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Guns and hunting

little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 10:27 AM
Big Mick 17 Dec 01 - 10:38 AM
kendall 17 Dec 01 - 10:44 AM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Adrienne 17 Dec 01 - 10:53 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 10:55 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 10:57 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Bambi 17 Dec 01 - 11:08 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:10 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:13 AM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 11:17 AM
Kim C 17 Dec 01 - 11:20 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:22 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:24 AM
Big Mick 17 Dec 01 - 11:29 AM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 11:33 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:34 AM
Big Mick 17 Dec 01 - 11:37 AM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM
Gervase 17 Dec 01 - 11:44 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:45 AM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 11:48 AM
Jon Freeman 17 Dec 01 - 11:58 AM
Kim C 17 Dec 01 - 12:06 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 12:11 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 17 Dec 01 - 12:13 PM
Jeri 17 Dec 01 - 12:16 PM
Mary in Kentucky 17 Dec 01 - 12:19 PM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 12:27 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 12:31 PM
katlaughing 17 Dec 01 - 12:39 PM
Mary in Kentucky 17 Dec 01 - 12:47 PM
Rick Fielding 17 Dec 01 - 12:59 PM
harpgirl 17 Dec 01 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Whistle Stop 17 Dec 01 - 01:23 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 01:25 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 01:33 PM
Sigma Alpha Rho 17 Dec 01 - 01:34 PM
Big Mick 17 Dec 01 - 01:37 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 01:47 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 17 Dec 01 - 02:08 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 01 - 02:19 PM
catspaw49 17 Dec 01 - 02:21 PM
wysiwyg 17 Dec 01 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 17 Dec 01 - 02:31 PM
Bobert 17 Dec 01 - 02:40 PM
catspaw49 17 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM
Jeri 17 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 03:06 PM
kendall 17 Dec 01 - 03:23 PM
catspaw49 17 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM
Sorcha 17 Dec 01 - 03:40 PM
Kim C 17 Dec 01 - 03:42 PM
katlaughing 17 Dec 01 - 03:43 PM
little john cameron 17 Dec 01 - 03:58 PM
Bert 17 Dec 01 - 04:02 PM
Fortunato 17 Dec 01 - 04:05 PM
DougR 17 Dec 01 - 04:08 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 04:11 PM
DougR 17 Dec 01 - 04:26 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 17 Dec 01 - 04:36 PM
Chip2447 17 Dec 01 - 04:54 PM
gnu 17 Dec 01 - 05:10 PM
kendall 17 Dec 01 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 17 Dec 01 - 07:42 PM
harpgirl 17 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM
kendall 17 Dec 01 - 09:13 PM
kendall 17 Dec 01 - 09:21 PM
kendall 17 Dec 01 - 09:30 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 01 - 10:08 PM
DougR 17 Dec 01 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,GUEST (a different one) 17 Dec 01 - 10:16 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 01 - 10:22 PM
Big Mick 17 Dec 01 - 10:46 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 01 - 10:53 PM
Big Mick 17 Dec 01 - 11:09 PM
Chip2447 17 Dec 01 - 11:38 PM
marty D 18 Dec 01 - 12:50 AM
kendall 18 Dec 01 - 05:39 AM
gnu 18 Dec 01 - 06:41 AM
kendall 18 Dec 01 - 09:02 AM
Big Mick 18 Dec 01 - 09:09 AM
Jeri 18 Dec 01 - 09:24 AM
Fortunato 18 Dec 01 - 09:28 AM
SINSULL 18 Dec 01 - 12:23 PM
kendall 18 Dec 01 - 12:25 PM
X 18 Dec 01 - 12:33 PM
catspaw49 18 Dec 01 - 12:49 PM
Maxine 18 Dec 01 - 01:01 PM
Fortunato 18 Dec 01 - 01:10 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Dec 01 - 06:17 PM
X 18 Dec 01 - 07:32 PM
kendall 18 Dec 01 - 08:03 PM
harpgirl 18 Dec 01 - 08:05 PM
little john cameron 18 Dec 01 - 09:30 PM
kendall 18 Dec 01 - 09:47 PM
kendall 19 Dec 01 - 09:01 AM
Big Mick 19 Dec 01 - 09:34 AM
kendall 19 Dec 01 - 11:26 AM
Lonesome EJ 19 Dec 01 - 12:04 PM
CarolC 19 Dec 01 - 04:02 PM
DougR 19 Dec 01 - 04:07 PM
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Subject: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:27 AM

On Saturday i was sitting here at the pc and every few minutes there was the sound of sirens,ambulances,cops,fire trucks etc.Later on i went up to the pub for a pint and find out what was going on.
The story goes,two of the lads were in the woods moose hunting,brothers,one thought the other was behind him but it turns out he was off to the side.Anyway,it seems there was some kind of commotion in the trees and the older brother turned and fired.Yes,you've got it!It was the younger one.Died right away.
This is a small town and most everyone knows each other or are related in one way or another.
It's bad enough but at Christmas makes it worse.
So PLEASE,all you hunters out there,is it worth it?With the cost of the rifle,licence,ammo,gas,truck,snowmobile etc.You could buy a lot of steaks with the money and it is a lot safer.

R.I.P. Jackie Manning.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:38 AM

First off, I second the Rest In Peace thought, Little John.

OK, suppose I buy your line of logic. Then it follows that we should give up any sport that someone could be killed in? How about giving up going to concerts because you could be killed driving to them. In fact I would bet that there is more danger doing that than hunting. Once you add up the gas, insurance costs, maintenance, tickets, etc. it would be much cheaper to just buy the CD, eh?

I think your post was written when your emotions were at a certain place. Hunting is a very old endeavor. Our essential nature is to hunt. Some don't express that part of their nature, some do. It all depends on your life experiences to date. I am a hunter. It is a part of who I am. I hate accidents that take friends unexpectedly, no matter what they were doing.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:44 AM

What Mick said. I'm a recovering hunter, but, I understand the drive to do it. I killed my last deer 20 years ago, and, just before it expired, it looked up at me as if to ask, "Why"? I sold my guns and have not hunted since. I'm damn glad it was not a person that I shot.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM

Point well taken Mick.Personally i can't see the pleasure in hunting,tho' i will eat the meat.When the hunting season is open here it is like a war zone.I prefer fishing for a meal. ljc


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Adrienne
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:53 AM

I read this in the paper two years ago, and will never get it out of my mind. A father was hunting with his teenage son. The son took a shot at what he thought was a deer, but when he approached his prey, he found his father, in a pool of blood, shot in the head. The son was so distraught at what he had done, he shot himself in the head and died beside his father. But unbeknownst to the son, the father wasn't dead--he had been knocked unconscious, but it was a superficial head wound. The father regained consciousness to find his boy had committed suicide.

I agree with you, Little John. It isn't worth it!


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:55 AM

Not that's cruel, unless you use a CIL Wobbler.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:57 AM

Ooops... Now that's cruel, unless you use a CIL Wobbler.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:05 AM

CIL Wobbler... now, that minds me of a good one. Stop reading this if you've heard it.

Fella always cathes fish while others don't. Warden hears about it and meets fella one early morn. Asks if he can join fella in boat. Fella doesn't speak but motions warden to get in. Warden remarks weather is good. Fella nods and keeps rowing. Warden asks if fella is from around area. Fella shakes head and keeps rowing. Warden keeps trying to make conversation but fella never says a word. Finally, fella stops rowing, rolls a smoke, lights it, takes a small stick of explosive from packsack, lights it with smoke, throws it in warden's lap and asks, "You gonna fish or you gonna talk all fuckin day ?"


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Bambi
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:08 AM

I'm glad when murdering hunters kill each other. When that happens, it's one less murderer out to kill me, my family and my friends. My own mother was murdered by a hunter.

Big Mick likes to call hunting a sport. It is no such thing when we cannot defend ourselves against the men with guns. If we had guns and could shoot back, it might be a sport. But it is not, it is just murder.

And to all gentle people, I wish a long life and happiness.

Bambi

Bambi


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:10 AM

ljc... where aboust are you ?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:13 AM

Bambi... that was quite some time ago that your mother was murdered. You must be quite a size by now. Why don't you drop by and we'll do lunch ?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:17 AM

Newfoundland,gnu.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:20 AM

This is why people are supposed to wear blaze orange something or other on their persons so they don't get confused with prey. I don't know if that's a requirement in any state, but it sure as hell is a good idea.

Bambi, you don't fool me. I saw that video where the hunter covered himself with deer piss, and you damn near bludgeoned him to death with those sharp little hooves of yours. You may look sweet and gentle but you're still a wild animal and will fight when threatened. So don't pull that on me.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:22 AM

I spent the better part of twenty years working mostly in NF... Goose Bay, Wabush, Nain, Makkovik, Lewisporte, St. John's, Argentia, Gander, Deer Lake, Stephenville, Port-aux-Basques, etc. Construction of airport and ferry terminals.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:24 AM

Don't make him nervous, Kim. He's coming for lunch. You bringing the onions ?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:29 AM

The Bambi post illustrates perfectly how silly these people are. Bambi would have absolutely no idea how its mother died. Only that it died. So, Bambi, what are we to do about all these terrible wolves that so cruelly kill your kin? How about those terrible cougars? And how are we to stop the snow so that you won't starve? And how about the loss of the habitat because of too many houses?

The simple fact of the matter is that the human ANIMAL is a predator. The difference between it and other predators is that it has a brain sufficiently developed that it has found ways to have its meat without hunting it. Makes it so much cleaner. I will bet money that "Bambi" wears items that are derived from animals. Items that some creature had to give up its freedom or life to produce. That is the way of it. Some of us just don't like the hypocrisy of those that chastise us while daily they do things that have the same result. Once in a while I run into a truly principled person who pursues a vegan lifestyle and does everything they can to not use products that come from other sentient beings. While I disagree with their take, these people get my utmost respect for their principled stand. The rest I ignore as hypocrits.

And by the way, I detest slob hunters who have no depth of understanding of the act they commit. When we hunt, we take the life of a creature. While it is a completely natural thing to do, our intellect, ability to reason, and conscience should dictate certain standards of behaviour. When we teach our young to hunt, it should be much more than how to aim and shoot. You can do that at targets. Hunting, for me, is a very ancient dance. It is about acknowledging the greatness of the land and the Earth Mother. It is about acknowledging the order created by the Greatest One. It is about being grateful for the bounty given us. It is about not losing my essence in a world and time that seeks at every turn to make us feel that we are something more than what God created us to be. In returning to my essential nature I acknowledge that I am a small, essential part of the great plan. In my time in the wilds, I look around and realize how sacred and necessary it is to be a steward of all that I affect.

Jayzus..........enough, already.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:33 AM

gnu,when was that.It must hae been a while ago as the airports.ve been here since ah came.1969. ljc


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:34 AM

Yeah, Mick... go pick us some shrooms to have with lunch, eh ? I got the old iron frying pan a sizzlin. Just waitin on our honoured guest to arrive.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:37 AM

Right, gnu. A load of dried morels is on the way. Got Guinness?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM

Jings Mick,ah never realised it wis sic spiritual experience.ljc


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:44 AM

Oh shite, another outbreak of "cuddly bunny syndrome"!
If the sentimental, anthropomorphising twerp that wrote the Bambi post above is a vegan who never wears wool or leather, never uses any product with gelatin and eschews anything with animal origins, then I can just about stomach the mawkish tone.
If not, then s/he is a hypocritical f***wit.
But wee j.c.'s right to draw our attention to gun safety. when I'm shooting I like to know that other Guns around me are safe, and tragedies like the one in his home town are just that - bloody tragic.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:45 AM

We got Guinness. And, we got some black rum. I cooked a partridge stew just last night and set in the garage. Almost frozen this morning, so it'll be just right to serve up with Bambi, uh, er, as honoured guest, of course.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:48 AM

Gervase... I agree. Gun safety is paramount to gnu safety. Now, where did I put the whetstone ?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:58 AM

Mick, the arguments along the lines "God created us to become hunters" can cause problems with Christianity and I would suspect in other religions. In Genesis 1:29-30 it says:

"I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be food for you. And to the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food. And it was so"

And later, Genesis 9:1-3 says:

"Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all of the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything."

The implication is that we were originally intended to be vegatarian and that something changed (some will argue sin in the Garden Of Eden) to make us meat eaters and hunters.

As for me, I have no problem with people killing for food whether for themselves or as a means of earning a living and I am a meat eater. I draw the line where killing becomes fun or pleasure - I just can't reconcile that one with my own mind and on my own spirtual level I can't believe God would ever approve of such activity.

As for the poor victim of this tragedy, I hope he rests in peace and that perhaps some people who choose to hunt are reminded of the dangers involved and ensure that thier "safety procedures" are adequate.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:06 PM

I am with Jon here---- I don't believe in hunting just so you can put a head on the wall. There are still people in the world, and some of them here in the still-wild parts of the US, who must hunt to survive.

And double, triple ditto to all the comments on gun safety.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:11 PM

Jon said... I draw the line where killing becomes fun or pleasure - I just can't reconcile that one with my own mind and on my own spirtual level I can't believe God would ever approve of such activity.

No true hunter can, either. The actual kill is the hard part. I too, have had experiences (mistakes) similar to Kendall and there was lots of tears and remorse. However, I try my best to be efficient, as all true hunters do.

BTW, Bambi, those TV shows on TNN are crap. Don't judge hunters based on those programs. And don't judge me until you've been hunting with me. I respect my game the way Mick does. I don't even keep racks... I always return them, and anything else not used, to where I got them.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:13 PM

I can't understand the fun in killing animals, although I am a licensed slaughterman and have worked in 3 slaughter-houses, I can honestly say I do not enjoy this work.I do eat meat, but believe anilmals should be killed only to provide food for people, or to end their suffering, not for fun, although a seperate issue, I also believe the testing of cosmetics & after shave etc on anomals is wrong.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:16 PM

Hate to bring up cars again, but...
People die because of car accidents with much more regularity than gun accidents. People don't seem to complain about drivers, though. They complain about hunters, because...my guess is the complainers have cars. A gun is meant to kill, a car isn't. To what or who is being killed, the intentions of the killer don't matter. It simply comes down to an issue of "you shouldn't be allowed to do that, because I find it morally offensive."

I was in the Air Force and worked in Public Health. One day, we received a call from someone in base housing, complaining that their neighbor had a dressed deer hanging from a tree. This was not a public health issue, ands the guy with the deer was violating no other regulations. Just another case of someone wanting rules for other people based on their own PERSONAL standards.

I admire those who stick to their own standards and moral codes. I just feel that those who think others should be made to bend to those standards are controlling busybodies.

Accidents happen in all activities, and the best prevention is knowing what the dangers are and always respecting them. I'd personally trust a hunter with a gun a lot more than the impatient jerk on the road behind me.

Jeri

(When I was about 15, I decided to become a vegetarian...the week before Thanksgiving. Guess how long that lasted.)


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:19 PM

My Hubby was shot six times by a 14-year-old kid with an automatic who thought he was a deer. That was a year before I met him, but have seen both sides of the story for over 30 years now. I don't understand hunting, but I live in an area where it is common. And yes, Hubby would still hunt if he had the time.

Jon, that quote from Genesis was used by my boss and chemistry professor in teaching photosynthesis. He would take the simple photosynthesis equation and use it all semester to illustrate chemical principles. (I think he carried it through to the meat eaters also, just the energy was originally obtained from photosynthesis.)


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:27 PM

Thanks for the various opinions guys,we all seem to be agreed it is a tradgedy.The problem now is with Sean,Jackies' brother.How does he come to terms with the fact that he shot his brother?These are not youngsters,they are in their 40's. ljc


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:31 PM

Truly tragic. He'll never get over it. I just hope he continues to hunt because I'm sure his brother understands.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:39 PM

I am sorry about your friends, ljc. I have to say it is nothing new, though. When I was growing up in Colorado, nearly every year saw someone killed, mistaken for a deer, elk, moose, bear, whathaveyou. One man's mule was shot, while completely bedecked in orange blanket and face cover.

Now, in Wyoming, the same thing happens. A couple of years ago, it was a dad killed his son, out doing the "manly" thing. Personally, I think the "it's our nature" thing is a bunch of crap and I have a very hard time reconciling the fact that people whom I know to be compassionate can go out and kill animals for sport or food. Yes, I am a vegetarian and no I do not wear any leather, etc.

I've always loved this poem, written by an ex-hunter:

A hunter shot at a flock of geese
That flew within his reach.
Two were stopped in their rapid flight
And fell on the sandy beach.

The male bird lay at the water's edge
And just before he died,
He faintly called to his wounded mate
And she dragged herself to his side.

She bent her head and crooned to him
In a way distressed and wild,
Caressing her one and only mate
As a mother would a child.

Then covering him with her broken wing
And gasping with failing breath
She laid her head against his breast
A feeble honk -- then death.

This story is true though crudely told.
I was the man in this case.
I stood knee-deep in snow and cold
And the hot tears burned my face

I buried the birds in the sand where they lay
Wrapped in my hunting coat,
And I threw my gun and belt in the bay
When I crossed in the open boat

Hunters will call me a right poor sport
And scoff at the thing I did.
But that day something broke in my heart
And shoot again? God forbid!

Again, ljc, I really am sorry about your friends.

kat


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:47 PM

Little John, after my Hubby recovered, he went to talk to the kid who shot him. His best words seemed to be to tell him it was accident, could have been a car wreck. The kid seemed to recover OK. What many people don't realize is that even if someone survives an accident of any kind, they live with a lifetime of pain. So often when we hear of accidents, only the death count is given. I always think of the larger number of injured who will have pain for a lifetime.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:59 PM

When I was about twenty, I used to wear a button with a wolf's head on it. The logo said "I need my coat, YOU don't". I used to love it when someone would confront me with the old "you're wearing leather shoes....blah, blah,.." thing. Boy, could I Zap 'em with quick comebacks. Same with those folks who 'spray-painted' upper-class women walking down the street in fur coats. Oh did I have a chuckle at that!

And then I joined an organization that shared and promoted my "beliefs".....and a strange thing happened. I found them as narrow minded and equally as quick at disingenuous rationalization as the pro-hunting lobbiests that I'd come to detest.

When I took that "journey to the interior" I realized that jerks come in all sorts of guises, some parroting NRA dogma, others spouting Marx, and still others citing Biblical passages....to support what is essentially an EMOTIONAL position.

I'd still be incapable of shooting a moose (although I discovered I loved and was pretty good at target shooting) but I'd eat a moose steak. Quite the hypocrite eh? But that's emotions for ya.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:03 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. More people related to one another are killed by guns than burglars, muggers, and robbers. If there are guns in your house someone related to you is more likely to be hurt or killed by those weapons than anyone intruding in your home. This is another example. We need to change our gun laws. harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:23 PM

I don't hunt, but I don't have a problem with responsible people who do hunt. What gets me is these idiots who figure they should start blasting away because they saw "some kind of commotion in the trees". It is inexcusable to shoot at something if you can't see it well enough to know what it is. If you can't be a little more discerning than that, you've got no business wandering around in the woods with a gun.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:25 PM

No. You need to make sure there are no guns in YOUR house. I'll take care of my house.

BTW, we've had at least three home invasions in the Maritimes in the past couple of weeks. Home invasions are increasing... allowed by the new guns laws... caused by people like harpgirl. More people are injured and die in home invasions than are killed by idiots or criminals with guns. I don't want to harp on this, pun intended, but, harpgirl, guns don't kill people.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:33 PM

My apologies to ljc, who started this thread by telling us of a tragedy. I am withdrawing from the gun legislation discussion and I am sorry for the Bambi jokes. I hope your town heals.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Sigma Alpha Rho
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:34 PM

Gnu,

You say you are in the Maritimes. I assume you're talking about Eastern Canada. I don't know about the statistics there, but as far as the U.S. is concerned, Harpgirl is correct. Statistically, a gun owner in the United States is about four times more likely to accidentally kill him or herself, or a member of his or her own family, than a home intruder.

SAR


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:37 PM

Since Kat chose to characterize my view as "crap" I shall return the favor. How does all this square with your vaunted Native American beliefs? As you once posted:

03-Dec-99 - 08:47 AM

Cute, Spaw and so true!

Penny, some of the sacred objects which might be appropriate would be a feather fan, usually just 3-4 feathers with a sort of case around the base, like leather, with beadwork or some beads hanging down from it; rattles made of skin or clay (I have a wonderful one shaped like an egg with runes all over it); a staff with feathers and beads; medicine pouch (small) with personal items inside, i.e. stones, corn pollen, fetishes; how about a drum, small handheld. I've a wonderful one of those, too. Or a NA flute? At the powwos we go to, the dances usually involved shawls with long, long fringes, which are used, by the women, to accent their dancing, sometimes spread like eagles' wings along their outstretched arms.

Now.........let's see.......my hunting is terrible, but the use of animal body parts in Native American rites is OK?? My view of nature and my experience in it is "crap", but the Native American view of it (which is where I learned a great deal of my philosophy) is purer? This is exactly what I refer to as "situational ethics". The fact of the matter is that human beings are part of the whole food chain, and hunting is a completely natural thing to do. To deny that is to deny nature, a central tenet of aboriginal beliefs. It is just fine with me that some choose not to hunt, because they cannot do it for whatever reason. That is a conscious decision based on personal experience.

With regard to harpgirl's statement, I would challenge the premise it is based on. I don't believe the statement to be true. Further, if you adjust the statement by the number of guns illegally owned, it waters down the arguement even further. It just doesn't stand the scrutiny of the facts.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:47 PM

Ok... one more and I have to go... SAR said... Statistically, a gun owner in the United States is about four times more likely to accidentally kill him or herself, or a member of his or her own family, than a home intruder.

I assume you meant... than a home intruder killing the occupants. Otherwise, you would be talking about an occupant killing the intruder.

Which is it ?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:58 PM

Can't wait... if you meant occupant killing intruder, what the hell has that got to do with the increase in home invasions in the Maritimes ? If you meant intruder killing occupant, you have bolstered my hypotehsis that the new guns laws have caused an increase in home invasions in the Maritimes.

Got to go. And I won't be back. If you need more, PM me.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:08 PM

It's that time of year again, isn't it? There was an item in our local news last week about a guy who went out hunting with his son and wound up killing him. Nice ending to a little family outing, innit? There are so many instances of this sort of thing happening, and I don't even want to get started on the number of children that are killed by guns every year because people have this apparent compulsion to keep guns in their homes; another topic for another thread, I guess.

As for the hunters, I have to second Little John's opinion---buy the meat at the market and that way everyone can be alive to eat it!


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM

The arguement that guns don"t kill people is a specious one..of course they kill people...that is what many of them are designed to do. As for the ones designed to kill animals..they are also used to kill people. The killing of animals for "sport" or Fun bears no relationship to owning a car..that also is an illogical arguement. When are we going to learn that Guns are deadly..designed to kill and ought to be banned..then there is no controversy about legal and illegal guns..they would all be illegal.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:19 PM

Good idea. Ban guns because they were made for killing. Buy hey, what about knives and axes then?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:21 PM

Well this one really took off.......I saw LJ's post before I went shopping and now........wow.

Oddly enough, I tend to agree with everyone on the thread except that dumbass Bambi thing. Like Kendall, I'm a recovering hunter. I don't hunt anymore although I used to enjoy it a lot. When Mick describes it, I can relate....and I can relate to the hunter who wrote the poem in kat's post.

My friend Wayne hunts to put meat in the freezer. This year has been good and we too always share in Wayne's success and I have a freezer with a lot of venison in it. Neither of us is loaded with dough and frankly the deer stretches the food budget for both families. We butcher it ourselves and use damn near everything. Wayne also tans the pelts in the old way and has learned some taxidermy skills. He doesn't hunt for trophies, but on the occasion that he gets a nice one, he mounts the head too. He got a 13 point a few years ago that was a monster......wouldn't fit in the bed of the pickup!

All this to say that those who do and who do with responsibility are not the problem. Wayne bowhunts and spends many days out and for him there is no greater relaxation and pleasure. Where I have a problem is that short time that gun season occurs and especially the first day. There are more yahoos per acre than I can believe and around here it sounds like a friggin' war zone. One numbnuts cahsed a deer out of the woods and shot it next to a high fence bordering (and about 200 feet from) the elementary school! We have several shot on the first day and this year, a guy shot his wife before he left the house. The dumbass blasted a deer slug accidentally through his wall, grazing his wife in the head. She was in the kitchen, he in a bedroom. He also killed his microwave.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:30 PM

Flatlander yahoos here are the problem, not the farmers who cull (and give away a portion of) the surplus deer out of their otherwise decimated corn fields. And, without deer hunting here done the way it is, about 30% of our people could not afford to stay here where community values are high but wages are low. It's part of an intricate economy outsiders cannot understand.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:31 PM

Well, there you have it---people who don't know what they're doing are clearly less responsible than those with experience who take this sort of thing seriously. While in theory I do think that as a culture we've completely lost touch with where pretty much everything comes from (not just our food but clothing, shelter, necesities of all kinds are assumed to spring fully formed into the universe, complete with shrink wrap!), and I can respect a person who hunts to put food on the table and wastes as little as possible, It just seems that the price paid in lost (even, as you point out, numb nuts') lives is woefully high each hunting season.

Maybe they should have to take an IQ test before they can get a license?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:40 PM

Hope this doesn't turn into another bobert rant but I have a couple things to throw into the mix.

First of all, and for those reading my Department of Peace thread who may find this hard to believe, but I am a former N.R.A. member. When I joined the N.R.A. the emphasis was on gun safety and I learned at a very early age how to use a gun safely. Unfortunately, money and agendas ruined the N.R.A. and now most moderate people do not trust their kids to the organization for fear that the gun safety instructor is going to use the opportunity to fill the kids head with a lot of right wing politics. This leaves a real void when it comes to the teaching of gun safety. But in a more perfect world, passing a gun safty course as a reqirement to own a gun would go a long way toward cutting down on accidental shootings.

Speaking of accidental shootings, where I work in Loudoun County, Va., the 3rd fastest growing county in the nation, there have been incidents of bullets coming through the walls, doors and windows of recently built homes. There has been a debate about just what constitutes "trespassing" by a stray bullet. The Loudoun County Board of Supervisors appointed a panel largely comprised of N.R.A. members and it was their opinion that the bullet was not "trespassing" until it hit something on the property it was being fired over. That something, of course, might be a person or pet, but until the bullet actually hits something then... no problem.

I know I'm using more than my alloted time and space here but since I haven't gone into a full rant I'd just like to point out one other observation. In this area we have a major problem with the size of the deer herd. Now, I'm not into killing animals, though I've done it in the past for both food and sport (long time ago on the sport...), but in this area, ol bobert wouldn't mind seeing the deer season extended and the number of deer an individual can take increased. I would also like to see a ban on high power rifle hunting in the more densely populated eastern end of the county. A shotgun works perfectly well and in sojme counties of Virginia it used to be, and may still be today, that you couln't use anything but a shotgun after bow season ended.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM

Des......Wayne's son David took several hunter type courses and went out with Wayne on Wednesdays during bow season. He's at the age where he truly worships his Dad and they had a very good time.

But when gun season came in, Wayne didn't take him along until Wednesday of the second week, which was a bit quiter classically. They hunt in an area only used by them with special permission of the landowner but during gun season the woods here are overrun with the nuts who could care less where they are. Wayne was also attacked by a deer this year because gun season came in a bit differently time wise and this one was serious about getting him. He tried to back away, but on the second charge he was pinned so fired a "defensive shot" into the shoulder which turned the buck enough that he got a clean second shot and dropped it.

I dunno'......Like I said, I tend to agree with everyone. I'd have less of a problem if every hunter was like Wayne and not like the microwave killer.

LJ, the young man has a rough way to go.....I don't know that he'll ever get over it.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM

Why is it the subject always shifts to the same old free-for-all, chance-to-beat-it-AND-each-other-into-the-ground-fight? Gun laws and ownership IN THE US.

There are 8 days until Christmas.
Jackie Manning is dead, and his brother has to live with having killed him.

From National Vital Statistics Reports (in Adobe Acrobat) In 2000, in the US, the death rate (# per 100,000 of polulation) caused by firearms accidents was .3.

Here are some other causes of death, and the death rates for some other causes of death which were higher:


Drowning:                        1.2
Motor vehicle accidents:       15.2
Major cardiovascular diseases: 339.3
Pneumonia:                      23.6
Flu:                              .8
Tuberculosis:                     .5
Diabetes:                      24.9
Malnutrition:                   1.4
Peptic ulcer:                   1.6
Complications of
medical and surgical care:       1.0


Most of the above are also in our power to prevent. Seems like there are a lot of high horses available. Guns seem to be a very popular subject with the media, though, and that may be why so many of us seem to care more about them than all this other stuff.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:06 PM

Me again,now without meaning to belabour the point here is a bit more on the story.These two were experienced hunters who grew up with guns,tho' it what way they grew up with them i don't know.Did they have bright ORANGE clothing? I don't know that either.Somehow i don't think they did,but i could be wrong.
Another thing is people out in boats without PFDs .We lose a few that way every year.The logic,they say,is that the Atlantic is so cold you will freze to death anyway.Most fishermen can't swim.
However,i digress,here is the latest horror in this story.As it was dark before they found the body,Sean couldn't remember where they were,the cops couldn't do their investigation so,get this,Jackies wife and sister had to stay with the body overnight.
Needless to say,the pub Christmas party was a bit of a bummer.
Life goes on,ljc


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:23 PM

I dont want to get between the hunters and non hunters,(I bruise easily) but, I do want to point out a couple of things.
1. The matter of game being "defenseless"...not so. Nature endowed them with abilities that man has never had. Swiftness of foot, the ability to fly, and, in the case of deer, they can smell a man 2 miles away. Some men even further I should think.
2. Pass an IQ test to hunt? why not an IQ test to breed? One day while deer hunting I heard a shot and a young man came out of the woods. I asked if he got one, and he said, "I hit it, but, cant find it." He was about to leave, so, I said, "Show me where you were." I picked up a faint blood trail, and within 100 yards lay the dead deer. This Nimrod couldn't track an elephant through a snow drift. Harpgirl, although I share your belief about the statistics on gun accidents, the fact is that since Florida passed a "right to carry law", holdups, muggings and home invasions have dropped dramatically. Now everyone is equally armed and the bad guys dont know who is vulnerable and who is dangerous. I'm not saying this is good, I hate the idea that some bastard is causing me to be worried in certain neighborhoods.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM

Unbelievable LJ.......What they are going through, I have no idea. Too hard to imagine........

Bobert, the infringement on territories has had a huge impact on deer herds and they are more than a nuisance around here too. Yeah, it is our fault it happened, but what do we do now. We increased the season here and issued doe permits as well. A few years ago, a herd was so physically drained and sick, they were in miserable shape and dying daily. This herd was close to a metro park and a lot of people went nuts when the idea of killing them came up.......so the state and county spent $725,000 moving them! It was insane and a lot of them didn't survive anyway.

The state is now doing a "Young Hunter" preserve thing where they have a lottery and draw thirty names of kids between 12 and 16. They take several safety courses and then are guide led in small groups over several days prior to gun season in designated areas where the herds have become too large. Each can take two, a buck and a doe. It can be a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but all of the animals must be used for food....and they are checking on that. Connie's brother has a son who got two this year and a week later, a DNR guy came by their house to check. They fine you if it hasn't been processed.

Jeri....Thanks for the chart.....and LJ, again, my sympathies to all involved.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:40 PM

I am not getting involved the debate, but in Wyoming, anyone born after Jan. 1, 1966 is required to take a minimum 12 hr. Hunter Safety course. Also, "non residents" hunting in a declared Wilderness Area. For more info in Wyoming Hunter Safety law, see here.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:42 PM

I have lived the last 12 years with at least one loaded gun in the house, and ain't nobody ever been hurt. I don't have any kids, in case anyone is wondering, and I doubt my dogs will go snooping in the closet.

As to the tragedy of brother shooting brother... what really can you say? It is a terrible, awful thing, a very hard burden to bear.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:43 PM

My rattle is made of clay. My drum synthetic skinhead. The feathers I have came from moltings of live birds. I do respect the spiritual rights of my Native American friends to hunt and use all of the parts, but I still DON'T like it and they know it.

ljc, I am sorry to have been sucked into the never-ending gun debate. I hate hunting and I agree with harpgirl (most homeowner's would do better defending themselves with a well-aimed can of spray paint), but that does not diminish the fact of your friend's tragedy and for that I am truly sorry. May you and their other friends and family help them through this terrible loss. Anymore from me will be by PM only.

kat


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:58 PM

Thanks Kat and everybody.That's it from me too. Having a bad week. ooxx john.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Bert
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:02 PM

Thanks for some real figures Jeri. I'm suspicious when people quote figures without giving a source.

Those 1.4 per 100,000 who died of malnutrition could maybe have used a few bambi-burgers, and probably wouldn't have cared too much whether they were farm raised or hunted.

kat, you're right about geese though. I gave up keeping geese because I didn't like killing them, they are so smart and they seemed to know what was coming.
One cannot live in modern society without exploiting animals, (if you don't wear leather then you are probably buying groceries from someone who does); I respect you for trying to live up to your beliefs though.

I was raised that, as a meat eater, I should be able to take responsiblity for killing the animals that I ate and was taught to butcher chickens at an early age. There was a war on and Dad used to raise chickens and rabbits to supplement the rations.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Fortunato
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:05 PM

IMHOP: Here in Maryland and Virginia, USA, when we license people to drive we attempt to educate them through driver training.

Would anyone here object to Shooting Safety Training being mandatory for first time hunting licenses? Retraining every 4(?) years?

I would also recommend "Don't Drink and Hunt" campaigns.

I don't own any guns and I eat fish only. But this is not moral superiority or ennobling, only my preference. A Zen teacher of mine has said: "It is not what you eat, but eating mindfully that is important." In other words, do not kill or eat carelessly, but mindfully. Who among you does not eat?

Have a safe Holiday season. Regards, Fortunato.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: DougR
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:08 PM

No, Gnu, Bambi probably wouldn't have lived very long because the herds of deer would not be harvested annually, and soon there would be so many deer there would not be enough forage for the game to eat, and they would starve to death. That's more humane?

Hunters should be SURE of their target BEFORE they pull the trigger.

I use to be a hunter, but no more. I'm sure I would have the same reaction that my friend Kendall had were I to have shot a deer. I am glad that there are hunters, though, so that the size of herds can be managed.

Arghhhhhhh! That doesn't make me an environmentalist does it???? :>)

DougR

DougR


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:11 PM

katlaughing... that spray can of paint is an excellent idea !! I'm going to write a "letter to the editor" on that in case there are others as dense as I for not thinking about it earlier. Not only would it be a good defense, but it would also mark the intruder. Chain lube comes to mind as well, because it's got a greater trajectory (sp ?). Still might be a problem with kids, though... but certainly less lethal.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: DougR
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:26 PM

gnu: how do you make partridge stew, and what is the purpose of putting it in the garage to freeze? (Little thread creep here)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:34 PM

DougR... that should suit my snowbird, golf nut uncle who winters there from BC.

Desdemona... can you hang onto that crap until it peters out rather than letting it come north to the Maritimes ? Thanks.

Still sunny but cooling here. I knew the new moon would bring a change. It's all downhill now, but the snow makes money change hands, so I'll just put a few more spuds in the stew and watch it snow.

I make partridge stew the traditional Kent County Irish way. Potatoes, turnip, carrots, onions and a pinch of summer savory. One potatoe is sliced.... shite... will get back to you... have to shut down for line test...


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:36 PM

So, first-glance appearances notwithstanding, it actually looks like we're all ESSENTIALLY in agreement (this is always such a hot-button topic!), that Little John's community has suffered a horrible & unnecessary tragedy, that people who are licensed and trained to hunt with a gun or ANY weapon should be mature, well-trained and responsible, that in some areas an overpopulation of wildlife leads to unhappiness for people and animals, and that everyone has to eat.

LJ, my sympathies to you and your neighbours, who must be experiencing something unimaginably painful and horrific right now. Sending a good thought.

D.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Chip2447
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:54 PM

There have always been unlocked guns in my parents house, through four children, and uncountable friends, cousins, visitors. There has NEVER been an incident involving firearms in my parents household. We were taught firearm safety, and we knew better than to touch the weapons without adult supervision. That was the Law.
When we hunt we consume what we harvest. HARVEST. There are more deer in the state of Missouri now than there ever have been before. Without seasonal hunts we would soon be overrunn by "Bambi." How many of us would be demanding that something be done to keep destructive animals out of gardens, and front yards and off the highways, where if I'm not mistaken, The American Whitetail deer kills or injures more people in the USA due to collisions with vehicles yearly than does any other animal, excluding man. How many of us would be demanding that something bee done to help the poor starving animals because we were hit with a harsh winter? How many farmers would be demanding that something bee done to keep animals from destroying their livlihood Eating meat is an instinct, not doing so is a choice.
Nuff said... Happy Holidays Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 05:10 PM

Great... the phone company is sending out an installer to check the line AGAIN because the line test syays everything is okay, AGAIN. I'm going to park on the street and when the installer parks in my driveway, I'm gonna block him in and not let him leave until it's fixed.

AHEM... One potatoe is sliced very thin so that it thickens the stew... flour and corn starch were in short supply when my forefathers arrived in the new world. The partridge, preferably two or three Birch (ruffed gruse) and one Spruce, for added flavour (spruce partridge), are boiled first for an hour or so depending on time of year taken because the feed influences tenderness (as well as taste... birds taken while eating alder and poplar leaves will taste much differently than those eating maple seeds and bugs). Of course, one never eats stew the same day as it is cooked. It must "set" to reach it's ultimate flavour.

As far as putting it in the garage, it's all to do with what Mick was talking about. Putting the stew in the fridge is not traditional. Setting it in an outbuilding to keep it cool is paying homage to tradition. You, of course, don't want it to freeze freeze, but almost freezing brings out the taste of the carrots and turnip. Gee, I must go have a plate.

BTW, I see that local craft shows are selling partridge feathers for $5 for a small baggy. That's around a hundred bucks a bird. I could make a bloody fortune but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night because I don't need the money as much as I need to return what I do not use to Mother Nature.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 07:17 PM

One of the very first things I learned as a child was to keep my clam clutchers off things that did not belong to me.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 07:42 PM

And that IS a very important lesson, but as any parent can attest, it would be irresponsible for us to assume that children have internalised these lessons when not having done so can be a matter of life & death. It's an important part of our job to ENSURE our children's safety until they HAVE reached the age of reason. Not doing so increases the risk of them never having the chance to do so.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM

Hmmm, okay, let's see Kendall. When you and I went to the Thomas Point Bluegrass Festival last year I caught you stuffing your snub nose thirty eight into your jeans pocket. I protested but didn't insist you not take it.

Your brothers got you drunk on rum and coke and you stumbled over the tree roots in the dark. You never fell thank goodness! Then you wanted to drive home in the van. I suggested we sleep in the van. Now is this your idea of gun safety????? Just wondering....harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 09:13 PM

I always wait until I am fit to drive after drinking. My brothers didn't "get me drunk" that is such a silly saying. Yes, I carry. I have carried for many years, starting when I became a law man. No one has ever been the worse for it. Those are facts, but, I'm sure they wont stand up in the face of fear. The reptilian brain is stronger in some of us. BTW, I dont carry in places where it is not legal.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 09:21 PM

You have a strong PM from me DOCTOR.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 09:30 PM

Actually, it is an email. I'm more than a little put out with you.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:08 PM

Kendall,

I'm posting this anonymously because now I'm afraid of you. We've eaten together, drank together and made music together. I didn't know you carrying a gun. Now that I do, I will never be in your company again.

I've seen you drunk and I don't want to be around a fucking drunks with a gun.

FUCK YOU!


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: DougR
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:14 PM

DOCTOR? = DR =DougR?

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Kendall is put out at me! **SOB**!


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST,GUEST (a different one)
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:16 PM

A SNUB? Thats only a serious danger to someone whos got it in their back pocket!


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:22 PM

Kim C, putting something orange on something is a sure-fire way of getting Big Mick to shoot it....


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:46 PM

Yep, some folks always descend to this. I have also sang, eaten, and made music with Kendall. I would be happy to do so again, anytime, and any place. BUT........and this is a major BUT.........I will not sleep with you, you old coot..........LOL.

I am sorry that kat has chosen to leave the debate. All we have here is a discussion of this issue, and I think that with a couple of exceptions, it is actually going quite civilly. With the exception of unnamed assholes, that is. Kat chose to use the term crap, that is unfortunate. But I really wanted to ask her a question based on her response. She equates Native American hunting with spirituality. In fact she calls it a spiritual right. I think she has it wrong. Hunting by Native Americans, for the most part in days gone by, was a survival practice. But they viewed then, as many of them do now, the whole world as a living being. Hence great thanks was shown to the Creator for the bounty provided. And great reverence was shown to the living creature for the sacrifice made to provide sustenance. Many tales of the hunt were told around the lodge fires, bragging type stories that extolled the skill and bravery of the hunter AND the hunted. This is really not so different from the hunters that I hunt with. We enjoy the hunt, we talk of the skill required to be successful against wily prey, and we waste nothing of the kill. I don't have a single fish mount, or deer mount in my home. I have never felt the need. I do have hides that I have tanned. I have always wanted to get into buckskinning, so I save them. Unfortunately I don't have the time for another hobby so I will likely give the hides to my nephew who is into this sort of thing. But I start to digress.

With regard to the above paragraph, my point is that the aims of the hunters that I hunt with and the Native American hunters is not different. There is a difference in the spirituality involved, but not the reverence. I have learned much of my hunting ethic from the practices of several different tribes of Native Americans. Hunting, in and of itself, is not wrong. But hunting for no purpose but to kill, and with no respect for the creature whose life you take is simply slaughter. The near destruction of the buffalo, and the extinction of the passenger pigeon, are examples of what happens when values and ethics disappear from hunting. And finally, Native American hunting is not purer, or more OK, than any other. You either buy that hunting can be OK or you don't.

With regard to education, I strongly support more, not less. I believe that if a state is going to pass laws that allow weapons to be carried in public places, then training equivalent to what a law enforcement officer must go through to carry should be mandatory.

And as truly sorry as I am for ljc's friends, I still must make this observation. Anyone who fires at a noise in the field or in the home or in public without having exactly identified what it is that s/he is going to discharge a lethal projectile at is guilty of manslaughter. I would never, ever, fire any of my weapons without having positively id'ed the target. Never, never, ever fire at a sound.

I am very sorry for the loss that this family is going through.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:53 PM

...sorry Kim, I also meant to add that even if Mick wasnt the one to shoot it, he'd at least happily buy the ammunition for the person who did...


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:09 PM

GUEST, I don't respond to this type of stuff often, but in this case I will. Your pitiful attempts to lure me into a flame war demonstrate that you are incapable of intelligent debate. Further, probably due to a very deep resentment towards one or both of your parents, you manifest this by leaving intellectual discussion and doing despicable things like accusing folks like me of manslaughter. This is probably because you lack any cogent arguments to respond with, and folks like me intimidate you. That is OK. There is help for people like you. Drop me a PM with your hometown and I will use my contacts with various agencies to get you some counseling. In time you will come to realize that most folks only pity you, but aren't bothered by you. You will see that the self esteem you lack can be obtained, and that the attention you crave can be so much better than the type you get with this stuff.

As to the rest of you, let us continue our discussion, but don't feed this poor soul. It only encourages him/her.

Sincerely,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Chip2447
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:38 PM

I'm going to toss in another two cents worth. In 1926 the state of Missouri banned deer hunting because the animal was nearly gone from the area, wildlife estimates at the time stated less than 400 deer remained in the state.
Click here

In fact, many cities in the state allow archery hunting inside the city limits to control the urban herd.
With few remaining natural predators remaining, wildlife officials now estimate the population of wild deer in missouri to be nearly one million animals.
If you chose not to hunt that would be your prerogative. If you chose not to eat meat, then that is your choice also. I'll respect your choices. Try to respect mine.
I sympathize with those who have had friends and family injured or killed in hunting accidents, but many of them can be avoided; hunt in areas where you know who is likely to be in the area, wear Hunter saftey orange, NEVER FIRE AT NOISE, ALWAYS VISIBLY IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET, know what lies in your line of fire. Drinking and getting drunk have no business in a hunting party, save it for camp or the lodge.
Okay, I'm stepping down off of my soapbox for the time being.
Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: marty D
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 12:50 AM

So sorry to hear about the incident Little John. I guess because we're not personally involved we start thinking about the larger issues at hand, and of course the adrenalin starts flowing with the opinions. Don't drag yourselves through the mud Mick and Kendall by responding to flamers. You are two of the many here who've made the forum worth reading for me. (you COULD give an opinion in my 'folklorist' thread instead...just kidding)

marty


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:39 AM

Guest, I know who you are, and you are in no danger from me. Look, a gun is a tool. Nothing more. It is not a problem until some idiot mis uses it. Chainsaws are also dangerous in the wrong hands, wanna ban them too? Furthermore, you are a liar. One who will do or say anything to have the last word, even to violate a confidence. I'm glad I'm not one of your patients, you have a very big mouth. So, go ahead and add my name to the list of Mudcatters whom you have been bad mouthing. I'll be in good company. I have carried a piece for most of the past 42 years, and I guarantee that no one is MORE qualified to do so. The State of Maine Warden service, and the U.S. Treasury dept. will tell you so.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:41 AM

harpgirl... tsk tsk. What an awful post. Completely unacceptable in a public forum. You should be woefully ashamed of your poor judgement. I wouldn't want to share a jar with you.

BTW, "stumbling over tree roots in the dark" ? Don't sound drunk to me... if it even happened the way you're letting on.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:02 AM

That area is in a grove of trees whose roots are all above ground. It was dark, and I was NOT drunk. Thou shalt not bear false witness...


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:09 AM

What is so funny about all this, Ken, is that with the appropriate software and knowledge of how to use it, the IP addresses of the ANON GUESTS are easy to get. The posters think that they are anonymous, but the fact is that they are not. Let us not continue to feed this poor, pitiable creature. I am amazed that this person, of all, would feel the need to do this shite. But it just goes to show that the early impressions are the most accurate. You can't hide what you really are very long. Eventually it comes out. Let's move on and leave this one ranting in the dark.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:24 AM

Based on what some are willing to do around here with words alone, I'm glad they don't believe in more lethal weapons. Those prone to violent reactions prompted by unpredictable rage should NOT carry weapons.

Having had personal experience with spraying paint directly into my eyes, (Don't ask - it would make some of Cletus & Paw's escapades look intelligent.) I doubt it would help much with a home intruder. It might work (as would any distracting but non-disabling type of counterattack) if you were in a situation to run away after spraying. For one thing, the person can't see, so they're not going to be able to get out of your house. For another, you have to get close enough to them to spray - bad if they can grab you. For a third, the paint doesn't completely blind a person - they can see where you are in between blinks.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Fortunato
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:28 AM

My questions above were ignored. Evidently Shooting Safety Classes are not an exciting topic. Neither is a public health campaign against drunken hunting.

As long as we remain militant and factionalized and wholier than thou on both sides of gun safety, innocents may continue to die.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 12:23 PM

Chance,
Gun safety classes do work. My father saw to it that all four of my brothers took them and passed them before allowing them to hunt. I had no desire to try it so I did not.
Drinking and hunting is a problem. Unfortunately, there is always one (or more) who see Opening Day as an excuse to get away from the wife and kids. Even better if it happens over Thanksgiving weekend. They come equipped with enough hard liquor to stock a small bar.
Now to a more interesting subject. Am I to understand that Big Mick will only share a cot with old coots who do not carry guns?


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 12:25 PM

I repeat. It is a tool and I am totally qualified in its use. I hear that paranoia is treatable.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: X
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 12:33 PM

Poor taste Harpgirl, you never talk about someone carrying concealed. Kendall may, someday have to save your ass with that little .38.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 12:49 PM

Making hunter safety courses mandatory would certainly help, no two ways about it. As I posted above, my nephew David really enjoyed and learned from them...but such is the passion of youth. My fear is that so many other things, they would become diluted over time for "experienced" hunters who would feel it was unneeded in "their case." I'm really not sure what a solution there is, but I will say that the drinking hunter is a bigger problem. Sadly there are too few wildlife personnel to enforce any law that might be passed so we'd have yet another unenforceable law.

I guess we were talking about this several years ago too, here at the 'Cat. What bothered me then is still going on today and that's the beer company banners wishing the hunters good luck......yeah.......Stop and buy a six pack before you head out with a gun in your hands. It's the same thing as drinking and driving I know, but at least the bigger breweries have put a few bucks into the "Don't Drink and Drive" campaigns while at the same time offering their best to hunters without mention of safety. Well, what should I expect anyway............

Last year in NASCAR there was a car sponsored by Remington, with collateral sponsorship from Ice House Beer........racing in a series sponsored by Winston/RJ Reynolds. Yeah, let's do some unhealthy shit, drink a few, and drive fast on our way to the woods to shoot something. Geeziz..........

LJ, once again, I'm sorry and perhaps none of this applies to this poor family. It's odd though, that our first discussion of this very subject introduced Paw, Cletus, and Buford in a fictional scenario, now all too real.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Maxine
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 01:01 PM

We were in Florida in October. My son wanted a pair of aggressive roller skates (don't ask!) and so we decided to look in a shop called 'Outdoor World' stupidly thinking it may stock skates and perhaps golf accessories etc. Now, I know us Brits are not big on this outdoor life, but I have to say I was appalled. Deer and buffalo heads bedecked every wall. Guns, various traps, combat gear so brave men could hide themselves in the woods and elude attack by these vicious beasts adourned every shelf. I hurried my 2 kids out of that shop, and tried very hard to answer the 'whys?' and 'what fors?' they were asking. But the truth is, I had no answers for them. I have no idea what would want to make a grown man (or woman) shoot a deer etc to put it's head on a wall and hope everybody who see's this trophy imagines they must be some brave hero, not too scared to enter a forest, armed with a gun, and shoot something. Now, I have read all the previous posts, and know that this is not the case for all of you. A lot of you seem quite decent and aware that animals lives are also worth a great deal. I am aware, that as a meat eater, leather wearer etc, I may be hypocrital. But as a sport, surely hunting of any sort (don't get me started on fox hunting, badger baiting) is completely barbaric? Katlaughing, every time I read that poem it upsets me...perhaps I'm just emotional with all these christmas carols around!

Byeee


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Fortunato
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 01:10 PM

Hello, Mary. Thanks for your post. Merry, Happy, HO HO Ho!

Hey 'SPAW, Merry (expletive) Christmas and Happy (expletive) New year!

Your point about eroding safety procedures is well taken. If you've ever tried to tutor your kids in Algebra or those "how fast must a train run to reach Atlanta with 600 passengers" problems, you know we lose accuracy and content over time. Gun Safety Training as taught by a state agency ought to be mandatory to receive a hunting licence, IMHOP. Gun ownership is a right guaranteed by the Constitution, but hunting licences are at the pleasure of the state and can be regulated for the public safety. Parents do not have access to videos depicting accidents. As you know videos showing traffic fatalities do have an effect.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:17 PM

If you are offended by someone carrying a weapon then you have a bigger problem. And yes I think some hypocrisy does go on - what about when you go to your favorite MacDonalds? Somebody does some of all of our killing for us. Better wake up though - just because someone pulls the trigger does not make them the sole responsible party - who buys the bullets? We talked about this a while back in an assasin's thread of some type.

To legally possess and carry a firearm is a thing each of us must make a choice on. I would hope that the choice would not end up damning someone.

A public forum is not my choice of where to publicise the fact though.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: X
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 07:32 PM

kendall, I'll jam with you any day, and feel safer knowing your armed.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:03 PM

Thanks folks for all the support (including all those pm's) Anyone who thinks I'm a dangerous drunk would be a source of great amusement among my friends and relatives. Considering that this person hardly knows me, her concern may be valid, but, attacking me in a public forum is inexcusable.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: harpgirl
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:05 PM

I posted nothing on this thread anonymously, for the record. Let someone who has been raped at gunpoint by a law professor speak on this subject again. The rest of you should be quiet and listen and think!!!

Here are my questions for the individuals who carry firearms:P

Do you have alcohol and firearms in your home?

Do you imbibe alcohol and have firearms in your home?

Do you know anyone who has committed suicide with a firearm?

Are you on probation and do you own a firearm?

Are you on parole and do you own a firearm?

Have you crossed a state line with your firearm?

Are you on disability for a mental condition such as bi-polar disorder and do you own a firearm?

Have you concealed a firearm without proper permitting?

Have you ever knowingly broken a firearm law with the rationalization that you won't do anything stupid?

Kendall I am publically apologizing for my outburst. But I don't apologize for being afraid of guns. I have reason to be afraid of them. I have vowed to stay away from people who knowingly own and carry firearms. I don't let people in my office with firearms and believe me they bring them in!!!

If you own and carry firearms, do me a favor and don't come around me. I am terrified of them and the people who carry them....harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: little john cameron
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:30 PM

Weel,that certainly sparked a bit o' controversy.Good arguements on all sides.All well thought out and appreciated.I agree,life is dangerous regardless how you live it.Many accidents here on the island this weekend due to bad weather.Then the pub up the road,not my local,burned down and Minnie died.Ah'm a real bundle o' fun these days.Merry Christmas. ljc


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:47 PM

Apology accepted, and I glad to honor your request.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:01 AM

Guest calls me a drunk. You are full of shit, and if you had the guts to face me I would say it in person. I know you are not a friend of mine, if you were, you would know that you could tell me face to face that you dont want to be around me if I'm carrying. You would not have to hide behind "Guest" No one in their right mind is afraid of me. Your gutless paranoia will keep you out of McDonalds, but, I go where I please.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:34 AM

Kendall, no need to respond any further to this lowlife. In fact, they are feeding off it. Most folks reading this know who it is and think they are slugs. Forget it.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:26 AM

You are right Mick. Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it. I'm done


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:04 PM

Like it or not, Hunters perform a vital service. They cull populations of herd animals like deer and elk, that would otherwise overbrowse and overbreed in the absence of large predators, leading to disease, starvation, and environmental damage. Hunters also support, through hunting licenses and fees, preservation of wildlife habitat in national wilderness areas, at least in the US.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:02 PM

I posted this to the other thread, and I think it's worth putting here, too.

I've had a pheasant hunter fire a gun from behind me and just to the left of my left shoulder, aiming for a bird that was in the road just ahead of me.

And I've had people hunting groundhogs for sport, shooting right through my yard when I had a small child and a dog in the vicinity.

And another time some hunters actually did shoot my dog.

So I sure as hell think people who use guns for sport need more legally required training in how to use them responsibly.


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Subject: RE: Guns and hunting
From: DougR
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:07 PM

Training is good.

DougR


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