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BS: Men and the porcine element

CarolC 02 Feb 02 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,Bardford 02 Feb 02 - 02:26 AM
leprechaun 02 Feb 02 - 02:27 AM
Liz the Squeak 02 Feb 02 - 02:28 AM
Roger in Sheffield 02 Feb 02 - 02:36 AM
GUEST,Jack The Sailor 02 Feb 02 - 03:04 AM
gnu 02 Feb 02 - 04:11 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 02 - 04:55 AM
Dave Bryant 02 Feb 02 - 05:22 AM
gnu 02 Feb 02 - 05:27 AM
RichM 02 Feb 02 - 06:11 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 02 - 06:18 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 02 - 06:24 AM
RichM 02 Feb 02 - 06:29 AM
Murray MacLeod 02 Feb 02 - 06:32 AM
gnu 02 Feb 02 - 06:53 AM
Liz the Squeak 02 Feb 02 - 07:14 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 02 Feb 02 - 07:21 AM
gnu 02 Feb 02 - 07:50 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 02 - 07:59 AM
harpgirl 02 Feb 02 - 08:09 AM
gnu 02 Feb 02 - 08:35 AM
van lingle 02 Feb 02 - 10:26 AM
MMario 02 Feb 02 - 10:34 AM
Midchuck 02 Feb 02 - 11:14 AM
Desdemona 02 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM
Dharmabum 02 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM
kendall 02 Feb 02 - 12:58 PM
kendall 02 Feb 02 - 01:04 PM
Dharmabum 02 Feb 02 - 01:22 PM
kendall 02 Feb 02 - 01:45 PM
WyoWoman 02 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM
John P 02 Feb 02 - 02:42 PM
Ebbie 02 Feb 02 - 03:50 PM
Peg 02 Feb 02 - 04:25 PM
kendall 02 Feb 02 - 04:26 PM
kendall 02 Feb 02 - 05:12 PM
Ned Ludd 02 Feb 02 - 05:43 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 02 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 02 Feb 02 - 07:39 PM
JudeL 02 Feb 02 - 07:41 PM
Liz the Squeak 02 Feb 02 - 07:41 PM
Alice 02 Feb 02 - 08:06 PM
michaelr 02 Feb 02 - 09:58 PM
Chip2447 02 Feb 02 - 11:38 PM
Hrothgar 03 Feb 02 - 05:58 AM
gnu 03 Feb 02 - 06:49 AM
kendall 03 Feb 02 - 07:38 AM
gnu 03 Feb 02 - 07:42 AM
Peg 03 Feb 02 - 10:06 AM
Alice 03 Feb 02 - 11:25 AM
gnu 03 Feb 02 - 01:21 PM
WyoWoman 03 Feb 02 - 01:37 PM
catspaw49 03 Feb 02 - 02:08 PM
kendall 03 Feb 02 - 03:04 PM
gnu 03 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM
Liz the Squeak 03 Feb 02 - 04:58 PM
Ebbie 03 Feb 02 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 03 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM
CarolC 03 Feb 02 - 06:29 PM
kendall 03 Feb 02 - 08:04 PM
catspaw49 03 Feb 02 - 08:52 PM
kendall 03 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM
Desdemona 03 Feb 02 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 03 Feb 02 - 11:41 PM
CarolC 04 Feb 02 - 12:07 AM
CarolC 04 Feb 02 - 12:37 AM
JudeL 04 Feb 02 - 06:33 AM
GUEST 04 Feb 02 - 11:29 AM
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Subject: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:04 AM

I have a male friend who insists that men are pigs. I told him that I don't think men are pigs, but he said, "it's nice of you to say that but, yes, they are."

I know my son is not a pig. He's a fine and honorable young man.

Here's my question. Well, questions, actually. The first two are for the men to answer if they would be so good...

First of all, what do you think my friend means by "pig" in this context. What is it about men that makes them pigs (if in fact they are)?

Second, do you think men are pigs?

And third (for anyone to answer), to add a musical element to this thread, does anyone have any good songs about pigs they would like to share, whether they are in support of my friend's contention or not?

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:26 AM

Geez, Carol. Who is this friend of yours, and why has he divulged The Big Secret That Men Are Honour-Bound Never To Divulge?

I'll probably get in trouble somehow for this, but big hairy deal, so here goes:

Regards the pig definition: My guess, and this is just a guess, mind you, is that pig in this sense refers to the, um, baser qualities of this earthbound existence. Yer basic primal urges as motivators. Now I'm no psychologist, but I think that a lot of male behaviour is predicated on the biological need for procreation. Mostly it's buried under layers - codes of conduct, etc., and mostly, too, we're unaware that the 'pigness' is present. I'm no Buddhist, either, but I'll bet you that even an enlightened bodhisatva who has shed the raiments of desire will catch himself thinking not-so-pure thoughts about that woman over there. Like the joke goes - you get a penis and a brain, but you can only use one at a time. (Sorry guys, but I thought I'd use that line pre-emptively.)

Your son is fine and honourable. So am I, and so, I'm sure, are most of the men you know, as are most of the guys on the Mudcat. We prove it every day by doing fine and honourable things, like working in the community, writing beautiful music, and putting the toilet seat down. But we also make fart noises with our armpits, and we enjoy saying the word 'booger', and we like boobies. Yikes, maybe yer friend is insulting the pigs.

This is all hypothetical, of course. If I was a real pig, I'd be over there on one of those other sites.

Music content: there are a penful of pig songs in the song challenge. Also sanglachon songs. The sanglachon is a wild pig-type critter that roams the backwoods of France, invading peoples personal privacy.

Cheers, Bardford


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: leprechaun
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:27 AM

Does this have anything to do with that guinea pig you were going to get?


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:28 AM

Pigs are actually quite nice, clean animals who have no sweat glands and a fine, friendly and sociable nature.

Not all men are pigs. Some are koala bears. Unsociable, permanently doped out of their heads (all that eucalyptus you know....) and they have flatulence like you wouldn't believe.....

Some are sheep, thick and follow the crowd, some are snakes, smooth, dry and smothering.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:36 AM

Carol it might be easier to ask your friend what he meant
Since no one has asked the obvious, is he a gay man?, that could explain a lot


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:04 AM

There are worse things to be called than a pig. Pigs are intelligent and supremely useful creatures. There are many people, many of whom are men, who don't share those attributes.

One should note however, that when dealing with pigs, one should expect piglike behavior. Don't expect them to move aside and let the ladies be first to the trough.

In general I think that male humans behave in a more porcine manner. But since hogs are not prone to deceitful or cruel behavior, I believe that in the boar or sow, rather than a man or woman. The pig's greed and ill manners are much more honourable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:11 AM

I think men are groundhogs. We've even got our own day !

Looks like we're going to get sixteen more weeks of winter this year, because the furry little buggers, even if they could dig their way through the frost, would turn tail when they got to the three feet of snow we have on the ground.

Are men basically just lazy, dumb, selfish animals, aka, pigs ? Some. So are some women.

Am I a pig ? No. I'm gnu.... and I obviously need some tea to start my day off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:55 AM

Well, I did ask him, but he just did a Jack Nicholson impersonation and said, "The truth? You can't handle the truth!"

But I'm pretty sure he's not gay.

Thanks so much for that Bardford. But now I'm a bit concerned for your physical safety. You won't be finding a gang of goons on your doorstep preparing to break your knees now that you've told the secret, will you?

I really do appreciate these responses. I was more than a little concerned by my friend's assessment of men in this regard. I was afraid he might have meant that there are no men who can be trusted or who can be counted upon to behave with integrity in their dealings with women. I certainly don't want to believe that.

And I would still love to hear what others have to say about this, as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 05:22 AM

There is folk song - I think it's originally French. I've got it somewhere on my record of "Wait a Minim" (South African revue with Jeremy Taylor). It's sung with in French with the English translation following:

Little Jane she took her sickle
For to go and cut some flowers.

On the way she chanced to meet
Three young men - all very handsome.

The first was rather shy
He kissed her on the cheek.

The second - not so shy
He lifted up her pretty dress.

The third one a thoroughly bad sort
- No we won't tell you in this song

If you ladies only knew
You would also pluck some flowers !

The moral of this story
Is that men are just like PIGS

The moral of this moral
Is that WOMEN LOVE PIGS


The song is called something like L'arilletta which is sung as a chorus. I've heard it sung since and you can always what prportion of the audience understand the French words by who laughs when.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 05:27 AM

CC.... you've been up all night pondering this ? 0104 to 0455 ? You must be drinking some STRONG tea, maid.

CC said... "I was afraid he might have meant that there are no men who can be trusted or who can be counted upon to behave with integrity in their dealings with women."

There may be an iota of truth there, in that I know a lot of guys who don't trust women. Men are much more romantic, or "love" driven, than women when it comes to choosing a mate. Women choose based on the abilities of a man to be a good father. Men choose based on "love". Yup, they think with their dicks... until they mature, somewhere around thirty or forty years old. So, when a man takes on this attitude, due to a failed relationship(s) in which he believes the woma(e)n has(ve) treated him unfairly, and he is not yet mature, he may "proceed" without any intention of "calling her later". It's all about about trust and maturity... do unto others before they do unto you.

Love is the illusion that not all women are the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: RichM
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 06:11 AM

This, just emailed from a friend (male!),and presented with tongue firmly in cheek:

Damn, It's Great to Be a Man!!
* Your last name stays put.
* The garage is all yours.
* Wedding plans take care of themselves.
* Chocolate is just another snack.
* You can be president.
* You can wear a white T-shirt to a water park.
* Car mechanics tell you the truth.
* You don't give a rat's ass if someone notices your new haircut.
* The world is your urinal.
* You never have to drive to another gas station because thisone's just too icky.
* Same work... more pay.
* Wrinkles add character.
* Wedding Dress $5000; Tux rental $100.
* People never stare at your chest when you're talking to them.
* The occasional well-rendered belch is practically expected.
* New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle your feet.
* One mood, ALL the damn time.
* Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat.
* You know stuff about tanks.
* A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase.

* You can open all your own jars.
* Dry cleaners and hair stylists don't rob you blind.
* You can kill your own food.
* You get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness.
* If someone forgets to invite you to something, he or she can still be your friend.
* Your underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack.
* If you are 34 and single, nobody notices.
* You can quietly enjoy a car ride from the passenger's seat.
* Three pairs of shoes are more than enough.
* You don't have to clean your apartment if the maid is coming.
* You can quietly watch a game with a buddy for hours without thinking "He must be mad at me".
* You don't mooch off other's desserts.
* You can drop by to see a friend without having to bring a little gift.
* You are not expected to know the names of more than five colors.

* You don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt.
* You almost never have strap problems in public.
* You are unable to see wrinkles in your clothes.
* The same hairstyle lasts for years, maybe decades.
* You don't have to shave below your neck.
* Your belly usually hides your big hips.
* One wallet and one pair of shoes, one color, all seasons.
* You can do your nails with a pocketknife.
* You have freedom of choice concerning growing a mustache.
* You can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives, on December 24th,in 45 minutes.

Damn, It's Great to Be a Man!


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 06:18 AM

Still up here, Mr gnu. It sounds like you're saying that men get a kind of trench warfare mentality about women if they have a bad experience with one (or more than one). I suppose women might develop a similar state of mind with regard to men after they have experienced a failed relationship in which they feel that they have been treated unfairly, as well.

Doesn't look too promising for the walking wounded, does it? I'm envisioning all of these barricaded men and women colliding, with their defenses all bumping and crashing into each other. It almost seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Is there any hope?


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 06:24 AM

Damn, RichM. Now can you give me any reasons why I should remain a woman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: RichM
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 06:29 AM

Because I like you *just the way you are*, Carol...

Rich


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 06:32 AM

One version of the Pig Song". I do a different version which is more poignant and funnier. I will post the lyrics when I am fully awake.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 06:53 AM

CC... "Is there any hope?"

Of course. As long as it's the defenses that do the bumping first. Hope is always there, but, for most of the walking wounded, there's not much time left. Shite !!! I'm just a philosophizing fool here this AM. Must write some of these down before I forget them.

Yes, men and women are both subject to these results. However, I believe men are much more romantic by nature, thereby more easily duped, and tend to get cut deeper by betrayal. Kinda like how a dog is loyal even when beaten... until it snaps and will bite anyone. Still, you can only poke the dragon so many times before you get burnt. GEEZE, I gotta start a file ! Where are they coming from ? Must be the combination of tea and snow shovelling early in the AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:14 AM

So what animal does that make us ladies??

I like to think I'm a cat... soft, fluffy, independent; but it sort of falls apart when it comes to the sticking my ass in your face and licking my own private parts.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:21 AM

My favorite pig song is Tails and trotters by Judy Goodenough, right here in the DT. My morris team even does a dance to the tune!
Re your other question, not all men are pigs, any more than are all women. Carol, My son is also a fine upstanding gentleman. So is the other significant man of my acquaintance. But they both, and we all, are human, and that can lead to all kinds of trouble now and then. My two gentlemen excepted, of course (but I'm still in a rosy glow these days...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:50 AM

Nothing turns to hate quicker than love. Can't take credit for that one. My mother told me that one. Maybe that's where the sayings are coming from, my female side. It's postulated that we all have both male and female sides. I hope I never find mine... nevermind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:59 AM

I'll tell you something, gnu (yes, I'm still up).

I'm really, really sorry you were hurt so badly that you would feel the way that you do now. But I have to say that I'm in fundamental disagreement with you about how women experience these kinds of things, and how deeply we can be hurt and effected by them. I believe we feel them every bit as deeply as you say men do, and it hurts us just as much when they turn out badly. But I guess it would be pretty impossible for either one of us to prove what we believe is true, being, as we are, on opposite sides of the gender divide.

Thank you, everyone who is contributing the songs. I love them and think they are wonderful. And all perspectives on the questions are very much appreciated, whether I agree with them or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 08:09 AM

...ah,um, er...well I don't know all the men in the world yet, Carol but I told Nathan that when he leaves home I'm going to get a big hairy dog that eat's alot and sheds all over the house so I don't miss him! Does that help?

hg


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 08:35 AM

Geeze, CC. Just having a bit of fun, along with providing a view. Perhaps too much of a view ? I'm not bitter... if I'da been a dog, I'da bitter, but I'm not bitter. Shit happens. No need for you or anyone else to feel sorry for me. I took the beatings and didn't bite back. In the end, I'm stronger and smarter for it.

It's not that I don't trust anyone. I trust my mother. Does that count ?

Anyway, sorry if I skewed the thread.

Oink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: van lingle
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 10:26 AM

lol rich, i'm counting my blessings.
there's an old bluegrass song called pig in a pen that doesn't specifially portray men as pigs but the chorus does seem to indicate that the author may posess a bit of the porcine element. it goes:

i gotta pig a home and a pen,
corn to feed him on,
all i need is a pretty little girl,
to feed him when i'm gone.

i don't have an answer to your first ? carol. don't know why a hetero male would say that. the phrase "men are such pigs" is fairly common where i come from and is usually uttered, lightheartedly, in mixed company by one woman to another after a male in the group has made a sexist remark, told an off color joke, had a gaseous emission of some sort etc.
an emphatic no to the second ?. i often counsel my male friends that they have to be sensitive,caring people these days or they'll never get laid *g*. dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: MMario
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 10:34 AM

Hey! I could resent that!

Carol - I would say the best rule of thumb is to assume men are pigs until non-pighood is proven; and then accept the fact there will be lapses.

And I'm not saying this just because the women in my family outnumber the men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:14 AM

Liz, someone posed the question, "Why does a dog lick his balls?"

The answer, of course, was, "Because he can!

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Desdemona
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM

As the mother of 3 sons, I refuse to accept that all men are "pigs", pure & simple. HOWEVER, as an intelligent, educated & experienced woman, it is plain to see that many men possess certain "pig-like" qualities. That said, many women also possess qualities that could be described as somewhat porcine, be these associated with the above-mentioned "baser" elements of this earthly existence, a tendency towards gluttony, sloth or untidy personal habits. In other words: there's probably a little pig in all of us!

As for pig-related songs, the all-time best pig song since the beginning of Creation is, without question, "Zuckerman's Famous Pig" from the film of "Charlotte's Web"! My now-10-year-old son used to watch the video constantly, and I never stopped laughing at that song---it's a work of pure porcine genius!

"Oh, wow, look at him now, Zuckerman's famous pig...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Dharmabum
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I've gotta go with Mmario on this one. We men, for the most part,try to behave ourselves most of the time,but that mischievious little porcine surfaces every now & then.
Let's face it guys,if we had the capability to breastfeed,it wouldn't be long before we were running around the house squirting each other!

My ex wife once told me that when I got together with my buddies,we acted like a bunch of 14 year olds. I promtly informed her that she was crediting us with far more maturity than we deserved.

Pigs? Yea, sometimes, but nobody's perfect!

DB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:58 PM

I've been married to two women, (not at the same time) and it would be easy to blame them for the split, but, I've never been able to kid myself. I believe that the main problem is not bad partners, but rather, inappropriate partners. Why do men seek out unavailable women? why do women seek out abusive men? SO WE CAN BLAME THEM INSTEAD OF OUR OWN POOR CHOICE OF PARTNERS! When I hear a guy say, "All women are users, and fickle bitches" or a woman say "All men are no damn good" I want to say to them, "There are plenty of good women/men out there, you just dont give them a second look because they are boring." We call it chemistry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:04 PM

Men mature only after they have exhausted all other options.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Dharmabum
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:22 PM

Good One Kendall!

Both posts.

DB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:45 PM

Sus scrofa domesticus sounds better than "Pig"


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: WyoWoman
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM

I know just as many women who are unpleasant, short-tempered, rude, conniving and disingenuous, etc. as I know men who are all the above. Generally, however, their goals in using those particular weapons are different -- men do it for sex or some version thereof, women do it for security in various guises.

At our worst, men are stupid, but women are mean.

That said, I know just as many men who are delightful and fun and warm as I know women who are. We do tend to see things differently, and to approach situations from different directions, which can create some problems in communication. And men are more often commitment-phobes, and the SECOND many of them get a whiff that something's expected of them, they shut down or go away. This gets very old. But women have hidden agendas that we aren't straight about, which muddies the communication waters.

Complicated, yes? Compassion and rigorous speaking and listening are the only ways I can see to keep the wheels greased. And, oh, the delights when they ARE ...

ww


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: John P
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:42 PM

I find myself put off by statements that start "All men are . . ." or "All women are . . ." Does anyone really believe that? If you know more than two people of either sex, you see different aspects of people being people. If you know anyone longer than two months, you see him or her responding differently to similar situations depending on lots of other variables.

That said, yes, men and women tend to communicate differently, with emphasis on different aspects of any situation. And men (especially young ones) tend to think about sex more than women, or so I'm told. And more men tend to have sex outside their primary relationships more readily, or so I assume. Notice how often I said "tend to". Everything is a continuum, with most people nowhere near either end.

Are all men pigs? Not hardly. I think most people are pigs sometimes, and some people are pigs most of the time. I don't hang out with people who are pigs more than very rarely, so I don't worry about it too much. Most of my best friends (which includes my wife) are women. If the conversation is about sexual motivations and responses to stimuli, I understand my male friends better. If the conversation is about almost anything else, I understand my women friends better. I don't understand watching sports, enjoying working on cars, drinking beer, farting in public, spitting on the gound, endlessly discussing the ins and outs of relationships, getting angry over small slights, worrying about how much money a potential mate earns, or getting grossed out by the sight of a naked member of the opposite sex.

I assume everyone I meet is a good person, and I'm prepared for them to be very piglike. I give most people two opportunities to be piglike before I write them off, unless the first is so bad I can't ever trust them again.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:50 PM

VIENNA (Reuters) - A group of Austrian police officers who posed armed and naked for a calendar have been barred from the force's elite unit as punishment, a police spokesman said on Thursday.

Some 350,000 of the calendars have been printed, showing Austria's long arm of the law in the raw, with guns, handcuffs or nightsticks, and superimposed over photos of scantily clad women.

Some female listeners to a radio chat show in the southern city of Graz, where the men are based, rang in to praise their prowess, but the interior ministry was not amused.

The 10 officers were either members of, or looking to join Cobra, an elite unit whose tasks include providing security for important persons visiting Austria.

"This would mean people like the Pope," said ministry spokesman Major Rudold Gollia, who said they would not now be considered for Cobra and would be assigned to routine patrol duty.

Remember the 70s? Case closed.

:)

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:25 PM

I agree with John; there is no way to unequivocally state "all men are such and such" or "all women are such and such."

I also find the statements that "men are more romantic than women" and "women choose mates based on their ability to be good fathers" to be patently absurd...

I mean, HUH???


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:26 PM

W.W right on. Here is an illustration of the difference between men and women. If a man wants to disable a tank, he will take a bazooka and blow it all to hell. If a woman 3wants to disable a tank, she will sneak up on it, and pour sugar into the fuel tank. Same result, but, no noise. We are hard wired differently that's a fact. But, that does not preclude trying to understand each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 05:12 PM

There are many theories about why we choose certain mates. I don't know that I buy any of them. Harpgirl is probably better qualified to comment on this than I am. 1. We pick someone who can best recreate the pain we felt as children, then, at the same time, we expect them to play that part AND to make it go away. 2. Marriage is the completion of childhood. 3. Men marry their mothers. 4. Women marry their fathers. 5. Women are attracted to men who look like they have good genes. 6. Men are attracted to women who LOOK good in Jeans. (same idea, different approach) This should start an interesting discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 05:43 PM

You can tell a man what boozes, by the company he chooses and the pig got up and slowly walked away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:20 PM

I love this thread! What a great bunch of perspectives, and some mighty fine humor as well.

I find this one by Dharmabum to be comforting for some reason...

We men, for the most part,try to behave ourselves most of the time, but that mischievious little porcine surfaces every now & then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:39 PM

As far as songs go try out "Prom Night In Pigtown" written by John Gorka and recorded by Trout Fishing In America

And I hate to say it but some men are pigs because some women let them get away with it. We need to stop using phrases like "boys will be boys" to condone unacceptable behavior. In my opinion at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: JudeL
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:41 PM

One of the books I read when I was doing a unit in psycology had some very interesting stuff on research into physical and social conditioning basis for observed differences in gender behaviour. To do a quick and dirty paraphrase of the theory of the book. Apparently one of the reasons for the tendency towards different approaches to problem solving lies in the different ways the brains of babies and young children tend to develop. According to this reasearch as we learn groups of brain cells become dedicated to a particular type of task. Once they are so identified, this is what they then stay. Girls in general initially tend to develop quicker than boys. The first type of skills learnt tend to be generalist and language related. Those who develop slower initially tend towards a more specialised approach and to be more direct and have better spacial awareness. Society tends to compound these initial differences by its inbuilt expectations and assumptions about apt behaviour. And so on .... it all got very technical and took me quite some time to wade through all the jargon - but I think what it ended up saying is what we all know anyway viz men & women do tend to approach life differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:41 PM

"At our worst, men are stupid, but women are mean." Hey - I've known a couple of really mean men.... talk about mind control games.....

I agree that a woman can do practically anything a man can (I do the decorating and other DIY stuff around the house here, Manitas makes coffee and does the housework....) but there are some blokes out there who don't think that applies.. I had one partner who, if I bought a new electrical appliance would ask if the plug was already attached. If I said it was, or that the shop had done it, it was OK. If I said that I had put it on, he immediately cut the cord just below the plug and wired it himself in front of me WITHOUT EVEN CHECKING if it was incorrect or not. And that was just one of the smallest of his actions of mistrust and deceit.

He wasn't a pig though. I LIKE pigs. He was a Cambridge educated, public school, father "something in the Ministry" man with no money worries, a cut glass accent, "connections" and was a croquet champion. The slobby, greasy hairy biker I hung around with when I was 16 was 'piggish' in image, but a perfect gentleman who never shouted at me, even when I dropped his bike in a ditch.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Alice
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 08:06 PM

I ONLY WISH I had picked men on the basis of being a good father. Smack myself in the head, I screwed up by being too romantic and not looking at their character. Women are trained to be romantic, hence the term, "chick flick". Living in fantasy land when it comes to men - doesn't usually turn out too well.

My son so far only exhibits the porcine side by letting his room get kind of smelly with old laundry piled on the floor... but then he washes it himself. He told me when he was 13 to not wash his clothes any more, because he would rather do it himself. He does, about once a week, but in the mean time, the pile ferments.

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 09:58 PM

Carol - When your male friend says "men are pigs", he obviously includes himself. I think that as a friend, you should be concerned about his lack of self-esteem.

Having said that, I would add that such sweeping generalizations are irrational... along the lines of "all women are bitches" or "all Republicans are fascists" or "all GUESTS are trolls".

I do not find it useful to think like that, preferring instead to evaluate the people I encounter on an individual basis.

Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Chip2447
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:38 PM

OINK OINK...
S'cuse me, it just kinda slipped out.
Now, where did I put my book on Chivalry?

Chip2447


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Hrothgar
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 05:58 AM

Does this all go back to the twin problems?

Men marry women because they think they'll stay the same (and they change).

Women marry men because they think they can change them (and they can't).


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 06:49 AM

On a musical note, from Whiskey in the Jar :

He counted out his money and it made a pretty penny,
I put it in me pocket to take home to darling' Jenny.
She sighed and swore she loved me and never would deceive me
But the devil take the women for they always lie so easy.

Any thoughts ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 07:38 AM

yes gnu. This is the 21 century. It's different now. (Mostly)


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 07:42 AM

ooooo. Who pissed in your cornflakes ?

I actually think there's room for some in depth analysis here... seriously.

thoroughlymoderngnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 10:06 AM

some women are slobs, some men are neat freaks.

some men are softies who cry at movies, some women eat pork rinds in front of TV football.

some women can't boil an egg, some men can iron a shirt to perfection.

some (straight) men can wear an eggplant-colored dress shirt comfortably, some (straight) women go years without wearing lipstick.

I think assigning personality quirks based on gender is a slippery slope...because there are always many exceptions that prove the "rules." But it is true that we become socialized to engage in, and expect, certain behaviors which we associate with being "male" or "female."


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Alice
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 11:25 AM

Yes, Peg, I agree. I don't really like gender profiling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 01:21 PM

OK then !! Didn't want to kill the thread. I just wanted to see if any of the anyone would jump on me before they knew my point of view. Obviously, Jenny was on the side of justice in bringing in a criminal. Persuant to some posts to this thread, she was focussed on mate choice by looking at his career and moral fibre, while our robber was blinded by love. Had he chosen a mate based on mutual concerns and life goals, rather than on love, he may have escaped gaol. However, I doubt if many view the song in this light, and, more to the discussion at hand, I doubt if many viewed my post as anything but bitter.

Oink, eh ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 01:37 PM

Yup. I prefer to take my people, and form my assessments, one at a time. As for why people end up with the people they do? It's a crap game and a turkey shoot. (Or sometimes you just wish you'd shot the turkey!)

But ... I don't think having dissed men long enough and now convinced them that they are, indeed, pigs is an improvement over how things used to be. And I don't think having women ogling men's bums and making comments about their "package" is liberation. Once again, we accept the worst of both worlds and call it progress.

ww


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 02:08 PM

I'm almost sorry this thread took such a serious turn. I agree that sterotyping is not only still dominant, but generally a very bigoted attitude as well. People often are simply what they are outside of gender and the accompanying stereotypes.   Tim Allen made his career on that stereotype though and it was a far more relaxed style because for whatever reason, much of it was true.......overplayed certainly, but true to some degree. There is a good deal of humor to be found in the most innocent of things we do.

Do you remember the first time you realized that your parents had sex? I mean, you probably didn't want to believe it did you? Now that may be because of what we were taught, that sex was somehow dirty or whatever. It's an experience that most of us had. It's easy to have a laugh over it while also discussing the things we were taught and their correctness (or not). So...in that vein.......I get a kick out of a few of the Mom's here!!

Okay, your son is not a pig. My Mom believed that too because there are some things that aren't done!   I will bet however that your boys scratch their nuts......not with you around.....but they do, and often in public, providing you aren't there. There is a list of things that might be considered "piggy" and less than acceptable behaviors that men do......both as boys and men.......and parents are really not in the best position to see it. That's even more true if your son is intelligent and generally well behaved.....a model of decorous behavior.

So the next time you think your son didn't shout at his friend who said he had to go do homework (for instance), "Hey Tommy....I gotcher homework right here!" while holding his dick.........Try to remember how you felt when you realized your parents actually DID IT!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 03:04 PM

Only a mothers' certain knowledge that her children will be exceptional keeps her from drowning them at birth. (Lazarus Long)


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM

Shite !! Close call for me !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 04:58 PM

Which raises a philosophical question. If Hitler (insert tyrant of your choice)'s mother could have seen what would happen in the future, would they have drowned the infant at birth?

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 05:51 PM

Liz, in a short story I once wrote I postulated that question- in it, Hitler's mother does kill her only child- the reader eventually discovers that she is unknowingly pregnant with her second child- the one who really does end up being 'Hitler'. It is not possible to foresee all contingencies.

Back to the swinish (what an awful word!) question...

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM

HAH! Kendall, you belong over in the "Misquotations" thread. The correct quote is ""Delusions are often functional. A mother's opinions about her children's beauty, intelligence, goodness, et cetera ad nauseam, keep her from drowning them at birth." (Paperback edition, Time Enough for Love, p. 241)
The frirst sentence, IMHO, is the heart of the quote.
never thirst! (double message, am following the medical advice you are getting & hope all will be OK)


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 06:29 PM

Spaw, I still have a very difficult time believing my parents ever did it. And they had five kids. If you knew my parents, you would understand why.

And yes, my son does like to believe he was an immaculate conception.

I wasn't really thinking about slobbish behavior when I said my son's not a pig. I was thinking more about consideration for the feelings of others and being honorable in his dealings with others, including women. And believe me when I tell you, my son tells me everything (I really mean everything, because he likes to, not because he has to), so I would know it if he wasn't.

(P.S. If you don't believe me about my son telling me everything, ask Max. I made him close his ears when I told Emily about one of the things my son told me.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 08:04 PM

Pete, I was quoting from the condensed version. Pedantic is bad enough, but, being verbose AND pedantic, well...it's just not a New England thing. Brevity is the soul of wit, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 08:52 PM

No Kendall, brevity is the soul of lingerie.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: kendall
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM

hhmmm...that couldn't be the origin of "briefs" could it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: Desdemona
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 09:21 PM

And tediousness is just the flourishes for the outward limbs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 11:41 PM

Kendall, what's the old story about the Congregational minister talking to a priest, saying grandly "well, we each worship God, each in our own way". . . and the priest replied "yes, we do, you in your way, I in His." (A verbose and pedantic way of saying I try to get Heinlein quotes exactly. . . some of the good stuff is in the details)


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:07 AM

Well, I just got the answer to the burning question straight from the mouth of the horse (not pig) himself.

It seems that in the case of my friend, the statement "men are pigs" refers to that Jimmy Carter phenomenon wherin he finds himself having "lust in his heart". That makes pretty good sense to me, and doesn't sound like it means he is particularly lacking in character.

I still don't think men are pigs. This is what I said to my friend when he first told me that...

"Men are not pigs. Men are human beings, and human beings are fallible. As you know, women are fallible, too. We all do the best we can."

And I still believe that (mostly).

What an amazing thread this has been. Thanks everybody, for your input. I think I've learned a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:37 AM

P.S. I especially like this bit...

Having said that, I would add that such sweeping generalizations are irrational...I do not find it useful to think like that, preferring instead to evaluate the people I encounter on an individual basis

--michaelr

That's such a great word, "irrational".


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: JudeL
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:33 AM

Spaw : not brevity but lace is the soul of lingerie


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Subject: RE: BS: Men and the porcine element
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 11:29 AM

...supposedly there is an evolutionary 'survival-of-the-fittest' theory for the differences in men and women in regards to fidelity and monogamy (and selectivity). It has to do with reproduction and goes like this:

Assuming a healthy male, with each ejaculation men have the abilty to fertilize an egg. Their role in these matters is merely a passive one: to provide fertilization - to any egg, anywhere, anytime.

On the other hand, women have a window of only a few days each month within which to conceive.

Therefore, women tend to be more selective in choosing fathers for their children. Ostensibly, the mother would want to choose the 'strongest' male to fertilize her eggs in order to maximize the probability that her children survive.

It could explain why some men have a problem keeping their pants zipped and why some women play "hard to get."


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Mudcat time: 31 October 7:19 AM EDT

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