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Fly the FLAG!!!

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Jim Krause 03 Aug 02 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,me 03 Aug 02 - 05:50 AM
DougR 23 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM
GUEST 23 Sep 01 - 08:54 AM
Troll 23 Sep 01 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,Dewey 23 Sep 01 - 06:52 AM
Mary in Kentucky 22 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Blackcatter (forgot to reset cookie) 22 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM
Mary in Kentucky 22 Sep 01 - 08:14 AM
Troll 22 Sep 01 - 12:33 AM
kimmers 22 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM
Troll 22 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM
kimmers 21 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM
Jim Krause 21 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Not so fast 21 Sep 01 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,just a noby 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM
Troll 21 Sep 01 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Satan 21 Sep 01 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,GOD 21 Sep 01 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Dewey 21 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Dewey 21 Sep 01 - 06:28 AM
GUEST 21 Sep 01 - 01:25 AM
Lonesome EJ 19 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 19 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Crusader with a Mission 19 Sep 01 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Just a nobody 19 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 19 Sep 01 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 19 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM
Wolfgang 19 Sep 01 - 06:56 AM
DougR 19 Sep 01 - 03:12 AM
Lonesome EJ 19 Sep 01 - 01:34 AM
GUEST 18 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM
Troll 18 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Len Wallace 18 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM
GUEST 18 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 18 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 18 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 18 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM
catspaw49 18 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM
Troll 18 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM
dwditty 18 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 03:40 PM

No thanks, I'd rather not.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,me
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:50 AM

Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM

Guest Dewey: The whole idea of the current campaign, I believe, is to deprive Oaama Bin Laden of his sanctuaries in terriorist sympathizing countries. I think the US, including the consortium, will try to bottle him up in Afghanstan, and if the Taliban tries to protect him, well, they just shouldn't.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:54 AM

Just heard from leading Russian military intelligence experts, as reported by the Voice of Russia World Service, that the Afghan Government must FIRST be overthrown in order to obtain a U.S. victory over Bin Laden.

This is probably the reason for the giant warship apparatus that the U.S is now employing (it will require military muscle to accomplish this task!)

I believe today's statement by the Russians confirms what I have feared and mentioned here: that Bin Laden and the Afghanistan Government are one in the same. (They will have to be toppled according to the Russians) The Afghan Government is most likely hiding Bin Laden and moving him around to avoid his capture and/or death.

God knows how many American and Afghan lives this upcoming military action might claim and how long the issue of Bin Laden may take to resolve.

Even if the government of Afghnistan is overthrown, the U.S. military will still have the tedious task of locating Ben Laden in his never-ending sea of santuaries and rugged terraine.

This type of war is obviously going to take time; and, I am confident that the Russians have summed up the reality of what must and has to occur perfectly.

The Flags go up to Full Staff Today, and I just hope and pray they will not be used to drape U.S. soldiers in within the upcoming months and years. Most inevitably, however, they probably will as the neither the U.S. or the current Afghan government is willing to negotiate over the surrender of Bin Laden.

I hope am wrong, but I fear I am right!

Dewey


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:24 AM

Dewey, the use of belittling, profanity and namecalling in the course of a discussion is generally a device used by the immature and/or unimaginative to show the depth of their passion and the extent of their outrage that anyone would express a point of view that runs contrary to their own.
It would be nice if people were mature enough to realize that theirs is not the only POV but alas...

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:52 AM

So many people here have such splendid vocabulary; and one always can tell a person's intelligence by the words he or she choses to use (or not use).

It is amazing (and a bit sad to me) that so many here have to use profanity, vulgarity and name calling as vehicles to make their views known to others.

Please show a little respect and civility to those you converse with. The purpose of these posts is to contribute to the discussion, and/or offer commentary worthy of persuasion. Belittling, profanity and name calling is not the vehicle to accomplish this objective, and surely doesn't make anyone like or admire the individual who does it.

Dewey


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM

Blackcatter, I understand how you feel. I'm personally repulsed by bumperstickers. ;-) However, just like Frank (Pseudolus) kept saying over and over, we all grieve differently, and I believe we all show our love, concern, solidarity, etc. differently. I just saw a car with "God Bless America" painted on the back window in shoe polish.

My entire life I've wondered why it takes a tragedy for us to help our neighbors. You know, the relief that pours out when there is a tornado or flood, but the hurting next door neighbor that we never see or hear. But I still can't criticize someone who is hurting now. I only hope and pray all this energy and awareness will be channeled for good. I know people are talking and listening more now.

While they're listening, it's a time for calm, loving voices to continue the message....oops, gotta go now.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Blackcatter (forgot to reset cookie)
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

Greetings all,

While I fully believe that everyone has a right to fly a flag, I am peeved that some many Americans have to go out and buy a flag in order to fly it.

I have been flying a flag every patriotic holiday for years and when this event happened, I went to my closet, got out my flag and hung it up. And sat back and watched stupid Americans rush around looking for anything that is red, white and blue. They make me sick - to only want to show their support for the positive aspects of America when something bad happens.

F*uck them all. I do not fly the flag because I want to prove to everyone I am a patriotic American. I fly it as a symbol of those who gave their lives and those who continue to risk their lives.

I have also written my congress men & women to insist they employ restraint in the retribution phase and I will continue to work hard to stop the part of American policy that at least indirectly was the cause of this event.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 08:14 AM

kimmers, send me your address (via PM since my email is clogged) and I'll send you my extra one.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:33 AM

My wife is somewhere to the left of liberal. Her Paternal Grandfather was at University with Leon Trotsky and Trotsky came to stay with them when he was in America.
She has a flag in the window of her car and there is one flying in front of the house.
One of the funnest weddings I ever played was when a Lesbian couple got married. One of them was Scottish and insisted on hearing all the songs I knew. Her two brothers sang along.
BTW, The Memsabib and I made an agreement when we first started dating that we would never discuss politics. That was twenty years ago. The rule still holds.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: kimmers
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM

Haven't looked at E-Bay yet, but I may do that. We had a (new) spare flag, but we gave it to our new neighbors. Just to bug you, Troll (gently), they are lesbians and very liberal. Flag-waving ain't limited to you staunch conservative Republican types!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

Kimmers, I can't help with a flag but have you tried e-Bay?
It's hard to accept that there are such scum in the world. My heart goes out to you both.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: kimmers
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM

In response to the tragedy, my husband went upstairs and dug his treasured flag out of storage. Nine feet long, partly handsewn, and an antique (it was a 48-star flag), it had been sent to him as a gift when he was a high school exchange student far from home, in Norway. According to his parents, it had once flown on a US merchant marine vessel.

We hung that flag from our garage a day or two after the attacks. On our little white garage, it made a heart-swelling sight. Today, we came home from the office to find it gone. Stolen.

Michael is heartbroken. Neither of us used to be much on flag-waving, but doing Civil War reenacting had changed that recently. We had come to a better understanding of what our flag could represent. We had never flown a flag from our home before, but felt that the present circumstances warranted it. Now, it is gone.

If anyone knows of a similar flag for sale, let me know... and I will pay just about any price that I can. Michael has been taking the tragedies very hard anyway, for all that we are way over here in Oregon. He is a police/EMS chaplain-in-training and remains stunned and transfixed by the story of Father Mike... who will be the unofficial patron saint of EMS chaplains from now on.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

I had a great notion once to fly a flag of sorts. I would rather look like a US flag; seven red stripes, six white, a blue field in the top left hand quadrant, with fifty white stars arranged like the Betsy Ross flag, modified into a peace symbol.
Jim


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Not so fast
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:52 AM

I for one want to hear these guys out...

Wallace Oslin


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a noby
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Troll... you forgot to tell them not to look both ways.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:20 AM

God/Satan; very humorous, very tasteful, highly appropriate under the circumstances.
Now, be a good boy, and run along and play in the traffic.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Satan
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:13 AM

People of earth. Don't listen to God. The last time that he got anything right was when he allowed Eminem to survive that drug overdose. Kill 'em all....

Satan

P.S. On second thought, having sex with Wallace is a good suggestion.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:00 AM

People of earth. I've got news for you, you are all wrong and have really pissed me off by distorting my words. You better get your shit together and deal with this situation like adults or I am going to get Old Testament on your asses.

--God

P.S. If any of you women are approached by a guy named Wallace who asks for sex, just remember that it is my will...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

I mention God this time, only as a prayer against the forces and deeds of mass murder. Not because I am a Religous Christian Nut who hates any Islamic Faith World Religion. I most certainly do not!

Terrorists and their evil network of death would make any man (or woman) pray..... and sweat a little too for that matter.

Despite the P.C. crowd always being down on the U.S.A. this is one time, they will be forced to choose its side for their most coveted issue of global peace. Bin laden and His Nation (with the exception of Iraq) stand totally alone. There is complete world condemnation, (even in the Arab World who undoubtedly do not love the U.S.A.) It is Bin Laden and his nation against the entire world.

Give Peace A Chance People! I don't want to die in my own country of Anthrax Poisoning, Nuclear Radiation, Hijacking etc. Merely because the world stood by and let it happened. Nor do I want to see Armogeddon, because some academic types think that every nation and culture is equal reguardless of the deviant things they do.

Dewey (who still loves the U.S.A. and would still like to be alive to live in it)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:28 AM

The only one hell bent on a "crusade" (religous war) is the Taliban, not the U.S.A.

They will not hand over Bin Laden. They are stauling the U.S.A. by "asking him to leave on his own free will."

Really... asking a mass murder of thousands, if he would care to leave Afghanistan on his own free will?

I am amazed the U.S.A has had any patients to tolerate this sham of a government (the Taliban) at all.

These thugs have been harboring this mass murdered for years, isolating themselves from the entire world and have planning this jihad in advance.

Then they have the nerve to dictate the terms of which the war will unfold on us. And the terms by which they will extradict and/or prosecute him (if.. that is, God knows they will ever prosecute him)

Bin Laden and the Afghan Government are one in the same as the statement of their terms and conditions to the U.S.A. have revealed them to be.

They Say: Let Us Keep Our Terrorist! Let Him Continue To Attack U.S. Citizens! Be Patient U.S.A., give him a chance to totally destroy your nation in the next four terrorist plots yet to come (which the F.B.I is unveiling). Don't Retaliate and Demand Extradition and Justice for this, or We will Unleash a Holy War in addition to the one we have already started on 9-11-01

Wake up people. The war is on. NOW! Stop walking on diplomatic eggshells with this guy, his country, and the word Crusade.

The only one using and practicing this word in its a religious context in the Taliban and Bin Laden.

Stop ringing you hands over whether this will offend someone and draw the U.S.A. into a dangerous war. It's too late for that: we are alreay in a war, that they have started. That what all this rhotoric is about and what all their rediculous conditions are about. The war is HERE in the U.S.A. NOW! It started on 9-11-01. And God knows how long these people the Taliban will continue it.

P.S.

While I don't want anyone to live in fear, it is not wise to use the word "Crusade" domestically. You wouldn't smart off in the middle of a drive by shooting, if you saw a caravan of gunmen on a highway. So why would anyone dare to do anything different when discussing the word Crusade domestically. These people are terrorsist and fanatical nuts, who will try and do anything.

This network is growing and will continue to grow domestically.

The Holy War is Here. On our Soil. And I'd be willing to bet within a month or less it will be on their's (the talibans too)

Protect Thyself, and Negotiate Peace Only When A New Government other than the Taliban is Willing to live in peace. With everyone else that occupies this world.

One Love! One Heart! Let' Get Together and Feel Alright!

May God protect and Defend the coalition and its Mission!

God Bless America! GOd Help Us All!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:25 AM

It's white or red
Its C major or A minor
The line is drawn in the sand
Your either a sheep or a goat
The prez says, "Your either for us or against us"

And this thread is the demarkation
Thankfully, you live outside the U.S.A.
Or else Sorcha, we would have to scorch ya.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM

They might want to drop the "Caped Crusader" nickname for the upcoming Batman Saves Karachi. It could negatively impact cash flow in the target demographic.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM

What is it with spankings, bunch of pervs... :) someone hitting someones behind till it leaves welts, that is just... just... hmmmmm....

Crusade, crusade, crusade!

Just a nobody


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Crusader with a Mission
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:55 AM

In addition to re-establishing the Sky Marshals program, we should develop a Word Marshals program. They can monitor all all political discourse with dictionary (including dictionaries for linguistic anachronisms) in hand. Then, every time someone utters a word that can in anyway be construed as offensive to anyone, they can jump to action and administer spankings. They can even deliver retroactive punishment for past misdeeds such as the fiendishly Anti-Islam Hollywood producer who dared to label a particular fictional superhero as "The Caped Crusader." Any volunteers...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

Lonesome:

Just one other thing, I wouldn't put something up to praise myself that could be just filled with sarcasm. I'm not sure if GUEST was sincere or not, doesn't matter much to me. If I were to praise myself...

Just a Nobody,

Your thoughts are provoking, despite horrible spelling and grammer. I suppose that having a mind as steeped in culture as your's such things mean little. Perhaps, with time we will all be able to tap into the energies that you have harnessed to understand the vast and complex issues of today's global environment. I appreciate and look forward to your next commments, so that I can print them up and hand them out at the next board meetings. Maybe then, my managers will be able to take from your insight and find a better way to run things. If we do that, then we can become a model for other companies, perhaps in time, even governments. And with our government changed to better reflect your views, we can change the world. A world of tolerance, peace, brothers in arms.. A world of...

Nobody's...

:) Now THAT'S an endorsement.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:04 AM

Ummm - not to get people riled, however, I will point to the situation in the late 11th Century when the First Crusade was initiated and launched.

The fledgling states in Europe were in a state of internal political turmoil, but were beginning to sort themselves out a bit. Constantinople was beginning to bend under fairly steady expansion of Islamic forces (military as well as cultural and religous) into Byzantium - having already engulfed Palestine, and with it, Jerusalem. Like it or not, there were actions taken by Muslims against Christian residents and pilgrims because they were Christians. Given the choice to convert or be enslaved, or executed if they were soldiers or other men with military training, some chose to convert (sowing the seeds for current problems in the Balkans) others refused.

Pope Urban saw this as an opportunity to do a several things at once. First, this was a chance to get some of the younger sons of the nobility who had no future, a chance to make a name for themselves without making war in Europe. Second, it was an opportunity to aid Constantinople, who actually called for assistance from the Western Church, as fellow Christians in spite of the schism between them. Finally, and most importantly (to Urban) from waht I have read, this was an opportunity to open Jerusalem to Christian pilgrims, allowing them to travel relatively safely.

People now talk about excesses that resulted in that time. By current standards, they certainly were excessive. By contemporary standards, they were only excessive as far as the side that lost were concerned. It is important to note that while the First Crusade was a military success (the captured Jerusalem and established a Christian kingdom), this was the result of Christian residents of, and pilgrims to Jerusalem, being treated with excessive harshness, by THEIR standards (although the Muslims did not see things quite that way).

Now then, the later Crusades were hardly that inspired or successful. When Jerusalem was retaken by the Seljuk Turks, the Second Crusade was launched, and failed miserably. The Third Crusade featured Richard III, King of England, travelling to Palestine, losing the military campaign, but winning a stunning victory at Jaffa, and negotiating a treaty to allow pilgrims to travel freely. The Fourth and Fifth Crusades did absolutely no one any good - with the Fifth Crusade weakening Constantinople, setting it up to eventually fall in battle in the late 15th Century (or was it early 16th, memory is unclear).

The Crusades were a response to the early struggle to expand the faith is Islam. They briefly checked it in the East. Charles "Martel" stopped it cold in Spain.

Oh, the word struggle translates litterally as "jihad".

As far as President Bush using the word "crusade", I think his handlers should limit the stuff he ad-libs on.

Now, back to work -

Regards - Pete


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

Lonesome,

Nope... I post under this name. Don't have an account, never really thought about getting one. No, I don't praise myself. I know I can be as incorrect, mistaken, or misunderstood as the next. If any of my statements need to be backed up I would prefer it to be done by others, if my statements need to be corrected I will. But I am consistantly...

Just a nobody...

DougR, Think we could get the 'presidential paddling' on Pay per view... I think we have alot of people here that would watch it... Hell I'd watch it. :)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:56 AM

McGrath,

sorry about that but you made me lough out loud when you blamed Bush for using the word 'crusade' at the very time a delegation from Pakistan was on a crucial...mission.

Not only have you used a word coming from the Latin word 'crux' for 'cross' with all its for Muslims inacceptable connotations like 'crusade' but also a word coming from the Latin 'missio' which reminds all non-Christians of injustice and pain inflicted upon them by missionaries and stands for trying to convince, sometimes by the use of brute force, other people to become Christians.

Sorry, Kevin, now I'm serious: Similar as you did not give a second thought about the etymology of 'mission' and 'crucial' and other potentially threatening meanings of these words Bush's thoughts were not focused on Latin and the Catholic church history when using the word 'crusade'. It takes a lot of ill will to misread like I did display above.

Nevertheless, it was necessary and wise to apologise for no fault at all in the present context. But if someone with ill will takes the word 'mission' Bush uses at least twice daily out of the context and gives it the 'historical treatment' as I have started above Bush is in serious trouble. Speaking English during a campain without using the word 'crusade' should be possible, without the word 'mission' it is close to impossible.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:12 AM

Lonesome E.J.: Let's get something straight. I never suggested that GW be given a spanking by Laura. It was Barbara to whom I assigned that task! It was intended as punishment, not pleasure!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:34 AM

Well I sure feel better. Although I think George W is still entitled to his spanking from Laura...

And I support the President, as we all should in times like this. The whole world is listening to what he says with sympathy. The fact that he recognized the impression given by the word and moved to correct it is laudable.

PS I love the anonymous Guest statements followed by anonymous Guest applause for the statements. Makes you wonder if its all coming from the same guy, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

Just a Nobody!!!!

Brillant Wit, Cutting Commentary!!!!

Stick Around....

We Need Folk Like you!!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Then does that mean I should ask Barbara and Laura to go easy on George, Troll?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM

White House apologizes for using 'crusade' to describe war on terrorism

The Associated Press 9/18/01 3:37 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush regrets using the word "crusade," with all its historical connotations of religious war, to describe his campaign against terrorists, his spokesman said Tuesday.

Bush only meant to say that his is a "broad cause" to stamp out terrorism worldwide, White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said.

"I think to the degree that that word has any connotations that would upset any of our partners or anybody else in the world, the president would regret if anything like that was conveyed. But the purpose of his conveying it is in the traditional English sense of the word, it's a broad cause," said Fleischer.

On Sunday, Bush had told reporters: "This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."

With that comment, he stoked suspicion in some Arab and Muslim quarters where crusade is a loaded term that recalls the Christians' medieval wars against Muslims in the Holy Land.

Bush is trying to rally Arab nations to join an international coalition against the perpetrators of last week's twin terrorist strikes in New York and Washington.

"I think what the president was saying had no intended consequences for anybody, Muslim or otherwise, other than to say that this is a broad cause that he is calling on America and the nations around the world to join," Fleischer said.
I hope that this article in some measure moderates the distress that some have felt over the use of the "c" word by the president.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

DougR, I don't think the point is to castigate Bush for using the word 'crusade'. I think the point is that we hope he will choose his words more carefully, according to what will help us in the long run, rather than what will make us feel good in the short term.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

Arghhhhhhhhhh! Okay, Lonesome E. J.; Mcgrath and anyone else who is pissed at Bush for using the word Crusade! I'm going to email Barbara Bush to spank his butt. I'll email Laura Bush and tell her, "No dessert for George after dinner tonight?" I will make it my personal crusade.

Okay?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

Hello Friends,

Yesterday I returned from two concerts I did with Charlie King and Karen Brandow near Boston and at Wesleyan College in Middletown, Conneticutt to audiences mostly composed of community, political, peace activists. I listened to them talk about what most seemed to say was a confusing situation compounded by what I fear is an unthinking backlash from the U.S. government and the media.

During an eighteen hour car trip to the gigs (passing by the changed skyline of New York city itself) and a 14 hour trip home I consumed a lot of information from the public, talk show hosts, National Public Radio, speeches by various U.S. officials. It is frightening.

The terror attacks must be condemned without reservation and done so just as we should condemn all acts of terror.

We are told that we live in a "global village" and that "globalisation" is the order of the day. And if we follow through with that logic then we cannot separate the tragedy in the U.S. from what happens in the rest of the world. The Taliban government which will not turn over Ben Laden is also the Afghan government that was funded and supported by the U.S. government and CIA. The death squads in Guatemala, Nicaragua and other countries were often trained by the "School of Assassins" in the U.S. There is the tragedy taking place in Palestine and Israel, the years of terror in Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia. By coincidence the attacks on the U.S. came on or near the anniversary date of the last broadcast of Salvador Allende, former President of Chile just before his murder at the hands of the military with CIA complicity. None of these things can be separated from the other and all such acts of terror from "their" side or "our" side must be condemned.

The response of the U.S. has taken a turn in the minds of many to a reversion to a nationalist jingoism. The pop music of the sixties and seventies (songs such as "Hey children what's that sound, everybody look what's going down") is coupled with continous performances of "God Bless America". Even Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land" (a song written as a response to "God Bless America" by a man condemned as a "communist) has been used for an underlying militaristic message that "they will pay" even though we are not sure who "they" are.

I heard comments from ordinary people and talk show hosts that "if only we had eliminated Sadam Hussein even if we killed a few thousand innocent people in the first place then this would never have happened". Television commentators made remarks that "ultimately it is the Moslem people who know who is responsible". People such as Jerry Falwell comment that the destruction of the World Trade Centre was God's wrath against liberalism, homsexuality, abortion. Others now condemn people with "dangerous ideas". President George Bush, Jr., and other government officials put it in terms of a theocratic response as "Good" versus "Evil". And the military response in "getting those responsible" will take place as the governments of Iran and Pakistan seal off their borders to Afghan people trying to flee their own country to protect themselves thus leaving them trapped for the next horror to be visited upon them.

The world will indeed change. Voices of democratic dissent and alternative voices for political change will be hushed by government, condemned by a frightened public who's despair will be used in a jingoistic hysteria reminiscient of the jailing, spying and murder of those with different political ideas during and following World War I. So, it is incumbent upon all of us not to be so easily hooked into this hysteria, for us to demand of ourselves and of others to think and to reason what the events mean rather than blindly lash out (it has been acjnowledged that there have already been acts of violence against the members of the Arabic community in the U.S. and a fire bombing of a Moslem mosque in Montreal, Quebec, Canada).

The world has indeed changed. Let's make sure it does not change for the worse.

Len Wallace lwallace@mnsi.net


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM

Think of the tedium as a tension-reliever, Guest.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

Please get over the fact that no one except mudcatters seems to be getting upset over Bush's modernized usage of the word Crusade. You are getting tedious....


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM

officials from Pakistan have been in Afghanistan trying to reason with the Taliban. Had they got their noses out of joint over the word, "crusade," I doubt they would have made the trip.

He actually seems to have timed calling it "a Crusade" until they were actually in Afghanistan on this crucial, and potentially dangerous, mission...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

It was a boner, Doug. Just face it and move on. Even George would probably admit it, which is one of the qualities that make him likeable. In fact, I'll bet you five bucks we don't hear it again.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Hmmm.. perhaps I was a bit harsh... let me see...

I suppose that I should have said, "Crusades, described teh relentless and bloody assaults of one religious group against another. And regardless of other uses of the word, and it's changed usage throughout the years. We should be much more careful and use words that could not be interpreted as such, sense there are people who seem to dwell on only one definition or one usage of the word. Not that I am insinuating that they have no right to do so, nor would I say they should try to look into the other usage of the word before acting. After all... it is their (God) given right to get upset at your carelessness and calous (sp) use of such words."

Hopefully that will take the edge off.

Respectfully,

Just a Nobody


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM

..braced here...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Okie dokie, Guest, just Nobody. Brace yourself.

Troll, you beat me to the draw. I was just going to write that according to reports, officials from Pakistan have been in Afghanistan trying to reason with the Taliban. Had they got their noses out of joint over the word, "crusade," I doubt they would have made the trip.

The only ones that seem concerned about it appear to be Mudcatters, and thank God us Mudcatters aren't running things. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

I think you know what the big deal is DougR. We are living in a country where political correctness is the only thing tolerated.

1: Don't spank your children, they may run all over you but don't hurt thier egos.

2: Don't dare make a comment that may belittle someone.

3: We do not judge people for thier race, sex, sexual orientation... But we do praise them for standing out on those grounds.

4: We should all be VERY ashamed of our country and be apologetic for things that our ancestors have done.

5: Everyone is equal in the eyes of God... because God does not exist.

6: (building on 5) It is your right to practice your religion openly, unless you are a christian. Then it is offensive and you are only intimidating those who don't believe the way you do.

7: Our holidays should be secular, even if based on a religous principle.

I really don't think we need to continue... I hope people understand this is not a bash against anyone. But instead I hope people get the point that political correctness needs to end. I see no need for it, I like to think of it as a Capital and Special Interest Fad. Only to be done away with when the next group of PC rules come out.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM

Most of the folks on this thread I "know" reasonably well, or at least as much as I can from the time we've spent here together....some better than others, but in general, I can kinda' figure out who you are and all fo that. No, I don't know you, but we all have a feel for each other........whatever.....none of that is the point.

If ever asked for an example of how the attacks affected people.....I will point to this thread. We rarely all agree, but this thread shows how on edge we really are and I fear, how on edge we will remain. It will get better I know, but the times they are a changin' (that's a line from a Dylan song just in case anyone gets the wrong idea).

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

I have not seen nor have I read anything from any Islamic source proclaiming dismay over the use of the word "crusade".
If anyone has, please cite your source. If not...

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Doug, I think the word has only ONE meaning in Muslim cultures. The term Crusade means literally to "carry the Cross". To most Muslims it represents invasion by Western Powers coupled with Christian evangelism, and because of that, has a much more specific connotation.

I have no doubt that the President used the term in the sense of your definition number three. His apparent ignorance of the other, original definition and its impact on our Mideast allies is what I find disconcerting. His handling of the crisis so far has been admirable, but this is an unfortunate mis-statement that plays into the hands of our enemies.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

There has been so much concern expressed over the President's use of the word, Crusade.

My The American Heritage Dictionary provides three definitions for the word: 1. Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Moslems. 2. Any holy war undertaken with Papal sanction. 3. Any vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.

Now tell me please, why is number 3 not appropriate to the current situation?

I have a book authored by President Dwight Eisenhower titled, "Crusade in Europe." That book describes the effort to eradicate Nazism in Europe by Allied forces. It was published in 1948 and was on the best seller list for months. I don't recall one criticizm of President Eisenhower using that word in the title of his book. So what is the big deal today?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

With so, so much for us to worry about, about the least important matters I can think of is who is right or who offended whom or whatever other nonsense has occured in this thread. Those who have offerred thoughtful comments regarding this tragedy, thank you. The rest...

dw


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