisals?

It is possible to carry on discussions about things like this without falling into attacks on other people, or throwing out insults, or posting in a way that is inevitably going to generate counterattacks.

Discussions carried out in a way that tries to understand why people have disagreements about these issues, and identifying what those disagreements are, and where there are things on which there is agreement - they can be useful, because they don't happen too often in the face-to-face world.

But people shouting at each other over the net - that is just part of the problem. It is not any way to try to imagine some kind of solution.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:56 PM

Danged, ol' bobert may have to drag back his "Department of Peace" thread. The only way to achieve peace is to promote and live it. It won't come from the barrel of a gun. Never has and never will. PERIOD. The United States, unfortuantely, is pursuing a foriegn policy that future generations, if there will be such a thing, will look back on as a time when we did not have the courage to promote peace when presented a golden opporuity. We are now moving into a world war plans being formulated in the war rooms for actions in half a dozen countries. Why? Because it is PROFITABLE for the folks who paid for Bush's "selection". This is a disgracefull time to be an American. I'm sure some troll will post after me me telling me that if I don't like it, then leave. Well, if you're out there thinking of that response, keep in mind that it is better to remain silent and thought to be moron than to speak and remove all doubts. Peace. Bobert


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 03:12 PM

McGrath, major English-language newspapers in Canada are controlled largely by Asper, so we are exposed to his form of censorship. Recently it was announced that editorial content would be controlled centrally in his papers. There is no competition in Calgary except from a tabloid (also right wing) called the Sun. It is the sort of paper sold by sensation, sex and sports (you are familiar with these in England) and is no real alternate choice. Our only decent news is over the internet from the NY Times and the Washington Post, and the BBC newscasts and discussion programs carried on local cable.
Please separate the adverse comments by Guest and myself about Asper's newspapers from comments on the strife in the Middle East, the Philipines and elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM

O for crying out loud all over again. You can't be PROUD of an accident of birth! You can be GLAD, yes, but pride should be reserved for actual achievements. The author was a Jew long before Pearl was killed. Yes it was horrible, but it didn't make her one little bit more Jewish than she already was. I do not accept excuses based on bigotry against any group, but that feeling doesn't make me a member of any of those groups to which I don't already belong.

Or is the point that while it used to be racist to use the term Jew, it oughtn't to be any more?


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 04:21 PM

Mrzzy, Catherine Ford is Christian, her mother an English "war bride."


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 04:43 PM

Bobert: were I in an argumentive mood (which I am not at the moment)I would argue with you. Your statement the "only way to achieve peace is to promote and live it. It won't come from the barrel of a gun. Never has, never will, PERIOD," is ridiculous, in my opinion. How do you think peace was achieved in 1946? It took a war to defeat Nazi Germany, and Japan, before there could be peace. If there had been no war, you would be speaking German or Japanese now instead of English probably.

Get real, Bobert. But then I'm in no mood to argue.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 04:48 PM

Thanks for pointing that out, Dicho, because that was the whole point of the article. In my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with censorship or Canadian publishing politics, but with humanity. I don't like what Sharon is doing, and I don't like what Arafat and the other Arab leaders are doing, and I don't like what Bush and his cronies are doing. I do like the people in Israel who are teaching in schools where Jewish and Arab kids study and work and play together successfully. But they don't make the headlines, because peace doesn't sell papers.

It's easy to hate. It's hard to see a human face in the "enemy", because we're all biologically "programmed" to make it easy for us to see some people as "enemies" and therefore as somehow not human. Makes it easier to kill them. Now American kids are getting dressed up to go out and kill Filipinos and Yemenis and Iraqis and Afghans and Chechens and anybody else our government says is a "terrorist"--even the ones who were "freedom fighters" just a year or two ago.

I don't know what the answer is. I just know it's not more killing. Call me a simpleminded fuzzyheaded pacifistic left-wing liberal asshole, if it makes you feel better. But more killing is still not the answer.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM

I got the point, and I understood that Ford is not Jewish by heritage, from the line "I am a Jew because I can no longer accept the excuses made for anti-Semitism.". But as I read the article I couldn't help thinking of the "I am a jelly doughnut" Presidential speech. I understand that Ms. Ford is trying to tell people who oppose oppression to stand up and be counted, but to encourage people to embrace the name "Jew" even if they don't embrace the faith sounds silly to me (and is no doubt highly insulting to some Jews).

Besides, I'd read that Pearl's last words were "I am a Jewish-American." I guess Ms. Ford didn't want to go quite so far in her quest as to call herself an American!


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:32 PM

Evil is a void which can only be filled with love. Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:39 PM

"False are the bickering reigns,
Of honor, of homeland, of war..."

from "The Seasons of Peace"...
Bob Beers


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:51 PM

Yo, DougR. Beating someone's brains out should not be confused with the concept of peace. It just means that as the victor, you get the spoils. Had the United States and its allies spent more time promoting peace after WWI then I'm suggesting that there wouldn't have been WWII, Korea, Hungary, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosova, Kuwait, the June Wars, the Middle East, Afganistan, etc. As the world's super power, we have had and continue to have a responsibility to lead this planet toward peaceful coexistence, even when it may be in conflict with the spoils and profits of war. So, I'm stickin with my premise, DougR, that one crappy war just leads to another. You can't take one out of context but have to look at the pattern of failed policies that, bottom line, have failed mankind. Peace. Bobert


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 06:13 PM

Bobert: Thanks for including "and its allies" in your last post. However, I must take issue with your characterization of the US as "the world's super power"; we're not the only one!

I can't help but think it strange that a nation that's a tad over 225 years old is assumed to "have a responsibility to lead this planet" full of nations hundreds of years, and some even thousands of years, in the making. We must have done something right.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:14 PM

Who else could count as a superpower? Lots of countries with more people. but there just aren't any with more than a fraction of the USA's muscle. All kinds of reasons why that is true - but the fact that it is true is surely beyond dispute.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:39 PM

Right, Bobert and OBU, ...and little lambs eat ivy.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

Well... let's look at the alternative, do you want your town... (actually MY town living in New York,) to face a future like that of Hebron? I don't. Given the choice between war and peace, I choose peace. Everyone is saying Why US? Well, perhapes after 50 years of dropping bombs around the world and taking 70% of the worlds resourse, we have made the world we are now living in. If they are "jealous of our democracy" as we are told in the news... then why are planes not falling on Denmark and Sweeden. Sorry mate, I am still cleaning the ashes of my nighbors off my sheets at night. Choose war if you want, go fight if you want, but don't expect sane folks to agree that you are making our world safer.
Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:12 PM

At least I can say "I am a journalist. I am a member of the Media. And I'm proud of that fact," thanks to Mr. Pearl's example. I still don't understand the kind of thinking that believes killing people will lead, ultimately, to peace -- other than the pax romana that disappears as soon as the big guns are withdrawn. It's all the steps that lead to violence we need to be considering most seriously. Justice promotes peace, and I don't know much else that really does.

But I do believe that shining a light on people and processes so citizens can make informed decisions is a noble calling, and in pursuing that aim, Mr. Pearl became one of its greatest heros.

ww


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:15 AM

I guess I am qualified to comment on both sides of the equation, given my background. I must tell you DougR, with all due respect, that your comments are as simplistic as the side which you lambast. The fact of the matter is that every major war, including WWII, has been settled more on the basis of economics than on the basis of muscle. It is altogether to easy to say the bomb did it, but look at what that same bomb put us through for the 50 years following the war. And for all our muscle, we still went through 'Nam, Korea, Panama, Desert Storm and now Afghanistan. All of our vaunted muscle did not stop war, it just made our "enemies" more desperate. It has done nothing to make the world or the USA safer. Don't believe it? Ask the families of 3,000 dead in NYC. Is the Mideast safer for our bullheaded support of, and arming of, Israel. How many more Israeli and Palestinian kids have got to die before we get the fact that people have aspirations and that theirs are just as legitimate as ours? Do you think that peace will come to the North of Ireland because one side is stronger than the other? Hasn't been the case for 400 years and won't be the case now. It will come because it will make sense to do come. It will come when the folks realize that one cannot survive and prosper unless the other does. And anything we do to foster peace in these countries is money better spent than arming them, or worse, just leaving them to "slug it out".

I am the furthest thing from an unthinking peacenik, but I am no closer to being a slogan slinging conservative. The approach has got to be one that is intolerant of jingoistic crap, and that rewards people of courage and vision that seek peace at all costs. These are the true heroes. I want to sing their songs.

Mick


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:48 AM

Thank you Mick, I take no offense at you thinking I am simplistic in my thinking. You have a right to your opinion. Odd, I suppose, but that is exactly what I feel about the thinking of those of you who believe that turning the cheek to folks like those who hit the WTC will make them our friends. We (the free world not just the U.S.) are facing an enemy now unlike any we have seen before. March to your drummer, I'll march to mine. But in the end, if the terrorists are successful, it really won't matter too much what we think. We won't be around to think. When they start bombing our shopping centers, sniping away at our crowds, loading cars with bombs to explode in populated areas, and I think they will, you can extend your hands in peace to them. I'm sure that will work.

So be it. We disagree.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:45 AM

Yes, we do, Doug. And where up there did you read that I thought we should turn our cheek. While I have great respect for your views, your whole last post exactly makes my point. Instead of dealing with facts, you chose to put forward a false predicate. You chose to suggest that I and others think we should have just let them bomb the WTC and wring our hands. That is not accurate. As I have said in earlier threads, those that chose to kill 3,000 innocents must pay for that deed. I have said that I support the effort to root out terrorists completely. But what I have also said, and it was within hours of the bombing, is that if we don't also figure why this is happening, we will be dealing with the same thing long after you and I are in our boxes. And I am tired of conservatives shouting this stupid bullshit about "they are jealous of us, they can't stand our freedom". Keep that crap up and you won't face the probability of bombs in our shopping centers, you will face it for a certainty. The same advice that I teach my kids, I would beg the President to follow. And that is when faced with adversity and folks attacking you, the first reaction ought to be self reflection to determine what part of the cause is on us. Only by honest self appraisal, and a willingness to understand that the folks doing this believe in the rightnous of their position as fervently as you do, can you chart a path which leads to resolution and a more perfect world. I am not speaking here of the maniacs that committed this madness. I am speaking here of the very large majority of the Islamic world that doesn't even believe that Moslems did this. Do you seriously believe that these are all wild eyed demons willing to kill themselves just to bloody our nose? These are men and women raising kids, with hopes and aspirations just as valid as yours. It is a matter of survival, ours and theirs, that we find a way to bridge the gap of understanding between us.

Strike the perpetrators, and strike them hard. Just understand as the body bags come home, and you start seeing the children who are casualties, that this shallow, damn idea of "nuke 'em" will lead only to more misery, for the people in those countries and ours as well.

DougR and others, I mean no personal slight to any of you. But this one taps into very familiar feelings for me that go back to the early '70's. I have earned my right to have them, and they are borne of a horror that is unspeakable. I want us to complete our mission, not be caught in the pisshole of an unwinnable war. In the end, understanding and dialogue will win the day long before bullets and bombs, justified though they might be, will.

Mick


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:09 AM

Have any of you noticed that you're talking PAST, not TO each other?

Political arguments, like religious ones, are a waste of time. And so are arguments about whether something/someone is folk or not.

Michael


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:33 AM

Michael, I suggest that you go back and read them again. It sounds to me that you are the one who is "reading past" them. I, and others, are communicating ideas. Quite frankly, folks who think that political discussion,as well as religious discussion, is a waste of time deserve what they get. It is in the ignoring of other folks politics and religion that things like the Middle East, the north of Ireland, South Africa, Vietnam, etc. occur. Now if what you are referring to as talking past each other is jingoistic statements, and the "why can't the world see the rightness of what we do" to the exclusion of other arguments, then I am with you. But it appears to me that you really haven't read the whole of the statements posted.

Respectfully,

Mick


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lanfranc
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:59 AM

"So they argue through the night
Black is black and white is white
Then walk away, each knowing they were right"
Phil Ochs "Flower Lady"

Nothing changes, and it never will, at least not while there is profit to be made from the creation and distribution of guns, bombs and other weapons. Nor yet while religious or nationalistic jingoism serves the purpose of those who wish to preserve their own power, wealth or influence at any cost to others.

Even Ghandi's efforts were in vain, as recent events in India testify. I see no Ghandi on the international scene today, no statesmen or stateswomen of any stature at all. Just self-serving politicians and "religious" leaders on all sides who foment lies or hatred without consideration for, or, worse, indifferent of, the consequences.

I do not pretend to know the answer, if there is one, but I fear that we are on the brink of a combination of conflicts that could engulf us all - and despair.

Carpe diem

Alan


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:30 AM

Well... discussion is very much a part of the answer, as long as it is undertaken with both parties wanting to listen and act on the results. Here in Mudcat, we have seen some spectacular results of discussion. I am always reminded of my first introduction to Richard Bridge, an Mcat solisitor in England. We could not be farther from agreement in belief or on fact, yet disscussing Ireland we both came to some real understandings and a bunch of steriotypes fell by the wayside. Now Michael, I would offer that you look a little harder at the posts, I consider Mick and Dough, good and as close friends as I have, in spite of having never met. Like many close friends there are things we agree on and things we don't. But, we are, in light of one of the most viseral issues of our day, we aren't attacking each other.
On the issue of talk in light of war and peace, many in this nation, including some in our leadership, have not spent a lot of time "walking in another's shoes." The present occupant of the White House, had never left the US before his election, though some Scottish Mcats swore on an eariler post, they's seen him drinking years ago in a pub in Scotland). Point is, that fundimentalism, here and there feeds on the paings of poverty and the disatisfaction of inequality, and unlike civil rights movements, it creates more inequality and poverty as it's solution. Remember all the poorest folks living in trailers here sending everythink they could to Jim BakKer so his DOG could have an airconditioned dog house!
Well, I don't say turn the other cheek, that is not enough. I say feed to poor and help educate the ignorant and the philisophical poverty of fundimentalism will dry up and blow away like the dust in downtown New York.
Keep talking friends, Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:42 AM

Everythink??? Geeeezeloueeze, I need to get more sleep! Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 08:06 AM

We must be the Gandhi we wish to see in the world.

Which doesn't mean surrender, just means different means of "fighting." And maybe different goals worth fighting for.

And if discussing things never does any good, we might as well all tape our mouths shut and find the enclave that suits our particular prejudices best and start heaving rocks at each other. If honest discourse is always seen as shouting at each other and is believed to be useless, we're all deeply screwed.

ww


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 09:13 AM

OH WW, I am glad you posted again, there was so much to say, I wanted to thank you for bringing that gentle wonderfull fellow, Dan Pearl back into the discussion. I think we need to build a world where it is safe to be a Danial Pearl, and I don't think a bomb is a very good building tool. Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 09:22 AM

Well, if she's a Christian, then she's not a Jew anyway, and the whole thing becomes even more ridiculous. When the Europeans were saying, after Sept 11, that We are all Americans, I thought that was ridiculous too - they arent' Americans, but everyone united against the terrorists are the CIVILIZED, and the US does NOT have a monopoly on civilization. If she renounces Jesus, she can say she's a Jew.

But my other question still stands: I can remember, lo these many moons ago, when it WAS considered insulting to call someone Jewish a Jew. There was an editorial about this a few months ago somewhere, WashPost perhaps. Nowadays, a Jew can be a Jew and it is descriptive rather than derogatory. Is that the case now in consensus?


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: marty D
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:14 PM

Once again a fascinating Mudcat discussion has come from an initial post intended to be disruptive. Why do I think it was started by someone well practiced in the nasty art of using other people's names to take shots at Mudcat..especially the DT, and selected individuals? Just a hunch I guess. But it hardly matters, because the thoughtful people have turned it into a damned good discussion.

As far as "talking to" or "talking at", that's a tough one to figure out. The lines really are blurred, especially when the topic is as emotional as this. One thing I do know though is that you Mick invariably take the time to explain your position in detail (sometimes too much detail, GR) without insulting your opponent's intelligence, while Doug I'm afraid you drop far too many little one line posts about the motives of people who try to see both sides of an issue. I don't doubt for a minute your sincerity or passion, but your ideology always seems to come first. Right or wrong, I think that's why new information and more desperate times...I hope we can all agree that the stakes have never been higher than at present...call for LESS ideology and more NEW approaches.

marty


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:39 PM

These discussions are hardly abstract--while it matters not a bit what is folk or not, the what, how, and why of what the US does and doesn't do in the middle east does matter--discussions are important, MichaelR--and discussions where everyone's insights, perspectives, and fears are voiced, because choices have to be made, and the truth is that those choices seldom conform to the parameters of any political, social, or economic philosophy, so even the most ideological are compelled to think before they make decisions--


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:01 PM

It is too bad that the people of the US are forced to involve themselves in this war of genecidal reciprocity between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East, a war in which the actions of both sides seem to be dictated by extremist fringes.

Until we in this country find a way to cease our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, we will continue to support Israel as a "stabilizing influence" in the area. I deplore the killing of Daniel Pearl. I think, however, that to use the fact of his Jewishness as a reason for declaring devotion to the cause of Israel in its unlimited conflicts in the area is a grave mistake. Better we should see his murder as symptomatic of the unreasoning rage and hate that holds sway in the middle east, than that we should use it as an excuse to take part in it.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:43 PM

I have several thoughts after reading those who posted after my last post.

I think there has been perhaps too much emphasis on the fact that Daniel Pearl was a Jew. He was a human being, and he was treated inhumanely. I think that is all we need to know.

I don't believe a review of my posts on the Mudcat over the past two plus years will find that I have EVER suggested that anyone does not have a right to his or her views, or that he or she does not have a right to express them, regardless of what their experiences might have been or whatever their beliefs. I believe that I have been attacked more because of my beliefs, than I have ever attacked another individual on the Mudcat. I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall actually attacking anyone.

What Larry says is true. I consider both Mick and Larry friends, and I certainly consider WW a good friend, even though we have never met. The fact that we do not share the same views on every subject has nothing to do with it.

One can be a conservative without spouting views expressed by other conservatives. For example, I agree with Mick that leaning on the fact that the terrorists are jealous of our freedom, and that accounts for their actions against the free world is ridiculous.

The fact that liberals also have divergent views can be witnessed in this thead. Mick would describe himself as a liberal, I think, but his ideas regarding how the U. S. should have responded to the terrorists differs completely from the views of Bobert and Larry I believe.

I do not like war. I think, at times however, war is inevitable. If someone can tell me when a major confrontation between two countries, involving territory, or religion, has been settled by the two parties sitting down at a table, Please tell me about it.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM

It happens all the time, DougR, my friend. But they don't pu the non-wars in the history books. When things are resolved, it doesn't make the front page and the evening news unless the solution means an end to armed conflict. Good news doesn't sell as well as bad. Tahts why the evening news is one bad thing after another.

Lanfranc: I think you have more respect for Ghandi than you are willing to admit. You say his efforts were in vain but then say you "see no Ghandi's on the international scene today". Maybe Ghandi's efforts weren't all in vain. It's hard to measure the influence of a couragous man becuase we don't know how things would have turned out without their acts of courage.

WyoWoman: You're right when you say "We must be the Ghandi we wish to see in the world."

inOBU: Yes, yes, yes. "...discussion is very much part of the answer."

MartyD: You're right in that the stakes have "never been higher."

Big Mick: Thanks for your patience. When mankind finally comes around to the realization that the current foriegn policies are not solving porblems but creating more, and have decided to take the first step of WILLINGNESS to communicate, I want you at the table.

Speaking of this WILLINGNESS to communicate, there is a Saudi proposal for peace in the Middle East that calls for the inclusion of Yessar Arafat. This would represent a small step toward the "willingness" aspect of the communication equation, which is a small step toward peace. Yes, peace is difficult, but not impossible. It is a matter of small steps. I am hoping that the Saudi proposal becomes a reality.

Peace,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM

Actually, DougR, everything is settled by sitting down at a table and working things out--sometimes it takes years of war to get people to the table--

It is well to remember that, no matter what anyone says, the objectives of war are almost always economic and political--


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM

MartyD sez: Once again a fascinating Mudcat discussion has come from an initial post intended to be disruptive. Why do I think it was started by someone well practiced in the nasty art of using other people's names to take shots at Mudcat..especially the DT, and selected individuals?

With her permission, I posted an article written by Catherine Ford for the Calgary Herald, a mainstream newspaper in a large Canadian city.

I posted the article because I thought it represented an interesting point of view. If you think I had any other motive, you have a problem with paranoia. Just for the record, I agree with parts of her article and disagree with other parts.

I took no shots at Mudcat, at the DT, or at any individual, selected or otherwise.

I did not use anyone else's name. It so happens that Feder is MY family name.

Daniel Pearl was singled out for kidnapping and murder BECAUSE he was a Jew. I believe that Catherine Ford's point was that such a hate crime is an attack on everyone.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: marty D
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:48 PM

My apologies Feder, and I mean that. I guess I may have been looking for a flame when there was none. The last time I looked in at Mudcat there seemed to be a fair amount of stuff that was started simply to get temperatures rising, plus someone was talking about obvious fake names being used to score points. I overreacted.

Doug, I didn't say you'd 'attacked' liberals, but you have said things about them getting their politics from Phil Donahue, etc. and I simply don't think that issues like this need be 'right, left' ones. For the record I often agree with you, but I DO like Micks's approach of sticking to the issue.

marty


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:23 PM

MTed: you make my point. Opposing sides sit down at the table after one of them has defeated the other in a war.

Bobert: Happens all the time? Examples, please.

MartyD, I don't recall our discussing this subject at all. Perpaps we did and my soon to be 72 year old brain has now allowed me to remember it. Accusations of liberals "getting" their ideas from the likes of Phil Donohue, does not differ in my opinon, from the charges by liberals the conservatives get all their ideas from Rush Limbaugh. I'd call that a draw.

I am not convinced, Fedor, that the main reason the terrorists killed Daniel Pearl was because he was a Jew. I think he was just readily available. It could have been any journalist. I do think that the fact that he was a journalist had a lot do with their killing him though. That ensured a great amount of publicity for them the terrorists.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM

Like I said, DougR, the examples don't make it into the news. Only the failures which end up in armed conflict. The world is full of peacemakers who settle differences through arbitration and mediation. There are local and world courts where differences are settled thru negoitiation. Lots of stuff gets settled without armed conflict. I don't remember going to war with Canada over the boundry line between it and the US but had there been armed conflict then it would have made it into the history books. History books, for the most part, record failed relationships between people and countries. The wars are the highlights with the mondane everyday stuff getting little notice. I'll tell ya' what, next chance you have, my friend, go to your local civil court and you will get a glimpse into how much stuff gets settled without violence.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:14 PM

DougR sez: I am not convinced, Fedor, that the main reason the terrorists killed Daniel Pearl was because he was a Jew. I think he was just readily available. It could have been any journalist.

In front of a video camera, Pearl's captors forced him to say "I am a Jew, my mother was a Jew" before they murdered him.

They did not force him to say "I am a journalist," they forced him to say "I am a Jew, my mother was a Jew."

Pearl's murderers are Islamic terrorists. Hatred of Jews is a fundamental tenet of these terrorists. Don't take my word for it, listen to any speech by Osama bin Laden (remember him).


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM

I remember a certain former president who made the "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech during the isolation of Berlin. It was the use of the US Air Force to move supplies that convinced the Soviets to change their policy, not the rather silly speech.
What bothered me about the column by Ford, and the response to it, was that the arguments turned to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict rather than to the Pakistan-Kashmir-India conflict, with possible connections to Afganistan, which was responsible for the killing of Pearl. It seems to be forgotten that there are several conflicts which do not wholly overlap except at the level of Muslim opposition to the policies of the West.
I see little chance for peace in the forseeable future in either the Pakistan-India or Israeli-Palestinian conflicts (or in the fight for local Muslim autonomy in the Philippines). The sides with the most power will try to keep the opponent under their boot, with the resentment of the latter continuing to feed terrorist activity.
In destroying the forces for terrorism in Afganistan, we have taken the risk (I think considered) of destabilizing Pakistan.
Someone mentioned the Pax Romana. At least the Romans absorbed many groups into their camp and provided stability over a large area. Whether we can do the same remains to be seen, but it certainly won't be soon.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM

Yes, I do, Feder. He is the guy we are trying to find.

Bobert: You are comparing apples to oranges. A civil suit hardly compares to a war between nations. I think there are no examples, of the question I posed, because there are none.

Likely, the Palestinian/Israeli question will not be resolved until one of the two is victorous in a full-scale war. Then, and only then will the two parties sit at a table and seriously negotiate, and one will have a heavier hammer than the other, because one will be the defeatee and the other will be the defeator.

That does not mean I favor a war between them, so don't get thee thy dander up. It's just what I believe will probably have to happen. There have been many efforts to bring the parties to the table, and in fact, they have been, but they are still fighting, and show no signs of stopping.

This is one time I hope I am wrong.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

I am quite aware of the importance of discussion. This particular one appeared to be at an impasse, which is why I chose to call it an "argument". The distinction is crucial.

Peace,
Michael


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM

After Daniel Pearl's murder, I am a sentient human being. Casting this violent offense into a group-versus-group antagonism, as Ms Ford sees fit to do, is a sad error; the crime is one of humans betraying their own kind for the sake of a stuck and frozen picture of unreal dimensions. Thus, it is a travesty of human life, pumped up into a violent dramatization. You want an enemy, there's one for you.

A.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:14 PM

This material is COPYRIGHTED - remove it IMMEDIATELY (24 hours of this posting) or confront prosecution.

Thank you pussycat


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: heric
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

"I am a Jew, my mother was a Jew."

Good Sweet Jesus. I didn't know this until I saw your post Feder. I haven't had much time for the news. They made him speak those words immediately before they stepped up to the video camera and beheaded him.

There is just too much to think about.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM

I agree that he was available and American first, and that him being Jewish was just the icing on the cake. And I thought they slit his throat.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

Read the thread, GUEST, Feder says he was given permission to post the article--

> With her permission, I posted an article written by Catherine Ford for the Calgary >Herald, a mainstream newspaper in a large Canadian city.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

Okay, DougR, tell us about the American/Canadian War. There seems to be 3000 miles of agreed upon border which was negoitiated civilly. You are mistaken when you imply that all conflicts are solved by armed conflict. There will be no "answer" in the "Isreali/Palestinian question", which it isn't. It is a war and there will be two losers. Sure Isreal will kill a lot more Plaestinians because they are better armed, thanks to the US, but will they be any more secure? No. They are just breading a new crop of folks who feel put upon, hopeless, helpless and powerless. And we, the US, are doing less toward trying promote peace in the Middle East than we did unde that last 4 administrations, going back to Jimmy Carter. And we're not doing anything to promote peace in the Kasmire/Pakistani/India conflict, either. This administration is Hell Bent on a World War, is drawing up plans as I write this, and will call anyone a traitor who questions them. Sound familiar?


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:07 PM

bobert...ever hear of "54/40 or fight"? That was the US battle cry after Lewis and Clark declared the latitude and longitude of the US north western border with Canada upon their survey of the Louisiana Purchase. Britain refused to accept this, because they coveted the harbors in and around Vancouver and present-day Seattle. I'm fairly sure a limited war was fought in the area before resolving the issue.

Primitive hunter-gatherer societies seem,in some cases,to have been able to live together peaceably side by side when an over-abundance of resources were available, so that tribal competition was minimized. Historically, as these tribes developed into kingdoms, the accompanying demand for resources to meet growing population needs increased pressure to dominate or absorb neighboring tribes or kingdoms. As kingdoms reached the status of nation-states, the need for the expansion of territory and power has historically increased. Periods of expansion and war have been limited not by communication and compromise (Chamberlain and Hitler), but by military defeat and domination by a power which imposes peace from above and according to its own terms.

Now, it may be that the population of the world today stands apart from all other people in the history of this world in regard to war and peace, but I certainly see no signs of it. My deduction is that we have a simple choice : be aware of the history of human interaction as demonstrated over thousands of years and make the very best of it, or believe in the general peaceful nature and good will of humans toward one another and proceed in a well-intentioned but completely ineffectual way.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

Well, in fact, we seem to have evoled into an animal which committs war. Now, it is time to evolve again or become extinct. It is a choice up to each of us as individuals, join our Neander cousins, or reach for the future. CHeers Larry


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:32 PM

Yes, I'm pretty sure there was a limited war, LEJ. But why would we want Canada anyway? :>) **GBG** (Don't want to start another war).

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

Danged, Lonesome EJ, guess you got the ol' bobert on that one. Guess ol' DougR is right after all. All issues have to be solved thru war or threats of war. Heck, I'm going down to the recruitin' office and sign up. Gonna go an' kill me some... ahhh... Arabs, no make that so Phillipinos...and some Irans and some Koreans commies... And then... ahhh, maybe if I have any bullets left, some Somalians... Some Iraqis... some, ahhhh, heck, might as well just kill a few Cubans... and, ahhh, heck, after that big ol' stinck with the Lympics... maybe a few French folk and some of them commie Ruskies.... BOBERT! BOBERT! You got a Ruskie on the payroll. THAT ONE DON'T COUNT. HE'S ONE OF THE GOOD EN' RUSKIES. Sorry folks, ol' bobert just funnin' and got a little carried away. But now that I'm back, I'm stcickin to the ideal that peaceful resolution is not only possible but on this shrinking planet.... necessary. Peace. Bobert.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM

An over-generalized appraisal of the world, as you see it, Bobert, is you see it as you wish it were. I wish it were that way. Unfortunately, it is not. Maybe someday.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM

"I have a dream...." Martin Luther King. Yeah, DougR, if we don't aim for high ideals, we'll get nothing. No goals, no progress. I don't want my kid and his kids to have to clean up the mess we left because of the "Well, that's the way it is" mentality of the folks on this watch...

"You may call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." John Lennon.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM

Yeah, Lonesome and Doug, there was an altercation between the US and Canada over the boundary in the west. There was a joint occupation agreement in effect. Pres. Polk was elected on the Oregon question and his "Fifty-four forty or fight" slogan. There was much argument on paper from both sides, with the usual posturing, but finally Britain acceeded to the current boundary with the Treaty of Oregon in 1846. Their reasons were several- In a war, Britain stood to lose Canada to a powerful neighbor. The British Navy could not participate in defence because of the location. The territory between the 49th parallel and the Columbia was small. Many American settlers (as well many from the British Isles) had come to the area, and were opposed to any conflict.
There was some sort of conflict on one of the islands- members of a ships crew coming ashore for water or supplies? - and I think some pigs paid the supreme price. Can't remember now; this is trivia that isn't in the better history books.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

bobert, although I think I'm right, I hope you are.

Thanks dicho, for the history lesson. I suppose our earlier altercations with English Canada during the 1812 War could also be considered a quarrel over boundaries.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

"They make a desolation and call it peace". "War is diplomacy, continued by other means". "Ultima ratio regis".
All different. All the same. All true. all false.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM

Welp, I'm not saying pax romana is always a bad thing. Depends on the romana. Whatever keeps people from each other's throats -- particularly when one or both parties have nuclear or biological weapons. But ... keeping that kind of "peace" perpetually through arms without working on the underlying affronts to justice will never be anything but an expensive and ultimately resource-exhausting proposition. Justice is the key, but when it's been denied and bungled and tangled from so many directions for so incredibly long ... it's pretty hard to see how much untangling can occur.

A pax on all y'all!

xo/ww


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM

I hesitate to confront a historian such as dicho, but during the berlin blockade I thought a few other military and civil aircraft helped with the ferrying of essential suppplies - not just Americans.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

"Opposing sides sit down at the table after one of them has defeated the other in a war."

Noone defeated the other side in Northern Ireland. Both sides realised that if they didn't find a way of stopping the fighting it would go on for ever.

Not a perfect peace, not a safe peace - but a peace of sorts. And if there is going to be an end to the bloodshed in the Holy Land, that is how it's going to come, not through the stronger side crushing the weaker side until the violence stops, because that is never going to work.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM

I stopped out of even reading this thread for the last few days, because from experience, so often they turn into dispiriting and destructive quarrels. Reading through it today I was really pleased to see that it hasn't happened, and it's stayed as a honest attempt by people to explain their different points of view.

Wars drive people crazy, and "irregular wars" drive them crazier still. People do things and feel things and say things that just don't make sense, and that they never would in ordinary life. The consequences is horrible atrocities, like the obscene killing of Daniel Pearl, with its accompaniment by a style of anti-semitism borrowed from European history, which has nothing to do with the culture of Pakistan.

"Turning the other cheek" doesn't mean giving in to violence.It means refusing to be drawn into the embrace of violence. I am sometimes surprised at how freely people sneer at the expression - more especially people who generally might say they have a lot of regard for the man from whom the expression comes.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:57 PM

Well, McGrath, I suppose we will see who is correct and maybe soon, eh? It certainly appears to me that Israel and Palestine are headed for all out war. I hope not, but it doesn't look good.

As to Northern Ireland, it doesn't appear to me that total peace has come to that Island yet, but only appears to be a lull in the unrest.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM

No it doesn't look good for the Holy Land, and it looks as if it only too likely to get even worse. But if (and I hope its when) peace comes, I am sure it will have to be through an agreement by people on both sides that they have had enough, not through any military victory short of genocide.

As for Northern Ireland, true enough there's no total peace, and there's always the possibility that things could slip back into war once more. But there's always that risk after every conflict, and it's balanced by a hope and a determination that it will not.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 01:18 AM

Wyo - the pax romana you describe was known in recent history as the Cold War. I'm not sure the current state of affairs is better, but I still would not want to revisit THAT one.

Regards,
Michael


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:31 PM

The fact that at the end of a war imposed conditions are laid on the table and agreed upon- whether they end hostilities for a period of years, or whether they lay the groundwork for more war in the foreseeable future - by its very nature implies a period of peace. Why, then, is it necessary for war to be fought? In other words, since we know that communication will eventually become essential, why haven't we evolved enough to head unerringly in that direction?

I think that when two or more countries cannot agree upon crucial points and decide to make war against each other, only the governments should meet on the battlefield.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

Because the peace that ensues after war invariably favors the point of view of the victor, the victor gaining concessions from the loser that would not have been granted without coercion.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM

Or, as Klausewitz said, the purpose of war is to bring about a more amenable frame of mind on the part of the enemy.

A


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM

Yep, LEJ, and Amos, I think you both nailed it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:25 PM

And that doesn't work in some conflicts. Sometimes you have conflicts where the weaker side is never going to give in, no matter how many times it's been beaten. Ireland was one such cases. I suspect Palestine is another.

I'm not saying "Isn't that heroic." The kind of thing that comes out of that kind of conflict is likely to be very ugly. But ending that kind of conflict can't be achieved by thinking in terms of victory.


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:31 PM

Interesting point, Sir Grath. In the absence of a partisan victory, I would imagine we get back to Ebbie's point - the only victory would be some kind of two-sided re-invention of terms which would provide a plus-sum resolution (win for both sides).

But for that to occur, a certain amount of new, fresh attention, unburdened by old deposits, would have to come into play, and there's such a bloody shortage in the world, donchaknow?

A


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Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: toadfrog
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 09:38 PM

Feder, old GUEST, there is a convention on this site that when you post stuff not related to music, it is appropriate to designate it with the initials BS. So far as I am concerned, it is NOT appropriate to copy inflammatory stuff from extreme rightwing publications and paste it into threads. Or to past political stuff into threads at all. That is called "trolling." It is an abuse of hospitality.

And kindly explain just why is it relevant that the author of this stuff gave you permission to jam it down our throats?


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