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Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation

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Haruo 24 Jan 02 - 12:53 AM
Haruo 24 Jan 02 - 12:54 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams - Guest - daw640@pobox.com 24 Jan 02 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams (again) 24 Jan 02 - 01:36 AM
sian, west wales 24 Jan 02 - 04:33 AM
Charcloth 24 Jan 02 - 07:10 AM
sian, west wales 24 Jan 02 - 08:31 AM
MMario 24 Jan 02 - 08:58 AM
wysiwyg 24 Jan 02 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams 24 Jan 02 - 09:56 AM
Dave Bryant 24 Jan 02 - 10:17 AM
Burke 24 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM
Haruo 24 Jan 02 - 03:31 PM
Burke 24 Jan 02 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Dave Williams 24 Jan 02 - 06:13 PM
Burke 24 Jan 02 - 06:32 PM
Mary in Kentucky 24 Jan 02 - 11:18 PM
hesperis 25 Jan 02 - 12:23 AM
Haruo 25 Jan 02 - 01:22 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams 25 Jan 02 - 03:22 AM
Mary in Kentucky 25 Jan 02 - 08:04 AM
sian, west wales 25 Jan 02 - 10:48 AM
Uncle Jaque 25 Jan 02 - 11:36 AM
Haruo 25 Jan 02 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Dave Williams 25 Jan 02 - 09:19 PM
Haruo 26 Jan 02 - 02:02 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams 26 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM
Malcolm Douglas 26 Jan 02 - 10:30 PM
sian, west wales 27 Jan 02 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams 29 Jan 02 - 12:44 AM
Burke 29 Jan 02 - 08:05 PM
Haruo 30 Jan 02 - 03:29 AM
Snuffy 30 Jan 02 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Dave Williams 04 Feb 02 - 05:49 PM
Haruo 06 Mar 02 - 12:13 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Mar 02 - 05:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Mar 02 - 05:27 AM
greg stephens 06 Mar 02 - 06:11 AM
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DMcG 09 Mar 02 - 06:43 AM
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Subject: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:53 AM

I just borrowed Llyfr HYMNAU A THÔNAU y Methodistiaid Calfinaidd ynghyd â Salm-Dônau ac Anthemau... from the library. This is a Methodist Calvinist hymnal published in 1897, apparently a reprint or revision of one put out in 1859 to judge by the date on a prefatory article called "Rhaglith".

In addition to a fair number of metrical Psalms and canticles, and 23 hymn texts in English, it has 955 (!) hymn texts in Welsh, and 468 hymn tunes, which are transcribed in a musical notation I am unfamiliar with.

To take a familiar tune (Henry Smart's REGENT SQUARE, which most of us know as "Angels from the Realms of Glory" if not by its proper name) as an example, the first line is given as follows (hope my reproduction works!):
 Doh C.
/|S :m |d' :s | m' :-.r'|d' :s |L :l |s :d' | s :f |m :— ||
{|M :d |s :m | s :-.s |s :s |D :d |d :d | r :t' |d :— ||
{|D' :s |s :d' | d' :-.t |d' :d' |L :d' |s :l | s :s |s :— ||
\|D :d |m :d | s :-.f |m :m |F :f |m :l' | t' :s' |d :— ||

Does anybody here know this system well enough to explain it to me, or know what it's called or where on the Web I might find it explicated (preferably in English, my Welsh is in the shop)? There are some tunes in here I would very much like to be able to make MIDIs of, but at the moment I might as well be looking at Sumerian hieroglyphic musical notation. Well, that's not true. I know what the lower-case letters stand for, at least, but the rest of it is pretty much a mystery to me. Now I'll find out if all that typing was for naught...

Liland

PS: Third try, after inserting some line breaks that I thought were unnecessary. Would some clone be kind enough to excise my first attempt? Thanks. I really am sorry, but on the other hand I really do want this to look right and really am interested in the issue.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:54 AM

Pretty darn close that time. Could the other two attempts be removed? 'Preciate it!
Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams - Guest - daw640@pobox.com
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:27 AM

Hi Liland,

What you've got is known as "solfa" notation. It is an ancient method of notation for people who could not read music or anything else. Many of the world famous Welsh Male Voice Choirs still use it extensively if not exclusively.

d is do, r is re, m is mi, f is fa, s is sol, etc. The prime (') indicates an octave up: d' is high C (in the key of C). A very brief explanation can be found at: http://www.iks.hu/literacy.htm

Now that you know what you're looking for, maybe you can find more info on the net. Have fun!

Cofion gorau (Best wishes),

Dave Williams


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams (again)
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:36 AM

Whoops! Forgot to mention that the reason you have four lines is that the hymns are in four part harmony, SATB (or TTBB, if you have a male choir). We still sing them that way! Part singing in Wales is mentioned as far back as the 12th Century.

I'm told that part singing (as opposed to unison) developed in only four places on earth - Wales, the Ukraine, Italy, and among the Zulus, although some claim the Romans took it back to Italy when they pulled out of Britannia! :-)

Dave W.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:33 AM

Dave's said it all very well. I'm not sure that I don't have the same book ... which was my Aunt's. Perhaps Dave will correct me, but I think that all the denominations in Wales published 'tonic solfa' editions right up until the present day when they have now published a joint hymn-book with something like 997 hymns. This too is available in tonic solfa.

An historical note: there's a religious ballad in the National Library of Wales (I think by Jane Hughes) circa 1818? 1820? condemning the introduction of solfa singing in worship. She was dead against anything that restricted the spiritual flow and spontaneous variations which true religious sentiment should generate (apparently). Friends of mine have suggested that the Welsh might have sounded more like the Wee Free services in Scotland's Western Isles at some point in the past...

Still stalking those hymns, then, Liland? I have an old American Welsh hymnal with a Welsh translation of My Country Tis of Thee!

sian, west wales


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Charcloth
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:10 AM

Cool! I have seen & used shape notes before, but this is something new to me.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:31 AM

Well, sol-fa was taught in Canadian schools at least into the 1960s. I remember doing it up to Grade 8. Most school rooms had a ... Curwens? Modulator (sort of a chart) hanging somewhere for sol-fa drill!

Sol-fa is related to shape-note of course, although I don't know much about shape-note ... which is the fa-so-la system, yes? I've read ... Sound of the Dove? (working from memory here) and it seems that very early reference was made to the role of churches in the Welsh Tract (Pennsylvania)in the emergence of the fa-so-la tradition.

sian


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:58 AM

Best of Luck, Liland!

- see the thread I had a couple weeks ago on tonic solfa.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 09:04 AM

Mmario, sounds like Dave Williams (post & e-mail above) and Sian could help you out-- cool!

~S~


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 09:56 AM

Liland,

Since you're something of a language aficianado (I checked your website) you might be interested in the Hymnals published by the Welsh National Gymanfa Ganu Association. Check them out at our website (www.wngga.org) on the Publications page.

We also have a secular songbook described there called Caneuon y Ddraig (Songs of the Dragon). This one includes an example of penillion singing, a uniquely Welsh art form. The melody is played on an instrument (often, a harp) and the singer sings a countermelody harmonizing with the instrument. The countermelody is often improvised by those who are really good at it.

Many of the old favorites (and widely known songs) from Gwlad Ganu (the Land of Song) are included, as well as current folksongs such as Yma O Hyd (We're still here), sometimes called the unofficial Welsh National Anthem by Dafydd Iwan.

I'd better quit. This is starting to sound like a commercial!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 10:17 AM

If you're interested in another SOLFA scheme, take a look at the "shape note" method method used by the American "Sacred Harp" movement. The tune is written in a normal stave and "dots" system, but instead of all the note-heads being elliptical, different head shaps are used for different TONIC SOLFA (Do, Re, Me etc) positions. As it would be difficult to use seven different shapes, the scale is split in two and I think only 4 shapes are used. For more details see the FASOLA (fa, so, la) site HERE

If you like part-singing, try some SACRED HARP - it's fun.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Burke
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM

There's not much relationship between shape note & tonic sol-fa notion. They are both designed to help in learning to read music, but became systems on their own whose users did not really transfer over to round notes. They are also both based on the principal of a movable 'do.' This is different from continental systems that used fixed do, which is always C.

There's a good article on it in Grove's dictionary.

To learn to interpret, I suggest reading the thread MMario mentioned. Then read the Grove article. Then practice on the tunes you know for the real practical application.

I have a copy of the Hallelujah Chorus in Tonic sol-fa. I took it to a party with a bunch of Sacred Harp singers & we just started singing. We did not know about key changes so kept breaking down. Someone in the group 'broke the code,' explained it to us & we were off. It was a hoot.

Dave, I already have a WNGGA Hymnal & don't use it enough to justify buying the Phonetic version. Why that bright yellow? You'll make the duffers really stand out in the crowd.

Will there be information later on the schedule for the National Gymanfa Ganu? I'll probably be near Reading on that Saturday for a Sacred Harp singing & it would be fun to hit the National one of the other days.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 03:31 PM

Thanks, all. Fascinating. Still can't figure out sharps/flats and lengths. Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Burke
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:01 PM

First off, here's MMario's recent thread. I quoted Groves on the timing.

From your example & assuming 4/4 time. The 1st, 3rd measures are all even quarter notes. The 2nd
| m' :-.r'|d' :s |

mi is dotted quarter (-. means hold that note over half of the next beat)
re is an eighth
do & sol are both quarter notes

The 4th measure starts with 3 quarter notes, for the 4th beat check the spacing & dashes. It's either a rest (empty) or if a dash, hold the 3rd note 2 beats.

Chromatic degrees are noted by changing the vowel of the sol-fa name concerned. Sharpened notes use 'e' (pronounced 'ee'), flattened notes use 'a' (pronounced 'aw').


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:13 PM

Beats me, Burke. I'm not too fond of the color scheme of the phonetic version either. And your point about standing out is well taken, too.

There is a link on the WNGGA Homepage for the 2002 National Gymanfa Ganu in Harrisburg. Just follow it to reach the page with all the details, including links to Harrisburg's own site and to the sites for the hotels providing accomodations. The National is always held over the Labor Day weekend, and the date of the Gymanfa Ganu itself is 1 September, 2002. We'll be happy to have you.

For those unfamiliar with a Gymanfa Ganu (singing festival), it is a Welsh cultural tradition which arose in the early 1840s as the Chapels' response to combat the upswing in alcohol abuse brought on by the delights of the Industrial Revolution - 12 to 14 hour days in the coal pits (mines) and iron and steel mills, 6 year old children of both sexes working down the pits and in the mills, etc. Of course, these deplorable conditions weren't exclusive to Wales, they just got an earlier start there because that's where the IR first hit its full stride. In any case the Chapels began to have Cymanfoedd (plural) to keep people out of the pubs. Congregations would gather and engage in hymn singing for hours on end.

The National GG today preserves that tradition and it is still alive in Wales too, in spite of the fact that the Chapels have fallen on hard times. On the Sunday of Labor Day weekend people of Welsh background (or just interested people, - you don't have to be Welsh) gather to sing. There are two sessions - afternoon and evening - for a total of about 6 hours of great sound and that good old Welsh "hwyl" that Sian mentioned ("the spiritual flow generated by true religious sentiment" and just plain old beautiful music). Attendance should be about 2000 singers in Harrisburg.

Part of the weekend (Friday evening) is devoted to a banquet and (Saturday evening) a concert by (usually) a Male Voice Choir. This year's group will be the Brythoniad Male Voice Choir from the slate mining region of Blaenau Ffestiniog in North Wales.

Starting to sound like a commercial again, but what the heck, a little information never hurts. Never can tell who might be interested!!

Dave W.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Burke
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:32 PM

Thanks, I did not see the additional link from the announcement at your site.

"The Sunday School Movement: How the Welsh used Sol-Fa to Learn Part Singing of Hymns" look like one for Liland, but I think he's on the West coast.

I'll try to go on Sunday. As someone who really likes to sing the hymns, what I don't like about the GG is so many soloists! If one did not know this was a lot of hymn singing, This information would not really let you know.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:18 PM

Dave, keep talking, I like your "commercials." (you never can tell who might be interested)

Can you tell us more about:
penillion singing, a uniquely Welsh art form. The melody is played on an instrument (often, a harp) and the singer sings a countermelody harmonizing with the instrument. The countermelody is often improvised by those who are really good at it.

I can't make it to Harrisburg...so is there a site on the net where I can hear examples?

And Burke, thanks for the explanation of MMarios question. I struggled with that example and could make no sense of it!


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:23 AM

You definitely never know. This is AWESOME! And it will be very useful! Thanks.

I, too, want links for penillion singing, though I think I have a general idea of it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:22 AM

Yes, I'm on the West Coast. Seattle. We do have an active Welsh choir here, whose concerts I have religiously avoided ever since I was a child. Actually, I've almost gone to one twice, but each time fate or weather or something intervened.

Thanks for all the info and links and whatnot. I'll say more tomorrow.

It's getting late here.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:22 AM

A very nice link in, of all places, GERMANY!!

http://www.josef-bayer.de/wales/index.htm.

Has information not only on penillion, but on the Cymanfa Ganu and a lot of history and even current music. Very comprehensive. The site is owned by Josef Bayer and family. He is married to a Welsh lady from Pembrokeshire (West Wales) and they have two daughters. Lots more on the site, but my German's a bit rusty. The section relevant to Wales is, however, in English. Well worth the time.

There are many other sites. Just type in penillion in your favorite search engine.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any samples on the net. Not popular enough to put up I suppose. However, Sain (pronounced sine) has tapes and CDs for sale at their website

http://www.sain.wales.com/english/sainshop/catalogue/cerdddant.htm

Dave Williams


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:04 AM

I think this link will get you to the Wales Music page. (or leave off the word "index" in the above link to get to the Wales page)


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 10:48 AM

Just a wee note on penillion. If you say, "canu (singing) penillion", the majority of people will assume you mean the practice mentioned by Dave above. Strictly speaking, though, you can also sing the same tune as the accompaniment and just do verses that come to mind and fit the meter, stringing them together. There are a host of Welsh songs like that - Ymryson Canu, Tribannau Morgannwg, Ram, et al. Sometimes there was a competitive side to it, particulary in social gatherings around Christmas, May festival, and so on.

The overall practice is called Cerdd Dant (singing to the strings), and a search on that phrase will get you a lot of references to available albums. There's a Cerdd Dant Society which puts on a large competitive festival every year which also has categories for folk song and dance in general.

I was at a lecture a couple of years ago given by Cas Meurig (of the group Pigyn Clust)who plays the crwth. Her subject was "Singing to Fiddle Accompaniment in the 18th Century (in Wales)" and she said that the harp was the first choice for singing penillion, but fiddle and crwth were good second preferences. The fiddle had more or less displaced the crwth during the 18th C.

A lot of tunes like Llwyn Onn (The Ash Grove) and Jenny Jones are probably heard over here more often as the harp side of cerdd dant than they are as songs in themselves.

Thinking out loud now: I wonder if cerdd dant survived Victorian Chapel Wales in the 19th C - when the fiddle almost didn't - because it was, by then, associated with the harp, about which Victorians Chapel-goers might have been dubious, but accepted because of its mainstream classical connections. Hmmm. I'm gonna have t' ask someone about that ...

But at least I got us back to hymns! (Kinda - chapels count, don't they?)

BTW, I grew up in the North Am. GG circles and loved every minute of both the Nationals and the Ontario GG. Don't suppose I'd know anyone there now - but we had some great times! Also got to see a lot of Canada & the US.

sian, west wales


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:36 AM

I'll have to look up the thread I posted here some time ago on the "Sol-Fa" notation; it started when I bought a book of Scottish songs at a flea-market, most of which are in SolFa. Folkie-Friends told me what it was & helped to explain it, and we did some internet research as well.
Can't say that I ever did figure it out sufficiently to sing by it, but it tweaked my interest in a couple of ways:

For one thing, since it is, like "Shape-Note" notation, based on "Intervals" rather than a set of fixed, specific notes on the scale, we may play it on instruments of limited key options, like the tin whistle or fife; a couple of my personal favorites. This saves a lot of time transposing scores into "D" (##) or "G" (#), the most fife- friendly keys to play in without a lot of half-holing, cross-fingering, and all that stuff. Once we decide that "Do" is what we're going to start with - a note (pick a note; any note)that works well with voice or instrument - off we go from there.

The other tantilizing thought was that it might be used as a form of communicating scores accross media like this one, limited to standard text fonts and punctuation marks instead of staff, bars, notes, stems and the like - which not all of us have in our font archives. Besides, I really don't think that this setup could handle it even if we did.

After some experimentation, it seems that someone more adept at PC manipulation is going to have to pull it off, if it can be done. Especially with the HTML format we have here, it would be a bear to get it to come through in any readable form, even if Mudcatters did want to learn the system.. and i'm not at all sure that many of us really do!

Then along came that nifty little "MIDI-to-TEXT" program, which I think works just jiffy once we have it figured out, and which IMHO pretty much eliminates the need for us to go bonkers trying to send each other Solfa hyroglyphics over E-mail or discussion forums. Or is it "Fori"... oh; never mind...

As I recall, (without looking it up) SolFa isn't all that "Ancient" really; didn't it start in some Scots Music School in the 1840's sometime?

If you really want "Ancient" musical notation, see my post of last Spring sometime regarding "Music of the Bible Revealed". A French woman has been doing research of ancient music forms from the Byzantine Empire, Rome and Greece for around 60 years, and has even come up with a system for decoding the mysterious little "jots & tittles" of ancient Hebrew Biblical texts into musical notation. She claims that this is the "lost" music of the ancient Temple Worship, and that the whole Old Testament is actually a vast Cantata, set to music - meant to be sung rather than spoken. I have her book, and it is interesting indeed!


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 05:21 PM

Apparently, from my reading in Grove's and Harvard reference books last night, this system was also the basis of the Kodály notation, and is closely related to a German system called Tonika-Do.

Dig out that thread, Uncle Jaque!

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:19 PM

Sian, if I'm not being too nosy, when were you involved with the Nationals and the OGG? I've been involved for only about 10 years myself and, like you, have loved every minute of it. You may be surprised at how many people you know - some of these Welsh folks seem to go on forever!! For example, Douglas Jones, one of the founders of the OGGA just passed on 3 years ago, and that was the result of an accident.

If ever you get to this side of the pond again, come at the end of August and join us at a National. Love to have you! (2004 is scheduled for Niagara Falls, and is to be in honor of long-time WNGGA Executive Secretary Nelson Llewellyn who is very much alive and a very close friend)

Liland, I'm curious as to why you "religiously avoided" a hymn-singing festival (Very good, BTW) when you seem to be interested both in hymns and in language?

And, Uncle Jaque, I thought solfa developed in the 17th C, but of course I could be wrong.

Dave Williams


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:02 AM

Dave, I was kidding about the "religious" avoidance. Actually I have twice "tried" to attend but both times forces beyond my control intervened to stop me. Religion is just an easy mark to blame. I should probably have been honest and written "that I have known about but never actually attended". Maybe this year. Looks like the next event will be March 3rd at St. Andrew's. I really truly will try this time.

(To reply to what you said to Uncle Jaque...) Sol-Fa as a whole I think dates from the 17th century, but "Tonic Sol-fa" of the specific kind used in Welsh hymnals apparently was invented by a Rev. Curwen in the 1800s (don't recall exactly when); in England, I thought, rather than Scotland. (Again based on what I read yesterday in the music dictionary.)

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM

Liland,

Ooooh, I get it:-D

Thanks for the clarification on the solfa history!

Dave W.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:30 PM

Tonic Sol-Fa was developed in England by James Curwen, a Congregationalist minister, in the 1830s-40s; he based it on a "movable doh" teaching system being used by a Miss S.A. Glover of Norwich.  It became particularly popular in working class Nonconformist communities; particularly in Wales, Scotland and the North of England.  Many song books of the later 19th and early 20th centuries -the New National Songbook of the 1950s, for example- gave tunes in both TSF and conventional staff notation; nowadays TSF seems to be on the way out, perhaps because it's not sufficiently specific.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:29 AM

Dave, I was active from around 1958 to 1980 (when I moved to Wales). I was a trustee and secretary of OGGA from, oh, 1977 ish? to 1980. I was also the first Vice-Pres. of WAY and a founding member of Cymdeithas Madog. I do get back at least once a year ... but never at Gymanfa time. (Not sure I could afford going anyway!) I don't suppose I would have ever moved to Wales if I hadn't been so involved in 'our' community!

sian


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 12:44 AM

Sian, if you happen to get over in the Spring there is the OGGA Welsh Festival in April. It will be in Kingston, ON this year, and I'll let you know the exact date as soon as I find it. There is a Nosen Lawen [Merry Evening] on Friday night, a Concert on Saturday, and the Cymanfa on Sunday (Fewer days than the WNGGA affair in Aug/Sept and also a bit less expensive, depending on the rate of exchange). There is almost always a Male Voice Choir for the Concert. I wasn't able to make it myself last year, but in 2000 they had Cor Meibion Tredegar who did a lovely job.

From what I understand, Cymdeithas Madog is doing quite nicely, and I think you have a right to be very proud of your involvement in its founding. It has provided and continues to provide a real service.

For those who don't know, but may be interested, Cymdeithas Madog [The Madog Society], the Welsh Studies Institute of North America [www.madog.org] provides intensive instruction in the Welsh language through Cwrs Cymraeg [The Welsh Language Course], their residential language course and also provides casette tapes for learners.(It is named for Prince Madog the _real_ discoverer of the North American continent - before all those Vikings and Italians, etc.) ;-)

Dave Williams


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Burke
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:05 PM

Is there an admission charge for the singing on Sunday? I'm not used to that sort of thing. Offerings, yes; admission, no.

What's the difference between Cymanfa and Gymanfa?

Here's Uncle Jacque's old thread. Here's another even older one.


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:29 AM

Welsh words change their initial letters for little or no known reason ;-) (actually there are very well known and portentous reasons, but they're not evident to the neophyte).

Liland
neophyte when it comes to Cymraeg, or is it Gymraeg...


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 09:15 AM

... or Chymraeg

... or Nghymraeg

if I remember correctly


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: GUEST,Dave Williams
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 05:49 PM

All of the above, depending on the word which precedes it (Cymraeg)!!!

There is a $10 registration fee for the National Gymanfa Ganu, Burke. It applies to any or all portions of the event.

A little more detail about mutations (the change in initial letter of Welsh words): the word "cymanfa" means an assembly or gathering. "Cymanfa Ganu" means a singing gathering or singing festival. When the word "y", meaning "the" precedes "cymanfa", the "c" changes (mutates) to a "g". Mutation is not much different than slurring words in any language, such as pronouncing "water" as "wadder", except that it has become formalized.

Sian, the Ontario Welsh Festival is on 26 - 28 April in Kingston. Hotel rates $99 Canadian per night at the Ambassador. Contact Myfanwy Davies, #2 - 3205 Uplands Drive, Ottawa, ON K1V 9T3.

Dave Williams


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:13 AM

I made it to the Dewi Sant celebration last Sunday at St. Andrew's Episcopal Church, had a wonderful time although I got there too late for the folk part (Red Dragon Band), and the overflow crowd (well over 300, I'd say) meant I had to do without words for the rousing congregational renditions of Men of Harlech, Ar Hyd y Nos, Cwm Rhondda and the Welsh National Anthem. My goal is to know them well enough next year that I can sing right along even if I don't have the words in front of me.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:12 AM

Mutations of initial letters are common in Welsh, as in most languages. It's just that in Welsh they have been structured.
Just think of the English practice of dropping initial aitches, and ignoring certain mid word letters. Government is often Govermunt. Double You (W) is often Dubber you.
Welsh has 3 types of mutation, Soft, nasal, and aspirate.
Soft is the most common as it affects 9 (welsh) letters.C,P,T,G,B,D,Ll,M,Rh.
Nasal affects 6. C,P,T,G,B,D.
Aspirate affects 3. C,P,T.
Just to give the soft mutations,
C-> G Cymru-> i Gymru (Wales -. to Wales)
P-> B Porth -> i Borth (to Porth)
T-> D Tonyrefail -> i Donyrefail (To Tonyrefail)
G-> _ Gwaelod-y-Garth -> i Waelod-Y-Garth (To Gwaelod)
B-> F Bala -> i Fala (to Bala) the single F in Welsh is pronounced as an English V
D-> Dd Dolgellau -> i Ddolgellau (to Dolgellau) The Dd is a single letter sounded as in The or With
Ll->L Llandaff -> i Landaff (to Llandaff) The Ll is a single letter which causes tremendous problems for the English (but not Dutch or Germans) it is pronounced by pressing the tongue against the roof of the mouth, blowing out below the tongue, and then bringing the tongue down.
M-> F Meirionydd-> i Feirionydd (mutated words starting with an F can be difficult to find in dictionaries, as the original word can start with either B or M!)
Rh-> r Rhyader -> i Ryader (to Rhyader)


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:27 AM

Sorry for duplication, my Server timed me out, but still accepted it!


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:11 AM

Expect all I'm about to say is in another thread, but here goes anyway. Everybody, but everybody, must be familiar with tonic solfa notation from Julie Andrew's little aide-memoire: "Doe a deer, a female deer, Ray a drop of golden sun". And all good Mudcats must know Woody Guthrie's "Do Re Mi". Now I'll get technical. Julie Andrews in Sound of Music used Ti (Tea a drink with jam and bread) for the 7th of the scale, but in most countries Si was used,and has been since the 17th century(initially proposed in 1547). Pha was also used in the 17th century, but it must have been confused with Fa, and never caught on. Ut was used for the 1st of the scale till the 17th century,when it was generally replaced with Do. First proposed by an Italian composer called Bononcini apparently in 1673, don't know why.. (Ut is still used instead of Do in France, or atleast it was when I was a lad. I was depping in a band in Paris in 1961 and I borrowed a guitarists chord book. I had to learn bloody fast that Ut7 meant C7 and Sibemoll meant Bflat). Anyway, it all started with a Latin hymn from 800 AD(ish) which went "UTque queant laxis/ REsonare fibris/MIra gestorum/ Famuli tuorum/ SOLve polluti/ LAbii reatum. Each line started on the rising notes of a major scale, so it gave rise to the notation system. And it didnt have a seventh line, hence the confusion about settling on an agreed name for that note. Well, I hope that's clear as mud to everyone. .


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: Haruo
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:02 AM

Thanks, Greg, I understood what you said, and knew most of it except the names of who proposed what and when, but I don't see how the Mary Poppins song has anything to do with "Tonic solfa notation" of the kind this thread addresses. If you look at the opening item, you will see the kind of notation in question, copied out as best my HTML would let me from a Welsh hymnal. The question wasn't what the names of the notes were, but how you could even get a note out of that mix of initial letters, hyphens and colons.

Liland
who was at once relieved and let down to find all the notation at the Dewi Sant shindig was normal music stuff


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 05:31 AM

D is doh(d the octave above), R is re etc etc. S(s)is the seventh of the major scale(not t for teathe drink with jam and bread). etc etc. the rhythmic notation can be worked out quite readily if you cant find it on a website. All takes a bit of figgering, but it's not really hard, just takes getting used to. good luck greg


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Subject: RE: Help: Odd old Welsh hymnal music notation
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 06:43 AM

You may be interested in looking at Melody Assistant from www.myriad-online.com that can cope with FaSola notation as well as most other representations (include ABC!)


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