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BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?

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GUEST,BigDaddy 27 Oct 01 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Boab 26 Oct 01 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 26 Oct 01 - 03:24 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM
John MacKenzie 25 Oct 01 - 04:02 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 25 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 10:49 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM
Cllr 25 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 25 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM
Cllr 25 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 07:51 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 07:47 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 25 Oct 01 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 25 Oct 01 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 01 - 03:01 AM
Gareth 24 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM
Cllr 24 Oct 01 - 06:30 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 24 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM
John MacKenzie 24 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 24 Oct 01 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 24 Oct 01 - 11:30 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 24 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 24 Oct 01 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 24 Oct 01 - 04:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM
Ebbie 23 Oct 01 - 01:23 PM
Jon Freeman 23 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 23 Oct 01 - 11:59 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 23 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 23 Oct 01 - 05:03 AM
Cllr 22 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 01 - 07:31 PM
Gareth 22 Oct 01 - 07:00 PM
Cllr 22 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 22 Oct 01 - 04:59 PM
Cllr 22 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM
Paul from Hull 22 Oct 01 - 04:19 PM
Jon Freeman 22 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM
Cllr 22 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM
Gareth 22 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Oct 01 - 01:52 PM
Cllr 22 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 22 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM
Cllr 22 Oct 01 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Stavanger Bill 22 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM
AliUK 21 Oct 01 - 10:36 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:00 AM

In countries where we have an opportunity to self-govern, there seem to be a couple of problems: One is that too many voters become disillusioned and stop voting, and the second is a touchy subject...in any country where a large number of voters are possibly not intelligent enough to make a reasonable choice, should we not find a better way to select leaders? The above prolonged rant against Margaret Thatcher could be matched with similar diatribes against a number of elected officials throughout history and from a variety of countries. In the U. S. it's worth remembering that at the height of the war in Vietnam and subsequent illegal activity by Richard Nixon, he was re-elected. I don't have the answers, but if we are to begin choosing the best to represent us, it seems that something has to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:40 AM

Now, now, guys and Gals---the lady showed a fine environmental example by being photographed sticking yon pointy thing through [perfectly biodegradable] scraps of paper in Hyde Park. My general comment?----ugh!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:24 AM

Hi Tom,

The name doesn't ring any bells, but I'll ask around.

Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM

I know it's was getting a wee bit out of hand mostly on my part.

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:02 PM

Well sorted lads.

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:16 PM

Thank you Bill,

Oh by the way there's one thing that I want to know do you know a man called Bill Black, he worked in Stavnger during the 80's with a company called MAPEL he was with the oil and gas Industry out there. If you do then can you tell him that a man called Jim Hamilton was asking for him.

Let's just agree to disagree eh! Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM

Hi Scotland the trained,

All cleared up, apology accepted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:49 AM

What I ment to say there was I've worked on GOVERNMENT were as yourself haven't so how can you say that I'm talking rubbish when you have never worked on or been a part of a government funded training scheme were al you get is an extra ten pounds on top of your dole money and that's it. You've never done as far as I can see. And then you say that I talking rubbish. I'm sorry for calling one tory piece of shit. However until you have had exprence of a training for work scheme or a new deal then how can say that person is talking rubbish. I hope that clears it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM

You said that the People of Brtian voted for the Tories from 1979-1997

Most of the people of Scotland and Wales didn't niether did the people of the North of England.

These people voted for a Labour government and not a tory one. I don't like being called a liar, I might get my facts worng here and there but to say that I was talking rubbish when you don't even know me. That's why I said all those things about you. You make me out to be a loony when I'm not I found out that the things that I was writting about was rubbish. As I have said I'm sorry for calling you that. I just don't being called a lair that's all. I mean you don't even know what I have exprenced with Government trainging schemes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM

I was just so angry at saying that I was talking rubbish,

And you still have told me about Training for work schemes like companies called Best or Gallowy, and all other GOVERNMENT training schemes that are called Training for work or new deal.

what about them. And I'm sorry that I called you one Tory peice of Shit. As for the next election I think that The new labour party will get in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM

I agree with Bill, well said. Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM

Hello "Scotland the trained",

Quote: I see Bill that you work in Norway to deal with the oil and Gas industry, why is that I thought you said that under Margaret Thatcher's government that the were jobs a plenty here in Scotland Question: Having gone through the text of my submissions to this thread please enlighten me as to where and when I make any reference to their being "jobs aplenty here in Scotland".

Quote: "...so why did you not stay in Scotland with the oil industry instead of going to Norway where I believe that it's more expencive over there than it it's over here."

Comment: You have made an assumption based purely on the fact that I am currently working in Norway. In actual fact for most of the time between 1979 and 1996 I did work in the UK mainly in Scotland. Agreed it is more expensive but the people generally are open minded, tolerant and friendly.

Quote: "And you still haven't answer the question about your exprences on the training schemes"

Answer: I work basically as a consultant, contracted in to do work within my specialisation on a project by project basis, I have been involved in this industry since 1972. Throughout that period I have undertaken many training courses - all self financed as neither the government or the companies would foot the bill. Some of these courses were compulsory arising from changes to regulations governing safety legislation, others were courses covering topics and skills that I could see would be useful to me. During the period I mentioned above (1979 to 1996) I only had to sign on once - and was told that I was entitled to nothing - and that was what I got.

Quote: "And I'm the one who is talking rubbish"

Opinion: Based on what you have written IMO yes.

Quote: "And if the Tories were so popular as the way that you put it over why in Scotland and Wales in the 1997 election was there no Scottish or Welsh tories sent to Westminster"

Answer: I would have thought that the answer to this was fairly obvious - because an insufficient number of people voted for conservative/unionist candidates standing for election in Scottish and Welsh seats.

Quote: "...and in the last election only one Tory MP from Scotland was went to Wesminster".

Answer: Obviously because sufficient people voted to return that candidate as their Member of Parliament. But if they got none in 1997 and one in the last election does that mean they've turned the corner - how many at the next election??

Quote: "If they are so popular as you say they are"

Question: Again I have been through the text of my submissions to this thread - where do I say that they were popular? What I did say was that between the years 1979 and 1997 the people of the United Kingdom elected successive Conservative Governments.

I hope that the above answers your questions.

Additionally for your information I would like to make the following comment:

Quote: "You are one tory peice of shit."

Comment: To my certain knowledge I have never been active on behalf of any political party in my life. If you consider the above quote as a reasonable means of taking part in a discussion - I pity you


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

I note that I'm being called a flamer (more like troll if you want to be pedantic) and yet all I was doing was agreeing with a previous post. If my post provokes a response its more likley to be that as a tory my very existence is an affront to certain people. Thats not my problem, I don't have a problem with people having differing views to my own. I do have a problem with people using such viturprative language that has been used in this thread. It gets in the way of sensible discussion and brings it down to personalities in a very antagonistic way. On the folk scene many people have views slightly more left wing than my own 8-) but I have had many relaxed political discussions in folk clubs and at festivals. Respecting other people views is not the same as agreeing with them as some of the more tolerent leftwing posters on mudcat have shown.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:51 AM

I see Bill that you work in Norway to deal with the oil and Gas industry, why is that I thought you said that under Margaret Thatcher's government that the were jobs a plenty here in Scotland and so why did you not stay in Scotland with the oil industry instead of going to Norway where I believe that it's more expencive over there than it it's over here. And you still haven't answer the question about your exprences on the training schemes . And I'm the one who is talking rubbish. And if the Tories were so popular as the way that you put it over why in Scotland and Wales in the 1997 election was there no Scottish or Welsh tories sent to Westminster and in the last election only one Tory MP from Scotland was went to Wesminster. If they are so popular as you say they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:47 AM

I see Bill that you work in Norway to deal with the oil and Gas industry, why is that I thought you said that under Margaret Thatcher's government that the were jobs a plenty here in Scotland and so why did you not stay in Scotland with the oil industry instead of going to Norway where I believe that it's more expencive over there than it it's over here. And you still haven't answer the question about your exprences on the training schemes . And I'm the one who is talking rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:18 AM

Maybe you thaought it was funny was becasue you're a tory The reason I might be the one of the most trained person in Britian is because of not only myself but thousands of others have also been on training schemes.

Now to get a job you've either have to WORKED with that company or had exprenice in the job it's self (Not trained) or have a driving licsense.

Of which I have neither, now a days bosses aren't intsrested that you have got training schemes ie scotvecs or city and guilds coming out of your ears but can you do the job. What happens is that you go on a scheme for a year and after that year all you get is a certific and told that you have to sign on at the job centre for six months. While on the training scheme you're still unemployed because you are told to be looking out for a job.

And the only jobs that are out there as I have said ones that the employers are looking for are the ones with job exprinces or if you have a driving lisense. I hope that this explains it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:09 AM

Hi Gareth,

Spot on!!! Particularly your comments re the Oil and Gas Industry. From the ID you can probably see that I work over in Norway, where they handled their oil and gas revenue in a much better way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:01 AM

Pity also the miners of Cornwall, surely the most neglected of all counties. No new investment there when the laast mine closed. St Just compares in desolation to any pit town.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM

I must confess, (though I think Cllr is acting as a flamer here) I thought Bill of Stavenger had hit the target well.

There were alternatives, they were called retraining and reinvestment.

There was an old toast in the South Wales Miners Federation (the Fed), part of the NUM, " To the day the last man left the last Pit on the last shift !" - Unfortunatley it came true (bar Tower).

The alternative was to provide jobs, and the education and retraining neccessary, to support these jobs. This was not done.

Personally I spent most of my time between 1990 and 1997 (after being made redundant for the first time) on temporary contracts, yes and ducking and weaving with "black income" - like sorting out VAT returns for cash or beer in hand, and signing on (Registering as unemployed for £40 odd pounds a week)

I can recall getting on a Computer training course - actually I knew Microsoft Office better than the instructor - but at least it gave me a bit of paper saying that I was trained in Microshite.

What anoys me is that the gift of the income from North Sea Gas and Oil was wasted, squandered, in providing Tax Cuts to those who did not need the money - when it should have been spent on industrial reinvestment and education.

Max Boyce summed it up :-

" I know a local magistrate
She's got a job for me,
Though it's only pressing buttons,
In a local factory
We get Coffee breaks and Coffee breaks,
And the coffee it is free,
And I know that bloody Anthracite
Has seen the last of me."

CHR

"Cos it's hard, Diew It's hard,
Harder than you will ever know,
And if ham was underground,
Would it be Ten bob a pound ?
And the Pit Head baths are a supermarket now !."

Sorry, it's late, and I've got to drive to Swansea ( Abertawe)for an 8 am start in the Morning - If ny Catter wants the full text of that song ask and I will post it as A seperate thread.

Gareth

( TRL: Diew = God, Anthracite a very hard and dusty furnace coal mined in the West of South Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 06:30 PM

I thought it was funny

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

very funny ha ha ha


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

Bulls-eye Bill!!, I think we have now found the difference between the unemployed, and the unemployable!!

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:13 PM

Yes I am Scotland forever, and the reson why I keep changing my ID is nothing to do with you,

And to say that I write rubbish while you write Tory propagander. As i said these Traininging schemes just don't work. I'm not the only one that says that, there are thousands of others who say the same thing as me. Have you ever been on one of these schemes? If not then how can you say that I'm writting rubbish. You are one tory peice of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:30 AM

Hello there "Scotlandmyhomeland" - are you any relation to "Scotlandforever"??? Or do you just change the ID to repeat the same rubbish???

Are you honestly trying to tell me that: 1. Only the rich benefitted from the reduction in the basic rate of tax. 2. Government deregulation did not create a single job. 3. That foreign investment did not create a single job. 4. That there were 3 million people unemployed from the spring of 1979 until 1997, then all of a sudden they're all put back in work by Tony.

If you honestly believe that that is the case then by all means continue to delude yourself - you will not convince anyone else.

As to how many people said that they would leave the country if Tony Blair got into power - I haven't got a clue. But to hazard a guess - not many as New Labour have not deviated from the line to any great extent.

By the way "Scotlandmyhomeland"/"Scotlandforever"/"Scotlandthebrave" - everybody has to look for a job when they leave school. You complain about "her government's 'Job Creation Scheme" that you say you have been on for 20 years - paid you £10 over what you would have got otherwise and by now you must be the comprehensively trained man in the British Isles. Still it does produce an ID for your next change - how about "Scotlandthetrained".


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM

The ' Job creation' that her govenment brought foward was that when you went onto these 'training schemes' what happened was that the Job Centre placed you on this thing, and then you were to train for work. However you were still unemployed because you still had to look for a job. All you get is an exrta ten pounds on top of your benifits 'Dole money' and that's all. I have been on these 'Job Creation' things since I left school and that was 2o years ago. So much for her government's 'Job Creation scheme'


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:52 AM

Job Creaction, you talk about, well in the case how come during her time as prime minister there was over 3 million people unemployed, the highest ever, The reason why she lowered the tax was so that as I say that rich can get richer.

How many people said that if Tony Blair got in to number ten then they would leave the country because they didn't want to pay the high rate of income tax that they should be paying in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:30 AM

Hi Jon, Simple economics caused the demise of the coal and steel industries. My two comments are connected, but only in as much that Margaret Thatchers government recognised the lunacy in trying to keep those industries going while our competitors were free to buy raw materials at the going rate. Other national governments did try to subsidise and protect their heavy industries, they failed and adopted the policies pursued by the UK government to recoup the situation, because they had seen that it could be done. For Margaret Thatchers government to have done anything different would have been equivalent to someone saying, "Why pay £10 for something when I can get it for £25".

Hi there SF, The government of the United Kingdom IS elected by the people of Great Britain - which includes the populations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As to some of your other points: Did her government reduce the basic rate of taxation for the entire population of Great Britain? Yes Did her government reduce regulation to encourage and promote the growth of new industries? Yes (Job creation) Did her government act in such a way as to encourage foreign investment in this country? Yes (Job creation)

And by all means let us look what has happened since then. Britains economy is one of the healthiest in Europe, our rate of inflation has been consistantly lower than that experienced during the pre-Thatcher years. The level of unemployment in the UK is less than that of most European countries. Are you trying to tell me that all this came to pass post 1997? - Get real.

From what you say, I get the impression that should the people of Scotland get the government you would like to see, they would undertake the following: Re-establish the Scottish Steel and Coal-mining industries as state owned enterprises. Pour millions into redevelopment of the Clyde ship-yards (after all they could use all that steel you are going to produce at a price per ton that no-one in their right minds would pay for. At the same time better make those ships coal fired.) Re-introduce free milk in schools. Enshrine in Scottish Law that anybody who has the temerity to actually start a business and who succeeds in developing it must, under no circumstance, be financially rewarded for it irrespective of how much his endevours benefit his community. Enforce a tax system that incorporates a super tax bracket of say 82% (The Fat Cats of industry and all those rich people will be banging on the door to be let in to pay that - SNP prospective candidate for Scotlands first President Sir Sean Connery found paying 40% too much!! and disappeared into tax exile, where from rigours of advertising Japanese whisky and playing golf, gave his opinions as to why Scotland should vote SNP.)

One thing I have found out during this correspondence - it is very easy to knock something in the light of 20 x 20 hindsight. Another thing that I have noticed is that if you go through the correspondence attached to this thread nowhere will you find any of Mrs T's detractors propose what she could have done differently - even with 20 x 20 hindsight - not surprising neither can Tony Blair and New Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

"Here in Scotland The Labour party got the most votes and the same with Wales and also Northern Ireland." Not in Northern Ireland, since the Labour v Tory shenanigans aren't very relevant there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:23 PM

And now for a bit of trolling: (I admit that I'm curious about the response)

"In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man--if you want anything done, ask a woman." -Margaret Thatcher-

Ebbiewardingoffblows


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM

Stavanger Bill wrote:

"[..] many countries within Europe subsequently adopted similar policies."

He later wrote:

"Take a look at what has subsequently happened to the coal and steel industries within Europe - they have gone exactly the same way."

I don't suppose the 2 could be connected in any way?

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:59 AM

Her government made the rich richer and the poor poor,

Her government closed down the steel plants and the most of the mines of Britian, which made millions unemployed. Did her government raise the tax on the rich? no! Did her government help to encourage the fat cats of industry? yes. And look what has happened since then. This will be my last message you'll be gald to hear


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM

It wasn't the people of britain that kept putting her there at number 10, most of the people of Scotland and Wales never. It was only the Tory voters of England that put her there. Here in Scotland The Labour party got the most votes and the same with Wales and also Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 05:03 AM

In reply to Scotland Forever commenting on what was ommitted in my text, I would like to draw attention to the fourth paragraph of my note.

My stated opinion was that she was right for her time. It is a social, economic and political fact that we live in constantly changing times. What is required from the government of any country is the leadership and integrity, upon receipt of best available advice, to analyse and anticipate what changes are foreseen and provide direction for the good of the country.

To take issue with some of SF's specifics:

1. I think from reading through the messages on this thread that it has been clearly established that Margaret Thatcher did not start the Falklands War - In fact there is, somewhere in the correspondence, an admission of that by one of her detractors.

2. World-wide, the steel and coal industries were already in trouble - not just in Scotland and Wales. At the time these industries were costing the british tax payer an absolute fortune in subsidies to produce extremely expensive steel and coal that nobody wanted. The situation was simply just not sustainable. Take a look at what has subsequently happened to the coal and steel industries within Europe - they have gone exactly the same way. The demise of these traditional heavy industries was due to world economic factors - not by any dark desire of Margaret Thatcher or the Conservative Party.

3. That she personally made three million people unemployed is a ridiculous statement. Admittedly, what she could have done would have been to increase the subsidies and government regulation to keep failing industries afloat. But this she could only have done to the greater detriment of the country and those measures would not have staved off the inevitable collapse of those industries. Faced with the facts, she did what was necessary. That is leadership and requires courage and integrity. In doing so she kept British Industry competitive, freed it from over regulation and created an industrial/economic climate that encouraged international confidence to the extent that foreign investment in Britain was greater than in any other European country.

4. The Health Service in the UK has always suffered at the hands of extremely well intentioned governments - not just the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher. Promises of throwing billions at it are made by every party seeking to be elected, this money is usually swallowed up on additional administrative cost resulting from government interference.

5. As for stopping free milk, she certainly did, as a cost cutting measure, while acting as a junior minister in the Department of Education under Edward Heath. To reduce costs she could have cut books or teachers but she chose milk. I'm fairly certain that any subsequent data relating to the general health of the children of Great Britain will focus more on the amount of Irn-Bru and Coke consumed than in the lack of free milk.

In conclusion, I would comment to SF, making the assumption that Scotland Forever indicates leanings towards the SNP, that should the SNP ever gain the majority in the Scottish Parliament, that whatever leadership transpires, it governs with a global perspective and does not run Scotland like a parochial parish council - I say that as a Scot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM

While I might disaprove of some of the terminology erm yes Altogether now "Thiiings caaan only get betteer"

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:31 PM

I just get fed up with people saying that most people voted for Margaret Thatcher, when it's not true. Just as I'm sure Cllr gets fed up with people saying that most people voted for Tony Blair when that's not true either.

By the European nonsense what I really mean is that one way or another its going to be settled pretty soon with a referendum, so it's a short term issue, even though it has longterm consequences. And aside from that there really doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between the two parties at this stage.

I'd put Labour's defeat in 75 down to a lot of people being fed up with a shambolic Labour government which happened in fact to be pretty right wing. The same way that in 97 a lot of people turned against shambolic Tory government. In both cases the central issue was surely a feeling that these people were a load of wallies, let's try the other lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:00 PM

Sorry Cllr - I count resist this - A quote from your earlier post.

Rise again, Rise again, That her name not be lost to the knowledge of men, and those that loved her best and who were with her to the end will see the Margaret Hilda Thatcher Rise Again

Didn't you mean ---

But we talked of her all winter, some days around the clock, For she's worth a quarter million, afloat and at the dock. And with every jar that hit the bar, we swore we would remain And make the Margaret Hilda Thatcher rise again

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM

Mr McGrath, Your first paragraph seems to be aimed a the electoral system rather than at thatcher, IMHO I abhore proportional represention. (if you want to talk about that lets start another thread).

The first part of your second paragraph conveniantly ignores the state of the country at the time It was accepted by the electorate that the unions were tearing the country apart and thats why she got voted in (yes I do know I'm simplfying the situation but so are you)From a historical perspective one could say that overwhelming failure of the labour goverments to control the unions led to thatcherism.

As for the second part, your view is a valid one from your political stance, I presume you lower the same charges at the door at Kinnock, Smith and Blair during Labour's transitional period and one might equally say that the modernisation of the Labour Party to become New Labour and the reaction to this process from my party could also lead to it's eventual downfall (especially if we do not regain the centre ground.) The liberals got stuffed in the thirties 'cos (economics aside) the labour party took half it's policies and the tories took the other half effectivly marginalising them.

As for your comment about Europe being nonsense I presume you mean the political posturing and not the issues, in which case I agree with you that it's nonsense. I also agree with you that is silly to have two conservative parties which is why I am fighting to make sure that we are the only tories.

There can be only one...

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM

Thatcher was never supported by a majority of those who voted in the country. Not even in England. In Scotland and Wales only a tiny proportion of people voted for her.

The party which put her at its head tore the country apart. It betrayed all its better traditions in the search for power. It is very likely that her longterm legacy will turn out to be the destruction of that party as an effective political force, with Tony Blair's party replacing it as the new home of the conservative tradition in English politics.

Once the European nonsense is out of the way after a referendum (whichever way it goes) I just cannot see what the point would be of having two conservative parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:59 PM

Not a lot of people liked her did they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM

Jon I don't actually disagree with you and your point does not really contradict my statement. I wasn't speaking on behalf of the conservative electorate or the conservative party. Don't forget Thatcher did recieve the the majority of the votes ( I was in the House of Commons at the time) but because the amount was not high enough, by four votes, it would then go then go to a second round and that was when Maggie resigned. Certainly there was support for her within the House of Commons and it was very strong at the grass roots of the party and for that matter in the conservative electorate who were not party members. The "People" did not get the chance to depose her and with the selection of John Major the conservatives won another election.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:19 PM

Sorry, Councillor, but do think she was widely despised, & still is.... & I'm not a Socialist, or a Marxist, a Communist or Anarcho-Syndicalist.

In policy terms you maybe cant really see the damage she did, but do you think its healthy for a Party Leader, particularly one in Govt. to have that much of a 'grip of fear' on her own Cabinet/Party/Govt./Nation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

Cllr, the conservative party gave a clear statment that they knew she had lost popularity with the majority of the public when she was replaced by John Major. These same people may have still respected Thatcher and believed it what she stood for which of course would make matters worse - a sort of double std - "We believe in you Maggie but we want to stay in power!"

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM

Gareth May be very few Socialists/Marxists/Communist/Anarcho-Syndicalists will... but really, you are making a huge generalisation Or are you saying you speak for paid up members of the conservative party? Are you including people out side the UK.? or shall we have a new thread BS Sweeping statements. Just 'cos you would like it to be like that doesn't make it so. That or you would have to qualify the statement so far to make it meaningless.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

The people propose and the people depose.

Very few people will regret the passing of TBW and all she stood for

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:52 PM

SF I bet that Tony Blair or any other politician for that matter wishes that they had half the power that you attribute to Maggie, after all she didn't do it alone, so why put all the blame on her?

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

Dear SF, contary to your views and opinions She kept winning elections and it was the people of britain who put her there.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

Really she did all that, So she was Britain's lonngest serving prime minister, it's funny how you never mentioned that during her reign of power, the mines, the steel works here in Scotland and Wales were closed down, she imposed an unfair tax on the people (Poll Tax), she made about 3 million people unemployed, and she started a war over the Falklands that wasn't really needed. It's strange how you missed all that out, and then she put the mentally handicaped out on the street, she stopped children getting free milk at school while she was minister in the Edward Heath Government, the woman was power mad. She never listened to the people who lives in Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:18 AM

Thank you Bill for your commentary, I couldn't agree with you more.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM

Having read through the above, I was amazed by some of the comments and had to ask myself, where some of the contributors were during the "Thatcher Years". Sapper gave an extremely accurate picture of what state Britain was in immediately prior to the election in 1979.

Facts are that she was right for her time and still remains Britains longest serving prime minister, so the british electorate must have thought she wasn't doing too badly. Very little, in terms of principle or practice, of what her government introduced has been reversed and many countries within Europe subsequently adopted similar policies.

The Thatcher era, internationally, saw the downfall of Soviet Russia and an end to the cold war. The United States of America had two strong and determined Presidents during this period and in Thatcher they had an ally on whom they could depend. From the Soviet perspective they saw leaders of the UK and USA who possessed determination and will power in spades.

As a leader, when required to take tough decisions, she did so without stint or compromise and in doing so exercised a great deal of integrity. You also have to remember what the alternative would have been - Neil Kinnock!! Who has subsequently moved onwards and upwards (financially) to become one of Europe's Commissioners (A body comprising the unelected/unelectable members of european political parties)who tell the EU what to do and when to do it.

Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister throughout a period of remarkable change. Judging by the current state of the UK, I do not believe she did so badly and would not be at all surprised to hear of her being described in the future as one of Great Britain's most effective Prime Ministers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:36 PM

Fiolar: I know she was booted out...or was she? As you say, she decided to stand down as a consequence of her appraisal of the popular sentiment at the time. I was at the party we had after she announced her decision( there was some fetching toilet paper with her image on it in the bog. Suffice it to say that it was all used up during the festivities). But still, a tory primeminister was elected the next time round, due to the tactical voting system that was not as prevelent then as it was at the last General Election. Here in Brazil it is illeagle not to vote. If you do not vote, you lose many privilages as a citizen. I found this at first ( having dual nationality I also vote here) to be cack handed democracy, but on reflection, in a country that is rife with corruption and illiteracy, this is one sure way to get a broad band of the population out to the voting stations ( it is all computerised as well). It is not a perfect system ( I could spend hours trying to explain the Brazilian party system and the alliances that are forged to try to get into power), but it ensures that everybodys right to a vote is enforced. I thought long and hard about the system of tactical voting and I firmly believe that it is misguided, that is why Thatch the Snatch stayed in power. That is why politics in the UK is in the sorry, apathetic state it is in now. I voted in the last UK election ( I voted Labour) as I happened to be in London at the time ( another loooong story)and was saddened by the attitude of British voters. Thank God Haig did not get in on the tactical vote.


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