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AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts

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catspaw49 14 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM
MMario 14 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM
iamjohnne 14 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 01 - 03:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Casualties 14 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 04:51 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Casualties 14 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM
Justa Picker 14 Sep 01 - 05:28 PM
Naemanson 14 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM
Murray MacLeod 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
SharonA 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,petr 14 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM
Cappuccino 14 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 07:17 PM
The Shambles 14 Sep 01 - 07:21 PM
Gareth 14 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM
The Shambles 14 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM
Paul from Hull 14 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM
CarolC 14 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM
richlmo 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM
Naemanson 14 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM
Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) 14 Sep 01 - 11:43 PM
Amos 14 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,faswilli2 15 Sep 01 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,maire 15 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM
The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 03:12 AM
The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 03:46 AM
Chanteyranger 15 Sep 01 - 04:04 AM
Fiolar 15 Sep 01 - 05:10 AM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 05:15 AM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM
The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM
Naemanson 15 Sep 01 - 06:49 AM
Fiolar 15 Sep 01 - 06:55 AM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 01 - 07:03 AM
BlueJay 15 Sep 01 - 07:08 AM
Peg 15 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM
Amos 15 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM
Paul from Hull 15 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM
The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 12:30 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Sep 01 - 12:32 PM
Amos 15 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM
The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM
Paul from Hull 15 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM
Alice 15 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 01 - 02:57 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM
SharonA 15 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM
Jane2001 15 Sep 01 - 03:41 PM
Ebbie 15 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM
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Ebbie 15 Sep 01 - 04:42 PM
DougR 15 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Bob S 15 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM
Justa Picker 15 Sep 01 - 06:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 01 - 06:17 PM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM

Some of the anger and some of the numbness dissipates as time passes, but we are still considering the future and events of the recent days. I thought maybe just one more to allow us all a place to ramble on where no other thread is appropriate. I found out last evening that an attendant on the UA flight that hit the WTC was the daughter of a high school friend. Quirky thing in the respect that her Mom could have been voted "Most Likely to Live Fast and Die Young," but now she's lost a daughter. I haven't seen her in years but I'll write her today. The world gets smaller........

So many images and thoughts.........If you're like me at all, maybe you just need to ramble on a bit now........Go for it..........I'll be back later myself to do just that.

PREVIOUS THREAD....#6 is HERE

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

The world indeed gets smaller - I gratefully sent out an e-mail this morning, thankful that no one close to me or my family was among the missing - and not five minutes later received word that someone I used to babysit for, a classmate and friend of my youngest sister - was listed among the missing at the Pentagon. And for the second major time this week my world spun crazily about.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: iamjohnne
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM

They arent playing fair. When I was a kid back in the cold war days, we were told that it could never happen here. But if it did, we were assured that it would be military planes flying over military bases dropping bombs on military property.

This crazy individual is using people who don't care if they die to take our people and use them as weapons against themselves.

If they are not gonna play by the rules, then I say that we shouldn't play by the rules either. As soon as we know for sure who is responsible for this, we should go get him and shoot him dead in the street. Taking no prisoners. We have tried to do things the judicial way for many years with this guy and all he does is laugh in our face.

I really truly do believe he has no soul. Makes me wonder if the fluid running through his veins is green or something, cause it surely isnt blood. If it was blood, that would indicate he had a heart.

Guess I am through rambling. Thanks Spaw for giving me permission to get this off my chest. Now that I have written it down, maybe I can get it out of my head.

Johnne

"goin where the weather suits my clothes"


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:22 PM

I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live.
I will sing praise to My God while I have my being.
My meditation of Him shall be sweet,
I will be glad, I will be glad in the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O My soul,
Praise ye the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O My soul,
Praise ye the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O my soul,
Praise ye the Lord.

Bless thou the Lord O my soul,
Praise ye the Lord.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

The appetite for vengeance is natural. Sometimes expressing it is necessary. But when you act on it, well that's what they were doing on Tuesday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

I'm not sure why it has taken me so long or what it was that trigged it. A prayer request. A tale of courage. The loss of someone dear to one of my good friends here. But tonight, right now, 8:30pm GMT Sep 14 2001, I feel the greatest sadness I have felt in a long time. All the friends I have had that are no longer with us. All the relatives that I can no longer visit. All those people who could have been friends and, now, I will never know. They are all flooding back and the pushing out the tears.

Ah well. I always was a bit slow I guess. My son just came in and showed me joecartoon.com - cheersed me up no end.

Thanks for listening and just being there. I feel better now.

Peace

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

I was thinking something watching the three minutes silence on TV, as the picture switched from city to city around Europe.

There's always been a sense that America has been a safe place, not quite real, detached from all kinds of things that have been part of our life in Europe - bombings and invasion and so forth. All your wars have been foreign wars. There's been a barrier.

And now it's gone.

All our lives we've seen these films with New York being stomped by monsters or disasters, and the people running around like headless chickens. That's what you thought you were like, and naturally that's what we tended to think you must be like. But when the real thing happened it wasn't like that at all. The people kept their heads, and looked out for each other and kept their dignity.

You did OK.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM

I was listening to the Romanian commentator on NPR yesterday, saying he had got an e-mail from a friend in Europe who had seen the videotapes on television. She said to him, we kept waiting for Bruce Willis to show up and end the movie.

I felt that way too, seeing that plane crash into that tower. We've all seen that in the movies, more than once. But this time, This Time, it weren't no motion pitcher. It was all too unimaginably real.

Not knowing what will come next is the scariest part for me.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM

To iamjohnne,
I agree entirely with your sentiments.

What does concern me, is just how in hell we're gonna get him? (assuming all conclusive evidence points to bin Laden.)

First off, eventhough Pakistan has pledged total cooperation with the U.S., this would also mean that their intelligence is going to completely cooperate with the U.S. as they have LOTS of up-to-date intelligence info on his whereabouts and activities - but will they? And are they going to be willing to share ALL of this info, and stick their necks out for possible terrorist reprisals on their own soil as well?

Second, carpet bombing the shit out of Afghanistan is not going to kill the terrorists except by sheer fluke, and while I don't have any problem seeing all the Taliban wiped off the face of the earth, I don't want to see a lot of innocent people die in the process, unless of course like Sadamm, they choose to use their people as human hostages and put them in harm's way to sensitive and stragetic areas. But if they choose to do that then that's entirely THEIR doing, and we shouldn't allow that kind of a guilt trip to intimidate us. (Rest assured CNN will be broadcasting those images nightly. Thanks for your patriotism and help with moral and the war effort.)

Still without the use of massive ground troups, an air war by itself will be useless in achieving the objective. It had no effect in the Balkans or in Iraq. And remember the Soviets had 8+ years in there with everything they could throw at them, and they got their asses kicked, and at the time they had all the military capability that the U.S. had.

Lastly, the American public has never had the stomach to fight a long protracted war since WW II because then the cause was to rid the world of facism. Sure the government and the military may indeed have the resolve, but will the public over the long term? In light of the shocking events never before witnessed to this extreme on U.S. soil, they may very well have the resolve to see this through, because once again it is in essence another form of facism, but more sinister because the enemy is not readily identifiable.

But you have to ask yourself, whether the American people will be able to handle all the images being shown on CNN after each days carnage, since you know that the media will be completely biased towards the victims, whether they were innocent or terrorists. And will they be able to stomach seeing soldiers coming home maimed or in body bags over a long period of time? Potentially talking years here. Further, (and I don't want to sound like the grim reaper) but expect more terrorist "reprisals" on U.S. soil once things get underway in the campaign. The security measures that are now in place in light of Tuesday, will seem like a walk in the park, compared to what will need to be down, to minimize further carnage on U.S. soil. There are two generations of people currently living in the world who no concept of what it's like to live in wartime. I'm afraid many bubbles are going to be burst.

Ideally, it would be excellent if in addition to the U.S. and Nato, China and Russia would help to exert enornmous pressure on Afghanistan to just hand him over for extradition, and for the rest of the terrorist cells operating there to be expunged from the country, in exchange for avoiding a full military onslaught. Or at the very least be willing to share any and all intelligence they've compiled about Afghanistan.

I'm skeptical about it, and I'm very cynical that all terrorist cells world wide are going to be wiped out. For every cell that is wiped out, 10 more will pop up to "avenge their fallen comrades", and it just becomes a circular thing with no end in site as witnessed in Israel.

And even if by some miracle they were actually able to wipe out every single terrorist cell on the planet with a beef against the U.S. (not gonna happen) a LOT of innocent people will die in the process, and make the casualty numbers as seen on Tuesday look like a drop in the bucket. The casualty numbers overall will be comprable to WW II and Vietnam combined.
I wish I had the answers to all of this.

Thanks for indulging me.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Casualties
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM

Keep in mind that the strategy used in Desert Storm resulted in ridiculously low casualties comparatively speaking. I doubt that the strategy would work quite as well in Afghanistan, but neither do i think that we would get Vietnam-type casualties.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

With Desert Storm, you were dealing with flat desert, an utter and complete moron and military commander, a bunch of yes men, who had to go along with him (or they and their entire families would have been strung up with piano wire), a fourth rate army with horrible morale, and armaments in a dilapatated state, and a communications infrastructure that the U.S was familiar with because they and their allies sold them most of the equipment, and, they had intelligence help from Russia and the rest of the alliance.

Afghanistan is different, and more closely comparable to fighting the North Vietnamese, and you won't have entire divisions surrendering to the attackers en masse. They'll fight to the death of every last man, woman and child who can throw a stone, molotav cocktail or fire a gun. And Iraq and Iran will get drawn into it, and who the hell knows, maybe even China.

Damned if we do anything and equally damned if we don't.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:51 PM

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me to see beyond
These tears of rage.

Let my strings sing sweetly
Soothing all sorrows
Let the voice of my heartwood
Reach the depths of all souls.

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me to see beyond
The anguish I feel.

Let my timbre be soft
Gently touching each brow
Let the notes linger, echoing
So the dead might hear, too.

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me to see beyond
The horrors of today.

Let the nightime come quietly
To cover the empty sky
Where once towered the steel
Gone, but for in our mind's eye.

Make me an instrument
An instrument of change
Help me stop the crying
And live for another day.

katnumbed&wornout


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:53 PM

(Forgive my typos. Didn't intend to belittle Desert Storm.)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Casualties
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM

Some good points Justa Picker but consider:

1.If we have a coalition like in Desert Storm, Iraq and Iran will stay out of it.

2.China, Pakistan, and Russia are backing our play. So, unlike the Vietcong, the Afghans would be short on refuges. Under the circustances, I think that the Russians will be very helpful with intelligence.

3.Don't forget that we were involved with the Afghans during their struggle with the Russians, so we have some of the same insights as we did with the Iraquis.

However, we are in agreement that the Afghans are badasses. But so are Marines, especially if their hands aren't tied half the time as in Vietnam.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

Has anyone yet worked out how to refer to what happened on Tuesday? Can't call it a bombing really. Hi-jack doesn't really fit, because the hijacking wa just incidental. Plane crash doesn't do. Disaster...attack...atrocity... Too general.

Holocaust would fit, but that's got a special place already.

How are we going to refer about it in future?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:28 PM

Don't worry McGrath, the media will find a nice Madison Avenue style of label to package it, complete with logo. (Not being sarcastic towards you personally. Its just the media is so damn predicatable.)

GUEST,Casualties
I can't really argue with you, except that Afghanistan is very mountainous, and they know the terrain better than any outsiders. To go in there with massive military power, will be I fear, be using the old elephant gun-to-kill-a-fly method. Will it really be necessary to level the entire country conventionally, to achieve the goal?

It also remains to be seen if Pakistan is going to completely share all their intelligence and impose a "blockade" from their end, and, the extent of cooperation we get from China. I still think China is going to try and stay as neutral as they can, with a tilt towards the U.S. and Nato, in this instance.

Obviously Iraq and Iran had better stay the hell out of it, for their own collective good. There are many unresolved bitter mememories going back to 1979.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM

So, what are we gonna do? We got slapped. Now we are gonna slap him back. What will happen then? IF we manage to hit Bin Ladin does that end the war? No. We will then have to face down all the people who believe he was right. So we have to slap them down too. What about their kids? Their wives? You gonna slap them too? We got the muscle! We got the money! We got the friends! We can do it!

But then, as the time drags on the friends get tired and decide to quit. And political differences at home result in forces that want to use the money to help our own people instead of killing theirs. And then all we have left is muscle. We have seen it happen over and over again. This is not a war worth fighting. If we were to go into Afghanistan why would we expect to fare any better than the Soviets did?

There HAS to be a better way.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

The Iran government has no love for the Taliban at all. In fact it's been suggested that they might end up invading, the way the Vietnamese liberated Cambodia from Pol Pot.

Of course that wasn't too popular with some people in high places in the West who seem to have preferred to have Pol Pot stay in power.

It'd be interesting to see how the American government would react if Iran went after Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

All those crazy movies about disasters....all those stupid thriller novels about hideous acts of terrorism...Clancy, Coontz, whoever...

I was glancing at one in the supermarket a month ago. It was about a rogue Chinese admiral who takes a hidden fleet of submarines into New York harbour and siezes the World Trade Center with Chinese commandos and demands American surrender. At the "exciting" conclusion of the book his plans are foiled, so he blows up the entire building with pre-placed demolition charges, and it falls right on top of him.

Yippee. (sarcasm)

So another dumb best seller makes a whole bunch of money (or at least hopes to...) by delving into the darkest corners of our collective imaginations.

And then...IT REALLY HAPPENS.

Full stop.

I am suggesting that it is very unwise for a civilization to "entertain" itself endlessly with the very darkest images of human imagination, because what is imagined over and over again tends to manifest in reality one day.

This goes also for the "shooter" games that are so popular now. What a sick concept. Just to make more money. Do you think it hasn't led to real violence? It has.

The kids I met in Cuba weren't wasting their time with any of this crap. They were human in a really likeable and old-fashioned way, dealing with ordinary human things (like cooking, playing sports and music outside in the sun, singing, studying, fishing, farming), instead of losing themselves in bizarre Nintendo and Hollywood fantasies. It was like life used to be here 50 or more years ago...simple and beautiful.

So I say...

All honour to God
To the divinity in each one of us
To the soul that lives in every being
To the light that dispells the darkness
To the simple things that unite all as One
To that which cannot die
To that which does not fear
To mercy and tolerance
To the God that lives in you
From the God that lives in me
All Honour and Love!

- LH


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

Mudcat was only a gleam in Max's eye when President Bush senior organized Desert Storm, but I have no doubt that had it been around the same prognostications of doom and disaster would have been spouting from the same people as I am reading here on this thread.

There was no shortage of self-proclaimed experts in 1991 wailing about how this was going to be the biggest bloodbath America had ever seen, how the flower of American youth was going to be wiped out, and in the event? You all know what happened. Search your consciences and your memories and try to recollect how you reacted then. Be honest.

The only mistake the Allies made then was that they didn't kick Saddam's ass all the way to Baghdad, and left him holding the reins. I know, it wasn't in the UN resolution. Bugger that, they could have done it anyway, unopposed. That may or may not have been a contributory factor to this latest atrocity. However that mistake will not be made this time. It is always a better bet to forecast doom and disaster, that way when it turns out OK nobody remembers your false prophecies, and if things do go wrong you can always say "I told you so"

Nothing personal to anybody here.( I love your musical contributions.)

Murray


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

I thought Tony Blair's speech this morning from Parliment was excellent.

The words of support and encouragement from our British friends is most appreciated.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

McGrath: "Atrocity" works for me.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor is commonly referred to as just "Pearl Harbor". I suspect that this tragedy will end up with a similar place-name such as "World Trade Center" or maybe just "The Twin Towers"... although, if the other two locations where airliners were crashed (DC and PA) are to be taken into consideration, it may become known as "Four Jets". Or perhaps the date will become the hook: "Nine-Eleven" or "9-1-1 Day".


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM

THere is a lot of talk about Afghanistan and just how tough it would be to fight, but dont forget that it will likely be a coalition force with Russian help, (the Russians had a hard time (because the Islamic world as well as the US aided the Mujahadeen during their struggle and armed them with antiaircraft missiles (but only the low tech ones) I think that during Stalins time it would have been a different story. And dont forget the Russians were a superpower that was probably close to crumbling and had no idea how to fight against a guerrilla war. Also the Taliban only control a portion of the country and they are fighting their own civil war. Its quite likely that the population is not that supportive of the radical Taliban and their oppressive policies.

The question of Pakistan is another issue, if they are seen as being too helpful to America they risk being overthrown by Islamic fundamentalists. In addition they dont really control the northern border areas and Kashmir where the training camps are.

in the early 90s many mideast countries released a lot of the bad boys from their prisons and sent them off to Afghanistan in the hope they would stay there and so they went to the Training camps in Pakistan and then Afghanistan. Those bases must be eliminated.

The attack on the US should be seen for what it is. An attack on the Western World and it has united the west against terrorism like nothing ever has.

One gets the impression that the Islamic countries are full of extreme fundamentalists but I would venture to say they are not the majority. (I could be totally wrong of course, but I remember an Iranian friend I knew in Tokyo and he said the greatest danger to the Revolutionary Guard and the Iran govt was the young people he said people want to live like in the west. They are not all fundamentalists. He said that groups would often sneak off in the country to party, hide alcohol in orange juice containers etc.

People say we should not react with force but if we dont its going to happen again. The effort should be both political and military - as long as there are rogue states willing to provide refuge these states should be isolated. We havent heard too much from Khadafy lately have we. There will probably be some bombing and some kind of commando strikes to satisfy the public demand followed by a long drawn out battle against the terrorist and their sponsors (at this time many states including Saudi Arabia still allow fundraising for Terrorist causes which must not be allowed to continue.

Its also not like 1973 when the Arabs shut off the oil as a response to the west support of Israel. At that time there would have been repercussions with the Soviet Union if the west decided to take control of the oil fields. The Arabs are unlikely to do that because in a war with the west they have no chance and the western world will not allow anyone to withhold oil.

Somebody above said the Us didnt have the mandate to eliminate Saddam in the Gulf War, WHO Cares about a mandate. Did the Israelis need a mandate and UN approval to wipe out the Baghdad Nuclear Reactor in 1982? What does an oil producing nation need a reactor for? I think most who fought the Gulf war were glad they didnt.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Cappuccino
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM

I share the concerns and sadness of everybody else... but, having spent most of the last three days on Mudcat, I realised I had forgotten to look up my favourite international news sites. If you don't know www.thepaperboy.com , you might find it interesting, because you can get flavours of news coverage from all around the world, and I've just been reading the Afghan News Network there.

Apart from anything else, I was intrigued to discover that the leader of the Taliban has only met two non-Muslims in his entire life.

- IanB


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM

Before heading off in the direction of lumping all Islamic regimes as Taliban/Bin Laden clones, have a squint at the front page of yesterday's Iran Daily, published in Tehran.

I can't lift quotes out without having to type them in, since the format used doesn't allow for that. But I think some people might be agreeably surprised at the way the paper responds to the disaster.

On thinking it over, I think the best term might be "White Tuesday" - remember the way the white ash/dust covered everything and everyone. You see the pictures of survivors and helpers, and there'd be no way of knowing whether they were white or black or whatever, and it didn't make any difference. There's something symbolic about that. Those silly little distinction that have seemed so important to so many people just don't matter a damn when it comes down to it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM

Iran Daily


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:17 PM

Excellent, informative post, Ian.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:21 PM

I was wondering if it was too early for these words, I now fear that it may already be too late? Like everyone else, I suspect I have to write something, just to try and deal with it. I apolgise if my words hurt, that is not their intention.

This is not war. This is a criminal act.
THERE IS NO QUICK FIX, it is never that simple.
Is it not time that the idea that it is ever time to 'kick ass', be confined forever to old Hollywood movies?

Throughout history, the mightiest military empires have been humbled, not just by a few fanatical individuals, but by ideas and simple but effective weapons and a desperation to use them. One does not need to look too far back for an example of this.

No matter how totally evil and corrupt, it is a powerful idea indeed that can push people to fly to their own deaths, along with a full airliner into the heart of a crowded city. The question to be asked is not how this was achieved but why?

Until that question is understood and addressed by the American people, the right course of action cannot be even be contemplated

To use military might against a nation like Afganistan will only confirm, that those people who see the American people as the evil influence in the world, have some justification in holding that view. It will encourage many others to think the same way, with the inevitable result of yet more such attacks.

Afganistan is a bleak country, largely because of the CIA and American foreign policy. Those that dreamed, in pleasurable anticipation for months, of the nightmare scenes that horrified us all on our TV screens, did so for exactly the same reasons.

The people of the world now identify with American suffering but have not become American. I hope rather, that the day of this terrible attack will mark the day when the good people of America finally joined the rest of the world.

The American people have the moral high ground and the love, goodwill and respect of the world. They must keep it.
I have recently visited the USA for the first time. This is a generalisation of course but I found the American people to be fine uncomplicated folk, but living in a complicated world. A world, outside of the USA that existed occasionally on their TV screen but did not touch them very much.

The outside world has now really touched America, for the first time since Pearl Harbour. The fury and single sense of purpose subsequently unleashed by this attack resulted in defeat for the enemies of the USA and finally in terrible attacks on the people of two Japanese cities.

I constantly admire the ability of all of the mixture of people of all races and religion, of America to achieve exactly what they want to achieve, when they work together toward that goal. To put a man on the moon, because it was thought important to do so and to rescue the crew of Apollo 13, for the same reasons, are examples too.

There is no doubt that if the people of America though it was important to wage war, it would do so, with great military success. This however will bring the world and its problems permanently into everyone in America's backyard and it will never go away again……. They must be prepared for this.

When you are not sure of what to do, it is probably better to do nothing. To have many people urging and expecting you to something and quickly is hardly likely to result in the best course being taken.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM

I suspect the Insurance industry will allocate a "Major Loss" code to this. I doubt wether it will just be a seriel number.

More when it filters down to my junior level.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

BRILL< Shambles. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM

You are welcome indeed. No credit to me kat, for it was my daughter's concerns for the future.

She had an insight and an honest compassion for all people, that stirred my thinking. If there are more like her, and I think their are many all over the world, we have to try and do something to ensure that they have a future.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM

VERY well said Shambles...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM

I'd have thought they'd be more likely to say it was an Act of War and therefore excluded in most insurance policies.

I think it was George Orwell who said that England was a family, with the wrong poople in charge. I think that's true of America as well. But still a family.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM

I agree with The Shambles.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM

Well, I've spent the last two ays spinning wheels, helping my wife make flight rearrangements for a meeting in Minneapolis that she has helped organize and which over half the people will no longer be attending. So far she has progressed from Portland, Maine, to Philadelphia, to Pittsburgh, and from her last call well on her way to St. Louis. What a way to see the country...

Any Case

By Wislawa Szymborska

It could have happened.
It had to happen.
It happened earlier. Later.
Closer. Farther away.
It happened, but not to you.

You survived because you were first.
You survived because you were last.
Because alone. Because the others.
Because on the left. Because on the right.
Because it was raining. Because it was sunny.
Because a shadow fell.

Luckily there was a forest.
Luckily there were no trees.
Luckily a rail, a hook, a beam, a brake,
A frame, a turn, an inch, a second.
Luckily a straw was floating on the water.

Thanks to, thus, in spite of, and yet.
What would have happened if a hand, a leg,
One step, a hair away—

So you are here? Straight from that moment still suspended?
The net's mesh was tight, but you—through the mesh?
I can't stop wondering at it, can't be silent enough.
Listen,
How quickly your heart is beating in me.


(translated from the Polish by Grazyna Drabik & Sharon Olds)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: richlmo
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

I think The Shambles post was very heartfelt and thought provoking, but the statement that America has the Love , Goodwill and Respect of the world needs a little "tweeking". That is true for a vast majority of the world, but who in the Middle east, which seems to be the point of focus , really loves, hopes for the best and respects the United States? Israel,who the rest of the region seem to hate is our best friend. Then there is Egypt,Kuwaitt, Saudia Arabia and? There are more governments who, especially now seem to be ready to stand on the side of America and justice, but what about the citizens of these countries? Most of them HATE the USA !!!! That we have the moral highgound cannot be argued by anyone with a brain, but who can we trust? How do we retaliate? I don't how, but America will prevail. God Bless America. She needs your blessing more than ever before.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

If we go into the mountains of Afghanistan we will get our butts kicked. The Afghanis know their hills like no one else ever could and they have never been completely subdued. The British tried during the Raj and settled for a draw at best.
The trick is to isolate bin Laden, cut him off from his support and his funds. They are not in Afghanistan but elsewhere. Tell the Taliban we want him and if they won't turn him over, interdict the whole country; nothing gets in or out. And I mean NOTHING.
If a plane trys to overfly the country, shoot it down .If People try to break in or out, kill them. Build a wall around the whole country if necessary and patrol it relentlessly.
"But innocent people will die." I hear you say.
Yes, they will.
"We can't do that."
Yes we can.
But world opinion will go against us."
And your point is...? Most of them don't love us anyway so why concern ourselves with what they think.
Do it this way or in a similar way, and we will avoid even more American dead.
It won't be quick. We'll have to commit to a long siege. Rambo won't show up to end it in 120 minutes.
But it can work.
And it's better than having our people die.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

Great post Shambles! Just what I have been trying to say all along in my own inadequate way. I wrote out this post as I read down to what Shambles posted and then decided to submit it anyway.

DON'T make the mistake of thinking the US is the only place where hardship tempers the steel in the backbone. The Afghani's have been fighting invaders since Alexander The Great climbed over their western mountains. You can hurt them but they have been hurt before. Their capacity to absorb pain is tremendous. We cannot fathom the depth of their hatred or their ability to rally when invaded. Do not arrogantly assume that our mighty military machine can roll over the poorly armed Afghan farmers and peasants. This will be a desert Viet Nam. Don't go there.

It is a common mistake for a superpower to assume it can easily crush any opposition. The British made that mistake in their colony. The French and the US made that mistake in Viet Nam.

GUEST,petr "People say we should not react with force but if we dont its going to happen again."

If we do it will happen again. You cannot just reach out and hurt these guys. It's like trying to pick up a globule of mercury. They are too slippery and mobile!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:43 PM

This was forwarded to me earlier tonight. I thought it worth sharing.

Rich


Today is a National Day of Mourning here in Ireland and the nation has essentially shut down. Churches throughout the country have been filled to overflowing as people take time to remember the dead, injured and bereaved, and to show solidarity with the people of the United States at this time.

President Mary McAleese addressed the nation this morning and this memo has been prepared to bring her words to you. A reader has suggested that you forward copies to your American friends as it may bring them comfort and hope by demonstrating how deeply their pain is appreciated around the world.

For those of you who would like to use the Internet to forward condolences to the people of the United States, the US Embassy in Dublin is accepting such messages at webmasterdublin@state.gov

Liam

======================================================= =========== STATEMENT BY PRESIDENT MCALEESE TO MARK NATIONAL DAY OF MOURNING

On this National Day of Mourning we take time to reflect on the horrendous events of the past few days in the United States. These horrible scenes represent an attack on the very foundations of our human dignity.

We are sad, shocked, sickened, grieving, disbelieving, outraged, frightened all at once. We are only beginning to hear the human stories, the unbearable reports of final phone calls of love, of the heroism of so many, the loss of so many. These stories will continue to unfold for many days and weeks to come, bringing with them a growing realisation of the full extent of the pain and sorrow that is the gruesome legacy of these awful acts of hatred.

The people of the United States hold a special place in the hearts of all of us here in Ireland. The roots go down through the centuries and are as strong today as they ever were. Our first thoughts therefore are with the American people as they try to cope with the magnitude of what has happened in their great country. To the bereaved, the injured and to those awaiting news of their loved ones, we send our prayers, our deepest sympathy and our support.

And we in Ireland face our own share of this tragedy. We only have to look at the photograph of the beautiful face of Ruth Clifford McCourt and her gorgeous little girl Juliana to see with our own eyes the loss which Ireland, too, has experienced. There are deep worries about other loved ones missing, still unaccounted for, and we pray for the Irish families who wait to hear some word and who hope for any possible consolation.

We have watched in admiration as the rescue services work ceaselessly to locate the victims of these attacks and sadly, we now know that many of the emergency personnel have themselves perished in the course of their duties. Their heroic, loving care for the stranger stands in sharp contrast to the evil of those who perpetrated these horrors.

Our Embassy and Consulates in the United States and Government Departments at home are deeply involved in providing caring assistance to our Irish family here and in the United States and we thank them for the kindness and sensitivity with which they go about this difficult work.

This National Day of Mourning is a very special opportunity for all of us to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters in the United States of America. It sends a message across the Atlantic and indeed around the globe that Ireland too is broken-hearted and grieving at the unconscionable waste of life we have witnessed this week.

God bless those in the United States, those in Ireland and all those men, women and little children throughout the world who have been personally, profoundly affected by this tragedy. May God guide us safely through these troubled days.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

The Tehran article mentioned above says the following:

Blitz "Act of War"

TEHRAN, Sept. 12--President Mohammad Khatami on Tuesday condemned the terrorist attacks in the United States and expressed deep sorrow and sympathy with the American nation. "On behalf of the Iranian government and nation, I condemn the hijacking and terrorist attacks on public centers of American cities which have killed a large number of innocent people," President Khatami said in reaction to the worst attacks on American soil since Pearl Harbor. Three hijacked planes slammed into the Pentagon and New York's landmark World Trade Center on Tuesday, demolishing the two 110-story towers that symbolize US financial might. fourth aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania. "My deep sympathy goes out to the American nation, particularly those who suffered from the attacks and also the families of the victims," said. "Terrorism is doomed and the international community should stem it and take effective measures to eradicate it." Khatami noted that Iran is making endeavors uproot terrorism and will spare no efforts in this regard. Meanwhile, New York city mayor Rudy Giuliani said Wednesday there are believed to be "a few thousand people" in the smoking ruins of the World Trade Center almost 24 hours after the center's twin towers collapsed, AFP said.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

Has anyone seen or heard anything from thr Saudis?

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,faswilli2
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:43 AM

You said it Troll! I'm not real concerned about what the rest of the world thinks of us, only that they don't perceive us as weak.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,maire
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM

I'd just like to take a second to say "Thank you, Spaw".


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:12 AM

Tweeking, possibly? But the message from Ireland and the geniune feeling that I felt and shared with millions of others during those 3 minutes and all week, leads me, and I hope you, to believe that the statement I made was more true than not.

As for those that don't share these views of the American people.

This is the starting point to demonstrate that they are wrong. To make them question the information they are supplied with.

To demonstrate that the people we care for do live in a great democracy and will not pressure their leaders into doing just 'something'. But ensure that time is taken to enable the right reaction to be made.

The humiliations of the political failure, that was Pearl Harbour, were never erased by subsequent actions. Nor will the political and security failures of this humiliation.

There will be much pressure from those whose failure it was, to kick out and deflect attention away from these failures. I hope the good people of America will ensure that this will be resisted?

Nothing will now change the suffering of those families directly affected by this horror and the effect it has had on us all. The real heroes of this, toil quietly away in the rubble or do what they can.

The right response is one that honestly endeavours to ensure that such scenes are never to be repeated..... Anywhere.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:46 AM

Possibly the right or samrt response is to do nothing, or at least no great military gesture, but to quitely work through the democratic legal processes to bring the guilty to book and prevent future atrocities.

If this were war, it is probably best not to do what your enemy thinks you will do or what they want you to do?

Nations that suffer, especially at the hands of indescriminate bombing attacks, have in the past received the sympathy of the world and their attackers condemnation.

Usually the latter is the USA........ Maybe it is time to be samrt, to reverse this and beat these fanatics at their own game.

This way the world would have really changed, and for the better. The lives of our people may be the last ones ever to be lost, in this way?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:04 AM

Rich, thank you for printing the statement from the Irish President. A moving statement.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:10 AM

A few points about Afghanistan. In the 19th century and in the 20th century the British and the Russsians were involved but these were more of land based wars and like any other guerrilla army, the Afghans made use of the terrain. However, I doubt very much now if the Taliban have any idea what modern warfare can really be like. Hiding in the hills and sniping at the enemy is unlikely to be of much use against airbursts, gas and other weapons which I have no doubt are in the arsenal of the superpowers. As suggested earlier if it means building a wall around the country, I am sure with modern methods that is quite feasible. After all the Romans some 2000 years ago managed to surround and isolate Vercingetorex and later Massada by building a wall. To IamJohnne: Don't insult the plants of the world by saying Bin Laden has green stuff in his veins. Without them we couldn't survive.:-)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:15 AM

On the news coverage on ABC, one of the commentators (Robert... don't know how to spell his last name but it's pronounced 'Crewelwich'), was explaining why the wreckage of the twin towers isn't higher than it is, considering how tall the towers were.

He explained that a fairly large amount of material from the buildings was pulverized into the powder that blanketed the city after they fell. He said that the powder consisted of things like concrete, gypsum board, marble, and metal, the rigid materials from the buildings.

At the end of the piece, he talked about the huge amount of paper that survived, intact, and that is also blanketing the city.

He wondered aloud why the paper should have survived, despite being such a fragile material, while the stronger materials were pulverized.

I was reminded of something someone once told me was an ancient Chinese saying, having to do with bending like the reed in the wind instead of breaking like the tree.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM

Fiolar, I don't think we should be looking to ancient Rome for guidance on how to survive as a civilization in the long term. Even with all of their efforts to eliminate and contain the 'barbarians', it was the barbarians who won in the end.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM

"He wondered aloud why the paper should have survived, despite being such a fragile material, while the stronger materials were pulverized"

It could yet prove that 'the pen is mightier than the sword'?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:49 AM

Fiolar, your post is a perfect example of why we will fail. We have the best weapons, the most highly trained troops and we have right on our side. We have technology and the heart to carry this fight to any part of the globe.

And it is all useless when you cannot see the enemy. They are patient which is something we are not. They can hide, go back to their lives as farmers and theologians, and wait for us to get tired of looking for them. They are part of the landscape. Cruise missles and smart bombs are useless when you have no target. Even spy satellites need a fairly large and active target to be able to see anything useful. Goat herders are not easy to see from space.

Our technology has been developed to fight a war against an army with masses of troops and tecnology to match our own. We should have learned by now that we cannot fight and win a guerrilla war.

Consider, next time you fill up your car, that Osama Bin Laden's wealth, the wealth that financed the destruction and death on Tuesday, comes from real estate and oil. If you want to do your part against him quit using Arab oil. (Note: I recognize that is a useless gesture. It is intended as a cynical comment.)

Lastly, Fiolar, I am shocked you would include "gas" in your post as a weapon. It is a horrible weapon that does not discriminate between the innocent and guilty. It kills and wounds by inflicting great pain and suffering. Many have commented on the enemy and his disregard for human life. Has anyone looked in a mirror lately when saying that?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:55 AM

To CarolC: I was making the point that when an army puts enough resources and skill in the field, a hell of alot can be achieved. To say that we should be looking to ancient Rome completely misses the point I was making. In any case if you check your history, the western part of the Roman Empire may have gone down to the so called "barbarians" but the Byzantine Empire who regarded themselves as the true "Rome" survived until I believe the 15th century. In any case there are many who would argue that the Romans were far worse than the "barbarians" and if I recall correctly one such "barbarian" said of "Pax Romana" they "made a desert and called it peace." Don't forget the "Berlin Wall" by the way.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

Fiolar, I think you make some very interesting points.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:03 AM

Thanks, Amos, for typing out that piece from the Iran Daily link. I think we'd find out that, even in the places where there is, for all kind of reasons, hatred against the US government, there is going to be real compassion felt for the victims, as the real stories and picture come through.

People lack imagination sometimes. The sight of children and adults rejoicing at news of the hi-jack bombing (or whatever we end up calling it) was horrible. But if we imagine that the retaliation something equivalent happens to some Middle Eastern community, I predict there will be some people in our countries whose initial reaction will be exactly like that, as there undoubtedly were at the news of events like Hiroshima. What else is implied when we see handwritten posters saying "Nuke 'em President."

Initial reeaction I said. When the true picture comes most of the same people are going to feel different. Some of them would be queing up to give blood.

As powerless individuals we have the luxury of being able to sound off at random. We can call for things to be done that would involve the deaths of countless numbers of innocent people. It would be so very very easy for the people in charge to do things that would outweigh the horrors of the Twin Towers a thousand times over.

And there are people calling on them to do exactly that -"Nuke 'em President", "make a crater of their country." Most people when they say that kind of thing are just letting go with the expressive rhetoric. They mean it in a sort of abstract way, with their imagination suspended -a bit like people cheering in the streets at the news of something awful happening to their "enemies".

There are some people who actually mean that kind of thing, and would be willing to carry it into action - essentially the kind of people who actually did the hi-jacking.

We just have to hope that the people who make the decisions have the imagination that the first set of people lack, and the humanity that the second sort of people have managed to suppress.

That's an extraordinary poem by Wislawa Szymborska, thanks for giving it Charley Noble. Makes me wish I could read Polish.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: BlueJay
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:08 AM

Someone smarter than me is going to have to figure out our response to Tuesday's attack. Spaw, MAV, Justa Picker, WyoWoman and Kat could probably come up with a better plan than our allegedly elected politicians, who seem so eager to wipe out somebody regardless of the cost. 40 billion now, 40 billion later, pretty soon we're talking a fair amount of money. Seems to me Bush's much ballyhooed tax break may have been premature. "Gee whiz, I hadn't thought about WAR". (The folks I know got less than 200 dollars).

There are many issues which incite hatred against the United States, and other countries as well. I won't elaborate. It's been done before, and we all have different ideas. But until these issues are resolved, by both sides, the "war against terrorism" will be a very expensive lost cause. No one will ever win.

As I said, it's for better minds than mine to figure it all out. I am fried and drained, as I have been all week. My focus is narrower right now. We worried about my young niece, Stephanie, who works near the former World Trade Center. She was physically uninjured, thank God, but she saw the second airliner slam into the World Trade Center. Absolute horror and confusion that will affect her forever.

I saw some drawings< (on TV), made by children who witnessed the event. One depicted the two towers with people leaping out of the windows. My God.

Though my 10 year old is asking questions, we are so far shielding our five year old daughter. I have not yet figured out how to explain to her that some people in the world would like to kill her because she has food to eat and a bike with training wheels.

Maybe they'll eliminate the terrorists responsible for this. On an emotional level I hope they succeed. But eliminating the root causes of terrorism is the only way to really succeed. Thanks,BlueJay


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

CarolC; I saw that story, about the paper surviving where there should be mountains of furniture and computers and coke machines...very haunting and very perplexing story it was...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM

Fiolar - I think that in many respects the Romans were worse than the "barbarians" they invaded and conquered all over the place. They were certainly more corrupt and self-indulgent. On the other hand, a Roman wouldn't see it that way. Depends on your point of reference. This is why everyone everywhere assumes that God (or reason and sanity, if the word "God" bothers you) is on his side.

The Great Wall of China is a good example of a wall that was built, not to imprison a people, but for entirely defensive purposes.

Given the fact that Muslim youths from many different countries have shown themselves willing to volunteer for suicide missions against Israel or the USA, I hardly think building a wall around Afghanistan will be sufficient to end terrorism...but imagine the joy of the contractors who get assigned to such a lucrative and enormous job! (sarcasm)

-- LH


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

There was an interview re-run on CBS last night with an imprisoned Palestinian terrorist who had recruited his cousin to wear a bomb and detonate it on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Bodies littered the crosswalk, and he went to glory and took out a busload of innocent Israeli citizens. His recruiter and handler had no twinge of regret or loss when he recruited this member of his family. The recruitment spiel was "how serious are you about freedom, and how much do you love Paradise?" The conviction that an immediate graitification on the astral plane, a straight transfer to Paradise, is one of the hard pieces of the puzzle ofhow these guys work.

Another, more human side, appeared when the interviewer asked him if he had no sorrow about sending his own cousin off to commit this act. His reply was no, that it would not have mattered if it were his cousin, himself, a brother or someone else. This is interesting in its implication there is a complete sense of no-value selfhood -- that all self is incidental tothe Big Picture which is of course the picture that gets trained in by those controlling interests in the culture such as parents, mullahs or what have you -- who discover when they grow to power of some degree that convincing others that their self is subordinate to big picture is a fine and dandy convenient way to make them more manageable. Thus only heros, as defined by the state and the elders, get admiration, and this is one of the keys to the motivation for fanatic acts. When you can make someone believe they are as nothing, they will do anything for a sip of recogntiion.

The interviewer finally asked if, after the kid had done his self-destruct and blown up the bus, watching the coverage of body parts and dead people being sorted out of the wreckage, if he (the recruiter) had not had any moment when he thought that this situation was sad or tragic or awful. Up until this point the youth -- well, maybe 25 -- had been answering with the bland certainty of the true believer. This time he flinched. He looked away and said "I do not want to answer that question".

So there really was a human being inside there, trying to get out. But given the cultural and cogntiive complexity that hehad taken on as an identity, the steamrollered identity, the false images of what kind of afterlife awaitied him, the head full of notions, how would the real human ever get out?

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM

I can't see that that kid is that different from people who have been willing to go on suicide missions in all our wars, and send their friends off.

Human beings are so capable of compatrmentalising their actions it's not even that hard to imagine how someone would be willing to destroy thousands of ordinary people going about their daily work. That is what happens in war. And for most of my life there have been people sitting in silos and in bombers who have been willing to do that, not for thousands, but for millions, in the certainty thta they will die as well - even though they hoped desperately it never came to that.

What is peculiarly nightmareish about this though, for me, is the thought of those young men, sitting in a plane full of ordinary passengers, looking them in the eye and knowing they were flying them to their death.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM

I didnt see that Amos, but it surprises me not at all....this is what we are up against, unfortunately...& thats what worries me....


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:30 PM

Harrowing, thought it may be, this is what we are up against.

There is no security that will stop people who have no regard for human life, even their own.

A show of force, no matter how effective in the short term, will only succeed in producing more of these people.

We will just have to deal with the ones we have, whilst trying at the same time to find a way to cut off the supply of them.

The alternative to this, is what worrys me?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:32 PM

I heard a woman on Denver Talk Radio this morning speaking about her son serving in the Army at Ft Campbell. His unit is going to be sent to Saudi Arabia next week. She said "if my son is killed in action while fighting these people, I say 'good for him!' I will be a very proud Mother."

This country is in the grip of reaction to the bombings, and it is taking the form of the irrational kind of patiotism that leads to the above statement. As yet, we don't know who is guilty of this, where they are, or how our troops might be employed in order to reach them. This helplessness and anger are being diverted into blood drives and showing the flag. This is no doubt a good thing, and a way of demonstrating unity in face of threat, but my fear is that we are seeing the old drum-beating and glory-preaching that precedes any war. I want to hear what that woman says if her son's death does indeed come to pass.

The grim reality of prolonged struggle is ugly and debilitating, as those of us who remember the Vietnam War can attest. What is called for is not patriotic emotion, but cold resolve. In these days of heated anger and pride, we had best keep level heads, for the flags lose much of their joy when draped over caskets.

We will and must retaliate. Let us harden our hearts for what will follow.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM

We must indeed, LEJ, although I cannot, deep down, really say why. I think there is an imperative code in the group organism, that calls for it.

To my mind the only right retaliation will be in the careful scrutiny and correct identification of those individuals and organizations who acted to bring this about. Finding those threads and the names and faces to whom they lead is going to be hard, sweaty, painful work, with none of the exhileration and adrenalin of a smoke-and-bang battle, none of the adrenalin. But only if we do this will we have the right to retaliate with directed force. The fanatics who pulled this coup killed blindly from insane hatred. If we kill in return, it must be with eyes open and known rationale. And the only rationale that works, in my mind, is to dissove the groups that have banded together through their secret webs to make this occur.

Only when these groups are completely brokenb up through reform or through force can we consider the goal accomplished.

I wish I had the data and intelligence to say how to know this, but the intell is not available -- not to me, and I am afraid not to anyone just yet. That is hwy the boggest piece of work ahead of us in response is one of finding out who was actually involved.

One of the saddest things about the madness of acts like this is that the bright images of glory that seem to motivate the perpetrators are such shabby lies.

Every single one of those assholes who died for union with Paradise was just as completely betrayed as their victims. If they have regained any awareness after the shock, they are bitter with disappointment that it just does not work that way. They were had just as surely as we were.

One of the real ethical quandaries underlying this situation is the benevolent and necessary tolerance of freedom of worship. You have already seen the jingoistic retributions that have started cropping up against anyone who even looks like they might want to worship Islam When religous experience and belief is so viciously distorted as to make murderers out of people in the name of UIslam, or any other religion, we are dealing with a deeply criminal impulse, worse than bilking old ladies out of their retirement by uisiung their faith in human beings; in pother words a con job of awful proportion. Bin Laden and his fellow mullahs have created a monster by using religion to accomplish the most unreligous of all purposes, the gathering of personal power and wealth through the deployment of violence against men and women. This is sheer treachery on every level, awful to contemplate. The hatred of those who felt hurt in the US being directed against a religous category, blindly, is another distortion caused by it.

Those who lead and teach hatred and disguise it as a spiritual exercise are the core of the enemy. They have no nation, capital or race to aim at. ut they are the criminals at the core of this great confusion.

Of treachery, the worst kind -- to take the highest spiritual hopes of an individual and use them to lead him into degradation and insanity. What a crime!

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

The temptation to strike, just to demonstrate that one is not weak, I think should be resisted.

To do this, I would suggest, may demonstrate that very weakness, rather than strength.

These fanatics know their enemy is not weak. That is why they strike at all of us, in the cowardly way they do.

There is no shame in suffering or being seen to suffer from such attacks. If these present tears are seen as weakness, the fanatics will have made another serious mistake.

If the heart is hard enough, in those that would try this, there is no security measure that will prevent it.

I know what you are saying LEJ but do our hearts have to be as hard as theirs, and once hardened, is it possible for our hearts ever to soften again?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

Wise words...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM

I see this terrorism in the same context of behavior as the sarin gas attack by the Aum cult in Japan, the suicide/murder in Jonestown, McVeigh's bombing of the Oklahoma City federal buidling, and other destructive acts that are aimed at innocent citizens. One side's terrorist is the other side's martyr. We have to see the difference between self-defense against criminal acts compared to going to war for a "cause". The "other side" is at war for their cause, too. Their beliefs lead to actions that attack and kill, and we need to realize that self defense against terrorism should not bring us to acting just as they do. When we discovered that it was an American who bombed the building in Oklahoma City, we began the legal action of finding evidence and going to trial. If this could be done on a world-wide scale, finding the evidence of crime and criminal conspiracy and taking action to put those people on trial, is a lawful and civilized way to respond to what is unlawful and uncivilized. If we kneejerk create more chaos and killing in the world, we are adding to the problem, not solving it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM

Shambles, when I said we need to "harden our hearts" I meant that we must set ourselves to persevere despite the additional losses we are bound to suffer in the future. I certainly didn't mean that we should become cruel or heartless in lashing out.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Amos - I couldn't agree with you more when you said: "Every single one of those [terrorists] who died for union with Paradise was just as completely betrayed as their victims. If they have regained any awareness after the shock, they are bitter with disappointment that it just does not work that way. They were had just as surely as we were.

The same was true of the kamikazes in World War II. They were sane, rational, and deeply patriotic young men who were completely and utterly betrayed by their own military indoctrination and high command.

What a waste of human potential.

That's why the Japanese survivors worked so diligently to create a new and peaceful Japan after the war. Their eyes had been opened to a greater truth.

- LH


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:57 PM

They might want to worship Islam No one worships Islam. Islam is the Arabic for peace and submission - in the religious context, submission and obedience to God. And the Arabic word for God is Allah. Same God as in the Bible, just a different language.

That's maybe a pedantic correction - but I think it's worth making, because there are so many people talking about how Islamic ideas and principles are totally different, and it's just not true. The people who did this were acting in a way that is as much at odds with Islam as the ideas of those White Aryan Christians we read about are at odds with Christianity.

This horrible thing that's happened didn't come out of the fact that people are Muslims - if history had happened differently they could just as easily have been Christians or Jews. It could only happen because the perpetrators saw themselves as being at war, and believed that there are no limits on what is morally permissible in war.

We may indeed think that is an insane way of thinking, but it is hardly strange to us. How can we see it as alien in a culture that has been prepared to wage nuclear war?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

So many thoughtful discussions going on here and on a few other threads as well. I can only hope that these same discussions are going on as rationally and as well thought out, regardlees of what is being advocated, at the highest levels of government here and around the world. We know we have the power to fight. I hope we have the pwer to reason as well and to be open to the ideas of others.

I keep saying this, so what the hell, one more time. I got to thinking about boxing somehow and it made me think that even the most arduous "headhunters" like Ali knew that the surest way to a win was to wear out your opponent and take away the real strength which comes from their bodies....and Ali had a tremendous body attack too. We must take away the strength of the terrorist groups by cutting off their access to money as well as places to hide and to train. Worldwide support against terrorism and the pressure that entails is worthy of all our effort as is an equal pressure upon the banks where the money that supports terrorism is held.

I'm not so naive as to believe there will be no bloodshed and carnage, but if we are to ever "win this war against barbaristic behavior" (Bush), then we must commit our best efforts to destroying the body of this multi-headed beast and not just taking retaliatory head shots.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM

Here's another viewpoint, an e-mail I've recently sifted through. My apologies if someone has already posted it.


At war with whom?
By: Tamim Ansary

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?

You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.

Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary -


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

People were talking earlier in this thread about guerilla warfare... I'm reminded that, back in the late 1770s and early 1780s, the newly-declared Americans were the ones using guerilla tactics against the British army in many instances. We now seem to have forgotten our roots.

So how does one defeat guerillas (without flattening a nation of innocents in order to get to them)? Out-guerilla them, I suppose: start strategizing like them, anticipate their movements, find their resources and cut the supply line, infiltrate their ranks and sabotage their operations. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Tamim. Thats sobering food for thought.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Jane2001
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:41 PM

It seems to me that the American tragedy is a vastly bigger example of the sort of thing I deal with on a daily basis. I will not name my town, but here the weak or undefended are seen as fair game for all manner of bullying. Old ladies robbed or raped in their homes or in the streets; youths throwing concrete blocks off bridges; young men knifed after a night at the pub; theft and vandalism everywhere; daily jeering and menacing behaviour in the street; public amenities wrecked. And it seems that decent people are powerless to act against a minority who have absolutely no scruples. Our culture of freedom and gentleness has allowed them to move about at will committing their crimes in places where they are not recognised and get away with it. Even if they are caught they are scarcely punished. In parts of the town neighbours are getting together to fence off areas against strangers and this helps. There has also been a revivial of suggestions here in U.K. that everyone should carry an identity card. Can't see anything wrong with that myself, but civil rights groups disagree. It seems to me that we have all just got too big, and somehow we need to break ourselves down again into smaller units where everyone is recognised and accountable. We have the technology right here with the internet; we don't need to work in huge buildings any more. By the way, I don't mean to diminish the American tragedy, I have hardly stopped crying, but a death is a death, whether it is in the company of thousands, or alone in a back alley and on the personal level just as grievous.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM

"I will not name my town, but here the weak or undefended are seen as fair game for all manner of bullying. Old ladies robbed or raped in their homes or in the streets; youths throwing concrete blocks off bridges; young men knifed after a night at the pub; theft and vandalism everywhere; daily jeering and menacing behaviour in the street; public amenities wrecked. You need not name your town, Jane, but if things really are that bad, get out of there...

If the 'good' people leave that kind of town/area, it will implode; the 'bad' people will eliminate each other.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM

LEJ I did say I knew what you meant, it was well said.

There has been a lot of things, well said here.

We can only hope for the best, whilst preparing for the worst.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Jane2001
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

Not true. The majority of people everywhere are good. What I'm complaining about is the power which seems to have allowed to the minority to destroy the lives of others. Most of us CAN'T get out. Our houses are worth nothing. (Why do you think I won't name it?) And is anywhere else better? Move to the country were they will drive up with a pantechnicon to rob you, and if you defend yourself with a shot-gun you get life? A big city centre? I won't state the obvious. This kind of thing is happening in varying degrees universally. The terrorists who hit New York are just a much larger version.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:31 PM

Fox news has reported that bin Laden has said he wants to kill all Americans-not "just" destroy the US. I think "all" includes most of "us". Are we supposed to sit and watch until he gets the job done?

I was initially against military action to get bin Laden. But, if we let him operate from a safe house there will be no end to these attacks. There may not be an end anyhow, but getting him may make the others take notice.

I really do not know what we should do, but to do nothing is the begining of the end of the USA. I'd rather die fighting than cowering. Don't tell me about innocents dieing; thousands are already dead in NY.

One question because I may have missed something. Where is Jesse Jackson?

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:42 PM

I can't imagine living with that mind set, Jane. Believe me, there are many, many places where what you describe is just not true.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM

Bob S.: I don't know if you meant it as humor, but you provided me a much needed laugh when you posed the question at the end of your post.

I don't understand why so many of you (in the U. S.)are so exercised about carrying an identification card. Most of us carry driver's license, social security card or voter registration card anyway. What'cha going to do if a cop ask you to show one of them? Tell them no?

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

Sounds as if you are having a terrible time Jane - but don't make the mistake of thinking that what you are seeing is the whole picture, and that the rest of society has gone to hell. It's just not true.

As you say "the majority of people everywhere are good", and that's true, and in most places that's reflected in the fact that they are decent places to live, and people treat each other OK most of the time.

That's probably no comfort at all. But there are reasons why some places go bad, even if they aren't always too easy to see. And it's not because the laws there are different from the laws in other places, and that if they were tightened up the problems would be solved.

It isn't so much that bad people make bad places, it's more the other way round. And maybe the horrible thing that happened on Tuesday is one more extreme example of that.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM

We (me and the child bride) have been watching the TV reports and speculations almost constantly. The more I hear the dumber the US "Intelligence?" appears. They reportedly knew that one of the eventual killers was in the country and had recently met with the mastermind of the embassy bombing (wherever that was; i'm too pissed to recall). It seems that the attack was not so well planned, but that we are so dumb.

I guess we must stop issuing visas to anyone from a suspected country. Also the Cayman Island thing is another screwup. Need to act smart, people.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:06 PM

(Cross posting this from another thread.)

I used to be a missle shield proponent, prior to Tuesday.

Short of building an inpenatrable "dome" over the continental USA, it's a waste of time and resources given the destructive capabilities of even just one warhead getting through. One nucelar warhead's destructive capabilities would be vastly more extensive than what we saw on Tuesday in New York.

I think now, the money and resources that would have been committed to a project like this, would be much better spent eradicting to the best of ours and our allys ability, the terrorist threats in the U.S.A. and elsewhere, which could mean not only destroying the terrorists' bases of operation and as many members of those cells as possible, but also through more humanitarian efforts toward 3rd world countries where many of these terrorist ideolgies first take root. Both things need to be done.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:17 PM

I was thinking about the Pearl Harbour analogy people keep on making. One thing most Americans may not appreciate, and I'll have to be careful in saying this, is that, though they were sorry for the people killed and all, for people in countries already in the war against the Nazis, or in occupied countries, Pearl Harbour was great news. It meant a crucial shift in the balance of forces.

I don't know if you'd have seen anyone celebrating in public, but there were plenty of people going to bed happier than they had been for years. And that wouldn't have been because they wanted Americans to get killed, it would have been because they felt more hopeful that their own troubles might some day be over.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM

because they felt more hopeful that their own troubles might some day be over.

I am sure there are many Afghans who feel the same way.

One scenario would be to consider Afghanistan a perpetrator, as we considered the warlords of the Emperor perpetrators; once they were vanquished, we helped reconstruct the country along non-authoritarian lines, even though in doing so we adopted an authoritarian stance perforce. That done, the country proceeded to flourish, with other help but also because of its own intrinsic survival drive.

Given that Afghanistan is currently a ruined nation where public hangings and stonings for minor religous offenses are acceptable, we could do worse. Make it a showpiece for democracy, an ally for sensible economic progress and liberal and tolerant public proceedings under a consitution, and we'd be doing the whole region a favor. Especially considering that the Bear would no longer be in a position to act like a poaranoid psychotic aboutit and would probably be glad to see it happen.

This may seem arrogant in the extreme, and you may sue me.... but we do have a case history as precedent.

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:15 PM

McGrath: I think that's a pretty normal attitude. I can see why people in GB were pleased to see the U. S. enter WW2. And I don't think they were happy that so many people were killed at Pearl Harbor, they were just happy not to be alone.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 02:18 AM

DougR, since there is no requriement -at this point- that we carry ID, I would be quite within my rights to tell the policeman "No".
It might not be the smartest thing in the world to do but legally...

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Escamillo
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 02:43 AM

This is from Cheryl Hutchinson, a friend whose brother Craig lost his wife in the Pentagon. Many Mudcatters sent to me their condolences, which I forwarded to her. (See my message in thread # 4) . I deeply appreciate your solidarity in the middle of this disaster, and hope that the madness will be stopped soon with the help of all of us in the world.

Un abrazo - Andrés

---------------- from Cheryl Hutchinson, Florida U.S.

To all my new friends across the world, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your prayers and thoughts. How sad that it takes something like this to bring the world back together and to reach out to one another. One of the most frightening thoughts to me is that these attacks can happen anywhere, in any Nation. I pray for the safety of all of you my friends and may God Bless you and yours. Love, Cheryl


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Fiolar
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:32 AM

For God's sake there's nothing new in what has just happened. Only the scale has changed. The "war" between the "East" and the "West" has been going on for thousands of years. Think back to the invasion of Greece by Xerxes and the stand of the heroes at Thermopylae. A bit farther along we had the invasion in the opposite direction under Alexander. Then the Mongols, the Crusaders, the Moors, the wars under Suleyman who reached as far as Austria until defeated at the gates of Vienna in 1529. As for fanatacism I believe the original assassins were fostered under the "The Old Man of the Mountain" - Hassan Ben Sabah in the 11th century. He would have been proud of those who have inherited his murderous mantle. We never learn from history - sadly.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Jane2001
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:48 AM

It has taken me all night to think how to reply to you, Ebbie. "move to a better place" I think you are telling me. Believe me I have thought long and hard about it, though it would mean leaving everything I have worked for and starting again. That is what my grandfather (a Lithuanian Jew) did, and what all those illegal immigrants clinging beneath the cross-channel train are trying to do. Everyone leaves instead of trying to sort out their own mess, and the vast shifting population makes it easier for the bad'uns to carry out their work anonymously. What I'm advocating is a return to village-type communities, with modern technology providing communication and relieving us of much of the need to commute. Each person would then be familiar and accountable to his/her neighbours. The cities have swollen until they are no longer viable and a change must come. If we are really going to be plunged into war (Heaven forbid) we will find our huge cities are the worst places to be. I think I'll stay and defend my vegetable patch.

By the way, I'm not in some thrid-world country, just in a poor district of your average British town.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:28 AM

I wonder if the Amercans who openly gave money to fund terrorists in Northen Ireland will say prayers for the victims that they helped to kill, small children innocent men and women. I know what happened in America was sad however as I say what about the innocent men, women and children that certain Amercans helped to kill, i.e. starting up funds for the IRA and other republican terrorists and then when they heard that a innocent man, woman or child was killed they sang songs and were happy about it. I think the word I'm looking for is hypocricy. Go over to Northern Ireland and see what damage that America has helped to cause there, and then start saying prayers for the families not ony in Northern Ireland but also in Britian. I just wonder if you'll have a minute silence for them. I thought that America doesn't harbour terrorists however you do, members of the IRA and their supporters. That's all I have to say on the subject


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

There are still some folks posting here who in their pain are looking for relief by inflicting punishment on whoever is responsible. I too can feel that need to strike back, and to do so decisively. But I think it is unrealistic to expect that to be successful in the short run, and only marginally successful in the long run. What is alarming to a good atheist like me is the vilification of a particular religion in this discussion; I believe, and I admit this is ironic, that terrorists from wherever ABUSE religion by acting in its name. The same is true for those who focuse hate on particular ethnic or racial groups – for shame!

Yes, let's root out the terrorists, one by one, cell by cell, bank account by bank account, and have them face whatever justice we can bring to bear. That justice will invariably be inadequate and flawed, a poor solace for the personal losses thousands of people now feel. It's really up to the rest of us acting together, sanely, to make this a better world for all to live.

Too bad atheists don't have a congregation...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM

Well, Charlie, start one!

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 12:47 PM

Atheists are always welcome at the Temple of the Golden Globes, the only religion ever founded in the Mudcat threads. In fact, they tend to make more devout members with a greater capacity to carry out the tender mission of the TGG; they are excellent at support functions, as well, and are unusually pious when asked to make a clean breast of things.

I concluded based on a number of discussions under Cointreau last night that what Bush should do is not declare war. After all he has no nation to declare war against.

What he should do instead is announce to the woirld that for the sake of humanity he is going to exterminate a vicious antisocial cult.

And furthermore, that one of the reasons and benefits for so doing will be to return the name of Islam to those who are true to its actual tenets and undo a group which sullies the name of Allah by diverting it to criminal purpose.

This would put 80% of the East on his side, and would pull the rug out of the jerks such as the leader of Afghanistan, who made the claim that Bush's war was about Islam as much as it was about terroism. Someone needs to defuse that line right now, because it is untrue and because it is a dangerous lie. This approach would give the lie to it; Dubya could go on TV with a Koran and read from it.

I think it would be masterful PR stroke -- saving Islam from the vipers. And it really is true that the enemy is not a nation, but a distorted maniacal cult.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

Busbitter, just re-hashing this over & over again is POINTLESS, to my mind....

Please DON'T alienate Americans at what is, potentially, a point in time where ALL terrorist activity is abhorrent to the vast majority of people...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM

Amos I wish it was you in the White House. Mr Bush's grasp of foreign affairs so far does not lead me to hope that your suggested approach (even under the influence of 'firewater'), will become US policy.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:10 PM

Jane, a PM is on its way to you.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

I agree with you Shambles... Amos' suggestion is VERY sensible.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:45 PM

Interestingly enough, I heard Colin Powell make a reference not unlike Amos' fine suggestion. It was not nearly as strong, but I thought then that one of the things I keep is hoping for is more time.

As time passes, we have a much larger chance of taking the actions that might actually result in a positive outcome and the government seems less inclined to blast a large retaliatory hole in Afghanistan.

One of the "experts" with one of the news channels is the former supreme commander of NATO and I like hearing a military mind advocating non-military action. I hope there are some more like him still in power at the Pentagon and at NATO.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

I don't think there can be many people - leaving aside racist nuts maybe - who wouldn't feel a lot happier if it was Colin Powell was the President.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM

Some great stuff, but let's take it to a new thread....Some of you later posters may want to copy your posts if you want.

Click for AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT

Spaw


These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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