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TECH: Sing it in, get dots out

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Geoff the Duck 02 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Frankham 11 Sep 03 - 02:24 PM
pavane 11 Sep 03 - 12:37 PM
Sarah the flute 11 Sep 03 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,MMario 11 Sep 03 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Frankham 11 Sep 03 - 10:01 AM
pavane 11 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM
Geoff the Duck 11 Sep 03 - 04:58 AM
Mr Red 31 Mar 03 - 08:18 AM
Geoff the Duck 31 Mar 03 - 08:04 AM
JohnInKansas 21 Mar 03 - 04:03 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 03 - 04:20 AM
MMario 20 Mar 03 - 08:29 AM
JohnInKansas 20 Mar 03 - 05:24 AM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM
Genie 19 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM
Genie 19 Mar 03 - 02:39 PM
Genie 19 Mar 03 - 02:33 PM
MMario 19 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 03 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,An 19 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM
NicoleC 19 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM
Blues=Life 19 Mar 03 - 08:00 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Mar 03 - 04:00 AM
MMario 18 Mar 03 - 09:35 PM
NicoleC 18 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM
belfast 18 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM
Geoff the Duck 18 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM
MMario 17 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM
JudeL 17 Mar 03 - 11:02 AM
Dave Bryant 17 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 09:18 AM
John in Brisbane 17 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM
CapriUni 11 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM
MMario 11 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM
Frankham 10 Mar 03 - 06:34 PM
Frankham 10 Mar 03 - 06:22 PM
open mike 10 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM
Joe Offer 10 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM
Mark Clark 10 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM
pattyClink 10 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM
Mr Red 10 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM
JudeL 10 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Paul 21 Nov 01 - 01:33 PM
GUEST 21 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM
Scabby Douglas 21 Nov 01 - 11:00 AM
GUEST 21 Nov 01 - 10:07 AM
JudeL 21 Nov 01 - 09:42 AM
katlaughing 20 Nov 01 - 09:04 PM
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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

The other day I recalled this thread, and wondered if any progress is being made in the search for a useable solution.
One thing which Ibrought it to mind was hearing a song from about a year or two back. The particular track was one by Cher, and it used a sound processing effect which automatically converted anything she sang to the nearest full note. The effect was that if she sang a sliding note, instead of it being a smooth change, the computer processed note stays at the starting note, until the voice reaches a certain point, then it jumps to the next note in the scale.
I just wondered if this technology (which someome has obviously already got working effectively) could be built into the sound analysis as pre-processing before the package tries to convert it to "dots".
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 02:24 PM

If you can distinguish between high and low notes, you are not "tone deaf". It just means that the ear hasn't been trained to distinguish the pitches. It's easier for some than others but it can be acquired.

Singing is extremely important here because the sound becomes internalized. Matching the voice may require outside help such as in a teacher but it can be done.

Frank


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: pavane
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 12:37 PM

mmario,
I can only suggest you try comparing with an instrument. But if you can't tell when you are singing the same note as you are playing, then you may truly be tone deaf. (not nearly as common as people think)


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 11:10 AM

Don't spose any of you clever people would like to try singing in YMCA and sending me the dots?????!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 10:04 AM

the technical aspects of it I get. What I CAN'T get is...what note is being sung? What interval is between it and the next? (or what note is it...?


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 10:01 AM

Mmario,
Reading music is reading in a language. It becomes necessary to know what the notes mean. First, learning sharps and flats in a major key is like learning ABC's. It should be learned systematically and intelligently though. The construction of a major scale has a pattern that can be applied to all keys. THe problem is that the say most music schools teach this is that the scales are never "internalized". In order to understand them, they must be sung.

The use of soffeggio (do,re mi etc.) is useful here but I prefer to use numbers. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 with sharps and flats being expressed as IE: b2, or #4. If you start with simple songs and decide what number corresponds to the letter name on the staff (which you can soon learn to identify) and sing those numbers, you will be on the say to learning to sight sing. Then you will have an inside track into understanding why you are reading music...to interpret musical ideas.

The best way to learn the scales is to get staff paper and write them out in their respective keys this way....C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C# for the sharp keys and C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb for the flat keys. Each time you progress from one scale to the next, you add a sharp or a flat to the key signature after the treble clef sign. Do just the treble clef as this is the most practical since melodies are generally written there.

Frank Hamilton


Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: pavane
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM

All the attempts I have seen so far either don't work, or make it harder work than learning to write the dots yourself!


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 04:58 AM

Just recalled this thread.
Has anybody got any further with finding a programme which does the job?
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:18 AM

The reason tin whistles will work well on automated processes and voice doesn't is because the whistle is a tuned pipe and will play the same note each time (or it is obvious if it doesn't). The human voice has the psychological factor that none of believe we sing badly or embellish as much as we do (well most of us anyway) and our larynxes are not tuned pipes - it is our brain via ears that are tuned, and not all of us have perfect pitch. Those that do often acquired it by practice. Those that can only sing are rarely trained. I speak from personal experience. My first attempts were with a guitar tuner and it latched onto harmonics. My DOS program got better the more I used it!!!!
Isn't the brain a wonderful thing ?

My Windows prog has just passed a major hurdle but it relies on free "FFT API's" for speed and the instructions were barely adequate in Chinese, in English they are sub-basic. It is still a few months away.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:04 AM

I have downloaded a few of the available demo programmes, but haven't had much time to play about with them.
This one - TS-AudioToMIDI 2.00 was pretty accurate at converting a Tin Whistle to a MIDI. The Demo version doesn't save MIDIs, so listening to the result is all I have been able to do. It also made a fair attempt at converting a tune picked on a mandoline, especially if you set the graphic equaliser to eliminate any noises outside the range of the melody. It was patchy when attempting to convert clawhammer banjo, and got overwhelmed by the overall sound.
As far as voice was concerned, I managed to La-La a version of Carrickfergus and get out a fairly recognisable MIDI version - the notes wobbled around and the MIDI had a lot of weird squeaks, but it WAS recognisable. As I haven't paid for the version which allows me to save the MIDI produced, I cannot comment on what you would get out if you tried to put the mIDI into a notation programme. I suspect that there would be a LOT of work cleaning up the unwanted additions.
The full version is around the 20 UK Pound mark - (30 US Dollars/Euros).
As an input you really need to record a ***.wav file on another programme and then import this file. There are four different conversions to try. Some produce better results on a particular type of "sound". There are also sliders and settings which allow you to adjust what it converts as melody and what it ignores as "Background Noise".
I intend to try some others - I have tried the Free converter, "Wave Goodbye", but it isn't as easy to use, and I haven't made my opinions on it yet.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:03 PM

Guest

Will be interested in what you find. Please post comments when you get your testing done.

I'm afraid your previous tests parallel the results I got, although I didn't make and attempt to test more than a couple of programs; and I didn't do anything very systematic. As you say, they didn't meet my needs at the time.

John (in Kansas)


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:20 AM

I'll have a further attempt over the weekend, but my procedure for testing these Wave to Midi programs goes like this:

- Download a simple diatonic tune from the DT

- Create a Wave file using Wingroove, Mono only, limit the output to 8 or 16 kb, no Reverb. Save as Whistle sound rather than (say) Piano - I haven't succeeded in doing this yet.

- Import this simple Wave file into the Wave to Midi program (whichever) and try it out.

If the program cannot handle this input Wave sample with its perfect pitch, perfect timing, zero pitch modulation, zero volume variation and limited harmonics, then its ability to handle something generated by a mere human must be limited indeed.

When I last tried this testing regime a couple of years back there wasn't a single program that came within cooee.

Of the two freeware progs I mentioned earlier Wave Goodbye appears to have a lot of the science covered, but I'll report later.

O don't have a PC on the Web at the moment so I'll take a few days.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:29 AM

the educational price probably includes a pretty hefty profit. From all indications it is a pretty hefty chunk of their market.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:24 AM

The InteliScore program at the link given by Mark Clark (10 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM) above is about the only thing I've seen (for less than about $5K US) that claims to be able to handle "polyphonic" audio input. Ability to distinguish multiple simultaneous notes would be a big help in separating the "true" note from its harmonics – one of the things that makes most "one-note-at-a-time" (monophonic) converters difficult or impossible to use with any real success.

If it works, the price is would not be too unreasonable, at $79 for the registration of the download, or $99 boxed by mail, given the difficulty of doing what it "promises."

It does note, however:

"With intelliScore and additional software you can:
Print sheet music from your favorite music
Record MIDI directly into your sequencer software using your voice or any acoustic instrument
See the chord names and key detected by intelliScore
Change individual notes, swap instruments, transpose, etc."

Unfortunately, when I follow the "additional software" link, I can't discern which of the many "additional items" shown would be needed to allow you to do the above things.

I'd have to raise an eyebrow over the "with additional software you can record MIDI … using your voice or any acoustic instrument" when that's what it says the basic InteliScore program is supposed to do for you.

It looks like a program worth some investigating, and I'll put it on my rather long list - but for now I'll remain somewhat "unconvinced."

John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

Genie -

It's a little off the original subject of the thread, but I've found a need to replace my straight notation software (due to not-quite-compatible problems with XP).

I've pretty much identified Sibelius as what I'd like to have, and I'd very much prefer to deal direct - BUT:

Sibelius 2 lists at $599.00, and Photo Score Pro at $199.00, for a total of $798.00 (plus shipping), if you order it from Sibelius.

The Midi Store offers the "bundled" Sibelius 2 and Photo Score Pro for $499.00 (with free ground shipping in the US), and ProStudioMusic.com has the same package for $490 (also with free shipping).

Sibelius wants you to prove you qualify before they'll tell you what their "academic" prices are, but academic pricing from Midi Store – "available only to qualifying schools, colleges, universities, educators, students and church representatives in the USA," gets you the Sibelius 2 + Photo Score Pro for $329.00.

I have a hard time rationalizing that a 17 MB program to notate music should cost me nearly the same as a 1.4 GB operating system and a 300 MB full office suite combined ($878 for XP Pro Windows plus Office Pro at Mickey's web shop) – even given their relative market volume.

But they can discount it by 60% if you're the right kind of person?

It's a lot like the local market that tells me milk is $3.80 per gallon without their "card" but I get it for $2.89 per gallon if I use the card. Then they have the b... to try to tell me "You saved $0.91" - but the store down the street sells it for $2.74 per gallon without the card.

I just don't shop at the store with the card, but in this case there isn't a direct replacement product - so I face the moral dilema of whether withholding my business because of their predatory pricing is worth putting up with a "substitute" that isn't quite what I'd like.

I'm not objecting to their giving educational discounts - but the difference is just too great. (Since it's illegal to sell at a loss (under antitrust regulations) the "educational price" must be somewhere close to what they figure is their cost of production and distribution.)

John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

John, you can, if you wish, download the software from Coda (now MakeMusic.com) instead of having a CD shipped. If you do order a CD, I don't think the S&H is over a few bucks.

It's nice to know about discounters. Still, there may be advantages in dealing directly with the co. that makes the software. Also, Coda/MakeMusic has specials from time to time.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM

Genie -

The Midi Store offers Finale Guitar for $89. The $10 difference might be wiped out by shipping, but then you'd probably pay shipping if you get it from Finale too.

I haven't dealt with these guys, but offer them just as an example of "better pricing" that you can find with a little looking about.

John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:39 PM

Here's a link to Coda Music's "Finale: Guitar," which sells for $99.
Finale Guitar

Click where it says "Enter Notes," and you will see that there are several ways to enter the notes, including SCANNING sheet music and playing a SINGLE NOTE instrument.
If your voice doesn't have a lot of distracting overtones, I'd imagine you can plug in a miked voice instead of a piano or guitar.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:33 PM

I think Finale's new "Guitar" program is supposed to let you input sound from any source that can be plugged directly in or miked and generate either a MIDI or sheet music.

I haven't tried it myself, though. I imagine, though, that the result will depend on how true your pitch is and how simple your timing is. A really 'lyrical' arrangement, with notes held for odd lengths like 1/64 or 7/8 notes, or a voice that doesn't deliver a clear single pitch would probably confuse the program. Joe, I imagine that laryngitis might make it sound like your were playing a violin and a washboard at the same time! ;-D

Genie


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM

singing it is no problem...

but for example - even with tunes I wrote myself - I can't tell you what the realtionships are between any two of the notes without sitting down and counting staff lines, etc.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:14 PM

I haven't seen a program that provides a good solution to "singing in" music and getting dots out. The Ackkoff linked above by MMario (at 17 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM) may be as good as any (I haven't tried it); but their notes indicate 60 to 70% accuracy as the best obtainable for single note input (a melody only), which is not really as good as most people can probably do "by ear."

I see a lot of concern about "I can't recognize a C# or a Bb," but this is perhaps more of a concern than it needs to be.

Most tunes are played on, within, and around, a scale that usually doesn't even include all the notes in a full diatonic octave. Most who can play by ear probably have one or two keys that they find easiest. ANY melody can be notated in any key, and nearly all notation programs can transpose it later, if needed.

When I notate "by ear," I nearly always do it in a C-major key signature: no sharps and flats to worry about - especially if I'm using a midi keyboard for input. Rarely, I may start in G or D if its something I've played on mando a lot in one of those keys, but C is the simplest.

If you know a tune well enough to "hum" it, you can usually "set your ear" by "rolling" a standard chord progression in the key you're going to use and then immediatel starting to hum the tune to "match the sound." For a typical tune, a few repetitions of:
"C E G C E G F A c F A c G B d G B d c G E C"
will "set" your brain to the C scale, and the tune will fall into that key signature fairly easily.

Playing the strummed chord movement C F G C may be enough to "get you in key," but playing the individual notes as arpegiated (separated notes in sequence) chords will help a lot in placing the melody notes in the right relation to each other. (Of course, if you know the "correct" chord progression for the tune, use that in place of the I IV V I above.)

The key to training yourself to notate melodies is that dirty word "PRACTICE," and that means practicing SCALES. Guitarists, especially, who may be quite at home with strummed chords need to practice playing the individual notes in the chords as well as the strums. Ideally, you should be able to start on any note and instinctively play the first five notes, up and back down, of at least the major, minor, and dim scales beginning on that note, at will. (Easy to say - harder to do.)

Note that the above applies with emphasis to vocalists, who should be able to sing the first 5 notes of each of these scales when they hear the chord on a piano - for any note in their range.

As with anything, some find it easier than others. Anyone can improve, with practice; but this is not at all a necessary thing for many. Doing something well ofen makes it more fun to do, but there is the old office adage - "Don't get good at something you don't like doing."

John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,An
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM

Recently I've come in a phase where I really want to be able to read music, mainly because as a singing teacher I constantly have to expand my repertoire. And it feels like being a child all over again. It is terribly frustrating. I used a childrens programme on the pc, called Music Ace. For basic reading it was excellent, but there seem to be so many ways to grow from there and so many ways of approaching the whole theory thing... A friend of mine said something that I wanted to share with you, because my suspicion is that the 'Cants' of this thread are in the same boat. He said: "You do know your music theory. You just haven't defined it." And there have been times when I thought that it is more important to have an instinct for music than to have a grade 8 in theory. When I write or improvise music, I don't get lost in possible chord structures and key changes, because I have to rely on listening to the music inside of me and surrounding me- there are no formal rules available to me to (mis)guide me. I do realise that instrumentalists have a harder time than singers to play by ear, and I have tremendous admiration for people who know their theory. When I write together with my friend who has such an incredible knowledge of theory, we have a good combination, because we complement eachother through our different approaches. I say thank god that we have both Can'ts and Cans. We need them both!
An


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

I'm with you, MMario. The only note I can recognize is an "A," and that's only because I recognize it as the same pitch as a telephone dial tone :) I used to be able to recognize the exact frequency of feedback, which you would think could be mentally translated easily into a musical note... not so! Or rather only with a conscious mental effort to make the translation ala 512 = C. Different part of the brain, I think, and different part of hearing. I FEEL frequency (bone conduction), I HEAR music (air conduction)...

I think *anyone* can learn to sight read or play by ear or learn pitch -- it isn't some mystical talent -- but some folks are simply better at one way or the other. And most of us play music because it's fun -- does it really matter how you get there?


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Blues=Life
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:00 AM

For some reason, I'm finding this conversation fascinating. The differences between the "Can"s and the "Can't"s really are something. The "Can Sight Read" crowd seem to think the "Can't Sight Read" folks just aren't trying hard enough. There are different gifts, you know. Also, as an excellent musician I know says, you either see music as a keyboard or as a fretboard. I think it might be easier to sight read when you see music as a keyboard, in a linear fashion. But, please, remember, different horses for different courses. The music director at my church likes to joke: "How do you get a guitarist to play REAL quietly? Put sheet music in front of him." Ha-Ha, funny. However, when I wanted to sing something in a different key once, the keyboardist and the pianist both protested. "You can't just change keys like that, we don't have the music!" "Yeah," I responded,"but I've got a capo!" (I had to sing it too high, they couldn't change.)

My point? YOUR way is not necessarily THE way, and it's good to remember that when dealing with other musicians.

A "CAN'T", and darn (kindof) proud of it!
*G*
Blues
(A face for radio, a voice for mime!)


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:00 AM

MMario: it is very difficult to describe, but my best offer is that only those with "Absolute Pitch" can identify a single note in isolation. With most people (as with Nicole's comments above) it is a matter of "Relative pitch", i.e. you have a basis for comparison.
One of the best examples of 'relative pitch' which most people will be able to identify is when listening to a favourite album. If you are singing along, you know the pitch at which the next song starts without thinking about it. You may not know the note name, or whether it is a Third, or a minor fifth, above the last note of the previous song, but your subconscious has the details. If you stop the album before the song starts,and start singing, you will usually find that when you re-start it you are in tune. However, try to sing the same song later without the advance clues and you will usually find yourself off key.
Hope this clarifies.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:35 PM

That's something I've never been able to connect - what an "A" or "C" or "F-sharp" sounds like...not to the point of being able to recognize them.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: NicoleC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM

But ask me to sing with flats and sharps mixed in, or worse yet, sing something like: "1, 5, 3, 7, 2, 6, 8," and I get lost. I can sing the first note okay (if it is in fact, middle C), but I can't jump from that to E with any accuracy -- until I hear someone sing it, then I can sing it back.

Suggestion -- think of scales in terms of an orderly sequence of steps instead of a set of specific notes. If you can find the tonic and hear the difference between a half step and a whole step, you can figure out the scale. And once you have the scale figured out, you can start to think in terms of intervals instead of hitting a particular note in a scale. Each mode has it's own structure of steps and half steps.

For example, a C major scale is: CDE_FGAB_C
OR -- whole step, whole step, half-step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half-step

A D major scale is: DEF#_GABC#_D
same pattern!

A minor scale is:
whole step, half-step, whole step, whole step, half-step, whole step whole step

For example, A minor:
AB_CDE_FGA

Voila! If you know the structure, you can sing any scale. Now if you are singing in C Major, you can think of going from C to E as two whole steps, instead of trying to just know the right note when you see it on the page. Then the next note is just and interval and the one after that one... Or, "I come in a half step above that note right there..."

Anyway, it helps me relate a sound to the dots on the page.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: belfast
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

As regards scales and intervals. When I was learning (attempting to learn) sight-reading and suchlike I found it helped to identify certain intervals with the opening notes of certain songs. The first two notes of "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" gives an octave. The first two notes of "Here Comes The Bride" is a perfect fourth. A sixth, "My Bonny Lies Over The Ocean" or "I Did It My Way". The first four notes of numberless songs (MacColl's "Travelling People") for examples form a major chord. Even unusual intervals like a minor seventh can be found – the opening notes of "Who Fears To Speak Of '98".

Despite this I am still useless at transcribing or reading without a guitar or keyboard to guide me.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM

Dave - just a technical point. Most tunes written in 6/8 are usually played as two groups of three notes and so produce a quick march with two steps to the bar rather than a waltz. Jigs in 6/8 also fall into the pattern of two triplets.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM

Ackkoff


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JudeL
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:02 AM

CapriUni, this Ackoff program sounds very interesting. Have you any idea where might I find a copy & what sort of cost?


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM

I did have a copy of Sound2Midi, but I didn't find it very useful. It just about worked from a whistle or other instrument with a fairly clear waveform and fixed note registration, but was virtually useless for my voice, it was slightly better for a clear female voice (less overtones). The program was not capable of working out a time signature and as far as I remember didn't have any metronome feature which it would really need to be able to perform correct quantization.

I can read music, but I find it more difficult writing it. If you do have a simple score-writing program, it is sometimes easiest to put the notes in and move them around until you get the right pitch. Start off by working out the basic time signature - this will usually be 4/4 for common/march time or 3/4 waltz time (6/8 time is only a more convenient way of notating a fast waltz time). If you really can't distinguish a time signature, try marching around while you're singing it - if you can't manage to - it's probably waltz time so try waltzing to it. You should be able to work out the start of each bar by singing the tune and working out where the beat is - marching or waltzing to the tune can help. You can then mark these off on the words and start tryng to work out the times values of notes - rhythms tend to repeat, so often when you work out one line others will be similiar.

If you play the guitar, you should be able to find the tonic key reasonably easily - just find out which chord seems to be the right one to start on. If not use a piano or other instrument to find the pitch - it's probably easiest to work it out from the last note which is most likely to be the tonic.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:18 AM

Joe Offer

precisely why I took the approach I did. Present the data in a different form that can be understood off-line as it were. Singing or records are momentary. Slowing things down doesn't always work and you have to know the note. I chose to display the spectrum so that harmonics become apparent and they are the confirmation of any guess. Shame I have not finished it, watch this space. I did finish one version but it is DOS and was limited to one obscure sampling frequency.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM

I quickly checked out the available software at hitsquad,com and selected a couple of freeware examples, GoMinimal and Wave Goodbye, the latter havibg a very informative site, saying inter alia that the human voice is among the hardest instruments to decode because it's so rich in harmonics.

Must admit that when I last investigated the crop a couple of years ago there were a lot of extravagant claims but bugger all substance.

I'll report back when I've had a good look at these two freebies.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM

I think that is part of my problem - I can *sing* the scales - but can't "hear" them.

Same here, MMario. It's easy enough to sing: "1, 2, 3,..." because I've already heard the scale, and I know how it's supposed to sound.

But ask me to sing with flats and sharps mixed in, or worse yet, sing something like: "1, 5, 3, 7, 2, 6, 8," and I get lost. I can sing the first note okay (if it is in fact, middle C), but I can't jump from that to E with any accuracy -- until I hear someone sing it, then I can sing it back.

I have a voice-to-midi program called Akoff Music Composer, and it's pretty good... I don't have perfect picth, and so I slide around the notes a lot, and if I breathe on the microphone wrong, that registers as extra notes, too... but then I convert the .wav to midi, import the midi to Noteworthy, and then edit out all the notes I don't want, and tweak the pitches and timing, etc.

One neat thing about Akoff: it shows a mini piano keyboard at the bottom, and as you sing a note, the corresponding key on the piano flashes green. It's humiliating, sometimes, when I'm reminded just how off my singing is -- when it turns out I'm not singing the note I think I am. But if I took the time to really practice with it, my pitch would very likely improve.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM

I think that is part of my problem - I can *sing* the scales - but can't "hear" them.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:34 PM

Don't know if this got through. I'll try again.

Major Scale: sing it. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

Harmonic Minor Scale: sing it 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7,8

Natural Minor Scale: sing it 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7,8

It's important that you hear how the minor scales are altered by the b's (flats) from the major scale. sing em, sing 'em, sing 'em.

Now when you can hear those scales, the next step is to learn the key signatures for sharp and flat keys. (This is the hard part)

Once you know that then you look at the dots...find the key and write the numbers above or below the notes. Then sing 'em.

So if you are for example in the key of D, you gotta' know that it contains two sharps, F# and C#. So: D is 1, E is 2, F# is 3, G is 4, A is 5, B is 6, C# is 7 and the high D is 8.
                                                                                             3   (etc.)
                                                                                       2
When singing these numbers I like to space them: 1

Reading the rhythm is a whole different topic.

You may not be able to apply the above information without help. But that's the road map. When you see the pitch relationship in the notes as defined as a pitch number, then you're hot on the trail.

Frank


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:22 PM

Hi,
The piece that is missing here is the relationship of notes to a definable scale. Each note represents a numeric approach. The numbers are the pitches.

Here's how to sight-sing.

1.    Learn to sing the major scale:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 (any starting note or key will do)


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: open mike
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM

those guests comments were made years ago..this thread
has been revived just recently..I have been checking
out the Igor NOteheads programs--more info here--
http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_noteheads_igor_engraver/
and have used a thing called MusicEase to write tunes, too.
http://www.musicease.com/
not sure what the latest versions offer...it has been a
while...since i ch3eckd them out...but you might find somethng
here..


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Finale has a feature that's supposed to record notes you play into your computer microphone. I tried singing with laryngitis, and the results were abominable.
Back to the drawing board.
-Joe Offer-


Hi, Patty - don't get too upset about how our Guest insulted our beloved MMario. Note the date of the Guest's posts.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

The Sound2MIDI program seems to be defunct. The original home site was a UK company called AudioWorks
AudioWorks Ltd
PO BOX 9099,
London
N20 9BG
Tel: +44(0)181-445 4331
FAX: +44(0)181-445 4442
Internet: http://www.audioworks.com
but the site seems to be gone and I assume the company is as well. I was able to find a demo version of Sound2MIDI from 1998 but nothing more recent.

There are some programs that seem to do the same trick—listen to a music source and generate MIDI—but I haven't yet tried them out. A couple of sites are Solo Explorer and intelliScore.

The idea of being able to sing into your computer's microphone and generate a MIDI is compelling because it would allow everyone here to capture a melody and generate an ABC file to help fill out the melodies in the Digital Tradition. It might also make it more convenient to submit a melody together with lyrics when posting a song to the forum.

I hope some of us can make time to start playing with this capability.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: pattyClink
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM

GUEST, STEP OFF!! MMario, please ignore the rude jerk behind the Guest sign. The beauty of notation software is your brain doesn't have to make 2 or 3 or 4 translations: from sound, to note, to finding the note on the instrument, to physically picking or pounding, then back to staff notation. You can write out pure music without being a skilled picker or pounder. And if you have no other reason to learn to pick or pound something, it's a waste of your valuable time and unnecessary brain stress to do it. Keep on transcribing as you see fit and pay no attention to the jerk behind the instrument!


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM

I'm writing some. WAV to display spectrum and a bit of help with the pitch and timing. The whistles and bells are not finished. The basic problem is that people may not sing with perfect pitch and slide and glissando so a finished answer is never the best. My philosophy is to get the PC to do the bits we find hard and leave the judgement to humnans.

PM me here or go to cresby.com and web-mail from there


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JudeL
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

No guest NOT anyone can learn to do it. It's as if I have a form of musical dyslexia. In general, people who have dyslexia have no problems with pronouncing the words they have learnt by hearing them from others, and they can pick out and identify individual letters. The problem is that they may not always recognise whole words when they are written down and will probably have difficulty pronouncing a word that they see written down that they have not previously heard spoken.

I see my inability to sight read like that. I can (usually) repeat a musical phrase which I have heard by singing it. I can (and usually do) transpose it into a key which is more comfortable for me to sing in. With practice I can play a tune on a keyboard instrument, provided I know what the end product is supposed to sound like. I can even (with a little time) pick out a tune I know. I can identify what each dot on the page means in terms of the key on a piano and the relative amount of time it is played for. What I CANNOT do is look at a page of dots and hear a tune in my head, and if I cannot hear it I cannot play it.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 01:33 PM

Well, Guest

I don't know if you've ever spoken to Lesley?

If you did (and I don't think she'd mind my saying this) she'd tell you that her keyboard skills were limited and that she uses a similar technique as MMario to make up her midis.

Face it guest, your arguement is wrong

Paul


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM

Nobody is looking down on anybody--the point is only that keyboard technique makes it a lot easier to work with notation/sequencing programs, and that anyone can learn to do it--The best sounding MIDI files tend to come from people who are good keyboardists--check out Lesley Nelson's work at Contemplations if you don't believe me--


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:00 AM

GUEST, I'm with MMario on this one... I can pick out a melody line from the staff onto a keyboard, or more easily onto guitar.. (if there aren't too many shrps or flats).

But I don't now have the patience to invest the time on learning to do it "properly".

I can use notation software to output stuff that's readable as music, and can use it to document things I have composed.

I know that there are many many great musicians who transcend what's "written" to enhance and improvise it.. But I have also met many technically competent musicians who were stumped unless they had "the dots" in front of them.

When it comes to folk music, at least 50% of it is in the interpretation and despite people's efforts at boxing the genre in, there is (In My Not-So_Humble Opinion) no truly "right" and "wrong " way to play it.

In addition, the primary sources for much of the music we discuss here is aural - either from recordings or live performance, so looking for the written music can be futile - sometimes the performer may never have written the music down in a formal fashion. I know several really good songwriters who'd be incapable of doing so. That inability does not diminish their talent.

I have often used "the dots" when I was unsure of how much a performer had ornamented the original melody, - but what I want is that melody. If I want it, I'll take it from there and work it up..

So what's my point? Umm, I suppose I don't appreciate the feeling that I'm being "looked down on" for declining to learn to read music properly. Does everyone who wants to use a computer learn how to program? Err.. no. Does that stop them from being able to use a PC - No. I think the analogy applies to music too.. I would say that my nderstanding of musical theory has been enhanced by using software like NoteWorthy, and I am immensely grateful that it's there.

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 10:07 AM

I think you fellows are making too much work out of it--reading music is a basically mindless activity--you look at the page, and play TaTiTaTiTaah if that is what it says. It is mostly practice and repetition, first to learn what the notes mean, then to make sure you get them right--A lot of people get figetty when they sit down to play, and never learn how to relax and just concentrate on the page--Laugh if you want, but learning a yoga excercise for centering and focussing often does more good here than a stack of books and a line of music teachers.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JudeL
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:42 AM

Mmario - I know exactly where you're coming from. I also have tried to learn, I understand the theory of identifying a note as written down, can pick it out on a piano, then either from the relative up's & downs pick out the next note, and I understand the theorys of time values .... I can even (if I know it well and given time) pick out and can hear to correct a melody line. Although the key will rarely be the original. But this is a very laborious process, and I get no sense of tune from the picked out notes, they remain as individual sounds. I cannot sight read, either to play or sing .. but I hvae a reasonably accurate musical memory and an awareness of relative notes or when a note is off pitch, (it sounds right or wrong). But I still can't sightread either to sing or to play music It's like a child who knows their letters but cannot make the jump from that to meaningful words.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 09:04 PM

MMario, it's easy for me to do, no braggin, just ahve the natural ability coupled with years of family and teachers. I'd be happy to help out, too, so there ya go, ya got two of us, pick yer pie-zen!**BG**


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