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Fly the FLAG!!!

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GUEST 12 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM
gus C 12 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM
Sorcha 12 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM
Liz the Squeak 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM
Jelly bean 12 Sep 01 - 05:02 AM
InOBU 12 Sep 01 - 05:57 AM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM
GeorgeH 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM
Mrrzy 12 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM
Kim C 13 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
SINSULL 13 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM
Deda 13 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM
SINSULL 13 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,Mary Z. 13 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,Mary Z. 13 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM
Troll 13 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 PM
Uncle Jaque 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM
Troll 13 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM
Uncle Jaque 13 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM
Peg 14 Sep 01 - 12:27 AM
Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM
Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM
RangerSteve 14 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM
Peg 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM
Pseudolus 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM
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Subject: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM

Show encouragment

Fly the FLAG....put a light on it, or behind it...24/7 .


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM

Guest,
Listen to "WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE " by Dylan. As much as I have been argueing with folks on my "Binladdin must die" thread, This is about The Human race not the United States flag, Fuck Patriotism, This is about the value and quality of life in general, for everyone,Including those unfortunately close to Binladden. They are members of Family's just like New Yorkers.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM

Better to wear a black band for the planet/race........I am.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

It's jingoistic behaviour like flag waving and banner carrying that starts these things in the first place.....

Mourn for the people, not the country. The country will always be there, people won't.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jelly bean
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:02 AM

I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed - its the poeple we should be thinking about not flag waving - I too am wearing black Sorcha - kind regards Ann


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:57 AM

Put flags away and pray from Peace. From downtown New York, Larry and Genie


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

A black ribbon on the tree in front, until justice is done by law and reason. When the cotton fabric I used wears out I will use plastic bags. They last a long time.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for every response to the initial post in this thread. For the first time since first hearing of this terrible act I feel there just may still be hope that all humankind can move forward and move closer together.

G.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM

Black ribbons going up at home as soon as I find suitable fabric, should have done it yesterday.

If where you work has a flag, get them to half-staff it out of respect for the fallen, be they Americans or not. Mourning is universal.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

If you feel the need to fly the US flag, at least fly it at half staff. What we need is a Planetary Flag....it used to be light blue, the planet in white, surrounded by a laurel wreath.......unfortunately, that one doesn't really work anymore. How about a white flag with a black band across it--a fess? Or a black whale, representing all sentient species?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

I say, each person do what you feel moved to do. We are all going to express the same sentiments in different ways.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM

I am flying flags as a symbol of solidarity with our fire department, police department, hospitals, sanitation workers, and the volunteers from all over the world who are putting their lives in danger while trying to save anyone who may have survived Tuesday's nightmare. I gave one to the owner of our local grocery store and asked him to put it up. He immediately walked over to a fireman who was picking up supplies provided by the market - both had tears in their eyes.
Despite the polls, I don't want war or vengeance. I do not want to watch families from another country suffer the way the people of NYC are suffering. The flag right now is a symbol of survival, recovery, continuity.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Deda
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM

I'm trying to remember the words to "Last night I had the strangest dream", in which the dream is one of universal peace declared by all nations -- I remember that the chorus included the line "and (drums?) and flags and uniforms were scattered on the ground". As a kid I used to listen to Pete Seeger's version, and it made the first connection for me between flags and war. Our side are good guys and we rally around OUR Flag, which is right and true; YOUR side are the BAD guys and you have that OTHER, WEIRDO Flag, which is wrong and false. Years later, in the 70s, I saw a production of the musical "Hair" and they handed out a questionnaire to the audience; we were supposed to agree or disagree with a lot of statements, including "A flag is just a piece of cloth." I 'spect we've all had warm fuzzy feelings about that symbol on the 4th of July or Memorial Days. It reminds us of what we like about where we come from. But it locks people out and incites rage just as easily and often as it inspires, and it can be used to manipulate, to prevent reason. I don't think we have to give up Flags, but I do think we have to recognize that they have a very troubling kind of power and symbolism.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

Sorcha, there is this one, which has been around for a while, more about the environment, but I think it is fine for this, too. If you click the History link, you'll see a good piccie of it at this site. Here is some info on it:

Earth Flag...the symbol of a new millennium

Since it's creation in 1969 by John McConnell, the Earth Flag has been presented to US Presidents, foreign dignitaries, and leaders from all over the globe.

"The earth will continue to regenerate its life sources only as long as we and all the peoples of the world do our part to conserve its natural resources. It is a responsibility which every human being shares. Through voluntary action, each of us can join in building a productive land in harmony with nature." - President Gerald Ford, 1975 Earth Day Proclamation.

Inspired by the striking first photographs of the earth taken during America's historic Apollo 11 Space Mission in 1969, Earth Flag flies at the United Nations, Mir Space Station and at the North and South Poles. The QE2 flew the Earth Flag on a cruise carrying Earth patriots such as Isaac Azimov, Carl Sagan and Burl Ives. Renowned anthropologist, Dr. Margaret Mead was so deeply committed to the Earth Flag that she carried what she called "the flag for all people" with her everywhere she appeared. Flown alone or as a compliment to another flag, the Earth Flag is a symbol of global and environmental awareness. There seems to be a growing commitment to restructure our way of living, marked by an emphasis on conservation. Earth Day Celebrations provide us an opportunity to reflect on our individual and global relationship with our planet.

According to a Gallup International Study in 1995, George Gallup, Jr. reports, "People around the world appear ready to shift from short-term to long-term thinking regarding the environment and economic growth. Furthermore, populaces seem to becoming more aware of the need for individuals to take responsibility for the environment, and they're ready to see themselves as part of the problem." We have the ability now to be part of the solution.

Margaret Mead once said, "The Earth Flag is my symbol of the task before us all. Only in the last quarter of my life have we come to know what it means to be custodians of the future of the Earth - to know that unless we care, unless we check the rapacious exploitations of our Earth and protect it, we are endangering the future of our children and our children's children. We did not know this before, except in little pieces. People knew that they had to take care of their own...but it was not until we saw the picture of the earth, from the moon, that we realized how small and how helpless this planet is - something that we must hold in our arms and care for". Displaying the Earth Flag reminds us each to care for our planet and protect its resources.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

Yea,kat. That works.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM

Here's the pledge that goes with it:

The Earth Pledge

I pledge to protect the Earth,

And to respect the web of life upon it,

and to honor the dignity,

Of every member of our global family.

One planet, One people, One world, in harmony,

With peace, justice, and freedom for all.

and, here is another I just found, written for the new millennium:

"I pledge allegiance to the health
of the United World of the Universe,
and to the earth on which we stand.
One planet, born of Love,
Indivisible
With rights, and responsibilities
for all"
by Ginni Clemmens ** No copyright


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

$45 for a 2'x3'.....I think I can handle that......can do.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

My family moved from Canada to New York State in 1958. Shortly after moving into a bungalow in a small town (Mottville, New York) we decided to fly a Canadian flag that we had brought with us. We didn't have any huge important reason for doing so, we just thought it would look nice, and maybe be interesting to our American neighbours.

It was up for about 1/2 a day, when two of our neighbours came over, and in a not very friendly way informed us that it was "illegal" to fly a foreign flag in the USA. I don't think they had a clue whose flag it was...maybe they thought it was Russian! The old red ensign was mostly red, after all, with a small Union Jack in the top left corner.

I have no idea if they were right about the illegality issue (I doubt it), but their hostility was palpable. We took down that flag and never showed it outside the house again while resident in the USA. Do you know how that feels? Can you imagine?

I returned to Canada in 1969. Sometimes I visit the USA. When I drive back north into Canada I sometimes sing the Canadian national anthem...can't seem to help myself. And I find tears in my eyes.

And guess what? There are lots of American flags and other foreign flags flying here in Canada. No one objects to that.

What the hell is it that makes you guys think you invented freedom?

As for wanting to fly your own flag as a patriotic gesture...fine with me...but try learning something about the rest of the world too. We all value freedom just as much as you do.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Whassamatta you folks? This isn't the world! There is no world government (and if there is I hope it is long after I'm dead).

I'm proudly flying my flag at half-staff and cannot help but wonder what has happened to those of you who are ashamed to display it. What country are you citizens of? What country collects your taxes? What country provides you protection? What country offers you more freedome than any other country on earth?

Being a "Folkie" does not require that you give up your citizenship.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

Doug - I cannot and will not fault your patriotism.

But it is simply popular mythology...this notion that the USA "offers you more freedome than any other country on earth". That is positively and absolutely not true.

Furthermore, a World Government, if instituted on the basis of genuine equality, respect for cultural integrity, and full democratic freedoms...would make our present violent and fragmented world look as brutal and primitive as the stone age in comparison.

Therefore it is something we should all work for if at all possible, through international cooperation, gradual disarmament of all nations, and common brotherhood of all peoples. I pray for it.

In the meantime, I remain a patriotic Canadian, but my hopes and dreams are for the entire world, not just Canada.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM

LH: What the hell is it that makes you guys think you invented freedom?

Did you ask that of your neighbors? No one here told you you can't fly a foreign flag. Here in Jackson Heights, people fly their countries' flags all the time without question. A symbol of their national pride.

Right now, the firemen and police in NYC are desperate for support. My flag is helping them probably more than the cookies. I repeat: "The flag right now is a symbol of survival, recovery, continuity."


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

I have read some of the comments posted abt "Fly The Flag". What's wrong with some of these people..? We are not, nor will we ever be, a global community, as long as humans are human. We belong to a certain place, with a very certain heritage. It's not just the United States and our way of life that has been attacked; it's a victory of evil people with evil intent... I know that if you want to believe that all people are basically good and we should all just get along together, you are living in a dream world! A lot of people who are performers, entertainers, singers, writers, poets, are looking for what is true and what is real. When it is right under your nose, sometimes you can't even see it. To prefer to live in a dream world, where "peace through music" lives only on bumper stickers, is to refuse to see that a violent, evil act deserves to be condemned and punished, and that there must be a response; to fight against it, to draw together as a country united against the threat of destruction. There are some people that will not be reasoned with. And just because you don't believe the truth doesn't make it any less true....


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM

SINSULL - I don't think we (Canada) invented freedom. We have, however, managed to maintain it, as has the United States thus far, along with quite a few other countries.

I have not seen the kind of aggressive jingoism in Canada that I have frequently seen in the United States, but that is based upon subtler causes than the mere existence of non-existence of basic social freedoms...you could write a 5,000 page book analyzing the reasons behind it, if you had the time.

I think that many cultures all over this world have made significant contributions to freedom. The British culture, the French culture, the American culture, the Native American culture, the Chinese culture (though not in modern times...), the Greek culture, the Roman culture, the Celtic culture, and on and on and on. Virtually all cultures have made significant efforts in that direction at some time or another. They each tend to rave on about their own accomplishments and ignore those of all the others...or pay them very slight lip service...the Magna Carta may get a brief mention if anyone is still teaching world history out there.

Yes, I believe that there are foreign flags in Jackson Heights. Good. It doesn't change the fact that my family had a nasty experience in Mottville in 1958, and that I was picked on and harassed for being Canadian while growing up in American schools, and asked many times why I did not become an American citizen...we had green cards (landed immigrant status). As if it was the only sane and decent thing to do...

I have never heard any ordinary Canadian citizen say or even imply that his country invented freedom, nor do I harbour such a conceit. I have met so many Americans who appear to think that their country invented freedom that I would term it as verging on a national obsession.

Must the stating of an unpleasant truth mean that I am automatically damning everything you stand for? I am not.

I think that your flying of the flag to support your firemen and police is an excellent thing to do, and therefore I fully support it, as I am sure it does encourage and hearten them. And I believe they need all the support they can get at this time. Obviously. Cookies too, hot drinks, a shoulder to cry on, whatever it takes.

The papers here said today that as many as 500 Canadians may have died in Tuesday's attacks. I mourn all the casualties, regardless of national origin.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

I fly the flag of my country at half-mast in mourning for ALL who died in this terrible tragedy. For those of you who prefer to be "citizens of the Earth", that's your choice. For those who prefer black ribbon (very PC) thats YOUR choice. For those who think that flying the national colors is jingoistic, you are entitled to your opinion.
Who will you call on to defend you when you, personally, are attacked?

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 PM

L.H.: I, too, mourn all the casualties. Because it was the World Trade Center many nations of the world had offices there. Their lives are no less valuable than American lives.

A "New World Order" may be Niverna to you. To me, it ain't.

Our form of government, while not perfect, suits me just fine.

Our judicial system, while not perfect, suits me just fine, and I'm not ready to turn judicial decisions affecting the United States and it's citizens to ANY world court. Just my opinion, of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

At the Battle of Cold Harbor, VA in June of 1864, the long lines of Union Infantry lined up to assault General Robert E. LEE's well entrenched Army of Northern Virginia. Controversy continues as to which side, if any, was the "good" side, and which the "bad".

Veterans of a War already much too long, and much too bloody (about 660,000 Americans perished in it between 1861 -1865), the Soldiers in blue knew that the frontal assault was doomed before it began, and few of them were likely to survive. Passing out little slips of paper - probably the wrappers off of ammunition packets - they wrote their names, Units, and where they were from on them, then pinned them on to each others backs so that their bodies might be identified and Loved ones at home would know how, and where they died. Then the bugles sounded, the Color Guard with their aprox. 6-foot square silk Battle Flags, one Stars-and-Stripes "National" and another distinctive State or Federal "Regimental", stepped out 6 paces in advance of the line... and they went in shoulder to shoulder, 14 inches between front and rear ranks, to History and hell. One of those Battle-Flags was carried by Sgt. George Varnum BALL of Co. "F", 25th Mass. Volunteer Infantry. He had volunteered for a job for which the average life expectancy in Battle was about 8 minutes, he loved his Country and remained dedicated to his percieved duty to serve and defend it - not unlike, probably, the Boys in gray waiting for them on the other side of 12-foot high earthworks. He could not bring himself to kill any more of those he came to see as unfortunate adversaries, despite any idealogical differences they might have had, since he realized that they were, after all, fellow Americans.

We are not sure where the bullet struck him; family ledgend suggests the left shoulder. As he fell, clutching the flag, another Soldier grabbed the Colors and tore them out of Sgt. Ball's hands. Advancing another 50 feet or so, this Soldier met a hail of fire from a concentrated Confederate volley, falling "..wrapped in the shredded remains of the Flag, being unrecognizable as having been a Human Being".

No truce was allowed by LEE for 3 days, while the maimed and suffering lay out in the field begging for water, mercy, or death. Anything that moved, including unarmed stretcher - bearers, were shot. Finally, Lee relented and teams went out to recover the mostly dead; after 3 days in the hot VA sun, the stench of rotting flesh had become overwhelming to both Armies. As they were preparing to bury our Ancestor, he moaned, much to the surprise of his burial detail. Transfered to a Feild Hospital, he was not expected to live long... but after 3 days he started to come out of his coma. As his left fist slowly relaxed, they found what at first was thought to be a large, nearly black blood clot... but when the Orderly cleaned it out, he found that it was a ragged swatch of red silk about 7" X 5"; the end of one of those red stripes. That relic remains in the Family, the bullet holes and bloodstains still visable. A photo of it was submitted to the Curator of the Boston State Museum a few years ago, and we are told that it matches a missing section of stripe from what remains of the Old 25th Mass. National Colors. That legacy is probably the main reason that I am a Civil-War Reenactor today, and active in the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, a Patriotic Fraternal Order formed to carry on the mission of the G.A.R. in the 1880's.

Now I celebrate the freedom my fellow Citizens enjoy in flying, displaying etc. whatever flag or symbol seems to express your particular passion or identity, communal or individual. I feel badly for the Canadian contributor who had that unfortunate experience with the two dolts who were, by the way, totally bogus about the "leagality" of flying his Canadian flag at his temporary American residence. I don't consider that kind of intolerance particulary "American" at all, but of course not everyone subscribes to my definition of that term. Here in our Maine home town, I have seen the red-and-yellow flag of the PRC proudly hung outside of an upscale home. Now I'd be interested in how long one of your "Mother Earth" or black-whale banners would stay up over your mud hut (unless you were one of the Ruling Elite of course)in North Korea, Beijing, or Havannah. I don't really know, not having been to any of those Eutopian Commonwealths recently; perhaps they'd be OK with it. Please let me know how well it is recieved once you have set up housekeeping in one of those (or another) "People's Paradises". Shucks, run your bloomers up the pole and salute 'em, for all I care... but please don't pour out your contempt in overt desicration on "Old Glory" in my presence, or you are apt to see a side of me that only comes out about once in 15 or 20 years. According to the few who have wittnessed that, it is not at all pleasant, and even in my typically jolly mood, I stand as ready as ever to mingle my blood, if need be, with that of Sgt. BALL and other Forefathers before and since within those venerable and cherished folds of Red, White, and Blue.
If any of these superior intellects and enlightened spirits in here find that to be particularly "offensive", then so be it. We are no longer going to be manipulated and controlled by those who take "offence" at anything with which they do not aggree or are able to control.

Tolerate this;

"Oh we'll rally from the East, and we'll gather from the West;

Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom;

And we'll prove a loyal crew to the Land we love the best;

Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom!

UNITED Forever; HURRAH, Boys, HURRAH !

Hoist up the Banner -

the STRIPES and the STARS;

For We'll RALLY 'ROUND THE FLAG, Boys,

Rally once again;

SHOUTING the BATTLE CRY of FREEDOM ! "

...

(I have tweaked the chorus a bit to reflect our "getting beyond" the catastrophic division which afflicted our adolecent Nation when the song was written by George F. ROOT in 1863. I'm working of a few "updated" verses as well. Remainder of original lyrics, as I recall, can be found on the Digitrad DB.) Without Liberty, there is no Peace.

Without diligence, and Courage, and duty, and recognition of and committment and accountability to our Creator, there is little Liberty, and that not for long. I don't know much about this "Allah" of the Taliban, but the God I have encountered and try to worship and serve, is described as the Author and essence of Light, Life, Hope, and most significantly, IMHO,.. Love. But make no mistake about it; He (oops, I just offended somebody again... O well..) is also the essence of Justice.

Alas; just when is the season to bless, and when to curse, and when to forgive and embrace, and when to draw the sword and smite, I seldom have much of a clue.- As to this situation, it's tough to control old passions and listen to the frail voice of reason and the Spirit... but I'm trying, here. Are you?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

OK.
Comments?

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

Oh, By the way;

Anybody wanna guess which flag has been flying at half-staff at our house since Tuesday?

Here's a clue;... It ain't got no blubberin' WHALE on it!

And please don't get the impression from my refference to "Battle Cry of Freedom" above that I am neccessarily advocating all-out fix-bayonets and over-the-top-to-glory "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" War as an exclusive response to Tuesday's atrocity in NYC and DC. Battles come in many forms, don't we know, and one of our most common enemies seems to be ourselves.

But I am somewhat resigned to the probablility that Mars must have his way with another generation, as capricious Nature seems to demand. We (our generation) had our turn on the bloody old dance-floor, and it seems that the next quadrille of horrors has been called. As much as we would like to sit this one out, it may be a bit of a trick distinguishing the spectators from the participants in this one, and as usual, much of the blood exacted will be fairly innocent. And I think that we should know by now, if we haven't figured it out before, that there is going to be no safe haven this time - even in the streets of Amer-I-Kay. We get to see what it's been like in the rest of the World for much of the time.

Interesting times we live in, eh?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM

I am in the process of tracing my ancestors back before the Revolution. My great-grandparents were all, both sides, children of veterans of the War of 1812. My family has served in every war this country has ever had. We have many papers, including confederate money, a Union officer's cap and ball pistol, and a cannonball from the Civil War. Two of my uncles were highly decorated in WWII, one of them carrying shrapnel near his heart for the rest of his life, turned to alcoholism to deal with what he saw and did, finally taking his own life in his 70's because of the nightmares of his time as a youth defending our country.

Just because I would like to see peace and would like to encourage a WORLD of peace using a flag which shows OUR earth, a photograph taken from one of OUR spaceships, does NOT mean I rescind or scorn my citizenship of the United States. Just because I do not want young people to become cannon fodder, does not mean I do not treasure our country and its freedoms.

Where I live, flying the flag has become a symbol of extremism; it has been co-opted by those who still think of African Americans as niggers, who call Chinese "chinks" and who think gay men make great target practise. Do I want to join them in a show of patriotism? No, thank you, not THEIR kind of patriotism!

Funny, troll, I never figured a black ribbon as being "pc." I have a thank you card, sent to my grandmother by President Garfield's widow. The envelope and letter are outlined in a heavy black border. Black armbands have always been a symbol of mourning. Using a ribbon has become a way for anyone to show their support for various causes, including pink for breast cancer, red for awareness about drunk driving; are those too PC for your taste? My black ribbon on our tree, on my mailbox, and on my car let my neighbours and others know that I am in mourning for all of the loss of life; that I am sad and subdued. Pardon me if I don't feel like jumping up and down, waving a symbolic piece of cloth. I am offended that you have ridiculed the use of black ribbons.

Shame on you who ridicule those of us who would at least hope for something better than a world at war.

Sinsull, I respect your flying the flag in support of the firefighters and all. If I were living back in CT, or anywhere else back there, I would do the same.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:27 AM

I have been wearing a black arm band when I go out in public.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM

I hope, KL, that you are not under the impression that I am "dissing" your black ribbons as a tribute of mourning for the Victims of 9/11.
You might be interested in this "General Order #4" from the Sons of Union Veterans just recieved, (in part):

Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War General Orders No. 4

Series 2001 - 2002 George L. Powell, Commander-in-Chief 6114 Gillespie St. Philadelphia, PA 19135-3611 Telephone: 215-338-7558 CinCSUVCW@aol.com

On behalf of the National Organization of the Sons of the Union Veterans of the Civil War I want to offer the condolences of our membership to the victims and to the families of the victims involved and to express the outrage of all the members of our Order to the attack today on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, DC.

At this time we must come together as an Order and a Nation. I there by urge all Brothers to:

1. Fly the flag of our Country as a sign of solidarity with the innocent victims.

2. Attend the church of their choice and offer their own prayers for those involved in this terrible tragedy.

3. Those Brothers who are able to please donate blood.

I hereby order that all Camp and Department Charters be draped and all members are to drape their membership badge for the next 30 days in memory of the victims and their families.

("Draping" invoves the use of a black ribbon around the badge. I intend to comply.)

By Order of:

George L. Powell

Commander-in-Chief

Attest: Edward Krieser, PCinC National Secretary

*****************************

One person's "Patriot" is another's "Zealot", we suppose... but it seems that being "American" has been something to be ashamed of and "non PC" for so long, don't be surprised if a few of us come out of our closet with a bit of a "Bang!" once the latch is finally lifted..

Allegiance is a funny thing; in 1860 there were many who felt that their primary loyalty was to their State; any affiliation with the "Nation" was subordinate and secondary. Good people, too, like "Stonewall" Jackson, and "Marse Robert" E. LEE. I sense a similar shift here toward "World" allegance as preeminent to "National" identity

... or do I?

Perhaps I'm prejudiced; in the Bible I read, (archaic old Cretian that I am, I actually beleive that stuff. Imagine that!)..the only mention of a "One World Government" I see is in the "End Times", and it is not all that much of a good thing. Ultimately though, this totalitarian (and not all that "tolerant", either) "Government" gives way to a "Kingdom", and... well, you'll just have to read the Book.

If there's time.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

kat. It's just that the twist of ribbon has been used so many times that it has become pro forma; it's what you DO. Put on your ribbon of the appropriate color so everyone will know that you are supporting whatever it is that everyone else is supporting today.
I am not denegrating the use of the black ribbon. I have a hunk of it wrapped around the radio antenna on my van, but it does not -to me at least- show support for our country the way the flag does.
The black ribbon could be for the terrorists who died. There is no such ambiguity about the flag.
So wear the black armband or a fashionable little twist of ribbon on your lapel. But fly the flag too.
Mourn OUR dead. Not the suicides who murdered them.

troll

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM

This is the first time I have ever used ANY ribbon, of any colour in this fashion adn there is no doubt of whom I am mourning. Thank you both for the clarifications.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

kat: I fail to see why living in CT would prompt you to fly the flag more than living in Wyoming does. Enlighten me, por favor. Isn't Wyoming a part of the Union?

By the way, my GGrandfather fought in the Battle of San Jacinto. He came away with a saddle ornament that decorated Santa Anna's saddle which resides in the Alamo today. Did you have relatives in that conflict too?

As you know, I've been interested in family history too, and think ...oops. Talk about creep!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM

Oh. I forgot. I fly the flag because I feel an allegiance to my country, not as a salute to the firemen and medical personnel who are doing their job. I have great admiration for them, but that's not to be confused with love and respect for my country. Just thought I should clear that up.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM

Oh DUH. Another way we can help NOW is to organize a benefit concert for funds for relief. Ask the local unit of your relief agency if you may use their name in publicity. You will not only gather needed funds, you will have brought people together for something that will help them deal with this.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Now that, Friend WYSIWYG, is a great idea, methinks!
And that is also, dear Hearts, a prime example of the good old "American Way" as many of us used to know it.

Point conceeded to some of our detractors here and abroad: Not only has the US Flag flown proudly over scenes of incredible heroisim, sacrifice, and liberation... but it has, according to very credable historical records, presided over the occasional attrocity as well; Wounded Knee... Mei Lai... Waco.. to name a very few. Some here gathered might contend that all War is an "Attrocity", and this weary Veteran would not work up a great lather of sweat in arguing with you.

As it stirred in the crisp November breeze at Gettysburg and attended words which resonate down the halls of time to us still...

"...OF the People; By the People; and FOR the People...", perhaps that flag could detect the lingering stench of the decomposing dead of the previous July still wafting on that breeze. Around 30 thousand of them, perhaps - I'm not sure if anyone knows how many for sure - not to mention hundreds if not thousands of horses. They said that for years afterwards, the grass and wildflowers grew most verdantly in little splotches and streaks here and there where the pools and rivulets of American blood had flowed, and formed, and stood ... American bleeding American... and all for "God and Country", and "Freedom".

Whose "Freedom", from what?

Whose "Country"? Which "Country"?

Why?

So in other words, perhaps true and legitimate "Patriotisim" might include an honest modicum of reflection... and repentance. Perhaps as well as for fortitude and resolve, we might pray for forgiveness, and a healty dose of humility as well.

In the early 1800's, John Quincy Adams (as I recall - could look it up) wrote something to the effect of:

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants; for that is it's natural manure (fertilizer).".

It appears that the innocent blood of Mommies, Daddies, and dear wee Bairnies will serve just as well in times such as these, as will the blood of the Terrorists who required it of them for whatever cause compelled them to do such a heinous thing. And we dread the scenes yet before us, Friends, for lo; the "manuring" has only just begun.

***************************************************

Only last Saturday (September 8th, 2001), at an encampment of the 3rd Maine sponsored by the Freeport Historical Society, our Camp of the SUVCW held a "Flag Disposal Ceremony" to respectfully destroy worn-out or damaged American flags by the traditional and officially reccomended Congressional "Flag Code" method of burning.

After the Brothers of the SUV and Ladies of the Auxillary and Daughters of Veterans and Reenactors took turns depositing one of the folded Colors in the fire containment as surrounding Comrades saluted each one, members of the public "audience" were invited to come forward and consign one of the flags to the flames in memory of some relative or Loved One who had served, or struggled, or in some cases made the "supreme sacrifice" in order to keep that old flag flying, and for those of us who under it's folds seek shelter.

Hesitantly at first, then one after another they came; men, and women, and boys and girls. And they remembered the GG Grandfather of the 20th Maine in the Civil War, and the Grandfather in WW-I, and the Uncle, or Father, or Brother in WW-II or Korea, or Veitnam, or the Nurses who fought to staunch the blood, or soothe the burns, or the Workers back home who worked long, hard hours, and went without... and worried, and prayed, and all too often greived. And not infrequently was the dropping of the tatterd banner into the consuming flames attended with the unexpected tear.

Do we dare suppose that by these all too frequent purgings of fire and blood, this much maligned and sullied Old Flag might at length rise again, cleansed of it's shame and rebuke by the fire of God's Mercy and Grace on the Altar of confession and repentance? Might those of us who by choice or circumstance find ourselves beneath it be able to set aside our differences and come to some common consensus as to what being "American" is all about?

And might that definition perhaps embrace something which is Noble, and Just, and Worthy, and greater and grander than any one of us? Might it include a natural and wholistic sense of Honor, and Decency? Competition without predation? Opportunity without exploitation? Dependancy upon God and one another only to the extent required by nature and an orderly civilization, where Liberty and innocence are not only suffered to exist in harmony with one another, but to flourish?

Might these stripes and these stars once again rise above the smoke of battle as they once did at Fort MacHenry "...by the rocket's red glare..." and catch the cherished and long-awaited light of a new and better tomorrow, where once again it might wave over "...The Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave..."?

?... One Nation, under God, With Liberty, and Justice, for All.?

Dare we dream such dreams, my Brothers... and Sisters, and Beloved little Children?

They did.

**********************************************************

The flag hangs limply from halfway up it?s staff this morning, drenched in a soft September rain. Which, in dripping silently from a lower corner causes it strangely seem to weep.

Our Flag hangs silent, and wet, and still this Morning...

And waits.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: RangerSteve
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM

I'm flying my flag. If you don't, OK. I'm not going to complain or find fault with you. Please feel free to extend to same courtesy to me.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Fuck the red, white and blue. Black is the colour of my true love's hair; especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning.

(sorry but all this bigdick patriotism amid the stench of rotting corpses seems inapropriate)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Jaque, I believe it was Jefferson. I'll check with Skeptic.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

I just had to bring my flag in. The wind from this storm is really whipping things around outside.
I'll hang it in my front window.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM

Like I said, everyone do what you feel moved to do, in your own way.

The only American flag I own is a miniature Betsy Ross.

Like Uncle Jacque, I too am a Civil War reenactor, and in keeping with that tradition, I am making red-white-and-blue ribbon cockades, something ladies on both sides of that conflict did to show their support. Mister and I each have one on today and I intend to make several more over the weekend.

That's my way. It is no better or no worse than anyone else's way. Ain't that what America is about anyhow? That we can one and all show support in any way we choose?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants; for that is it's natural manure (fertilizer)."

To which I say, ca. two hundred years later, NO! Fly the flag if you like, but don't give me old romantic bullshit about what war really is. I know you know because many of you are veterans, but all this kind of talk is the blather which stirs people up and then we get headed in the same, never-ending round of war and losing our children.

I say the Tree of Liberty needs a new fertilizer; one which will nurture Peace.

Doug, I thought I made it clear: in Wyoming, IMO, flying the flag means one is part of the ultra-conservatives who, as I said before, are full of prejudices and who espouse beliefs which I consider to be anathema to what America is all about. I, in no way, want to be associated with that lot.

Were I still in CT or MA, I would gladly hang up my flag which my grandmother bought me when I was about 11. Why? Because it would be considered more a symbol of what I love America for: diversity, pulling together, respect, etc.

Sorry, I mispoke, as far as I know none of my immediate relatives, on either side, were in the Spanish-American War.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Doug, and others, this might help in understanding where I have come from. It is one of the earliest of my published op/ed, from 1995:

Hypocritical patriots burn liberty

As a young child growing up in Casper, I was taught a reverent respect for the flag of the United States. In school, we saluted it, hands over our hearts, as we recited the pledge of allegiance everyday. At fair and rodeo time, while watching the parade, we always stood and saluted whenever the flag passed by. There was a fear of great retribution if we did not; our young minds had no trouble in coming up with imagined apocalyptic consequences for anyone who dared to be so oafish and disrespectful.

When the sixties and early seventies came around, we found our voices of early adulthood; learned to question authority; and, some even dared to burn the flag. The flag became a renewed symbol of our freedom to dissent - the freedom our country was founded on. That it still rose proud and tall was a testament to our right to free speech.

We had committed the unthinkable through protests, peaceful and violent; yet, the flag remained our talisman of liberty, even as it burned.

Sadly, the feeling of pride has diminished. Our country has reached the stage of life where it is no longer novel as an infant, trying as a teen, nor mighty in the righteousness of young maturity. With age has come a jaded disillusionment; a loss of ideals; a lack of faith and respect in our leaders and government, even in each other.

With this miasma of reality has come the lack of education of our children. This year while at the parade, I still stood as the flag went by. My hand automatically crossed my heart in the old familiar gesture of reverence. Yet, I felt only shock and dismay as I observed the young toddlers, preschool children and other youths who neither stood nor saluted our flag. Where were the so-called patriotic parents, teachers, role models of these children?

Why did these young Americans not know or were not taught the expected response as the flag was marched down the avenue?

It is ironic the winner of this year's parade was a float that consisted of a Christian cross wrapped in the red, white and blue of our flag. Not only did this float blur beyond recognition the separation church and state; it made a non-vocal declaration that ours is a Christian-only country.

Will these people who would have us all blindly follow their religious tenets, all be hauled into jail and court for desecration of the flag through their irreverent use of it as a cross-draper? What of the parade watchers who wore the flag as shirts or the beach goer who sports a micro-bikinii of Old Glory?

While our Republican Congress works at a feverish pace to undo most of the good which has been accomplished in our country over the past 40 years, one of the worst things they could do is to establish an amendment which prohibits flag-burning/free speech.

Until a child is taught the basic steps of dance, they cannot master the choreography of life. Without early instruction in the meaning of our flag and how to show proper respect, how can we expect anyone to grow up understanding what a powerful symbol of dissent burning the flag is? How can they understand the depth of feeling, the utter despair, the hopelessness one must feet to commit such an irrevocable expression of discontent?

Of course, without proper guidance when young, our children could become a willing and apathetic constituency; a pliable following for those who would end our right to free speech; in agreement without thought with whatever the political agenda may be.

Until children understand the great symbology of a piece of cloth and the colors which run through it, they will never understand why it is so important to preserve our right to burn the flag in protest.

Instead of desecrating the flag by wrapping themselves in the perceived patriotic folds of a constitutional amendment, our Congresspeople should be ashamed of their wholesale assault on our freedoms. Through rhetorical posturing, their seeming patriotism is a sickening display of rampant carnage; a trampling on and rendering asunder of our Constitution.

Saluting the flag, standing as it goes by - these are the basic steps any American child should learn. To burn the flag is an intricate dance of many years; a passionate display of extreme patriotism which even our forefathers/mothers would understand.

© 1995 Kathleen LaFrance


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

well said.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Peg,
First, my sympathies for your loss, from the bottom of my heart. I can't imagine what you're feeling so I'm not going to try to guess or to pretend that I know how you feel. We all however are grieving and will continue to do so for quite some time. Some of us have found comfort in flying the flag. I am sad that patriotism in any form has gotten to be so "uncool". I wore a red shirt today, blue pants and white sneakers to work as part of a show your colors kind of plan. I can't give blood due to medications I'm taking. We have a relief fund here at work to support the workers, rescuers, and the families that have experienced the ultimate loss. I gave to that but I still felt empty. Forgive me, but wearing red, white and blue helped me cope today along with all the others in this building that did the same. We're all trying to find comfort in our own ways. To each their own....Take care, I truely wish that there was something I could do to ease YOUR pain, but I fear there is nothing.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

Peg. I just read your last post. I am sorrier than any words can express. Please forgive any distress any of my posts may have caused.
I shall pray that both of us can find peace.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

The historical (and often long time) meaning of certain symbols can easily be co-opted, especially these days, and come to represent narrower purposes.

When the new Canadian flag supplanted the old one in the sixties, many continued to fly the old one (very British in design) as a protest against liberal immigration policies. "Their Canada" was becoming multi-racial and the traditions that they had grown up with were fast disappearing. Flying the old "British style" flag was their way of protesting. It certainly wasn't a "welcoming" jesture to new Canadians.

In Quebec, the blue "Fleur de Lys" flag had always represented pride in Quebec, but certainly not hatred of Canada, until the sixties when it became almost exclusively the symbol of separation.

When I pass by a house (or tavern) here that's flying an Irish flag, and then a block away see another with the flag of Northern Ireland, I have no idea whether the motives of the occupants are simply nostalgia for their old home turf, or whether because of the huge current negative press, one or both are symbolically saying "fuck you" to the other. Fortunately I don't care, but I know lots who do...and they take sides.

In America, obviously the 'Battle Flag' of the South has caused great controversy, even though 'The battle' was 150 years ago.

Feeling that an important symbol has been co-opted in a negative way must make you feel like shit.

Oh, one more thing comes to mind. I believe (and I'm not one hundred percent sure about this) that the little town of Swastica Ontario KEPT it's name throughout WW2 (many German names were changed) and refused to let Hitler co-opt their name and symbol. Must have got a lot of flack though.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Well, folks, the flag incident in Mottville happened when I was a very innocent and wide-eyed 10 year old kid...and it scared me for a long time afterwards. I had not the slightest expectation of such a reaction from people to the flag of my country or of any country. I'd have to say that most of the people were VERY conservative in that town...at least our neighbours were...I think they were still in the Joe McCarthy mindset.

However, I did not pick a very timely moment to harp on the incident, because this has been a hellish week for both Americans and Canadians, and people are trying to pull themselves together in the face of it.

Therefore, in reflecting upon that, I wish to apologize to anyone whose feelings I hurt in my postings above. That was not my intention.

- LH


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