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AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts

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catspaw49 14 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM
MMario 14 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM
iamjohnne 14 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 01 - 03:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Casualties 14 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 04:51 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Casualties 14 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 05:28 PM
Naemanson 14 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM
Murray MacLeod 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
SharonA 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,petr 14 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM
Cappuccino 14 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 07:17 PM
The Shambles 14 Sep 01 - 07:21 PM
Gareth 14 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM
The Shambles 14 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM
Paul from Hull 14 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM
CarolC 14 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM
richlmo 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM
Naemanson 14 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM
Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) 14 Sep 01 - 11:43 PM
Amos 14 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,faswilli2 15 Sep 01 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,maire 15 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM
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The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 03:46 AM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM

Some of the anger and some of the numbness dissipates as time passes, but we are still considering the future and events of the recent days. I thought maybe just one more to allow us all a place to ramble on where no other thread is appropriate. I found out last evening that an attendant on the UA flight that hit the WTC was the daughter of a high school friend. Quirky thing in the respect that her Mom could have been voted "Most Likely to Live Fast and Die Young," but now she's lost a daughter. I haven't seen her in years but I'll write her today. The world gets smaller........

So many images and thoughts.........If you're like me at all, maybe you just need to ramble on a bit now........Go for it..........I'll be back later myself to do just that.

PREVIOUS THREAD....#6 is HERE

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

The world indeed gets smaller - I gratefully sent out an e-mail this morning, thankful that no one close to me or my family was among the missing - and not five minutes later received word that someone I used to babysit for, a classmate and friend of my youngest sister - was listed among the missing at the Pentagon. And for the second major time this week my world spun crazily about.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: iamjohnne
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM

They arent playing fair. When I was a kid back in the cold war days, we were told that it could never happen here. But if it did, we were assured that it would be military planes flying over military bases dropping bombs on military property.

This crazy individual is using people who don't care if they die to take our people and use them as weapons against themselves.

If they are not gonna play by the rules, then I say that we shouldn't play by the rules either. As soon as we know for sure who is responsible for this, we should go get him and shoot him dead in the street. Taking no prisoners. We have tried to do things the judicial way for many years with this guy and all he does is laugh in our face.

I really truly do believe he has no soul. Makes me wonder if the fluid running through his veins is green or something, cause it surely isnt blood. If it was blood, that would indicate he had a heart.

Guess I am through rambling. Thanks Spaw for giving me permission to get this off my chest. Now that I have written it down, maybe I can get it out of my head.

Johnne

"goin where the weather suits my clothes"


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:22 PM

I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live.
I will sing praise to My God while I have my being.
My meditation of Him shall be sweet,
I will be glad, I will be glad in the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O My soul,
Praise ye the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O My soul,
Praise ye the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O my soul,
Praise ye the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O my soul,
Praise ye the Lord.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

The appetite for vengeance is natural. Sometimes expressing it is necessary. But when you act on it, well that's what they were doing on Tuesday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

I'm not sure why it has taken me so long or what it was that trigged it. A prayer request. A tale of courage. The loss of someone dear to one of my good friends here. But tonight, right now, 8:30pm GMT Sep 14 2001, I feel the greatest sadness I have felt in a long time. All the friends I have had that are no longer with us. All the relatives that I can no longer visit. All those people who could have been friends and, now, I will never know. They are all flooding back and the pushing out the tears.

Ah well. I always was a bit slow I guess. My son just came in and showed me joecartoon.com - cheersed me up no end.

Thanks for listening and just being there. I feel better now.

Peace

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

I was thinking something watching the three minutes silence on TV, as the picture switched from city to city around Europe.

There's always been a sense that America has been a safe place, not quite real, detached from all kinds of things that have been part of our life in Europe - bombings and invasion and so forth. All your wars have been foreign wars. There's been a barrier.

And now it's gone.

All our lives we've seen these films with New York being stomped by monsters or disasters, and the people running around like headless chickens. That's what you thought you were like, and naturally that's what we tended to think you must be like. But when the real thing happened it wasn't like that at all. The people kept their heads, and looked out for each other and kept their dignity.

You did OK.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM

I was listening to the Romanian commentator on NPR yesterday, saying he had got an e-mail from a friend in Europe who had seen the videotapes on television. She said to him, we kept waiting for Bruce Willis to show up and end the movie.

I felt that way too, seeing that plane crash into that tower. We've all seen that in the movies, more than once. But this time, This Time, it weren't no motion pitcher. It was all too unimaginably real.

Not knowing what will come next is the scariest part for me.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM

To iamjohnne,
I agree entirely with your sentiments.

What does concern me, is just how in hell we're gonna get him? (assuming all conclusive evidence points to bin Laden.)

First off, eventhough Pakistan has pledged total cooperation with the U.S., this would also mean that their intelligence is going to completely cooperate with the U.S. as they have LOTS of up-to-date intelligence info on his whereabouts and activities - but will they? And are they going to be willing to share ALL of this info, and stick their necks out for possible terrorist reprisals on their own soil as well?

Second, carpet bombing the shit out of Afghanistan is not going to kill the terrorists except by sheer fluke, and while I don't have any problem seeing all the Taliban wiped off the face of the earth, I don't want to see a lot of innocent people die in the process, unless of course like Sadamm, they choose to use their people as human hostages and put them in harm's way to sensitive and stragetic areas. But if they choose to do that then that's entirely THEIR doing, and we shouldn't allow that kind of a guilt trip to intimidate us. (Rest assured CNN will be broadcasting those images nightly. Thanks for your patriotism and help with moral and the war effort.)

Still without the use of massive ground troups, an air war by itself will be useless in achieving the objective. It had no effect in the Balkans or in Iraq. And remember the Soviets had 8+ years in there with everything they could throw at them, and they got their asses kicked, and at the time they had all the military capability that the U.S. had.

Lastly, the American public has never had the stomach to fight a long protracted war since WW II because then the cause was to rid the world of facism. Sure the government and the military may indeed have the resolve, but will the public over the long term? In light of the shocking events never before witnessed to this extreme on U.S. soil, they may very well have the resolve to see this through, because once again it is in essence another form of facism, but more sinister because the enemy is not readily identifiable.

But you have to ask yourself, whether the American people will be able to handle all the images being shown on CNN after each days carnage, since you know that the media will be completely biased towards the victims, whether they were innocent or terrorists. And will they be able to stomach seeing soldiers coming home maimed or in body bags over a long period of time? Potentially talking years here. Further, (and I don't want to sound like the grim reaper) but expect more terrorist "reprisals" on U.S. soil once things get underway in the campaign. The security measures that are now in place in light of Tuesday, will seem like a walk in the park, compared to what will need to be down, to minimize further carnage on U.S. soil. There are two generations of people currently living in the world who no concept of what it's like to live in wartime. I'm afraid many bubbles are going to be burst.

Ideally, it would be excellent if in addition to the U.S. and Nato, China and Russia would help to exert enornmous pressure on Afghanistan to just hand him over for extradition, and for the rest of the terrorist cells operating there to be expunged from the country, in exchange for avoiding a full military onslaught. Or at the very least be willing to share any and all intelligence they've compiled about Afghanistan.

I'm skeptical about it, and I'm very cynical that all terrorist cells world wide are going to be wiped out. For every cell that is wiped out, 10 more will pop up to "avenge their fallen comrades", and it just becomes a circular thing with no end in site as witnessed in Israel.

And even if by some miracle they were actually able to wipe out every single terrorist cell on the planet with a beef against the U.S. (not gonna happen) a LOT of innocent people will die in the process, and make the casualty numbers as seen on Tuesday look like a drop in the bucket. The casualty numbers overall will be comprable to WW II and Vietnam combined.
I wish I had the answers to all of this.

Thanks for indulging me.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Casualties
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM

Keep in mind that the strategy used in Desert Storm resulted in ridiculously low casualties comparatively speaking. I doubt that the strategy would work quite as well in Afghanistan, but neither do i think that we would get Vietnam-type casualties.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

With Desert Storm, you were dealing with flat desert, an utter and complete moron and military commander, a bunch of yes men, who had to go along with him (or they and their entire families would have been strung up with piano wire), a fourth rate army with horrible morale, and armaments in a dilapatated state, and a communications infrastructure that the U.S was familiar with because they and their allies sold them most of the equipment, and, they had intelligence help from Russia and the rest of the alliance.

Afghanistan is different, and more closely comparable to fighting the North Vietnamese, and you won't have entire divisions surrendering to the attackers en masse. They'll fight to the death of every last man, woman and child who can throw a stone, molotav cocktail or fire a gun. And Iraq and Iran will get drawn into it, and who the hell knows, maybe even China.

Damned if we do anything and equally damned if we don't.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:51 PM

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me to see beyond
These tears of rage.

Let my strings sing sweetly
Soothing all sorrows
Let the voice of my heartwood
Reach the depths of all souls.

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me to see beyond
The anguish I feel.

Let my timbre be soft
Gently touching each brow
Let the notes linger, echoing
So the dead might hear, too.

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me to see beyond
The horrors of today.

Let the nightime come quietly
To cover the empty sky
Where once towered the steel
Gone, but for in our mind's eye.

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me stop the crying
And live for another day.

katnumbed&wornout


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:53 PM

(Forgive my typos. Didn't intend to belittle Desert Storm.)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Casualties
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM

Some good points Justa Picker but consider:

1.If we have a coalition like in Desert Storm, Iraq and Iran will stay out of it.

2.China, Pakistan, and Russia are backing our play. So, unlike the Vietcong, the Afghans would be short on refuges. Under the circustances, I think that the Russians will be very helpful with intelligence.

3.Don't forget that we were involved with the Afghans during their struggle with the Russians, so we have some of the same insights as we did with the Iraquis.

However, we are in agreement that the Afghans are badasses. But so are Marines, especially if their hands aren't tied half the time as in Vietnam.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

Has anyone yet worked out how to refer to what happened on Tuesday? Can't call it a bombing really. Hi-jack doesn't really fit, because the hijacking wa just incidental. Plane crash doesn't do. Disaster...attack...atrocity... Too general.

Holocaust would fit, but that's got a special place already.

How are we going to refer about it in future?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:28 PM

Don't worry McGrath, the media will find a nice Madison Avenue style of label to package it, complete with logo. (Not being sarcastic towards you personally. Its just the media is so damn predicatable.)

GUEST,Casualties
I can't really argue with you, except that Afghanistan is very mountainous, and they know the terrain better than any outsiders. To go in there with massive military power, will be I fear, be using the old elephant gun-to-kill-a-fly method. Will it really be necessary to level the entire country conventionally, to achieve the goal?

It also remains to be seen if Pakistan is going to completely share all their intelligence and impose a "blockade" from their end, and, the extent of cooperation we get from China. I still think China is going to try and stay as neutral as they can, with a tilt towards the U.S. and Nato, in this instance.

Obviously Iraq and Iran had better stay the hell out of it, for their own collective good. There are many unresolved bitter mememories going back to 1979.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM

So, what are we gonna do? We got slapped. Now we are gonna slap him back. What will happen then? IF we manage to hit Bin Ladin does that end the war? No. We will then have to face down all the people who believe he was right. So we have to slap them down too. What about their kids? Their wives? You gonna slap them too? We got the muscle! We got the money! We got the friends! We can do it!

But then, as the time drags on the friends get tired and decide to quit. And political differences at home result in forces that want to use the money to help our own people instead of killing theirs. And then all we have left is muscle. We have seen it happen over and over again. This is not a war worth fighting. If we were to go into Afghanistan why would we expect to fare any better than the Soviets did?

There HAS to be a better way.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

The Iran government has no love for the Taliban at all. In fact it's been suggested that they might end up invading, the way the Vietnamese liberated Cambodia from Pol Pot.

Of course that wasn't too popular with some people in high places in the West who seem to have preferred to have Pol Pot stay in power.

It'd be interesting to see how the American government would react if Iran went after Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

All those crazy movies about disasters....all those stupid thriller novels about hideous acts of terrorism...Clancy, Coontz, whoever...

I was glancing at one in the supermarket a month ago. It was about a rogue Chinese admiral who takes a hidden fleet of submarines into New York harbour and siezes the World Trade Center with Chinese commandos and demands American surrender. At the "exciting" conclusion of the book his plans are foiled, so he blows up the entire building with pre-placed demolition charges, and it falls right on top of him.

Yippee. (sarcasm)

So another dumb best seller makes a whole bunch of money (or at least hopes to...) by delving into the darkest corners of our collective imaginations.

And then...IT REALLY HAPPENS.

Full stop.

I am suggesting that it is very unwise for a civilization to "entertain" itself endlessly with the very darkest images of human imagination, because what is imagined over and over again tends to manifest in reality one day.

This goes also for the "shooter" games that are so popular now. What a sick concept. Just to make more money. Do you think it hasn't led to real violence? It has.

The kids I met in Cuba weren't wasting their time with any of this crap. They were human in a really likeable and old-fashioned way, dealing with ordinary human things (like cooking, playing sports and music outside in the sun, singing, studying, fishing, farming), instead of losing themselves in bizarre Nintendo and Hollywood fantasies. It was like life used to be here 50 or more years ago...simple and beautiful.

So I say...

All honour to God
To the divinity in each one of us
To the soul that lives in every being
To the light that dispells the darkness
To the simple things that unite all as One
To that which cannot die
To that which does not fear
To mercy and tolerance
To the God that lives in you
From the God that lives in me
All Honour and Love!

- LH


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

Mudcat was only a gleam in Max's eye when President Bush senior organized Desert Storm, but I have no doubt that had it been around the same prognostications of doom and disaster would have been spouting from the same people as I am reading here on this thread.

There was no shortage of self-proclaimed experts in 1991 wailing about how this was going to be the biggest bloodbath America had ever seen, how the flower of American youth was going to be wiped out, and in the event? You all know what happened. Search your consciences and your memories and try to recollect how you reacted then. Be honest.

The only mistake the Allies made then was that they didn't kick Saddam's ass all the way to Baghdad, and left him holding the reins. I know, it wasn't in the UN resolution. Bugger that, they could have done it anyway, unopposed. That may or may not have been a contributory factor to this latest atrocity. However that mistake will not be made this time. It is always a better bet to forecast doom and disaster, that way when it turns out OK nobody remembers your false prophecies, and if things do go wrong you can always say "I told you so"

Nothing personal to anybody here.( I love your musical contributions.)

Murray


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

I thought Tony Blair's speech this morning from Parliment was excellent.

The words of support and encouragement from our British friends is most appreciated.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

McGrath: "Atrocity" works for me.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor is commonly referred to as just "Pearl Harbor". I suspect that this tragedy will end up with a similar place-name such as "World Trade Center" or maybe just "The Twin Towers"... although, if the other two locations where airliners were crashed (DC and PA) are to be taken into consideration, it may become known as "Four Jets". Or perhaps the date will become the hook: "Nine-Eleven" or "9-1-1 Day".


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM

THere is a lot of talk about Afghanistan and just how tough it would be to fight, but dont forget that it will likely be a coalition force with Russian help, (the Russians had a hard time (because the Islamic world as well as the US aided the Mujahadeen during their struggle and armed them with antiaircraft missiles (but only the low tech ones) I think that during Stalins time it would have been a different story. And dont forget the Russians were a superpower that was probably close to crumbling and had no idea how to fight against a guerrilla war. Also the Taliban only control a portion of the country and they are fighting their own civil war. Its quite likely that the population is not that supportive of the radical Taliban and their oppressive policies.

The question of Pakistan is another issue, if they are seen as being too helpful to America they risk being overthrown by Islamic fundamentalists. In addition they dont really control the northern border areas and Kashmir where the training camps are.

in the early 90s many mideast countries released a lot of the bad boys from their prisons and sent them off to Afghanistan in the hope they would stay there and so they went to the Training camps in Pakistan and then Afghanistan. Those bases must be eliminated.

The attack on the US should be seen for what it is. An attack on the Western World and it has united the west against terrorism like nothing ever has.

One gets the impression that the Islamic countries are full of extreme fundamentalists but I would venture to say they are not the majority. (I could be totally wrong of course, but I remember an Iranian friend I knew in Tokyo and he said the greatest danger to the Revolutionary Guard and the Iran govt was the young people he said people want to live like in the west. They are not all fundamentalists. He said that groups would often sneak off in the country to party, hide alcohol in orange juice containers etc.

People say we should not react with force but if we dont its going to happen again. The effort should be both political and military - as long as there are rogue states willing to provide refuge these states should be isolated. We havent heard too much from Khadafy lately have we. There will probably be some bombing and some kind of commando strikes to satisfy the public demand followed by a long drawn out battle against the terrorist and their sponsors (at this time many states including Saudi Arabia still allow fundraising for Terrorist causes which must not be allowed to continue.

Its also not like 1973 when the Arabs shut off the oil as a response to the west support of Israel. At that time there would have been repercussions with the Soviet Union if the west decided to take control of the oil fields. The Arabs are unlikely to do that because in a war with the west they have no chance and the western world will not allow anyone to withhold oil.

Somebody above said the Us didnt have the mandate to eliminate Saddam in the Gulf War, WHO Cares about a mandate. Did the Israelis need a mandate and UN approval to wipe out the Baghdad Nuclear Reactor in 1982? What does an oil producing nation need a reactor for? I think most who fought the Gulf war were glad they didnt.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Cappuccino
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM

I share the concerns and sadness of everybody else... but, having spent most of the last three days on Mudcat, I realised I had forgotten to look up my favourite international news sites. If you don't know www.thepaperboy.com , you might find it interesting, because you can get flavours of news coverage from all around the world, and I've just been reading the Afghan News Network there.

Apart from anything else, I was intrigued to discover that the leader of the Taliban has only met two non-Muslims in his entire life.

- IanB


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM

Before heading off in the direction of lumping all Islamic regimes as Taliban/Bin Laden clones, have a squint at the front page of yesterday's Iran Daily, published in Tehran.

I can't lift quotes out without having to type them in, since the format used doesn't allow for that. But I think some people might be agreeably surprised at the way the paper responds to the disaster.

On thinking it over, I think the best term might be "White Tuesday" - remember the way the white ash/dust covered everything and everyone. You see the pictures of survivors and helpers, and there'd be no way of knowing whether they were white or black or whatever, and it didn't make any difference. There's something symbolic about that. Those silly little distinction that have seemed so important to so many people just don't matter a damn when it comes down to it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM

Iran Daily


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:17 PM

Excellent, informative post, Ian.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:21 PM

I was wondering if it was too early for these words, I now fear that it may already be too late? Like everyone else, I suspect I have to write something, just to try and deal with it. I apolgise if my words hurt, that is not their intention.

This is not war. This is a criminal act.
THERE IS NO QUICK FIX, it is never that simple.
Is it not time that the idea that it is ever time to 'kick ass', be confined forever to old Hollywood movies?

Throughout history, the mightiest military empires have been humbled, not just by a few fanatical individuals, but by ideas and simple but effective weapons and a desperation to use them. One does not need to look too far back for an example of this.

No matter how totally evil and corrupt, it is a powerful idea indeed that can push people to fly to their own deaths, along with a full airliner into the heart of a crowded city. The question to be asked is not how this was achieved but why?

Until that question is understood and addressed by the American people, the right course of action cannot be even be contemplated

To use military might against a nation like Afganistan will only confirm, that those people who see the American people as the evil influence in the world, have some justification in holding that view. It will encourage many others to think the same way, with the inevitable result of yet more such attacks.

Afganistan is a bleak country, largely because of the CIA and American foreign policy. Those that dreamed, in pleasurable anticipation for months, of the nightmare scenes that horrified us all on our TV screens, did so for exactly the same reasons.

The people of the world now identify with American suffering but have not become American. I hope rather, that the day of this terrible attack will mark the day when the good people of America finally joined the rest of the world.

The American people have the moral high ground and the love, goodwill and respect of the world. They must keep it.
I have recently visited the USA for the first time. This is a generalisation of course but I found the American people to be fine uncomplicated folk, but living in a complicated world. A world, outside of the USA that existed occasionally on their TV screen but did not touch them very much.

The outside world has now really touched America, for the first time since Pearl Harbour. The fury and single sense of purpose subsequently unleashed by this attack resulted in defeat for the enemies of the USA and finally in terrible attacks on the people of two Japanese cities.

I constantly admire the ability of all of the mixture of people of all races and religion, of America to achieve exactly what they want to achieve, when they work together toward that goal. To put a man on the moon, because it was thought important to do so and to rescue the crew of Apollo 13, for the same reasons, are examples too.

There is no doubt that if the people of America though it was important to wage war, it would do so, with great military success. This however will bring the world and its problems permanently into everyone in America's backyard and it will never go away again……. They must be prepared for this.

When you are not sure of what to do, it is probably better to do nothing. To have many people urging and expecting you to something and quickly is hardly likely to result in the best course being taken.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM

I suspect the Insurance industry will allocate a "Major Loss" code to this. I doubt wether it will just be a seriel number.

More when it filters down to my junior level.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

BRILL< Shambles. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM

You are welcome indeed. No credit to me kat, for it was my daughter's concerns for the future.

She had an insight and an honest compassion for all people, that stirred my thinking. If there are more like her, and I think their are many all over the world, we have to try and do something to ensure that they have a future.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM

VERY well said Shambles...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM

I'd have thought they'd be more likely to say it was an Act of War and therefore excluded in most insurance policies.

I think it was George Orwell who said that England was a family, with the wrong poople in charge. I think that's true of America as well. But still a family.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM

I agree with The Shambles.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM

Well, I've spent the last two ays spinning wheels, helping my wife make flight rearrangements for a meeting in Minneapolis that she has helped organize and which over half the people will no longer be attending. So far she has progressed from Portland, Maine, to Philadelphia, to Pittsburgh, and from her last call well on her way to St. Louis. What a way to see the country...

Any Case

By Wislawa Szymborska

It could have happened.
It had to happen.
It happened earlier. Later.
Closer. Farther away.
It happened, but not to you.

You survived because you were first.
You survived because you were last.
Because alone. Because the others.
Because on the left. Because on the right.
Because it was raining. Because it was sunny.
Because a shadow fell.

Luckily there was a forest.
Luckily there were no trees.
Luckily a rail, a hook, a beam, a brake,
A frame, a turn, an inch, a second.
Luckily a straw was floating on the water.

Thanks to, thus, in spite of, and yet.
What would have happened if a hand, a leg,
One step, a hair away—

So you are here? Straight from that moment still suspended?
The net's mesh was tight, but you—through the mesh?
I can't stop wondering at it, can't be silent enough.
Listen,
How quickly your heart is beating in me.


(translated from the Polish by Grazyna Drabik & Sharon Olds)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: richlmo
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

I think The Shambles post was very heartfelt and thought provoking, but the statement that America has the Love , Goodwill and Respect of the world needs a little "tweeking". That is true for a vast majority of the world, but who in the Middle east, which seems to be the point of focus , really loves, hopes for the best and respects the United States? Israel,who the rest of the region seem to hate is our best friend. Then there is Egypt,Kuwaitt, Saudia Arabia and? There are more governments who, especially now seem to be ready to stand on the side of America and justice, but what about the citizens of these countries? Most of them HATE the USA !!!! That we have the moral highgound cannot be argued by anyone with a brain, but who can we trust? How do we retaliate? I don't how, but America will prevail. God Bless America. She needs your blessing more than ever before.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

If we go into the mountains of Afghanistan we will get our butts kicked. The Afghanis know their hills like no one else ever could and they have never been completely subdued. The British tried during the Raj and settled for a draw at best.
The trick is to isolate bin Laden, cut him off from his support and his funds. They are not in Afghanistan but elsewhere. Tell the Taliban we want him and if they won't turn him over, interdict the whole country; nothing gets in or out. And I mean NOTHING.
If a plane trys to overfly the country, shoot it down .If People try to break in or out, kill them. Build a wall around the whole country if necessary and patrol it relentlessly.
"But innocent people will die." I hear you say.
Yes, they will.
"We can't do that."
Yes we can.
But world opinion will go against us."
And your point is...? Most of them don't love us anyway so why concern ourselves with what they think.
Do it this way or in a similar way, and we will avoid even more American dead.
It won't be quick. We'll have to commit to a long siege. Rambo won't show up to end it in 120 minutes.
But it can work.
And it's better than having our people die.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

Great post Shambles! Just what I have been trying to say all along in my own inadequate way. I wrote out this post as I read down to what Shambles posted and then decided to submit it anyway.

DON'T make the mistake of thinking the US is the only place where hardship tempers the steel in the backbone. The Afghani's have been fighting invaders since Alexander The Great climbed over their western mountains. You can hurt them but they have been hurt before. Their capacity to absorb pain is tremendous. We cannot fathom the depth of their hatred or their ability to rally when invaded. Do not arrogantly assume that our mighty military machine can roll over the poorly armed Afghan farmers and peasants. This will be a desert Viet Nam. Don't go there.

It is a common mistake for a superpower to assume it can easily crush any opposition. The British made that mistake in their colony. The French and the US made that mistake in Viet Nam.

GUEST,petr "People say we should not react with force but if we dont its going to happen again."

If we do it will happen again. You cannot just reach out and hurt these guys. It's like trying to pick up a globule of mercury. They are too slippery and mobile!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:43 PM

This was forwarded to me earlier tonight. I thought it worth sharing.

Rich


Today is a National Day of Mourning here in Ireland and the nation has essentially shut down. Churches throughout the country have been filled to overflowing as people take time to remember the dead, injured and bereaved, and to show solidarity with the people of the United States at this time.

President Mary McAleese addressed the nation this morning and this memo has been prepared to bring her words to you. A reader has suggested that you forward copies to your American friends as it may bring them comfort and hope by demonstrating how deeply their pain is appreciated around the world.

For those of you who would like to use the Internet to forward condolences to the people of the United States, the US Embassy in Dublin is accepting such messages at webmasterdublin@state.gov

Liam

======================================================= =========== STATEMENT BY PRESIDENT MCALEESE TO MARK NATIONAL DAY OF MOURNING

On this National Day of Mourning we take time to reflect on the horrendous events of the past few days in the United States. These horrible scenes represent an attack on the very foundations of our human dignity.

We are sad, shocked, sickened, grieving, disbelieving, outraged, frightened all at once. We are only beginning to hear the human stories, the unbearable reports of final phone calls of love, of the heroism of so many, the loss of so many. These stories will continue to unfold for many days and weeks to come, bringing with them a growing realisation of the full extent of the pain and sorrow that is the gruesome legacy of these awful acts of hatred.

The people of the United States hold a special place in the hearts of all of us here in Ireland. The roots go down through the centuries and are as strong today as they ever were. Our first thoughts therefore are with the American people as they try to cope with the magnitude of what has happened in their great country. To the bereaved, the injured and to those awaiting news of their loved ones, we send our prayers, our deepest sympathy and our support.

And we in Ireland face our own share of this tragedy. We only have to look at the photograph of the beautiful face of Ruth Clifford McCourt and her gorgeous little girl Juliana to see with our own eyes the loss which Ireland, too, has experienced. There are deep worries about other loved ones missing, still unaccounted for, and we pray for the Irish families who wait to hear some word and who hope for any possible consolation.

We have watched in admiration as the rescue services work ceaselessly to locate the victims of these attacks and sadly, we now know that many of the emergency personnel have themselves perished in the course of their duties. Their heroic, loving care for the stranger stands in sharp contrast to the evil of those who perpetrated these horrors.

Our Embassy and Consulates in the United States and Government Departments at home are deeply involved in providing caring assistance to our Irish family here and in the United States and we thank them for the kindness and sensitivity with which they go about this difficult work.

This National Day of Mourning is a very special opportunity for all of us to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters in the United States of America. It sends a message across the Atlantic and indeed around the globe that Ireland too is broken-hearted and grieving at the unconscionable waste of life we have witnessed this week.

God bless those in the United States, those in Ireland and all those men, women and little children throughout the world who have been personally, profoundly affected by this tragedy. May God guide us safely through these troubled days.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

The Tehran article mentioned above says the following:

Blitz "Act of War"

TEHRAN, Sept. 12--President Mohammad Khatami on Tuesday condemned the terrorist attacks in the United States and expressed deep sorrow and sympathy with the American nation. "On behalf of the Iranian government and nation, I condemn the hijacking and terrorist attacks on public centers of American cities which have killed a large number of innocent people," President Khatami said in reaction to the worst attacks on American soil since Pearl Harbor. Three hijacked planes slammed into the Pentagon and New York's landmark World Trade Center on Tuesday, demolishing the two 110-story towers that symbolize US financial might. fourth aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania. "My deep sympathy goes out to the American nation, particularly those who suffered from the attacks and also the families of the victims," said. "Terrorism is doomed and the international community should stem it and take effective measures to eradicate it." Khatami noted that Iran is making endeavors uproot terrorism and will spare no efforts in this regard. Meanwhile, New York city mayor Rudy Giuliani said Wednesday there are believed to be "a few thousand people" in the smoking ruins of the World Trade Center almost 24 hours after the center's twin towers collapsed, AFP said.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

Has anyone seen or heard anything from thr Saudis?

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,faswilli2
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:43 AM

You said it Troll! I'm not real concerned about what the rest of the world thinks of us, only that they don't perceive us as weak.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,maire
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM

I'd just like to take a second to say "Thank you, Spaw".


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:12 AM

Tweeking, possibly? But the message from Ireland and the geniune feeling that I felt and shared with millions of others during those 3 minutes and all week, leads me, and I hope you, to believe that the statement I made was more true than not.

As for those that don't share these views of the American people.

This is the starting point to demonstrate that they are wrong. To make them question the information they are supplied with.

To demonstrate that the people we care for do live in a great democracy and will not pressure their leaders into doing just 'something'. But ensure that time is taken to enable the right reaction to be made.

The humiliations of the political failure, that was Pearl Harbour, were never erased by subsequent actions. Nor will the political and security failures of this humiliation.

There will be much pressure from those whose failure it was, to kick out and deflect attention away from these failures. I hope the good people of America will ensure that this will be resisted?

Nothing will now change the suffering of those families directly affected by this horror and the effect it has had on us all. The real heroes of this, toil quietly away in the rubble or do what they can.

The right response is one that honestly endeavours to ensure that such scenes are never to be repeated..... Anywhere.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:46 AM

Possibly the right or samrt response is to do nothing, or at least no great military gesture, but to quitely work through the democratic legal processes to bring the guilty to book and prevent future atrocities.

If this were war, it is probably best not to do what your enemy thinks you will do or what they want you to do?

Nations that suffer, especially at the hands of indescriminate bombing attacks, have in the past received the sympathy of the world and their attackers condemnation.

Usually the latter is the USA........ Maybe it is time to be samrt, to reverse this and beat these fanatics at their own game.

This way the world would have really changed, and for the better. The lives of our people may be the last ones ever to be lost, in this way?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:04 AM

Rich, thank you for printing the statement from the Irish President. A moving statement.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:10 AM

A few points about Afghanistan. In the 19th century and in the 20th century the British and the Russsians were involved but these were more of land based wars and like any other guerrilla army, the Afghans made use of the terrain. However, I doubt very much now if the Taliban have any idea what modern warfare can really be like. Hiding in the hills and sniping at the enemy is unlikely to be of much use against airbursts, gas and other weapons which I have no doubt are in the arsenal of the superpowers. As suggested earlier if it means building a wall around the country, I am sure with modern methods that is quite feasible. After all the Romans some 2000 years ago managed to surround and isolate Vercingetorex and later Massada by building a wall. To IamJohnne: Don't insult the plants of the world by saying Bin Laden has green stuff in his veins. Without them we couldn't survive.:-)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:15 AM

On the news coverage on ABC, one of the commentators (Robert... don't know how to spell his last name but it's pronounced 'Crewelwich'), was explaining why the wreckage of the twin towers isn't higher than it is, considering how tall the towers were.

He explained that a fairly large amount of material from the buildings was pulverized into the powder that blanketed the city after they fell. He said that the powder consisted of things like concrete, gypsum board, marble, and metal, the rigid materials from the buildings.

At the end of the piece, he talked about the huge amount of paper that survived, intact, and that is also blanketing the city.

He wondered aloud why the paper should have survived, despite being such a fragile material, while the stronger materials were pulverized.

I was reminded of something someone once told me was an ancient Chinese saying, having to do with bending like the reed in the wind instead of breaking like the tree.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM

Fiolar, I don't think we should be looking to ancient Rome for guidance on how to survive as a civilization in the long term. Even with all of their efforts to eliminate and contain the 'barbarians', it was the barbarians who won in the end.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM

"He wondered aloud why the paper should have survived, despite being such a fragile material, while the stronger materials were pulverized"

It could yet prove that 'the pen is mightier than the sword'?


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