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BS: The UK Royal Family

GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 10:14 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 01 - 06:53 PM
Gareth 16 Nov 01 - 06:48 PM
Eric the Viking 16 Nov 01 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Charles two 16 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM
English Jon 16 Nov 01 - 12:46 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 01 - 12:24 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Nov 01 - 11:55 AM
Cllr 16 Nov 01 - 11:12 AM
English Jon 16 Nov 01 - 11:01 AM
GUEST 15 Nov 01 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,dharmagirl 15 Nov 01 - 10:15 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 01 - 09:58 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 15 Nov 01 - 08:21 PM
Cllr 15 Nov 01 - 08:02 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 01 - 07:53 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 01 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,FOG(Friend of Gnome) 15 Nov 01 - 07:07 PM
Cllr 15 Nov 01 - 06:54 PM
Penny S. 15 Nov 01 - 05:38 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Nov 01 - 04:46 PM
Eric the Viking 15 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM
Eric the Viking 15 Nov 01 - 03:09 PM
Oaklet 15 Nov 01 - 02:14 PM
Mrs.Duck 15 Nov 01 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Tom 15 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Dooley 15 Nov 01 - 09:18 AM
Fiolar 15 Nov 01 - 09:03 AM
Cllr 15 Nov 01 - 07:52 AM
Cllr 15 Nov 01 - 07:34 AM
GUEST 15 Nov 01 - 07:32 AM
Celtic Soul 14 Nov 01 - 10:15 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 01 - 09:35 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 14 Nov 01 - 09:16 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 01 - 09:00 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 14 Nov 01 - 08:49 PM
AliUK 14 Nov 01 - 08:48 PM
Cobble 14 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM
Crane Driver 14 Nov 01 - 08:19 PM
Cobble 14 Nov 01 - 07:54 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 01 - 07:27 PM
Jon Freeman 14 Nov 01 - 07:09 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14 Nov 01 - 07:09 PM
Murray MacLeod 14 Nov 01 - 07:04 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14 Nov 01 - 07:00 PM
Murray MacLeod 14 Nov 01 - 06:56 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14 Nov 01 - 06:46 PM
Murray MacLeod 14 Nov 01 - 05:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Nov 01 - 05:15 PM
Gareth 14 Nov 01 - 05:11 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:14 PM

i thot yo bew re9sted fru ays thins lik this


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 06:53 PM

Could ypu please show a little respect to John, who started this thread, and has technical problems with threads over 100 messages, by posting your rants to:

Royal Family - Part 2

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 06:48 PM

Good few pints were it Eric ?

Guest we were trying to discuss, objectivly, the Royal Familly - Still its nice to know that Ian Duncan-Smith is a lurking Guest.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 06:38 PM

Firstly Cllr, I am obviously not intellegent-but more intellegent than you or you wouldn't be a tory!! (only joking, well sort of- you can hold whatever beliefs you wish and I have no desire to enter a personal arguement) But my point was that I would prefer to address you by a name personally, not by your position in society,( which, irrespective of political colour does not need stating to us peasents and is of NO relavence from my point of view)and also not by your accademic qualifications.Perhaps others might like to call themselves; PhD or MA or Dr etc (then where would we be?)and,as I feel we are all of equal status in this forum (except in musical talent) Why should I need to refer to an earlier post to form my own opinion? ( It WAS you, in a much earlier thread who stated you'd called yourself Cllr "because you are one"!-as if it gave importance or creedence to your words above others, perhaps bus driver or nurse is of less importance, we have both here-but they don't name themselves as such)But I digress.

There is only one truth or fact scientifically speaking. Unfortunately people distort and re-write the truth to suit them.(There is a link beteen knowledge and power) So much "factual" evidence is from the writers interpretation of the truth and can be slurred to fit the required purpose without becoming untrue, merely biased in one direction or another to fit the required audience.(Such as Maggie taking Milton Friedmans work and making her distorted view fit her political dogma or history from the winners point of view)

That as it maybe, I still have no love for royalty.

Next-the princes trust does indeed do splendid work and some of the young people I work with have been direct recipients of such(but they bloody well need it, living near to or below the poverty line-artificially set at a low level so it doesn't seem so bad!). It is good that the advantaged help the disadvantaged-so they should (not enough do and with not enough impact on the lives of those they are helping, or their own wealth) This is not a brag, but a statement of fact, that my children have been encouraged never to pass a charity collection of any description for any purpose and not make a donation of even the smallest coin that they have in their possession. This they now do freely, with a consideration for their fellow beings, irrespective of race, religion or creed. It is a shame however that those of such privallege, have so much that they are in a much more fortunate position than the common man, who often cares more for his fellows than those of privallege.

Guest, the prince and others being patrons of so many organisations is a good thing-the other snooties have to keep up with the rest of the mob, so they join and sit there eating good free lunches, drinking champers, getting tax breaks for their donations and generally spending much more in one day than the monthly wages of a very hard working family man on basic minimum wage (not envy-fact). Most of them are sycophants.(And before it is suggested that I am denigrating the efforts of human beings to make more of their potential, to develop their skills and talents I am not- I applaud the eforts of everyone who manages improvement in even the smallest directions in their lives, but realise that many are prevented from doing so in our society for a variety of reasons)I also have to state that I equally despise the fact, we have prime ministers who consider themselves "presidential" and a dictator is a dictator no matter what political colour, Blair, Thatcher they are all the same(as are many politicians who use their role for their own ends or gain).

I'd also remove the church as well-in it's physical state, give the lands back to the people as common lands, return the huge wealth of the secular wing in this country to the poor from which it was stolen or extorted by fear. I would also make sure that those who devote their lives to their parish got a decent wage whilst the bishops etc, could walk barefoot and naked for all I care. Since the church and the monarchy have conspired over time to enslave and control the poor and weaker, I'd let those with genuine faith,though I do not but respect their position, have a decent life.

I'd have a Jimmi Hendrix head on the coins, or Ewan McColl- Hendrix for his being not british, black and against the establishment-and a heavy metal guitar player to boot. McColl for his sensitivety and documenting the suffering of his fellow man or Tony Benn, Gerald Nabaro (A most eloquent speaker in his time)Ken Livingstone or Lenny Henry-to prove the whole thing and idea is a joke! I'd actually prefer the Euro!

Still as one so lacking in intelegence, my words will carry no weight ( I do however know the difference between your and you're!)So for the time being, I'll leave it there.

A president, you vote for and can vote out. A monarchy believe it is their divine right to rule. It is by an accident of genetics and luck that we are who we are and are born where we are.

I've said it before-it is the worth of the person that counts, not what the person is worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST,Charles two
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM

EAR!EAR1


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: English Jon
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 12:46 PM

By not voting for them. Not that we get to vote for the queen anyway.

How about Spike Milligan's head on all british coins, talking of Goons? He's popular with the present lot of royalty at any rate, and with the great unwashed, to boot.

My evil ex-girlfriend's brother (who was a college friend of that bloke who does "Ali G") did a TV show in which he pretended to be "The Earl of Newmarket" and spent a week or two duping Americans to comic effect. OK, he's a twat, but it did show that if you tell enough people you're royalty with a straight face, they believe you. He even conferred a "knighthood" on a college professor in Philadelphia, and no one thought to question it. Maybe this shows that a title actually has no value whatsoever?

Oh dear. Just got myself struck off the birthday honours list there, didn't I?

EJ


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 12:24 PM

Would you really want someone like Blair to be the constitutional head of state? Or some prat like Byers. Or a Goon like Hoon? How would you prevent it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:55 AM

I would be happy to see Vanessa Mae on the coins, I reckon she is a lot better looking than the queen.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:12 AM

Nice Humourous response EJ but you forgot to mention whose face would be the replacement on the coins.! Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: English Jon
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:01 AM

Well, the monarchy is constitutional only, yes? So, the queen hasn't any real political clout, merely signing things for the Commons/Lords So she's a paid administrator, effectively?

So, why not advertise for a new secretary? I bet there are temp agencies out there who could get us someone with better typing skills for a tenth of the salary...

What do the other royals do? Can't think of too much in the way of kingly business that falls outside the realms of what anyone else could do? Again, off to Alfred Marks...

Buckingham palace... Very expensive office building... There are some great industrial units free in Tottenham - much cheaper. We'll use the palace as a new hospital, and staff it and equip it with some of the money saved (see above).

EJ


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:28 PM

dharmagirl. If humour were a deciding factor, then I would choose the Wombles of Wimbledon. I assume you mean Wallace and Gromit? I'm not familiar with Wallice and Grommitt? I would liken myself to Preston.. who lives in the basement of Wendolene's wool shop; and is something of a sheep shagger and truck driver....lol


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST,dharmagirl
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:15 PM

Wallice & Grommitt are funnier than the Windsors. I vote for them!!!!!! hg


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:58 PM

Cllr. You,sir, are most welcome. as for the opinions of others (respected though they are) it is fairly obvious that possesion of knowledge and facts will never change their emotionally confused minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:21 PM

I agree with what Eric The Viking said.( Every word of it)


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:02 PM

Well there you go. Thank you guest.Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:53 PM

The Prince's Trust is the biggest of the charities backed by The Prince of Wales.

The Prince of Wales set up The Prince's Trust in 1976 to help young people to succeed by giving them opportunities which they would otherwise not have. Over half a million, most of them disadvantaged in some way, have been helped by its activities, which continue to expand.

The Prince's Trust, which had a turnover of £32 million in 1998, is the biggest of the charitable organisations in which His Royal Highness takes a guiding interest. He founded most of them himself.

The Prince of Wales's Charitable Foundation was established in 1979. Originally known as The Prince of Wales's Charitable Trust, it distributes money each year to benefit a wide range of causes throughout the world: in 1997 the Foundation made donations totalling £150,000.

The Foundation derives a significant part of its income from royalties from the sale of books by The Prince of Wales and lithographs made from his own watercolours, together with disposable profits from Duchy Originals Limited, which The Prince established in 1990 to sell a range of food and drink products using simple, natural ingredients.

The Prince's Foundation is a new charitable organisation, formed to unite and extend HRH The Prince's of Wales's initiatives in architectural design, building and urban regeneration. It brings together The School for Architecture and the Building Arts, The Urban Villages Forum, Regeneration Through Heritage, and The Phoenix Trust.

The Prince of Wales, President of Business in the Community since November 1985, is much involved in the strategic direction of the organisation and takes a close interest in its work to inspire companies to increase their contribution to social and economic regeneration. In 1990 he initiated business-led teams in areas including equal opportunities, education and environment.

Experience of business and community partnerships within the UK through Business in the Community led His Royal Highness to form The Prince of Wales Business Leaders Forum in 1990, as a focus for international business to work together in the global promotion of socially responsible business practices. It has 50 international member companies.

The Prince is also permanent patron or president of more than 270 organisations, and is temporary patron or president of more than 100 more.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:46 PM

Actually the largest landowner in the UK is the Church of England not the Royal family... HRH Prince Charles makes his estates pay for themselves, by being a shrewd business man, and a good organic farmer. By far the most industrious and eager to listen to ordinary people from all over the Commonwealth. HRH has been known to be vocal and adversarial with the "establishment" on matters of architecture and housing developments. He has shown some innovative alternatives to concrete jungles (aka public housing estates) Also a champion for greening cities and environmental protection. I admire the man, i'm not rich, and come from working class industrial background.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST,FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:07 PM

Some short while back in this thread Guest said that Sandringham(or was it Balmoral) had been left to the nation. Well I reckon since its ours, all UK mudcatters who can produce their passports to prove they are her majesty's subjects must surely be able to march up to the door and get a meal and a bed for the night .

Yeah-just try it and see how far your royal security man will kick your arse.

Royal family-a quaint and expensive bunch of wasters.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 06:54 PM

Eric the viking You can call me sad and you can suggest I'm bragging- it doesn't make it true. I was responding to comments in a post that were a personal slur and incorrect factually. I know that there are many intelligent people who are more sensible qualified etc than me.Shame your not one of them or you would have looked at my post in the context of the previous post from Fionn that had attacked me. Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 05:38 PM

Gareth, by the Browne reference, I was off the Royals and on to the Norman landholders being replaced by the Tudors' "common" supporters as large estate holders. The royals are not, I understand, the largest (I despise the term owner of land). Crane Driver, I agree that after five generations, the number of ancestors exceeds the number of chromosomes, and so the probability of inheritance from any particular ancestor starts to diminish somewhat. They were still required to pass on the baton, as it were, and when the royal line is still projected back to Noah in the Ark, I was going by their own logic. They go back, incidentally, via the Welsh line just one short of Aphrodite, and by the English line just one short of Woden, and guess how much I believe in those two ancestors. You are also forgetting the family's strong adherence to inbreeding. Unlike other families, there is a stronger probability of ancestors contributing to the present generation - which is probably why they do it.

Incidentally, I tried rereading this thread while I was at school, along with Harry Potter and the dead parrot. All three were banned by nanny - I think I know why this one fell foul, but not the others.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 04:46 PM

I have nothing against the monarchy. I don't like Charles. I will be upset If I have to have him for my head of state. That is a problem with monarchy you don't get to kick out the bad ones.

I read somewhere that the Queens wealth come from rental of much valuable property in London I've also read that the english people spend a lot of money on the upkeep of symbols like royal yachts and palaces.

As for subject or citizen, Canadian citizens are nominal subjects of the Queen, but she can't give us any orders, so who cares??


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

ps-I was born a free man, many of my ancestors were freemen. I don't own anybody, nobody owns me, I wont sell myself, just my ability to work,or my pricicples and I am NO-ones bloody subjetc!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:09 PM

Penny, you are quite right-I was simplifying the geneteic line-since, I guess, with a tracable family history to before the conquest, I have some claim to the throne. (Don't bloody want it, or their money)However the point still remains (though it isn't saxon jeasously at the man on horseback) that the monarchy in this country (and their cronies eg people who put a title to their name)still control (or hope/wish to) the vast amounts of wealth and power. The Dutch Royal family live a much more simple life and have much love and respect.

(as for cllr-a sad person who feels that there is more importance to them in telling us all their role in civic life, and less for their role as a human being-other wise they'd have a name. You will find many people on this site with accademic qualifications and professional memberships that are equally as accademic,intellegent, rational and logical and well skilled but without bragging about it)

I agree about spreading the vast wealth of the stealing robbing royal family and their ancestors and present offspring to the poor and needy would harldy constitue a drop on the ocean (Mainly due to the tories dismantling the welfare state etc) HOWEVER I would love to see it done on the principle that it would put them on the same level as most of us (most tories excepted, who don't feel the need for equality with their fellow travellers towards death)

Also my father fought in the war-he did not fight for King and country ! he fought for the freedom of his fellow man against facism-so you can bollocks off with that notion (Tom)

It says it all for Britain when we have a Royal society for the protection of animals and only a National society for the protection of children. When you rob the royal mail, the sentence is far higher than for robbing Joe soap.

All in all-I haven't changed me mind.

Sorry Gareth, my friend-what species of rare breed sheep was killed off in the 1200's ?


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Oaklet
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 02:14 PM

I think that the BBC should remove the ban on screening "It's a Royal Knockout". This was a risible 80s piece of Edward-inspired fun to show that the Royals had a human form, in case you had never seen it. Edward and Anne captained two teams drawn from the "mejia". I think that Pamela Stephenson was one. Lots of us in the UK were horrified by the awfulness of it all. They can trace their popular decline to this one televisual feast and it serves 'em right. Don't suppose anyone's got a copy of the broadcast?


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 02:05 PM

Fionn the term queen mother has a dictionary definition of
"the widow of the former king who is also the mother of the reigning monarch"
otherwise she would be the queen dowager. It has been used throughout history, most recently Queen Mary of Teck, the widow of George V and mother of George VI and the earliest reference I found was Eleonor of Aquitaine wife of Henry II and mother of Richard the Lionheart - I wouldn't have fancied your chances telling her she wasn't a Queen!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM

Emmmm, I have read a lot of the replys, so many for and so many against. In general they do more good than harm. They are also a rallying point, such as in WWII when we in Britain fought for King and Country. But for all the opposition towards them I have a little bit of pride in my own heritage, you see my ancestors include some of these great Kings and Queens of history. Am I an Earl, a Lord or even Sir somebody or other?,no, I am a small leaf on a very large tree, a very plain mister, but I have something to look back at, something that I am proud of. You yourselves if you study your own geoealogy will be surprised at what you find.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST,Dooley
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:18 AM

All this is fascinating if not currently particularly relevant stuff; we need a head of state and on balance the people here in the UK respect and admire the two members of the royal family in particular - the Queen and her ageing mother - notwithstanding all the evidence that HRH Queen Mother etc is indeed a manipulative old schemer who learnt how to manipulate the press to her own advantage 65 years ago. The reason is simply that neither really says anything at all and what is said is bland and noncontroversial. The lesson here seems to be to let the hereditary priveleged have their lifestyle as long as they keep stum and don't rock the boat. Let the politicians do the talking and stand by their actions. The result of abolishing the monarchy would be insignificant materially and culturally dimishing for most people here. If they are non controversial and private, even boring - long may it continue!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:03 AM

A point. Henry VIII got the title "Defender of the Faith" for his book condemning Martin Luther, from Pope Leo X in 1521. It always has amused me how the British monarchy continues to use the title since even though they are no longer Catholic and Charlie boy wants it changed to "Defender of Faith." Seems to me it would be like changing the "Order of the Bath" to the Order of the washbowl.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:52 AM

Fionn I wasn't going to dignify your comments with a response seeing as you stooped to getting personal but I must factually correct your attempt to mislead people. To quote you "If you want to be an authority on the constitution, you'll have to do like I did and work at it (not easy, because in the UK there isn't one)."-well actually- I have a degree in Politics & Modern History Bsc from Brunel University. The following is paraphrased from an essay I wrote on the subject a few years ago. My source material "Politics UK" a Prentice Hall publication."A constitution can be defined as a system of laws,customs and conventions which defines the composition and powers of the organs of the state (such as government, Parliament,and the courts) and regulates the relations of various state organs to one another and of those state organs to the private citizen. The british constition differs from most in that it is not drawn up in a single codified document and as such it is described as an "unwritten" constitution However much of the constitution exists in "written" form. Many Acts of Parliament such as the Parliment acts 1911 and 1949 are clearly measures of constitutional law. Those acts constitute formal, written - and binding - documents. To describe the constitution as unwritten is thus misleading. Rather, what Britain has is a part written and uncodified constitution." Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:34 AM

once again I find myself cordially disagreeing with AliUK. Who for a non-tory is ok. I belive the constitutional checks and balences do mean something but then I'm not a republican.If the Queen exercised her powers dissolving parliment, refusal to sign laws refusal to form the government etc these powers could be modified or taken away after a mandate from the people, this stops prime ministers declaring themselves in charge for life or compulsory banjo lessons for all, as it would need HRH ratification to be legal. Alright these are extreme examples but still a valid one. (similar debates have arisen over the house of lords use of its powers)The checks and balences would stop anything from happening if it was truly desired by the majority of the voting public but as possible delaying measures it does ensure that Politicians or Parties have to work within the current framework. Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:32 AM

Hello all,

I've read through this thread and to answer the question posed I would say that no, the existance of a monarch or not, would not make any difference to me visiting Great Britain if I were an American, the common links between the two countries are as long as they are durable.

To Fionn, on this and other threads, the impression I get is that no matter the question or topic of discussion - the only thing you seem capable of, or are interested in, is "Brit Bashing". In content, your input is consistantly destructive and subjective. I am extremely pleased that I do not share your "doom and gloom", vindictive, spiteful and bitter out-look on life. For once I would love to read something from you that is 1) Relevant; 2) Constructive, and 3) Objective.

There also seems to me to be some misconception as to what the Royal Family actually own and how they acquired it. As far as I know Sandringham is the Queen's home and possibly Balmoral. I say possibly about Balmoral because I think the Queen gifted that to the nation but I'm not sure. When George the First became King of England, the family were far from wealthy, as Elector of Hanover he arrived in England to provide the nation with a stable and acceptable head of state as a constitutional monarch (He wasn't all that acceptable to the deposed Stuarts, but then that was natural as they'd just recently been sacked). Queen Victoria married one Albert Saxe-Coburg who, although extremely capable, was not really permitted by the establishment of the day to do very much. He turned his attention to looking after his family. To this task he brought considerable energy, skill and a great deal of common sense. He bought Sandringham and developed it from a run down country estate into an enterprise that thrived, he did the same with Balmoral. It wasn't given to him, he didn't steal it, he worked at it.

The money voted for the Civil List by Parliament to cover the expenses of being Head of State would not alter a jot if the monarchy were abolished - it would go to someone else - and should the new head of state be elected by the people of the United Kingdom today we would probably end up with "Posh & Becks". I know which I'd prefer to represent the nation - the present "Royal Family" wins hands down.

Looking from the outside the differences between America and the United Kingdom with respect to heads of state and government I note the following.

America : Head of State is the President who is elected (max duration, two terms of four years). Once elected he puts in place his/her administration - who can come from anywhere (i.e. not elected, but some posts/all posts have to be agreed by the Senate/House of Representatives?) The President may be Democratic, Republican or Independent (although I cannot ever recall there ever having been an Independent President in office). The President and his administration then govern the country with the Senate and House of Representatives providing the checks and balances. The President obviously has an easier time if he is Republican and the Republican Party has the majority of seats in the Senate and House of Representatives. The President is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and he holds the nuclear trigger.

United Kingdom : Head of State is the reigning Monarch, it is a life time job from point of succession and has extremely limited powers and is strictly non-political. The government of the United Kingdom is formed by the political party that wins a free and democratic election. The head of government is the Prime Minister who is elected by his political party the Monarch has no say in the matter. The United Kingdom's head of state fulfils no military role other than on ceremonial occasions and has no say on whether the armed forces are committed to armed conflict, or not (Note during the Falklands War the present Queen's son was a serving as a helicopter pilot in the Royal Navy - she no doubt, could have pulled a few strings to remove him from danger, which would have been quite natural for a mother to do, but she did not). Under the British system checks and balances to the government of the day are provided by the opposition in the House of Commons and by the House of Lords.

Conclusion : The American head of state is a powerfull political office with fearsome responsibilitïes. It is politically motivated through the system of party politics in the United States of America. If that Party or that President gets it wrong the potential for major disaster exists. The United Kingdom's head of state provides impartial continuity without interference with the elected representatives of the people. I would say the system in the UK is more directly hands on and a bit nearer to the electorate - my opinion only so not worth a damn.

The United Kingdom has a long and significant history, our monarchy is a link with that history, some may say relic and they are fully entitled to hold that opinion. I believe that they perform their required duties and many others well. Of the Royal family I have met, the Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen Mother, Prince Charles and Princess Anne. Speaking from personal experience, and I generally take people as I find them, I find no difficulty at all in being a "subject" as opposed to being a "citizen" - it wouldn't one one whit of difference to my life if that status were to change tomorrow. I would hate to see the monarchy abolished, but again that is only my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 10:15 PM

I'll tell you the thing that will eventually get me over to that side of the pond one day; The Pubs. I wanna pub crawl the whole of the British Isles, drink *real* Guinness, listen to local music and maybe not even once open my mouth (yeah, ok...that's a stretch! ;D ) What I will not be hankering to stand in line to see is the Royals. But then, I rather think I am considered a weirdo by a great many of my fellow Yanks.

As for whether or not to abolish the monarchy, I'd say what the hey, leave 'em alone. If anyone tells you that there is no such thing as Royalty in the US, then please tell me why most of our politicians have lineages filled with former politicians? And then, there's Hollyweird, where some of our recent and current politicians come from.

But that is another rant for another day! ;D


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 09:35 PM

Fionn. you obviously have a lot of issues to deal with... Your bigotry, anger and hatred shows itself, and I understand it, but please overcome it, and read and learn before allowing it to blind you to fact...


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 09:16 PM

Well Di did shake hands with AIDS sufferers when no-one else would touch them, and she did (briefly) get the world to think again about landmines - until the USA found it expedient to pollute Afghanistan with cluster bombs. But Princess Anne has done much more, I readily agree.

So what? She chose to do it, like lots of folk do. She didn't hae to be a princess to do it, and it takes more than that to make the monarchy OK.

And for every Anne, there are half-a-dozen Princess Margarets, Princess Michaels (sic) etc, not to mention the fucking Wessexes.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 09:00 PM

Anyone think about how much charitable work Princess Anne has done over the years? Never a mention in the press,,, but if she fell of a horse it would make front page, and be discussed for over a week. She did a lot more than Dianna ever did (which was just show up and do photo sessions)...... Read and learn, before forming an opinion based on empty headed irrational ranting...


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:49 PM

Bravo, Maxine! Bravo Jack the Sailor!

Mrs Duck, where and when was the title Queen Mother used before? This drunkeb bitch got to be queen only because her brother-in-law fell for the shopaholic Mrs Wallace. She ceased to be queen when her hubby died. Or did according to all precedent. Hence her invention of that title.

With King George VI, WW2 and QE2, the monarchy enjoyed a brief interlude from its usually dissolute state. And it invented a role for itself as role-model family. Sadley, three and a half divorces, and another on the way, put paid to that.

But rest assured, the nonarchy will not survive Prince Charles. This weirdo, who sets himself against innovation in architecture, talks to vegetables, and who adopted the repulsive Lauren van der Post as his mentor (as a replacement for the naval-ratings shagger "Lord" Mountbatten (ie Battenburg, before a discreet name change), will be about 80 when he assumes the crown - and as hopelessly out of touch with his subjects as it's possible to get.

If the monarchy is so marvellous, why not one for the USA? And imagine introducing one for Ireland!

Cllr, I ignored your constitution drivel because it came from a jumped up nerd who thinks that being a "cllr" is some big deal, when in fact it means fuck all. (I am myself a "cllr" for what it's worth.) I bet you got in unopposed! If you want to be an authority on the constitution, you'll have to do like I did and work at it (not easy, because in the UK there isn't one).


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: AliUK
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:48 PM

once again I find myself cordially disagreeing with Cllr. Who for a tory is ok. The checks and balances of a constitutional monarchy actually dont mean a thing. As a republican I find that the fact that a bunch of people who are there simply to reinforce the class system in the UK an affront to logical thinking. Monetarily speaking the french have survived and prospered from a monarchy that hasnt existed for two hundred years, what difference would it make to the UK tourist economy if the people didnt actually exist anymore? What real power does the Queen have? None. The formalities of handing over parliament could be handled just as well by a democratically elected officer ( its worked in the United States for a number of years). Quite frankly the English( german-greek-norman-austrian) royal family doesnt really have any function in British society today, except to fill the tabloids and gossip columns around the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cobble
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM

Crane Driver..... Its one sixteenth from Edward VII and 32 x 2 from Viccy, Phil the Greek is also decended from her. :-)

Mrs C


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Crane Driver
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:19 PM

And can we please stop bringing genetics into the royalty myth? Most of us will have noticed by now that people generally have two parents. Thus only half of Charlie's genes are from Mummy. Likewise Charlie has one quarter from George 6, one eighth from George 5 and one sixteenth from Viccy. That's 2 chromosomes out of 32. Go back any further, and you can forget it.

No, I don't believe in kings, any more than I believe in the tooth fairy. But abolish them? Why bother? It won't make any odds, and the way they're going now, they'll abolish themselves soon enough, without us having to do the work.

I don't think they do any real harm, they just don't live on the same planet as me.

Crane Driver


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Cobble
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:54 PM

bill/sables...... your story about your "bugger" ancestors may explain why you are having to work in the dungeons of York. Serves you right you old bugger. *BG*

Not the Cobbles , somebody else. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:27 PM

you really are short of things to talk about


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:09 PM

Murray, wealth in itself doesn't bother me. What bothers me in this case is who pays for the wealth. I am not clear on anything but I was under the impression that they get vast incomes from the state.

Usefullness of a so called "head of state" also bothers me.

Perhaps someone will explain to me but I see constitutions mentioned. It there any evidence to suggest the the US fairs any worse than us or has constinntional problems tht could be resolved by the introduction of a monarchy?

Can someone explain to me what they really do in political terms. I struggle with the fact that the same "Majesty" had the left wing government of the 70's and Maggie for example.

The other questions of usefullness seem to me to centre around money. Tourinsm for example is cited as being a usefull purpose, yet taking this thread as an example, I have seen one "make no difference" and no other comment - is that really representative of how useful they are in that respect? If they really are that good, perhaps we should consider letting the tourist industry pay for thier marketing - the royals apparently would be better off.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:09 PM

That was funny! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:04 PM

Or in a blender ! :-)

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:00 PM

I reckon it would be easy enough to liquidise the assets, just stick em in an auction.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 06:56 PM

John, the fallacy in your reasoning is that whatever the Queen is worth, however many millions, if it WERE in fact possible to liquidate her assets and dole the cash out to the beleaguered social services, it would only be a drop in the ocean. After a few weeks you would be back to square one. Anyway the equation really is too simplistc.

Nope, it's the old Saxon envy of the man on horseback, that's what it is.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 06:46 PM

Murray-I think it is worth bearing in mind that while the National Health service is in a state of decline, the police & education service likewise, HRH prince Charles has 3 men just to help him get dressed in a morning.The royal family between them have 6 palaces thousands of acres of land.A few years ago the queen decided she would pay income tax. How bloody generous of her! everybody else has no choice in the matter.No I am not a royalist.john


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:40 PM

All these anti monarchist diatribes can be summarized in one line. "She is rich, I'm not and it pisses me off".

Sorry people, but if the monarchy were abolished today it wouldn't put one brass farthing in your pockets, not now, not tomorrow, not ever.

And I am trying to imagine the thrill of waking up in the morning and thinking "Wow, I'm so happy, yesterday I was a subject but today I am a citizen." I am having difficulty visualizing that thrill.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:15 PM

As a Canadian, I shudder to think of the day when Charles' image is put on the money. Lets have the royals but not the funny looking ones who wish to be tampons.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Royal Family
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:11 PM

Penny - No, post 1485 some dreadful little oiks with names such as Tudor.

Incidently when Charles & Di' split, who had custody of us Welsh ??

Gareth


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