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Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.

The Shambles 31 Oct 01 - 01:51 PM
Kim C 31 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM
MMario 31 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM
weepiper 31 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM
nutty 31 Oct 01 - 02:24 PM
Fortunato 31 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM
The Shambles 01 Nov 01 - 02:36 AM
The Shambles 01 Nov 01 - 02:40 AM
masato sakurai 01 Nov 01 - 04:01 AM
masato sakurai 01 Nov 01 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,JohnB 01 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Angel 02 Nov 01 - 06:26 AM
The Shambles 03 Nov 01 - 04:17 AM
Bert 03 Nov 01 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 03 Nov 01 - 07:06 AM
MMario 03 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM
The Shambles 04 Nov 01 - 03:02 AM
BanjoRay 04 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM
Snuffy 05 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM
Uncle_DaveO 05 Nov 01 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Noreen 06 Nov 01 - 06:51 AM
LR Mole 06 Nov 01 - 08:55 AM
alanww 07 Nov 01 - 05:47 AM
Little Hawk 07 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM
Snuffy 07 Nov 01 - 05:21 PM
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Subject: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:51 PM

Is it reasonable to assume that all of these fol dum de riddle um didos, at the end of lines in songs, were just things sung when you did not have instruments to do it?


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM

That, and to fill up space. I love songs with nonsense in them. We do several. Seems like most of them (excepting sea shanties) are pre-19th century but I don't know for sure, just an observation on my part.


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: MMario
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM

I strongly suspect some of them were used the way they often are when sung nowadays - as repeating lines that the audience knew and could join in on


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

Of course it might just be that they sound good..


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: weepiper
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

'Vocables', they're called.
I find it kind of interesting comparing the different ones you get in other languages, like Scottish Gaelic tends to use lots of 'hi ho ro' and 'hil o ro bhan o' and that sort of thing. And the way you often get little bits of the line that make sense, i.e. of the structure '[nonsense] and another [same nonsense]' (see 'hi ho ro 's na ho ro eile')


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: nutty
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:24 PM

I agree with MMario .... they involved the listener in the song and also helped to establish concentration.

This was an essential tool when singing very long ballads.


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Fortunato
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM

My favorite is:

Keymo kai-mo, in the land of pharoah, pharoah,

With a rat trap polly doodle pennywinkle sally-o

Sally won't you kai-me-o

Keymo kai-mo, hayro, jayro,

Way down yonder in the land of pharoah

Sally won't you kai-me-o.


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:36 AM

I tried an experiment. Try the songs you know with these bits in them and instead of singing them, play the notes on a guitar, flute, fiddle whatever instrument you have?

I think musically a lot of the songs contain phrases that are questions. The melody phrase is incomplete to our ears without the answering phrase.

So the melody has to be taken back to enable a new musical question to be asked. It is more natuarally done instrumentally, but in the absence of these, historically or many reasons (including legal bans, it would be done by singing the line, fol de riddle tiddle dum day?


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:40 AM

Possibly also when you are singing words to, not the original or a different tune and the words won't fit into the tune you are using?


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 04:01 AM

Some of the previous related threads are:

Lilting

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4623#25607">Mouth music

Mouth tunes

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 04:03 AM

Mouth music

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM

I seem to remember something about censorship being one reason for the Di di diddle i diddle i dum's. JohnB


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,Angel
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:26 AM

I posted a thread on this topic q while back - "Diddle-e-i-di-di - WHY?" - http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=27262&messages=19 (can't do blue clicky)


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 04:17 AM

'Got a black cat bone', Dum diddle o do.

Not quite the same, is it?


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Bert
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 04:53 AM

The truth is that "Tooralie Ooralie Ay" is Gaelic for "I've forgotten the words" and "Fol de riddle I do" is Old English and means the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 07:06 AM

The shanty chorus "John kanakanaka tooray ay" is actually French:

Jean qui n'a qu'un nacre, tous raillaient

that is

Jean who has only one "mother-of-pearl", everybody was jeering.

At least, in my French dictionary, that's the only meaning given for "nacre".


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: MMario
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM

I thought the various john Kanaka-naka's were derived from pidginezed Hawaiian?


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 03:02 AM

As a Hawaiian pidgeon, can you please you leave my Kanaka's out of this?


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: BanjoRay
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM

Maybe the English "Nacker" or "Knacker" for testicle comes from the French "Nacre"?

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

John kanaka-naka tu-lai-ay


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:19 PM

Pidgin, not pigeon or Pidgeon.


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:51 AM

Perhaps, Ray- but what would be the connection? :0)

Shambles, I thought it was funny anyway...


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: LR Mole
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:55 AM

"Turn, turn, to the wind and the rain." I notice that there are a number of people who just don't feel comfortable joining in. Interesting when so many sining commercials are not only nonsensical but greedy (see how many people can finish the "Two all-beef patties, lettuce,sauce, etc.) Now there's the solution: sell whack-fol space to advertisers!


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: alanww
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:47 AM

Stan Hugill (p211) says "Kanaka" means "Hawaiian" but he doesn't say what the refrain "tulai-e" meant. (I have used his italics, but his "e" has an accent over it, which I don't know how to reproduce.)

I thought I heard the old man say ...!
Alan


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM

It's a handy device that works great in certain songs, so why not use it?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:21 PM

Alan you type an ampersand (&)then eacute then a semi-colon with no spaces and you get é.

tulai-é.


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