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National I.D. Card

Troll 23 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM
SINSULL 23 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM
Big Mick 23 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM
CarolC 23 Sep 01 - 11:59 PM
catspaw49 24 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM
Joe Offer 24 Sep 01 - 12:11 AM
Liz the Squeak 24 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 01 - 12:52 AM
Amos 24 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM
catspaw49 24 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM
mooman 24 Sep 01 - 03:33 AM
Haruo 24 Sep 01 - 03:53 AM
Murray MacLeod 24 Sep 01 - 04:11 AM
MudGuard 24 Sep 01 - 04:21 AM
Banjer 24 Sep 01 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Greg F. 24 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 09:06 AM
Mrrzy 24 Sep 01 - 09:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Doc Rock 24 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM
Wolfgang 24 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM
Arnie 24 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM
MudGuard 24 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM
Skeptic 24 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM
Cllr 24 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Cllr 24 Sep 01 - 11:06 AM
Donuel 24 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM
Kim C 24 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM
KingBrilliant 24 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM
Donuel 24 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM
RichM 24 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM
jaze 25 Sep 01 - 06:27 AM
Troll 25 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM
RWilhelm 25 Sep 01 - 10:19 AM
Kim C 25 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Irish Sergeant 25 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM
John MacKenzie 25 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM
Mac Tattie 25 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Melani 25 Sep 01 - 02:50 PM
Kim C 25 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM
Penny S. 25 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,petr 25 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM
VoxFox 25 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM
Gareth 25 Sep 01 - 06:48 PM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM
Melani 26 Sep 01 - 01:46 AM
Amos 26 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM
Auxiris 26 Sep 01 - 03:26 AM
Crazy Eddie 26 Sep 01 - 03:38 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 26 Sep 01 - 04:13 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 26 Sep 01 - 04:16 AM
Bert 26 Sep 01 - 05:16 AM
mooman 26 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM
mooman 26 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM
catspaw49 26 Sep 01 - 08:08 AM
MudGuard 26 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Greg F. 26 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM
Harold W 26 Sep 01 - 07:50 PM
GUEST 27 Sep 01 - 02:51 AM
mooman 27 Sep 01 - 03:19 AM
CarolC 27 Sep 01 - 03:28 AM
Paul Mitchell 27 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 27 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM
Troll 27 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM
Murray MacLeod 27 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM
CarolC 28 Sep 01 - 01:05 AM
CarolC 28 Sep 01 - 01:08 AM
Troll 28 Sep 01 - 01:59 AM
DougR 28 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM
Murray MacLeod 28 Sep 01 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 28 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM
The Walrus at work 28 Sep 01 - 12:24 PM
Murray MacLeod 28 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM
jaze 29 Sep 01 - 09:15 AM
DougR 29 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM
GUEST 29 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM
toadfrog 29 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM
DougR 29 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM
Skeptic 29 Sep 01 - 07:43 PM
Amos 30 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM
GUEST 30 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM
lady penelope 30 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM
The Walrus 30 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM
Skeptic 30 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM
toadfrog 30 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM
DougR 30 Sep 01 - 06:48 PM
MudGuard 01 Oct 01 - 01:25 AM
GUEST,Mikey Joe 01 Oct 01 - 08:14 AM
The Walrus at work 01 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Genie 02 Oct 01 - 04:11 AM
Troll 02 Oct 01 - 08:38 AM
Jeep man 02 Oct 01 - 06:43 PM
DougR 02 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM
Skeptic 02 Oct 01 - 10:33 PM
Tone d' F 03 Oct 01 - 02:29 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 03 Oct 01 - 08:45 AM
Troll 03 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner ( at work) 03 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM
DougR 03 Oct 01 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,Genie 04 Oct 01 - 01:34 AM
DougR 04 Oct 01 - 07:03 PM
Celtic Soul 04 Oct 01 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,Genie 06 Oct 01 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Genie 06 Oct 01 - 03:32 AM
DougR 06 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM
JohnInKansas 06 Oct 01 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Genie 06 Oct 01 - 11:05 PM
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Subject: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

The news states that President Bush is considering implementation of a Notional I.D.Card. While he is not in favor of it, he is nevertheless considering it as is Tony Blair.
Comments?

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

And the INS is considering tracking aliens who are legally in the country on temporary visas. Up 'til now, they haven't kept track of them even to make sure they leave.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

As I have always said. The Bill of Rights is usually the first victim in these events. Hey George, how about we just start funding INS and Customs in an appropriate way so they can enforce the laws on the books already? Oh, .... wait.......we spent the money on the feckin' tax refund.

Dumb idea.

Mick


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:59 PM

I what ways would the national ID card differ from Social Security cards and other currently used forms of identification?

Are there any democraticly governed nations that currently use national ID cards?


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM

What the hell is the point? I live in a state with "copy proof, holographic imaged" Driver's Licenses and they get copies all the time. I fail to see how this would do anything but possibly slow them down just a tiny bit and set up more muggings.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:11 AM

Can I buy gas with it? Can I use it at the library? Will it allow me to drive? Will it get me into Sam's Club and get me a discount at Safeway? Can I wear it on a chain on my neck to get into "privileged" areas?
We have so many forms of identification to carry nowadays. Wouldn't if be a relief to have just one form of identification, something that could be linked to a fingerprint or eye scan or PIN for important things.
If I could carry just one card, I would be very pleased....

-Joe Fatwallet-


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

Just one step closer to barcoding babies on the backs of their hands.... sure would make life a bit easier.... and my trip to work less fraught. At present, if I pay for a season ticket with a card, I use 4 different cards to get me onto a train and into my office. If I ride in, it's 5 - cards to get me petrol (gas), door passes, car park passes, ID for work, so on and so on.....

If issued in a sensitive way, National ID's could be very useful. If an insensitive operator is selected (in the grand tradition of 'best value' = most work for least money), then it could be the start of one of the most oppressive systems since the Reichcarte.

LTS


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:52 AM

No shit...how many forms of ID do I need? I got a passport, a driver's license, the ID badge for work, an MMD, social security card...hell my fecking wallet has more cards in it than it does money...and I agree with Mick...Why not use the money to enforce the laws on the book...but then what the hell do I know...I'm just a poor socialist...who is afraid I might be carted off someday...

amergin


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM

The right to privacy is established in American law but it is not explicit in the Bill of Rights, aside from the 4th Amendment's "secure in effects and possessions, etc". A national ID card means that your actions and whereabouts are not private, or at least not if a government agent asks.

On the other hand, a driver's license is just as much a tracking device -- any competent investigator can find out your Social Security umber from your DMV record, and thence 'most anything else.

But a state system is one thing; a Federal system is something altogether else. Not sure I like it at all, at all. It seems to invert the power flow from individuals to a Federal government and turn it the other way, as though without an artifact provided by the Federal Government your personhood is suspect. Nasty bit of business, with possible long-range harmful effects.

I say to hell with that idea.

Amos


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM

Once again, I ask, what would be the point? How would this aid the terrorist problem? The guys who want anything to do with this one because they think it will be a counter terrorism device must obviously know nothing about the criminal underworld.

It's totally nuts!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 03:33 AM

In answer to CarolC's question, Belgium has national identity cards and I have to have one and carry one at all times living here.

I have never been asked to show it to anyone in 10 years so it does not appear to have adversely affected my human rights.

So no special objections from me to the idea.

mooman


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 03:53 AM

Back in the Vietnam Draft era all of us who were the right age, sex etc. had to carry our draft cards (at least, the one I still have, from ca. 1972, explicitly states that I must always carry it, no expiration date that I can discern - which is not actually why I still have it ;-). On the other hand, I was brought up to believe that internal passports were one of the several reasons we were better than the Russians, i.e. they had them, we didn't.

Liland


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:11 AM

I have to say that it has always surprised me somewhat that the INS does NOT keep track of the whereabouts of aliens.

My conditional status gets finally altered to permanent in January (I hope) but at the moment the INS haven't a clue where I am.

Murray


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:21 AM

In Germany we have ID-cards. We are in theory required to have either the ID card or a passport with us t all times - but no policeman has ever stopped me and asked for it. I only needed it within Germany for some paperwork (e.g. applying for passport and driver license).

Also it is necessary if I want to get mail which could not delivered to my home from the post office - so nobody but me can get at my mail.

I mostly use the ID card for travelling abroad as most European countries (at least all the European Union as well as Poland, Czechia, Hungary) accept it instead of a passport.

I think a driver's licence does not meet the requirements for a proof of identity as not everyone gets one (e.g. blind people).


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Banjer
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:20 AM

How many underage youngsters have 'fake ID' to get them into places they shouldn't legally be? I had one when I was in high school. It was a very official looking document. What would stop someone with Bin Laden's money from copying whatever we are issued?


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM

Be interesting to see how Charlton Heston & the "pry it from my cold, dead hands" crew of guardians of the rights of Americans react to this. I bet we don't hear a peep.

Doesn't take Bin Laden's money either. You can get an excellent fake passport on the streets of NY City for way less than $1k.

This won't make a bit of difference in safety or security- its just a sop to make people THINK they're more secure. But it sure will cost a fortune to implement & increase the size of the Federal Government significantly to implement.

Thought these Republicans wanted to eliminate useless government programs, reduce the size of government and fight crime (like gun violence) by "enforcing existing laws..." & all that pap? Guess not.....

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM

...meanwhile, get all yer gov't digs in while you can, 'cause once this Orifice of Homeland Security gets the necessary huge infusion of money it needs to spy on everyone, statements like "Screw Bush" or "the gov't sucks" just might arouse their suspicions and get you branded as a 'potential' terrorist.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:06 AM

Heres the latest on the Nat. I.D.

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUNDAY SEPT 23 2001 20:02:37 ET XXXXX

BUSH CONTEMPLATES NATIONAL ID CARD FOR ALL CITIZENS

**Exclusive**

A highly controversial option has emerged for use in fighting terrorism in the United States: A national ID card which would be issued to every citizen.

A proposal for the creation of a national ID card was presented to President Bush in recent days, top government sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

The ID card plan was included in a classified briefing outlining steps the nation can take to limit exposure to terror attacks.

Bush briefly discussed the ID card option with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, according to insiders.

MORE

"I can tell you this, the president is very reluctant [to issue a national ID card]," (italics mine) a top White House source said on Sunday. "But we must look at all options."

Just as House Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt [D-MO] says Congress should quickly move to open debate on security measures such as a national ID card.

"We are in a new world," Gephardt said. "This event will change the balance between freedom and security."

SAFETY FROM A CHIP

ORACLE Chairman and CEO Larry Ellison this weekend called for the United States to create a national identification system -- and offering to donate the software to make it possible -- free-of-charge.

"We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint digitized and embedded in the ID card," Ellison said in an interview Friday night on the evening news of KPIX-TV in San Francisco.

Blair has tentatively approved identity cards which will be introduced for the first time in Britain.

The universal identity card leads major papers in London on Monday:

'ID CARDS FOR ALL' fronts the TIMES.

'IDENTITY CARDS ON THE WAY IN FIGHT ON TERROR' headlines the MAIL.

'WE'RE ALL GOING TO HAVE ID CARDS' splashes the SUN.

MORE

Blair has opted for a voluntary scheme in issuing the card, rejecting a compulsory "on demand" card because of connotations with Nazi Germany, where lack of proper identity cards could result in instant arrest, according to reports.

However, it will be virtually impossible for anyone to live a normal life without the new ID card in England - possession of a valid card will be necessary for boarding an aircraft, buying gas, opening a bank account, starting a job or claiming government benefits.

UK. Home Secretary David Blunkett on Sunday questioned the idea of a "voluntary card".

"It would not be a great deal of help" in the fight against terrorism, Blunkett said on BBC1's On the Record.

Blunkett stressed the need to balance the fight against terrorism with the freedoms of a liberal society.

But he said that his "instincts" were that beating terror must take priority and that politicians' ability to act must not be hamstrung by an excessively legalistic approach to human rights.

New laws are expected to be rushed through the U.K.'s Parliament in coming weeks to allow for the legality of a mandatory ID card.

In a nationwide poll released Sunday, a stunning 85% of Brits would welcome a national ID card system in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the United States, with an overwhelming majority calling for the cards to be packed with information to clearly identify the holder: These include photograph (97%), date of birth (96%) eye color (92%), a finger print (85%), DNA details (75%), criminal records (74%) and religion (67%).

Stateside, U.S. Rep. George Gekas [R-PA], chairman of the House immigration subcommittee, told reporters last week that Congress could no longer reject out of hand a national ID card system for citizens.

In a survey released Wednesday by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, seven of 10 Americans favored a requirement that citizens carry a national identity card at all times. The proposal had particularly strong support from women.

ORACLE's Ellison said in the electronic age, little privacy is left anyway.

"Well, this privacy you're concerned about is largely an illusion,'' he told PIX's anchorman Hank Plante. "All you have to give up is your illusions, not any of your privacy. Right now, you can go onto the Internet and get a credit report about your neighbor and find out where your neighbor works, how much they earn and if they had a late mortgage payment and tons of other information."

Developing...

----------------------------------------------------------- Filed By Matt Drudge

So there you have it folks. Fresh off the press, as it were.
" Gif me your papers" said the monocled official. "Ve vill soon findt oudt vat you are doink here!"
Fade to black.

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:08 AM

Growing up outside the US, I always had ID; in the US I don't HAVE to carry it but I always do, what if I'm hit and run like that army guy whose kids were then left alone for 4 days with the elder (3) dealing with the younger (10 months) till the wife, also in the military, called to wonder? Basically I have fear of ending up J. Doe somewhere, I'd rather be identified. Look at Singapore, isn't it, that has the one-card-for-all? All you lose is your privacy, which is overrated anyway...


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM

"I mostly use the ID card for travelling abroad as most European countries (at least all the European Union as well as Poland, Czechia, Hungary) accept it instead of a passport. " - I'd check that, Mudguard, if I were you and I wanted to travel to the United Kingdom. I think if they asked to check your passport, an ID card wouldn't do.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Doc Rock
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM

What are the constitutional implications of this? I know of friends who have gotten away with bluntly refusing to produce I.D. when randomly asked by the Police. My impression is that such a request would violate the protection against Search and Seizure, but then again, I was naive enough to think that that so-called Safety Check roadblocks would never hold up under legal scrutiny.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM

No passport necessary for us in GB (and most other European countries) if we carry our ID card.

Actual list of countries open without passport (copied from a German page):
Andorra, Belgien, Dänemark, Finnland, Frankreich, Griechenland, Großbritannien, Irland, Italien, Kroatien, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg, Malta, Monaco, Niederlande, Norwegen, Österreich, Portugal, San Marino, Schweden, Schweiz, Slowakei, Slowenien, Spanien, Tschechische Republik, Türkei,Ungarn.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Arnie
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

"Anything made by man can be forged by man". I've read that good forgeries of Euros have already been seized before the genuine currency is even distributed! There is not much point in introducing id cards in the UK as 56 million law-abiding citizens will carry genuine ones and half a million illegals will get fake ones within the week. The only advantage will be to travel in Europe without a passport.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM

McGrath of Harlow, about a month ago (10th of August) I did my last test on that - I came to the UK just carrying the ID card. No problem leaving the country on 2nd of September, too.

Did work the same in 2000, 1999, 1998, 1986, and 1984.

MudGuard


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

I agree with Amos. For questionable benefits the possibilities for abuse are ominous.

There is already a movement in Congress to limit the use of personal information collected by businesses.

What happens when a national ID card is required to be used routinely (else why have one) and the information collected is fed into a central database. And stays there.

The temptation to use the information for anything from the war on drugs to profiling to catching underage drinking would be a powerful one. And not to be used in Court but used unofficially to figure out who to put under surveillance for various crimes having nothing to do with terroism.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Cllr
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Great! With a really good ID card (chips and all) we could bring back the poll tax!

_runs and ducks for cover_

Cllr


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Cllr
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:06 AM

Seriously, I think there is a lot to be said for a decent ID card I agree with LtS that it would have to be sensitively handled.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

If it goes forward expect the sell to be a wide spread TV campaign " IF YOU LOVE YOUR HOMELAND DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT"


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM

Most of us already have ID cards of one kind or another. Here in Tennessee, even if you don't drive, you can go to the DMV and have an ID made with your photo on it, stamped For Identification Only. I don't know if other states do that or not.

A National ID would only be in the hands of law-abiding citizens and would have little, if any, effect on criminals.

Sounds like the Mark of the Beast to me. Has anyone considered Tony Blair might be the Antichrist?


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM

Oh shite! Another thing for me to lose...

Kris (who once lost a toothbrush then found it when opening mouth to ask parents where it might be.....)


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

How will it be used??????????????? No ID card no admittence to any public event. For those with an ID but posess suspicious features will be detained up to 48 hours. # one reason for being late to work. I couldn't find my national ID card. ????????????????


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: RichM
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM

We are moving into a world where everyone will be issued an identification device at birth. For now it might be cards. Then implants.

Information to be included: Fingerprints, retinal scans, and genetic information. And maybe a tattoo-ed bar code?


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

I already have one. It's a Social Security Card, and I've had it since the 1930's. I'm often asked to show or tell someone what it is, including the Federal Government which insists that I included it on my tax form.

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: jaze
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:27 AM

Why not a gov't ID card for non-citizens.It seems it's the gov't who has dismally failed to do it's job of tracking people in this country. Our freedoms should not be taken away. Let these measures apply to those who are only here (supposedly) on a temporary basis.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM

Good idea jaze. But the illegal aliens already here don't get green cards, so why would future aliens get a Govt. I.D.?

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: RWilhelm
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:19 AM

I used to have a card that I got when I was 18 that identified me to Selective Service. It said I was supposed to carry it at all times but I think I lost it.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM

See? We already have various and sundry forms of ID. A national ID is another taxpayer expense, another thing to carry around, and another thing to lose.

I like jaze's idea of keeping up with visitors, but I'll be damned if I know how to make it work.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM

The people who would follow the procedures already do. The people who don't are the very people we're "guarding" against. I don't like the constitutional ramifications of either a national ID card or a "Homeland Security agency" Shades of 1984! Neil.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM

And once we get to rely on the ID card as a means of verification, it will make it easier for someone with a fake one to do more damage. Remember that it is not necessary to produce an exact replica in order to succeed in committing an illegal act. It is only necessary for it to be good enough to fool someone once.

Jock


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM

I am old enough, only just, to have had identity card from the tail-end of WWII. I was also brought up watching all those prisoner of war filims where documents were always forged using cut-out potatoes to stamp out official seals and dye washed out of blankets for ink. My card looked as if it had been made in this way. Bigest problem with ID cards could be that if the information that is collated when the card is first issued is wrong or altered in some way, this wrong/altered information could well be regarded as being more correct than reality. So if your date of birth is out by ten years your pension and retirement dates could be a long time coming and I hate to think what could happen if your card was stamped for the wrong sex!!!!. cheers.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:50 PM

I agree with DougR (!) and Spaw. a. We already have social security cards. b. A national ID card wouldn't have done any good in this situation, since the terrorists had entered the country legally, had no criminal records, and broke no laws until they hijacked the planes. The only clues to their plans were their actions prior to the event--but it's not illegal to enroll in flight school or research crop dusting. Only good old-fashioned John LeCarre-style espionage would have helped prevent the tragedy, so I think we'd better get over our delicacy about consorting with bad guys and get back to it. These guys came from a highly sophisticated organization that has a lot of resources and has been planning for years, and only another highly sophisticated underground network is going to be effective against them. Bombing Afghanistan will achieve nothing but killing Afghanis, which the Taliban seems to be doing pretty effectively already. It will probably happen, just because some obvious response gesture has to be made, but it ain't gonna do any real good.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Like I keep saying, we're going to have to throw fancy-dancy technology and educated tactics out the window, and get back to some good old-fashioned fisticuffs and spyin and all that.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

It's if all I want to do is go out for an old fashioned walk, or to lie on the beach or something casual like that, and I'm breaking the law if I don't carry my ID...that's not the freedom I grew up thinking we had protected in the war...

Blunkett was suggesting that a card would be the citizen's entitlement to all the things we are entitled to..benefit, pension, health and so on. We've got that sort of thing .. somewhere.

Penny


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM

re privacy. I remember 20 yrs ago I did a paper on privacy and EFTs Electronic Funds Transfer SYstem, dont delude yourself into thinking you will lose your privacy with an Id card. they can track your visa or debit card spending and for that matter any banking you do. along with cell phone telephone calls, and even library withdrawals. several of the terrorists involved in the hijacking terror all reported their passports stolen around the same time in Germany (supposedly to hide any trips to countries like Afghanistan that would have aroused suspicions) At the very least the id card system and passport system should be linked and flags should go up if people have reported stolen passports. Plenty of democratic countries have national ID cards and in the US and Canada you use cards that are not intended for that purpose like Social Security and Drivers Licence. Credit Card companies are moving toward picture cards as well. For that matter people should be opposed to video surveillance cameras in public places, but I think the benefits (catching the criminals) outweigh the cons, namely privacy loss. (ITs already there anyway, if you use credit cards) petr


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: VoxFox
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM

KimC, I agree completely we need to get us some real live James Bonds and Saints in order to defeat these monsters at the source.Being from Canada, we also have enough ID cards to weigh down the wallet so a National or International card wouldn't really be practical. Had my say. Thanks for listening, VF (new member)


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:48 PM

Hmmm! Where does a nudist carry his or her I D card ???

IN the UK we have I D chips implanted under the skin for dogs and moggies to return lost dogs etc to thier keeper, and to verify the anti rabies laws.

In principle I don't object to an I D card, but I have this rankling feeling that if you give big brother a power some jumped up jobsworth will misuse it.

I also remember the South African Pass Laws, as some one said earlier in this thread, "Don't leave your homelands without it"

Totsiens (sp) Gareth.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM

VoxFox: welcome to the madness!

Melani: careful agreeing on what Spaw and I think. We are usually 180 degrees apart on anything political, and he might object to being lumped in with moi.

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Melani
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:46 AM

DougR--I'm just astonished at having the unusual experience of agreeing with you!


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM

We would be better off, and have less expense, issuing trackable cards to non-citizens -- they are so far still outnumbered by the citizens, I think. Microtransponders could give off a trace pulse at airports, bus stations and travel junctions so that we could find out when an immigrant who was not a citizen had flown off somewhere else, rented a car, etc.

Dunno how much us eit would be in prevention but it would accelerate investigations -- and it would be the US Government provising security to its citizens, rather than harassing them. If you became a citizen you could turn in your Natl ID card.

A,


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Auxiris
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:26 AM

As a resident alien here in France, I am required to carry a "carte de séjour" (renewable every 10 years) at all times, though it is not considered to be valid unless I can also produce my passport. In the 16 years I've been living over here, I've NEVER been asked for my papers.

cheers,

Aux


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:38 AM

Er, Amos, If you were a non-citizen who was contemplating doing something a bit dodgy, would you carry that card with you (thus placing you at the scene of the crime), or just.....leave it at home, so the crome is committed, while the card supports your story that you were at home all day?


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 04:13 AM

I invite you to have a look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_1409000/1409761.stm


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 04:16 AM

And for future reference, this... just to get both sides in...


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Bert
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:16 AM

As Spaw says, we have a drivers Licence which is pretty much the same as a universal ID. The SOcial Security card is not really an ID it's just a little card that helps you remember your number. I've NEVER been asked to show it.

Earlier this year though I did have problems getting back into the US from a weekend trip to Canada.

The fact that I was driving a PA registered Car and had a PA drivers license didn't impress the customs official at all. What finally convinced her that I was OK was that I started getting indignant and told her that US citizens didn't need a passport to travel to and from Canada. I guess she thought "This guy is being a bit of an asshole - so he MUST be American"


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

Probably all of this will be rendered redundant in a very short time as DNA profiling and genomic banks continue to catch on. Your genetic code is something you cannot lose, even when you're dead.

Now there's a scary "big brother" scenario...

mooman


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM

P.S. Hope I didn't cause offence to anyone as obviously, DNA profiling has some very positive and necessary uses as can be seen currently.

I'm more worried about the potential "misuse" of the technology of the "big brother" type.

mooman


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:08 AM

"Microtransponders could give off a trace pulse at airports, bus stations and travel junctions so that we could find out when an immigrant who was not a citizen had flown off somewhere else, rented a car, etc." Amos, I think we might require better tracking of those non-citizens, but I think any system is likely to be foiled short of good old fashioned legwork.

If we go that route I think we need to modify the Emma Lazarus poem on the Statue of Liberty to Give us your tired, your poor....and we'll stick a microtransponder up their ass."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: MudGuard
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM

Issuing something to non-citizens only obviously does not work.

What would stop any non-citizens from simply not producing that something when controlled and stating to the controlling police-officers: "I am a citizen"

This discussion somehow reminds me of the time before we got our machine-readable id cards here - lots of panic that big brother will watch us permanenty, and most people did not notice that the most important part of the old id cards (little booklets) was already machine-readable - its number. With that number it is very easy to look up all the other data ...


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM

Spaw:
We could just go with Lou Reed's take on this some years back:
"Give us your tired, your poor- piss on 'em!
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says."

Expect his "New York" album is among the recently banned....

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Harold W
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:50 PM

You are not required to carry a Social Security card, nor give your number with anything NOT associated with Social Security. Some states may ask for it as part of your driver's license, but you are NOT ablidge to give it.

"BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" - George Orwell


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:51 AM

Mooman has "no special objections ... to the idea" of carrying a national ID.
Liland says he had to carry his draft card everywhere. Really? Everywhere?


DougR thinks his Social Security Card is the same thing as this national ID that's being proposed.
What Giok said. What Melani said.
ESPECIALLY, what said Penny S. said!
MacTattie has a good point, too.

Doug, I can legally refuse to give my social security number as identification for commercial transactions and most others, except when the government is involved (e.g., tax purposes). The store or VISA company may not do business with me, but I won't be arrested for such refusal!

Petr (an others), It is not the idea of a better card--with photo and thumbprint, e.g.,--that I object to. It is the idead of being required to have it with me at all times. There are plenty of times/places where to have your ID with you is, probably, to have it stolen (e.g., at the beach). The idea of having to be incumbered by a wallet at all times or of being randomly or arbitarily asked for proof of identification scares me much more than the thought of a terrorist bomb. (I live with the threat of death every time I have to drive on the freeway in heavy rain or snow with semi's and SUV's all around my little sedan.)
When we are all easily identified and tracked, we are ripe for a hostile takeover by a totalitarian government.

Petr (and others), It is not the idea of a better card (with thumbprint and photo, e.g.) that I object to. It is the idea of having to have it with me at all times. There are plenty of times/places where to have my ID with me is to invite its theft! (The beach comes to mind.)
Criminals will always be able to forge or steal IDs. And people with legitimate IDs can still commit acts of terrorism; if you're prepared to die in the process, why not?

This will not stop crime or terrorism.
It will make the theft of a piece of ID far more serious than the theft of a driver license or credit card today.

One other question:
If my ID has my thumb print, will identity thieves try to steal my thumb(s), too? Just a thought.

Genie

.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:19 AM

The idea of having to be incumbered by a wallet at all times or of being randomly or arbitarily asked for proof of identification scares me much more than the thought of a terrorist bomb.

Well Genie...many of us who live in mainland Europe HAVE to have an ID and carry it and I don't think our civil liberties have suffered as a result...certainly mine haven't. And having grown up in a city at a time when passing any postbox, being in any public building, opening numerous packages as a government employee and having personally seen the aftermath of a terrorist bomb...the Hyde Park military band bombing...the thought of a terrorist bomb does at least disturb me more than the idea of a national ID.

Respectfully,

mooman


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:28 AM

From what I heard on the news, some of the hijackers were in the US on expired visas, and they had even traveled out of and back into the US a few times on their expired visas.

One of the hijackers was stopped while driving. When asked for his driver's licence, he said he had left it at home. He was given a ticket and ordered to appear in court. Prior to the court date, he obtained a legitimate, legal, US driver's licence (while living in the US on an expired visa), and when he failed to show up for the court hearing, a bench warrant was issued against him. I don't know how much time passed between the issuance of the bench warrant, and the hijacking.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

Here in England I heard that 1 in 10 people driving cars don't have a driving licence. The police can't keep up with that one, why should they be able to keep up with a National I.D. card. A real worry is that this would give the police one more tool to use in harrasing innocent people. If you have to produce an I.D. card on request or face some sanction it gives the police all kind of easy targets. What of the homeless people I work with who have enough trouble getting I.D. together when all their possesions are stolen? What of the travellers who find their belongings so regularly searched and their I.D. "removed" by some police officers? It's another stick the few dodgy coppers will use to make themselves felt.

Paul


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Here in Tennessee they won't give you a license unless you produce a Social Security number (at least for US citizens, it may be different for resident aliens). It was a big stink a few years ago when some people who didn't have SSNs for religious reasons had to go to COURT to get it resolved.

Personally I don't think anyone should HAVE to opt into the Social Security system, but that's another story for another thread.

A national ID is just another thing to worry with. I heard today, though, that the President is against it.

Now. Maybe we can get Batman on the case or something... Jethro Bodean always wanted to be a double-naught spy. He'd be perfect because no one would ever suspect him. ;-)


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM

Heres the article as writen up by the Washington Times.

The White House has ruled out creating a national identity card system as a counterterrorism measure.
Deputy Press Secretary Scott McClellan said President Bush is not even considering the idea — though many in and out of government are, and the debate over the old issue has flared anew. There are no current legislative proposals to require such cards. And they are not requested in the package of national security measures the administration is asking Congress to pass.
Yet Rep. George W. Gekas said yesterday lawmakers are being flooded with calls from constituents who suggest the government require each person to carry standard, federally issued proof of identification. Mr. Gekas, a Pennsylvania Republican, chairs the a House subcommittee on immigration.
Prominent among those arguing for a national identity card is Larry Ellison, head of Oracle Corp., the Redwood Shores, Calif., software company. In a radio interview last week, Mr. Ellison called for creating a national identification system, and he offered to donate the tools for creating ID cards that contain a digitized thumbprint and photograph of each legal resident. The cards could be quickly read by scanners.
The public seems to favor the concept. At least it did in the days immediately after the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. Seventy percent favor issuing a national identity card as one measure "for curbing terrorism," 26 percent opposed the idea and 4 percent had no opinion, according to a nationwide telephone survey of 1,200 persons between Sept. 13 and 17. It was done by Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.
Edward Crane, founder and president of the libertarian CATO Institute, is clearly among the 26 percent. "A national identity card is not a good idea. It's contrary to the spirit of America," said Mr. Crane. "We live in a free society and our first right is a certain level of privacy. We shouldn't be forced to show our papers wherever we go." The director of the CATO Institute's criminal justice project, Tim Lynch, a lawyer, is more specific: "A national identity system is a threat to freedom because, once a system is in place, it's the equivalent to governmental prior restraint. Before an employer hires a person, he runs the card past agencies in Washington. Before a person buys a gun, or opens, or closes a bank account, there's a check with Washington — there's a ripple effect throughout society. Besides, government agencies will share the information about the cardholder. That's how our privacy is threatened."
Those favoring a national ID system accept the threat. They tend to see a national ID card as a way to uncover potential terrorists, crooks and illegal border crossers. They see it as a way of preventing credit-card and identity theft, which is a frequent practice among illegal aliens.
Dan Stein, executive director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which pushes for tight immigration regulation, earlier told The Washington Times: "In a large and highly mobile society, we need a way to prove who we are. We lose the ability to determine who's who, who is a citizen, who deserves to be here and who deserves benefits," unless we have as uniform way to identify ourselves.
The proponents of a national ID system typically argue that people must prove their identity now, using a driver's license and Social Security number; yet both are forged rather easily. Besides, they say, advances in technology have already made the identity of practically every American available, and the driver's license is practically a national identity document.
Indeed, the Arlington-based American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators confirms that 24 states and the U.S. military have adopted its recommendations for creating a standard driver's license and more are interested. The suggested cards have computer-readable stripes and bar codes that contain a digitized photo and data about the card's owner. The codes on the cards could be read by the same kind of scanners found in grocery stores.
There is no question the technology for implementing a national identity system is there. But as Mr. Gekas' spokesman, Kent Wissinger, said, "There's just no push for it."

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

I find the story of the terrorist on an expired visa getting a driver's licence extremely hard to swallow. All States require applicants for a driving licence to have a Social Security No. and this guy couldn't have had one.

Similarly, the story about one of the terrorists applying for a bank loan to buty a crop-dusting plane. I couldn't even open a bank account in my own name until I had obtained a SS no. Seems to me there are a lot of urban legends being manufactured these days.

Murray


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:05 AM

You could be right Murray, but the information came from a news source that I generally consider to be credible. I guess it would be worth checking out, but I don't know how to do it.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:08 AM

Also, I would be interested to know how they managed to re-enter the US several times on expired visas.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:59 AM

Really sloppy immigration work I'd say, Carol.

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM

Guest Genie: My point is and was, we carry identification at all times anyway. True, you may never be asked to produce your SS card, but try getting a bank loan or file your income tax without it. Perhaps, as you say, you can do commercial business without giving it, but when I have done bank business and they have asked for it, I always gave it. Maybe that was dumb, but I saw no reason not to give it to them.

And what about driver's license? I'm asked for that everytime I cash a check at some place where I'm unknown. I could refuse, of course, but if I need cash and I'm not near my bank, what the hey?

I just don't see it as that big a deal myself. Others do, okay by me.

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:05 AM

Yes, the multiple re-entry is another thing that makes me sceptical. I mean, have you ever gone through an immigration checkpoint at an airport? These guys go through your documentation with a fine tooth comb if you are a non-USA resident. Jeez, I was interrogated at Logan once for over two hours, but that's another story.

I cannot believe the expired visa/multiple re-entry story either.

Murray


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM

Murray, we just had some great fun here in TN when the legislature decided that all immigrants could go and get them a drivers license and all they had to have was a piece of mail to prove their residence. It resulted in multiple-hour waits at DMV stations, and out-of-state immigrants coming into Tennessee getting drivers licenses.

Then they decided, maybe this wasn't such a good idea, and they upped the ante a little bit, although I'm not sure immigrants have to have a SSN to get their license. I have to show mine, they don't. I'm not sure that's fair.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:24 PM

Entry in the USA on an expired visa? Well I had no trouble a few years ago.

I was coming into the US from Canada on a UK passport, I'd had an (old) entry permit stamp which, I was told at the time would be valid for the life of the passeport, on trying to get into Michigan, I was told it was invalid after all this time. Entry to the USA took about 15-20 mins and cost me less than US$ 10 (oh, and a vehicle search), but, apart from a little inconvenience, I made it into America with very little trouble. I suppose it depends what colour your passeport is, what condition international relations/security are and how busy the staff are (I certainly wouldn't like to try getting in on out of date paperwork these days).

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

I don't think that is quite trhe same thing, Walrus. You presumably had an up to date and current visa (or visa waiver) to visit Canada, so there would be no probblem.

Your situation was exactly what I faced when I went to Nova Scotia (except the other way round.) I too had to undergo a vehicle search.

But as I understand it, this guy was alleged to have made multiple re-entry through airports. Pull the other one.

Murray


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: jaze
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:15 AM

Just another thought. Our ID could be our SSN#. Students and other non-citizens would be given another # that would instantly ID them as non-citizens. Therefore, they would be easier to track and dismiss when their time was up. This IS the Gov't's responsibility. I get so tired of people in important gov't jobs not doing them at our expense. If we did our jobs that way, many of us would lose them.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM

Makes sense to me, Jaze. What we don't need is ANOTHER card to carry around.

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM

Skeptic, You're right on!

Good old J. Edgar used to keep files on me because I was a member of the NAACP and keep files on anyone he thought was connected with "subversive" organizations.

When I was in Italy in 1971 I got into fierce verbal fights with my Italian boyfriend and his friends because we were refused lodging on a trip because I would not let the innkeeper have my passport.
I had been advised by our government never to let anyone have my passport (for obvious reasons), yet I found it common practice to have hotels and pensione ask for it as a sort of security deposit.
The first time I let anyone have it for such purposes, I learned my lesson. The proprietor violated the terms we had agreed on for lodging and was going to overcharge me and the other two tourists he had (without permission) installed in the same room with me. When I refused to pay the single-room charge, he was going to keep my passport. It was only when we threatened to call in the police that he gave it back to me.
When I refused a later innkeeper, my Italian friends could not empathize with my reluctance to surrender my passport.
I wonder if this would become a common attitude here in the US if we had National ID cards.
Even now, if you refuse to give business contacts your social security number, they will often refuse to do business with you. Would that not be likely to happen with a National ID card? However, someone's stealing my driver license or SSI is not, I think, quite as disastrous as would be the theft of a card with my photo, thumbprint, eye color, and all other pertinent info all in one!

Doug R, I can think of several things women would never be able to do with ease any more if we were required to have our ID on us "at all times:"

• Go swimming in a lake, river, or ocean (if we travelled there without a car or did not think the trunk of the car was a safe place for valuables)
•go dancing wearing the kinds of clothes women often do--no place in the dress to contain a wallet, for example
•go white water rafting or do anything like that where it would be easy to lose a wallet

I almost never carry my social security card on me, and I don't need my driver license unless I am driving. I don't need any kind of card when I am not doing any non-cash transactions.
I don't carry any cards when I go jogging, go to the gym to work out, go folk dancing, go to jam sessions, etc. if I take public transportation or bike or walk.

It is primarily the idea of being required by LAW
to carry it with me at all times, and the idea that I can be arbitrarily asked to produce it (when I am not a criminal suspect)
that I object to.

The fact that there are a number of situations where I choose NOT to carry it--where I think it would be unwise to carry it-- shows that it would be an inconvenience to have to have it on me.

Genie


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM

Why, exactly, is the idea of an ID a threat to constitutional rights? Theoretically, you don't have to give out your SSA number, IF (1) You don't want to have a credit card; (2) don't want to be compensated for your work, and (3) never apply for a bank loan. That's kind of unreal, isn't it?

Drivers' licenses are extremely easy to forge. If you want to do bad stuff in California, just make up an "Arkansas driver's license." It wouldn't even have to look much like the licenses they give out in Arkansas; it would only have to look official.

On the other hand, a system based on national ID'S would not make much sense unless money was appropriated to enforce it. When I was in Germany in the sixties, one had to show an ID even to get lodging for the night, and the Gastwirt had to report your whereabouts to the police. So, some clever individual decided to have a Fahndungswoche, where local police were asked to actually check the reported ID's and compare the names with a list of known criminal fugitives. Someone leaked the information in advance, and numerous persons disappeared into the Black Forest. Nobody much got arrested. Ha Ha.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM

Genie, I do understand your objection to a National I.D. Card. I, too, hope that it doesn't come to that. If it is determined that the best way our law enforcement agencies can track foreign visitors, or those whose Visas have expired, it may come to that. We are so use to so many freedoms and some of which might have to be compromised if we are to make our country safe. The I.D. card may be one of them.

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 07:43 PM

Details of how ID cards (or some of the other measures under consideration) will stop, or even limit, potential terrorist attacks have been lacking. Before doing anything just to look like we are doing something, we need to carefully look at benefits and consequences.

For those who don't think it can happen, look at Philadelphia under Frank Rizzo in which government, police and the Courts joined in a "gentlemen's agreement" to cover up a long list of abuses, all in the name of public safety.

I am cynical enough to think we won't but by going on record I'll at least get to say "Told you so". Always assuming forums like Mudcat aren't labeled as hotbeds of subversions and censored. For national security, of course.

Genie,

The FBI didn't even bother to much with whether someone was doing something illegal or not. They used the information on anyone who disagreed with their view of America. I had friends who finally figured out why they had trouble getting jobs and promotions. The common denominator was involvement in the anti-war movement. Using the information was an unofficial policy apparently condoned by others in government.

DougR,

We are so use to so many freedoms and some of which might have to be compromised if we are to make our country safe

That may be true. Maybe it would be a little less ominous if restrictions on civil liberties (as opposed to some inconveniences which have nothing to do with civil rights) were the last option looked at, rather than the first.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

This is bushwa. It is easy t say "Why not" because we all carry various othe rkinds voluntarily. That's a choice we make, and we choose to be the kind of person who carries IDs,credit cards, and so on.

But if we chose not to be that kind of person, the law should have no place from which to require us to. This is an erosion of personal choice and liberty.

And the "necessity" of state security is not a counter-argument of merit. Necessity has been used to justify every encroachment on civil freedoms since before the Revolution.

There is no necessity for people to be forced into ways of living they do not wish to adapt.

A


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM

What "Skeptic" said.
What Amos said, too.

You know, I probably will go and renew my passport soon, because right now I have only one ID that airlines will accept when I fly. I am terribly afraid that someday I will miss a flight because I have misplaced my driver license. If I had two pieces of picture ID, I would have a back up.

If everything rides on that one card, God help you if you lose it or it is stolen!

Recently, I missed an important engagement in Seattle, because I got about an hour away from Portland and realized that I had forgotten my fanny pack (containing my driver license), and I was going to be in Seattle for a week. I had to make a quick decision, and I almost went on to Seattle without the fanny pack, because the only thing I really needed in it was my driver license.
I was not sure what would happen to me if I were in an accident or stopped by the police without it. Would I be guilty of driving without a license? Would my insurance be void?

Anyway, if you consider the inconvenience ( and expense) that this faux pas cost me, imagine if you had to have a National ID Card on you even when riding a bus, walking, riding a bicycle, or carpooling!

I may even have been wrong about the driver license. I just did not want to take the chance. Maybe I could have gone on without it and suffered no sever penalty.

Genie


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: lady penelope
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM

I haven't a clue how these things work in America, but I think the whole ID thing would be almst impossible to enforce in Britain.

Example : In the UK we are currently changing the style of our driving licenses to ones that have a picture of the owner on it. To obtain a driving license you need one form of ID; either a passport or a birth certificate.
I do not have a passport because on the only two occasions I left the country, it was on my parents passports, as I was minor.
This leaves me my birth certificate, which is a peice of paper that states where and when I was born, who my mother and father are ( possibly what their professions are ) and the name of the registra.
Should I lose my birth certificate, all I need to do is write to Somerset House, tell them my details and they will issue me a knew one. I don't have to prove that it's my birth certificate that I'm asking for.
So, once I have 'my' birth certificate, I can apply for my driving license. Who ever I am.

I personnally think an ID card would be more of a personal conveniance than any kind of security aid.

TTFN M'Lady P.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM

I was surprised that in the US, as a foreigner I could us and International Driving License as a form of ID. I admit, it did have my photo and UK licence details on it, but, as has been stated by Lady P, UK Driving Licences do not, at present, have photographs on, furthermore, IDLs are issued "over the counter" on production of a letter and photo, by groups like the AA (Automobile Association) with no checks made, so, I could, effectively, obtain an IDL in someone else's name, by using their driving licence, enter the USA on my own passport then break any "trace chain" by using the IDL (or any number of different IDLs obtained) as ID .

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM

The National ID card idea isn't being proposed as a convenience but as a tool to fight terrorism. The only way it can be an effective tool is if it's use becomes mandated in some way for a lot of day-to-day activities: to track movement, where someone lives and so on.

Else what purpose would it serve? In the US I don't think any of the companies that would stand to make a lot of money from such an idea gave particularly large amounts of money to our politicians so a political pay-off seems and unlikely motive. It might be done as a feel-good-at-least-we're-doing-something sort of thing. In that case I think the temptation to use it for purposes ostensibly noble and actually ignoble would be irresistable.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

John, I can be persuaded, but until now nobody has come forward with a concrete example of how a national ID card would be harmful -- only vague statements about "big brother," etc. I am just a bit suspicious about the motives of persons who want to be completely invisible. This seems to me just a bit like insisting on our "right" to own assault rifles.

I agree that one should think very carefully before introducing such a thing. Why shouldn't the government know where people live? We want the government to take censuses, for just that purpose. And prevent crime. I'm not real sure I think we should have a national ID card, but before I decide we shouldn't, I would want to hear better reasons than I have so far.

All the Continental European countries have national ID's, and it seems the British have a national driver's license. Are you aware of abuses in those countries, and if so, what are they?


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 06:48 PM

John, I'll say this for you, when you picked a Mudcat name, you picked a good one. :>)

I'm still with toad on this one.

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: MudGuard
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:25 AM

I am a German living in Germany, and I do not know about any abuses of the national ID card here!


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Mikey Joe
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 08:14 AM

Hi Walrus

I am an Irish citizen living in Scotland with a UK licence and it does have a photo on it as well as my nationality.

Mj


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM

Mj,

How long have you had that particular licence? The new ones have photos, but they are(IIRC) fairly recent (last 2-3 years?). I expect that my next duplicate licence will require a photo (my old - no photo - licence is falling apart).

Best wishes

Walrus


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 04:11 AM

Skeptic, I like the way you think!

Toad, once more, my issue is with the idea of being legally REQUIRED to carry it AT ALL TIMES. Why should a citizen have to have a pocket or wallet at all times? This is a pretty severe restriction, because it can often mean foregoing perfectly normal activities (walking in the woods, swimming, rafting, dancing) or having to carry burdensome paraphernalia and/or take the risk of theft.
It is a really sad state of affairs when one can't go out in public without carrying STUFF or when one dare not leave one's valuable papers at home for safekeeping for fear of being stopped by the gestapo --er, police.

Aside from the idea of having to carry it with me all the time, I don't find the idea of a national ID terribly heinous PROVIDED that there is some way to prevent businesses from abusing them (such as wanting to hold them for security).

Frankly, if I have to carry the damned thing all the time, I'd just as soon have an implanted chip which I could somehow disable and enable on demand.

Genie


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:38 AM

Doug, I disagree with you and toadfrog. I believe that a National ID would open the door assaults on our rights as never before. Simply because other countries have Nat.ID cards and few problems, does not mean we won't. Our systems of Govt. are different as is our National "pysche" for want of a better word.
Meaning no disrespect , but I think we are a little less apt to tolerate the Govt interference that other countries seem to accept.
Since I know I'll be asked to provide an example, here it is. After some nutcase shot up a school, Parliament passed a law that placed such stringent restrictions on owning a handgun that virtually no one in Britain owns one anymore.Please DON'T get into how we should do this etc. I'm simply using it as an example. If that were tried in THIS country...well some groups have been trying to get similar legislation passed for years with little success.
Different country, different people, different problems.

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 06:43 PM

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!! This is still America. Let's keep it free and unfettered enforce the regulations already on the books. Jim Ford


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

Troll, Jeep Man: I understand your concerns. However, I believe what took place on September 11th is going to change a lot of things that we took for granted before. If we want to be secure, we may have to get use to some things we would not have tolerated before.

I don't see the relation between a I.D. card and what took place in Britain, Troll. If the liberals had their way, they would take away our handguns whether we have an I.D. card or not. DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 10:33 PM

Why should Sept 11 change civil liberties issues? Clearly things will change and become less convenient. That does not mean it is an excuse to start whittling away at civil liberties.

A National ID card that stays in my pocket and is never used is a waste, at best. It is how it will be used that is troubling.

As a non-public personality, I have a certain "right" to my name and facts about me. As the privacy debate rages, there is a move to make such information an property right. As such, the government would be limited to access by the due process clause. Do we do away with that?

Will it be used to track where I travel? Will that have a "chilling effect" on my right of assembly? If so even the current court may follow precedent and declare it unconstitutional. Will information so collected be used, either directly to gather evidence for any kind of crime or indirectly to ?profile? people and allow the police to focus on them?. How would that sit with the rules of evidence? With due process. The SCUSA recently rules that the use of heat sensing devices from outside the house to detect indoor pot farms was illegal without a search warrant. To be useful, how will the database of information collected be protected from an illegal search? Will it. Can it? Should it?.

Those in favor of an ID card answer is that we may have to give up those rights. Under what legal theory do we have to or should we?. To fight terrorism? Then what about murder? Drug related crimes?. Where does the slippery slope stop?

If Sept 11 is a valid reason to erode some of our rights, then it is a valid reason to do away with others. Habeas corpus, trail by jury, the right to an attorney........ which leads me to suspect that maybe Sept 11 isn?t a valid excuse for any of it.

Just how far do we need to go to feel safe. As far as Abraham Lincoln went?

The constitution, lets remember is a limiting document. When it comes to the powers, rights and duties of the government what is not required is forbidden.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Tone d' F
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 02:29 AM

with reference to LtS and Cllr, would have to be handled sensitively

One thing our government has never been accused of is sensitivity or sense

I am actually in favour of a national id card say with a unique number that is only issued to you...? oh yes Nat Ins card.

Whatever they offer as an id system I'm sure that with my John Bull printing kit a potato and some ink I will be able to copy them

Toner d'F


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 08:45 AM

National ID... nope... no thanks. Do I think that it is a bad idea, no not really. I just do not see it as a legit way of safeguarding ourselves. Soon, counterfiet N.I.D. cards will surface, it is only a matter of time. Enforce the laws about immigration and such. It is amazing, we started really looking at the laws, started really stopping people and we have already started cutting down on the import of drugs, illegal immigration, and crimes in other areas. We do not need more rules, more laws, more agencies, we need to enforce the rules and laws we have, and properly fund and hold acountable those agencies that exist already. I do not see National ID as a direct assault on the civil liberties, I do think it is an expence that is not needed. Do I think that in time we will get some doink in office that will use it in some other way than it was intended, most definately.

No matter where you are, the answer will not ultimately come from the government. It will come from the citizens. If you want security, do not depend on the government alone to provide it. Do more to make yourself safe, others safe, and demand that laws be enforced and agencies be held accountable. That is where security starts.

Just a few rambling thoughts

Just a nobody


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM

Right on! nobody.

troll


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,DonMeixner ( at work)
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

No.

Don


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 11:54 PM

Okay then, I won't require them!

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 01:34 AM

I still fear a too-powerful, oppressive government as much as, or more than, I do criminals and terrorists.
Genie


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 07:03 PM

Okay, Genie, you're excused from carrying one too!

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 10:26 PM

As with gun control laws, all it means is that law abiding citizens will have another law to remember to obey while the criminals all do as they please. And no, I am not an NRA member. Frankly, I'd rather we go the way Sweden did. Naked is OK, guns and killing aren't.

Every form of ID can be faked, if you have the right $$$. Holograms on Visa cards and drivers licenses made a difference for what? A month? And now, the fake ones are everywhere.

The thing that needs to be done is for us all to start actively participating in our own safety. This means law officials, government, the intelligence field, and you and me, Joe and Jane Citizen.

National ID cards will do nothing more than make your wallet fatter, but open, alert eyes may avert another disaster.


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:32 AM

Doug,
I'll tell that to the cops when they cite me at the beach for not having my ID card with me!

Genie (temporarily surfing without her cookie)


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:32 AM

Doug,
I'll tell that to the cops when they cite me at the beach for not having my ID card with me!

Genie (temporarily surfing without her cookie)


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM

Hmmm. Are our surfing without your swimsuit too, Genie? :>) If so, direct us to the beach!

DougR


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:39 PM


A fairly widespread and well publicized attempt at a National Drivers' License, as I recall late in the forties or early fifties, died a long and withering death. The purpose was, supposedly, so that people could travel freely from one state to another without confusing the highway patrol.

Visualize the headline "ILLEGAL TEXANS DRIVING IN KANSAS!" and you get an idea of the "pro" side of the argument.

The movement failed primarily over the issue of STATE SOVEREIGNTY.

It may be difficult for our "foreign" friends to understand, but the issue of what things the Federal government can, and cannot, do is fundamental to our Constitution. The determination of who is qualified to operate a motor vehicle is simply not one of the things the Feds are (or at least were) permitted to do.

One might expect the same objections to any form of National Identification Card.

I note that no one in our conversation - or any of those who propose such a card - has been very specific about who would be identified:
Citizens?
Voters?
People-who-have-lived-in-the-same-place-for-more-than-3-days?
"Good People?"
"My Friends?"
"Your Friends if I Like You (and they don't look funny)?"

It would seem that we would need a very complicated system of cards to be useful.

Note, as an example only, that there are Federal standards for who is eligible to vote on national issues; but there are still battles going on here over the right of individual states and individual communities to set different standards for voting in local elections and on local issues.

This issue has received virtually ZERO press here in radical Kansas. Apparently our citizens, and even our liberalpinkoradicalbleedingheartpress (a word I heard somewhere else) snorted a healthy "BULLSHIT!" and went on about their business.

There has been some coverage of other nations who seem more enamored with the notion, but I personally don't find it something to worry much about here - at least for now. Others may have more immediate reason for concern.

John


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Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:05 PM

Doug,
Here in the Portland, OR, area we have (or at least used to have) two nude beaches--one at Rooster Rock park (the rock was so named by Lewis and Clark because of its appearance, except they used another word for "rooster") and one on Sauvie Island.
Back in my younger (read "stupider") years (before the melanoma), I used to hang out a lot at both. It would have been a perfect example of a place it would have been a blasted nuisance to have to carry ID! (If we carpooled, only the driver needed tho carry a driver license.)

I understand that recently the residents of Sauvie Island succeeded in limiting the nude beach area to about an eighth of a mile strip (no pun intended). As for Rooster Rock, I no longer need an all over tan since I no longer want a tan at all, so I'm afraid I have lost track of happenings at "the Rock." But if you want to see a lot of ordinary folks in the buff (like the Mudcat calendar?), that's where to go in PDX.


John in Kansas, and the rest of y'all,
I can see good arguments for extending the powers of surveillance to the agencies of our government that are entrusted with our protection. Wiretapping, photo radar and other public cameras, and ways of identifying people quickly can, indeed, help catch terrorists, spies, criminals!
But I have yet to see a type of police power that has not been widely abused by the rogue elements in our law enforcement/government -- to harrrass political opponents, line the pockets of the corrupt, etc. I don't expect the new anti-terrorism laws to be any less subject to abuse than have the extended powers associated with the "war on drugs."

Genie


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