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Fly the FLAG!!!

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GUEST 12 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM
gus C 12 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM
Sorcha 12 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM
Liz the Squeak 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM
Jelly bean 12 Sep 01 - 05:02 AM
InOBU 12 Sep 01 - 05:57 AM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM
GeorgeH 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM
Mrrzy 12 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM
Kim C 13 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
SINSULL 13 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM
Deda 13 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM
SINSULL 13 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,Mary Z. 13 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM
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Little Hawk 13 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM
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Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM
RangerSteve 14 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM
Peg 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM
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Troll 17 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM
Bert 17 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM
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Subject: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM

Show encouragment

Fly the FLAG....put a light on it, or behind it...24/7 .


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM

Guest,
Listen to "WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE " by Dylan. As much as I have been argueing with folks on my "Binladdin must die" thread, This is about The Human race not the United States flag, Fuck Patriotism, This is about the value and quality of life in general, for everyone,Including those unfortunately close to Binladden. They are members of Family's just like New Yorkers.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM

Better to wear a black band for the planet/race........I am.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

It's jingoistic behaviour like flag waving and banner carrying that starts these things in the first place.....

Mourn for the people, not the country. The country will always be there, people won't.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jelly bean
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:02 AM

I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed - its the poeple we should be thinking about not flag waving - I too am wearing black Sorcha - kind regards Ann


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:57 AM

Put flags away and pray from Peace. From downtown New York, Larry and Genie


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

A black ribbon on the tree in front, until justice is done by law and reason. When the cotton fabric I used wears out I will use plastic bags. They last a long time.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for every response to the initial post in this thread. For the first time since first hearing of this terrible act I feel there just may still be hope that all humankind can move forward and move closer together.

G.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM

Black ribbons going up at home as soon as I find suitable fabric, should have done it yesterday.

If where you work has a flag, get them to half-staff it out of respect for the fallen, be they Americans or not. Mourning is universal.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

If you feel the need to fly the US flag, at least fly it at half staff. What we need is a Planetary Flag....it used to be light blue, the planet in white, surrounded by a laurel wreath.......unfortunately, that one doesn't really work anymore. How about a white flag with a black band across it--a fess? Or a black whale, representing all sentient species?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

I say, each person do what you feel moved to do. We are all going to express the same sentiments in different ways.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM

I am flying flags as a symbol of solidarity with our fire department, police department, hospitals, sanitation workers, and the volunteers from all over the world who are putting their lives in danger while trying to save anyone who may have survived Tuesday's nightmare. I gave one to the owner of our local grocery store and asked him to put it up. He immediately walked over to a fireman who was picking up supplies provided by the market - both had tears in their eyes.
Despite the polls, I don't want war or vengeance. I do not want to watch families from another country suffer the way the people of NYC are suffering. The flag right now is a symbol of survival, recovery, continuity.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Deda
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM

I'm trying to remember the words to "Last night I had the strangest dream", in which the dream is one of universal peace declared by all nations -- I remember that the chorus included the line "and (drums?) and flags and uniforms were scattered on the ground". As a kid I used to listen to Pete Seeger's version, and it made the first connection for me between flags and war. Our side are good guys and we rally around OUR Flag, which is right and true; YOUR side are the BAD guys and you have that OTHER, WEIRDO Flag, which is wrong and false. Years later, in the 70s, I saw a production of the musical "Hair" and they handed out a questionnaire to the audience; we were supposed to agree or disagree with a lot of statements, including "A flag is just a piece of cloth." I 'spect we've all had warm fuzzy feelings about that symbol on the 4th of July or Memorial Days. It reminds us of what we like about where we come from. But it locks people out and incites rage just as easily and often as it inspires, and it can be used to manipulate, to prevent reason. I don't think we have to give up Flags, but I do think we have to recognize that they have a very troubling kind of power and symbolism.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

Sorcha, there is this one, which has been around for a while, more about the environment, but I think it is fine for this, too. If you click the History link, you'll see a good piccie of it at this site. Here is some info on it:

Earth Flag...the symbol of a new millennium

Since it's creation in 1969 by John McConnell, the Earth Flag has been presented to US Presidents, foreign dignitaries, and leaders from all over the globe.

"The earth will continue to regenerate its life sources only as long as we and all the peoples of the world do our part to conserve its natural resources. It is a responsibility which every human being shares. Through voluntary action, each of us can join in building a productive land in harmony with nature." - President Gerald Ford, 1975 Earth Day Proclamation.

Inspired by the striking first photographs of the earth taken during America's historic Apollo 11 Space Mission in 1969, Earth Flag flies at the United Nations, Mir Space Station and at the North and South Poles. The QE2 flew the Earth Flag on a cruise carrying Earth patriots such as Isaac Azimov, Carl Sagan and Burl Ives. Renowned anthropologist, Dr. Margaret Mead was so deeply committed to the Earth Flag that she carried what she called "the flag for all people" with her everywhere she appeared. Flown alone or as a compliment to another flag, the Earth Flag is a symbol of global and environmental awareness. There seems to be a growing commitment to restructure our way of living, marked by an emphasis on conservation. Earth Day Celebrations provide us an opportunity to reflect on our individual and global relationship with our planet.

According to a Gallup International Study in 1995, George Gallup, Jr. reports, "People around the world appear ready to shift from short-term to long-term thinking regarding the environment and economic growth. Furthermore, populaces seem to becoming more aware of the need for individuals to take responsibility for the environment, and they're ready to see themselves as part of the problem." We have the ability now to be part of the solution.

Margaret Mead once said, "The Earth Flag is my symbol of the task before us all. Only in the last quarter of my life have we come to know what it means to be custodians of the future of the Earth - to know that unless we care, unless we check the rapacious exploitations of our Earth and protect it, we are endangering the future of our children and our children's children. We did not know this before, except in little pieces. People knew that they had to take care of their own...but it was not until we saw the picture of the earth, from the moon, that we realized how small and how helpless this planet is - something that we must hold in our arms and care for". Displaying the Earth Flag reminds us each to care for our planet and protect its resources.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

Yea,kat. That works.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM

Here's the pledge that goes with it:

The Earth Pledge

I pledge to protect the Earth,

And to respect the web of life upon it,

and to honor the dignity,

Of every member of our global family.

One planet, One people, One world, in harmony,

With peace, justice, and freedom for all.

and, here is another I just found, written for the new millennium:

"I pledge allegiance to the health
of the United World of the Universe,
and to the earth on which we stand.
One planet, born of Love,
Indivisible
With rights, and responsibilities
for all"
by Ginni Clemmens ** No copyright


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

$45 for a 2'x3'.....I think I can handle that......can do.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

My family moved from Canada to New York State in 1958. Shortly after moving into a bungalow in a small town (Mottville, New York) we decided to fly a Canadian flag that we had brought with us. We didn't have any huge important reason for doing so, we just thought it would look nice, and maybe be interesting to our American neighbours.

It was up for about 1/2 a day, when two of our neighbours came over, and in a not very friendly way informed us that it was "illegal" to fly a foreign flag in the USA. I don't think they had a clue whose flag it was...maybe they thought it was Russian! The old red ensign was mostly red, after all, with a small Union Jack in the top left corner.

I have no idea if they were right about the illegality issue (I doubt it), but their hostility was palpable. We took down that flag and never showed it outside the house again while resident in the USA. Do you know how that feels? Can you imagine?

I returned to Canada in 1969. Sometimes I visit the USA. When I drive back north into Canada I sometimes sing the Canadian national anthem...can't seem to help myself. And I find tears in my eyes.

And guess what? There are lots of American flags and other foreign flags flying here in Canada. No one objects to that.

What the hell is it that makes you guys think you invented freedom?

As for wanting to fly your own flag as a patriotic gesture...fine with me...but try learning something about the rest of the world too. We all value freedom just as much as you do.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Whassamatta you folks? This isn't the world! There is no world government (and if there is I hope it is long after I'm dead).

I'm proudly flying my flag at half-staff and cannot help but wonder what has happened to those of you who are ashamed to display it. What country are you citizens of? What country collects your taxes? What country provides you protection? What country offers you more freedome than any other country on earth?

Being a "Folkie" does not require that you give up your citizenship.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

Doug - I cannot and will not fault your patriotism.

But it is simply popular mythology...this notion that the USA "offers you more freedome than any other country on earth". That is positively and absolutely not true.

Furthermore, a World Government, if instituted on the basis of genuine equality, respect for cultural integrity, and full democratic freedoms...would make our present violent and fragmented world look as brutal and primitive as the stone age in comparison.

Therefore it is something we should all work for if at all possible, through international cooperation, gradual disarmament of all nations, and common brotherhood of all peoples. I pray for it.

In the meantime, I remain a patriotic Canadian, but my hopes and dreams are for the entire world, not just Canada.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM

LH: What the hell is it that makes you guys think you invented freedom?

Did you ask that of your neighbors? No one here told you you can't fly a foreign flag. Here in Jackson Heights, people fly their countries' flags all the time without question. A symbol of their national pride.

Right now, the firemen and police in NYC are desperate for support. My flag is helping them probably more than the cookies. I repeat: "The flag right now is a symbol of survival, recovery, continuity."


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

I have read some of the comments posted abt "Fly The Flag". What's wrong with some of these people..? We are not, nor will we ever be, a global community, as long as humans are human. We belong to a certain place, with a very certain heritage. It's not just the United States and our way of life that has been attacked; it's a victory of evil people with evil intent... I know that if you want to believe that all people are basically good and we should all just get along together, you are living in a dream world! A lot of people who are performers, entertainers, singers, writers, poets, are looking for what is true and what is real. When it is right under your nose, sometimes you can't even see it. To prefer to live in a dream world, where "peace through music" lives only on bumper stickers, is to refuse to see that a violent, evil act deserves to be condemned and punished, and that there must be a response; to fight against it, to draw together as a country united against the threat of destruction. There are some people that will not be reasoned with. And just because you don't believe the truth doesn't make it any less true....


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM

SINSULL - I don't think we (Canada) invented freedom. We have, however, managed to maintain it, as has the United States thus far, along with quite a few other countries.

I have not seen the kind of aggressive jingoism in Canada that I have frequently seen in the United States, but that is based upon subtler causes than the mere existence of non-existence of basic social freedoms...you could write a 5,000 page book analyzing the reasons behind it, if you had the time.

I think that many cultures all over this world have made significant contributions to freedom. The British culture, the French culture, the American culture, the Native American culture, the Chinese culture (though not in modern times...), the Greek culture, the Roman culture, the Celtic culture, and on and on and on. Virtually all cultures have made significant efforts in that direction at some time or another. They each tend to rave on about their own accomplishments and ignore those of all the others...or pay them very slight lip service...the Magna Carta may get a brief mention if anyone is still teaching world history out there.

Yes, I believe that there are foreign flags in Jackson Heights. Good. It doesn't change the fact that my family had a nasty experience in Mottville in 1958, and that I was picked on and harassed for being Canadian while growing up in American schools, and asked many times why I did not become an American citizen...we had green cards (landed immigrant status). As if it was the only sane and decent thing to do...

I have never heard any ordinary Canadian citizen say or even imply that his country invented freedom, nor do I harbour such a conceit. I have met so many Americans who appear to think that their country invented freedom that I would term it as verging on a national obsession.

Must the stating of an unpleasant truth mean that I am automatically damning everything you stand for? I am not.

I think that your flying of the flag to support your firemen and police is an excellent thing to do, and therefore I fully support it, as I am sure it does encourage and hearten them. And I believe they need all the support they can get at this time. Obviously. Cookies too, hot drinks, a shoulder to cry on, whatever it takes.

The papers here said today that as many as 500 Canadians may have died in Tuesday's attacks. I mourn all the casualties, regardless of national origin.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

I fly the flag of my country at half-mast in mourning for ALL who died in this terrible tragedy. For those of you who prefer to be "citizens of the Earth", that's your choice. For those who prefer black ribbon (very PC) thats YOUR choice. For those who think that flying the national colors is jingoistic, you are entitled to your opinion.
Who will you call on to defend you when you, personally, are attacked?

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 PM

L.H.: I, too, mourn all the casualties. Because it was the World Trade Center many nations of the world had offices there. Their lives are no less valuable than American lives.

A "New World Order" may be Niverna to you. To me, it ain't.

Our form of government, while not perfect, suits me just fine.

Our judicial system, while not perfect, suits me just fine, and I'm not ready to turn judicial decisions affecting the United States and it's citizens to ANY world court. Just my opinion, of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

At the Battle of Cold Harbor, VA in June of 1864, the long lines of Union Infantry lined up to assault General Robert E. LEE's well entrenched Army of Northern Virginia. Controversy continues as to which side, if any, was the "good" side, and which the "bad".

Veterans of a War already much too long, and much too bloody (about 660,000 Americans perished in it between 1861 -1865), the Soldiers in blue knew that the frontal assault was doomed before it began, and few of them were likely to survive. Passing out little slips of paper - probably the wrappers off of ammunition packets - they wrote their names, Units, and where they were from on them, then pinned them on to each others backs so that their bodies might be identified and Loved ones at home would know how, and where they died. Then the bugles sounded, the Color Guard with their aprox. 6-foot square silk Battle Flags, one Stars-and-Stripes "National" and another distinctive State or Federal "Regimental", stepped out 6 paces in advance of the line... and they went in shoulder to shoulder, 14 inches between front and rear ranks, to History and hell. One of those Battle-Flags was carried by Sgt. George Varnum BALL of Co. "F", 25th Mass. Volunteer Infantry. He had volunteered for a job for which the average life expectancy in Battle was about 8 minutes, he loved his Country and remained dedicated to his percieved duty to serve and defend it - not unlike, probably, the Boys in gray waiting for them on the other side of 12-foot high earthworks. He could not bring himself to kill any more of those he came to see as unfortunate adversaries, despite any idealogical differences they might have had, since he realized that they were, after all, fellow Americans.

We are not sure where the bullet struck him; family ledgend suggests the left shoulder. As he fell, clutching the flag, another Soldier grabbed the Colors and tore them out of Sgt. Ball's hands. Advancing another 50 feet or so, this Soldier met a hail of fire from a concentrated Confederate volley, falling "..wrapped in the shredded remains of the Flag, being unrecognizable as having been a Human Being".

No truce was allowed by LEE for 3 days, while the maimed and suffering lay out in the field begging for water, mercy, or death. Anything that moved, including unarmed stretcher - bearers, were shot. Finally, Lee relented and teams went out to recover the mostly dead; after 3 days in the hot VA sun, the stench of rotting flesh had become overwhelming to both Armies. As they were preparing to bury our Ancestor, he moaned, much to the surprise of his burial detail. Transfered to a Feild Hospital, he was not expected to live long... but after 3 days he started to come out of his coma. As his left fist slowly relaxed, they found what at first was thought to be a large, nearly black blood clot... but when the Orderly cleaned it out, he found that it was a ragged swatch of red silk about 7" X 5"; the end of one of those red stripes. That relic remains in the Family, the bullet holes and bloodstains still visable. A photo of it was submitted to the Curator of the Boston State Museum a few years ago, and we are told that it matches a missing section of stripe from what remains of the Old 25th Mass. National Colors. That legacy is probably the main reason that I am a Civil-War Reenactor today, and active in the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, a Patriotic Fraternal Order formed to carry on the mission of the G.A.R. in the 1880's.

Now I celebrate the freedom my fellow Citizens enjoy in flying, displaying etc. whatever flag or symbol seems to express your particular passion or identity, communal or individual. I feel badly for the Canadian contributor who had that unfortunate experience with the two dolts who were, by the way, totally bogus about the "leagality" of flying his Canadian flag at his temporary American residence. I don't consider that kind of intolerance particulary "American" at all, but of course not everyone subscribes to my definition of that term. Here in our Maine home town, I have seen the red-and-yellow flag of the PRC proudly hung outside of an upscale home. Now I'd be interested in how long one of your "Mother Earth" or black-whale banners would stay up over your mud hut (unless you were one of the Ruling Elite of course)in North Korea, Beijing, or Havannah. I don't really know, not having been to any of those Eutopian Commonwealths recently; perhaps they'd be OK with it. Please let me know how well it is recieved once you have set up housekeeping in one of those (or another) "People's Paradises". Shucks, run your bloomers up the pole and salute 'em, for all I care... but please don't pour out your contempt in overt desicration on "Old Glory" in my presence, or you are apt to see a side of me that only comes out about once in 15 or 20 years. According to the few who have wittnessed that, it is not at all pleasant, and even in my typically jolly mood, I stand as ready as ever to mingle my blood, if need be, with that of Sgt. BALL and other Forefathers before and since within those venerable and cherished folds of Red, White, and Blue.
If any of these superior intellects and enlightened spirits in here find that to be particularly "offensive", then so be it. We are no longer going to be manipulated and controlled by those who take "offence" at anything with which they do not aggree or are able to control.

Tolerate this;

"Oh we'll rally from the East, and we'll gather from the West;

Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom;

And we'll prove a loyal crew to the Land we love the best;

Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom!

UNITED Forever; HURRAH, Boys, HURRAH !

Hoist up the Banner -

the STRIPES and the STARS;

For We'll RALLY 'ROUND THE FLAG, Boys,

Rally once again;

SHOUTING the BATTLE CRY of FREEDOM ! "

...

(I have tweaked the chorus a bit to reflect our "getting beyond" the catastrophic division which afflicted our adolecent Nation when the song was written by George F. ROOT in 1863. I'm working of a few "updated" verses as well. Remainder of original lyrics, as I recall, can be found on the Digitrad DB.) Without Liberty, there is no Peace.

Without diligence, and Courage, and duty, and recognition of and committment and accountability to our Creator, there is little Liberty, and that not for long. I don't know much about this "Allah" of the Taliban, but the God I have encountered and try to worship and serve, is described as the Author and essence of Light, Life, Hope, and most significantly, IMHO,.. Love. But make no mistake about it; He (oops, I just offended somebody again... O well..) is also the essence of Justice.

Alas; just when is the season to bless, and when to curse, and when to forgive and embrace, and when to draw the sword and smite, I seldom have much of a clue.- As to this situation, it's tough to control old passions and listen to the frail voice of reason and the Spirit... but I'm trying, here. Are you?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

OK.
Comments?

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

Oh, By the way;

Anybody wanna guess which flag has been flying at half-staff at our house since Tuesday?

Here's a clue;... It ain't got no blubberin' WHALE on it!

And please don't get the impression from my refference to "Battle Cry of Freedom" above that I am neccessarily advocating all-out fix-bayonets and over-the-top-to-glory "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" War as an exclusive response to Tuesday's atrocity in NYC and DC. Battles come in many forms, don't we know, and one of our most common enemies seems to be ourselves.

But I am somewhat resigned to the probablility that Mars must have his way with another generation, as capricious Nature seems to demand. We (our generation) had our turn on the bloody old dance-floor, and it seems that the next quadrille of horrors has been called. As much as we would like to sit this one out, it may be a bit of a trick distinguishing the spectators from the participants in this one, and as usual, much of the blood exacted will be fairly innocent. And I think that we should know by now, if we haven't figured it out before, that there is going to be no safe haven this time - even in the streets of Amer-I-Kay. We get to see what it's been like in the rest of the World for much of the time.

Interesting times we live in, eh?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM

I am in the process of tracing my ancestors back before the Revolution. My great-grandparents were all, both sides, children of veterans of the War of 1812. My family has served in every war this country has ever had. We have many papers, including confederate money, a Union officer's cap and ball pistol, and a cannonball from the Civil War. Two of my uncles were highly decorated in WWII, one of them carrying shrapnel near his heart for the rest of his life, turned to alcoholism to deal with what he saw and did, finally taking his own life in his 70's because of the nightmares of his time as a youth defending our country.

Just because I would like to see peace and would like to encourage a WORLD of peace using a flag which shows OUR earth, a photograph taken from one of OUR spaceships, does NOT mean I rescind or scorn my citizenship of the United States. Just because I do not want young people to become cannon fodder, does not mean I do not treasure our country and its freedoms.

Where I live, flying the flag has become a symbol of extremism; it has been co-opted by those who still think of African Americans as niggers, who call Chinese "chinks" and who think gay men make great target practise. Do I want to join them in a show of patriotism? No, thank you, not THEIR kind of patriotism!

Funny, troll, I never figured a black ribbon as being "pc." I have a thank you card, sent to my grandmother by President Garfield's widow. The envelope and letter are outlined in a heavy black border. Black armbands have always been a symbol of mourning. Using a ribbon has become a way for anyone to show their support for various causes, including pink for breast cancer, red for awareness about drunk driving; are those too PC for your taste? My black ribbon on our tree, on my mailbox, and on my car let my neighbours and others know that I am in mourning for all of the loss of life; that I am sad and subdued. Pardon me if I don't feel like jumping up and down, waving a symbolic piece of cloth. I am offended that you have ridiculed the use of black ribbons.

Shame on you who ridicule those of us who would at least hope for something better than a world at war.

Sinsull, I respect your flying the flag in support of the firefighters and all. If I were living back in CT, or anywhere else back there, I would do the same.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:27 AM

I have been wearing a black arm band when I go out in public.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM

I hope, KL, that you are not under the impression that I am "dissing" your black ribbons as a tribute of mourning for the Victims of 9/11.
You might be interested in this "General Order #4" from the Sons of Union Veterans just recieved, (in part):

Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War General Orders No. 4

Series 2001 - 2002 George L. Powell, Commander-in-Chief 6114 Gillespie St. Philadelphia, PA 19135-3611 Telephone: 215-338-7558 CinCSUVCW@aol.com

On behalf of the National Organization of the Sons of the Union Veterans of the Civil War I want to offer the condolences of our membership to the victims and to the families of the victims involved and to express the outrage of all the members of our Order to the attack today on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, DC.

At this time we must come together as an Order and a Nation. I there by urge all Brothers to:

1. Fly the flag of our Country as a sign of solidarity with the innocent victims.

2. Attend the church of their choice and offer their own prayers for those involved in this terrible tragedy.

3. Those Brothers who are able to please donate blood.

I hereby order that all Camp and Department Charters be draped and all members are to drape their membership badge for the next 30 days in memory of the victims and their families.

("Draping" invoves the use of a black ribbon around the badge. I intend to comply.)

By Order of:

George L. Powell

Commander-in-Chief

Attest: Edward Krieser, PCinC National Secretary

*****************************

One person's "Patriot" is another's "Zealot", we suppose... but it seems that being "American" has been something to be ashamed of and "non PC" for so long, don't be surprised if a few of us come out of our closet with a bit of a "Bang!" once the latch is finally lifted..

Allegiance is a funny thing; in 1860 there were many who felt that their primary loyalty was to their State; any affiliation with the "Nation" was subordinate and secondary. Good people, too, like "Stonewall" Jackson, and "Marse Robert" E. LEE. I sense a similar shift here toward "World" allegance as preeminent to "National" identity

... or do I?

Perhaps I'm prejudiced; in the Bible I read, (archaic old Cretian that I am, I actually beleive that stuff. Imagine that!)..the only mention of a "One World Government" I see is in the "End Times", and it is not all that much of a good thing. Ultimately though, this totalitarian (and not all that "tolerant", either) "Government" gives way to a "Kingdom", and... well, you'll just have to read the Book.

If there's time.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

kat. It's just that the twist of ribbon has been used so many times that it has become pro forma; it's what you DO. Put on your ribbon of the appropriate color so everyone will know that you are supporting whatever it is that everyone else is supporting today.
I am not denegrating the use of the black ribbon. I have a hunk of it wrapped around the radio antenna on my van, but it does not -to me at least- show support for our country the way the flag does.
The black ribbon could be for the terrorists who died. There is no such ambiguity about the flag.
So wear the black armband or a fashionable little twist of ribbon on your lapel. But fly the flag too.
Mourn OUR dead. Not the suicides who murdered them.

troll

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM

This is the first time I have ever used ANY ribbon, of any colour in this fashion adn there is no doubt of whom I am mourning. Thank you both for the clarifications.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

kat: I fail to see why living in CT would prompt you to fly the flag more than living in Wyoming does. Enlighten me, por favor. Isn't Wyoming a part of the Union?

By the way, my GGrandfather fought in the Battle of San Jacinto. He came away with a saddle ornament that decorated Santa Anna's saddle which resides in the Alamo today. Did you have relatives in that conflict too?

As you know, I've been interested in family history too, and think ...oops. Talk about creep!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM

Oh. I forgot. I fly the flag because I feel an allegiance to my country, not as a salute to the firemen and medical personnel who are doing their job. I have great admiration for them, but that's not to be confused with love and respect for my country. Just thought I should clear that up.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM

Oh DUH. Another way we can help NOW is to organize a benefit concert for funds for relief. Ask the local unit of your relief agency if you may use their name in publicity. You will not only gather needed funds, you will have brought people together for something that will help them deal with this.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Now that, Friend WYSIWYG, is a great idea, methinks!
And that is also, dear Hearts, a prime example of the good old "American Way" as many of us used to know it.

Point conceeded to some of our detractors here and abroad: Not only has the US Flag flown proudly over scenes of incredible heroisim, sacrifice, and liberation... but it has, according to very credable historical records, presided over the occasional attrocity as well; Wounded Knee... Mei Lai... Waco.. to name a very few. Some here gathered might contend that all War is an "Attrocity", and this weary Veteran would not work up a great lather of sweat in arguing with you.

As it stirred in the crisp November breeze at Gettysburg and attended words which resonate down the halls of time to us still...

"...OF the People; By the People; and FOR the People...", perhaps that flag could detect the lingering stench of the decomposing dead of the previous July still wafting on that breeze. Around 30 thousand of them, perhaps - I'm not sure if anyone knows how many for sure - not to mention hundreds if not thousands of horses. They said that for years afterwards, the grass and wildflowers grew most verdantly in little splotches and streaks here and there where the pools and rivulets of American blood had flowed, and formed, and stood ... American bleeding American... and all for "God and Country", and "Freedom".

Whose "Freedom", from what?

Whose "Country"? Which "Country"?

Why?

So in other words, perhaps true and legitimate "Patriotisim" might include an honest modicum of reflection... and repentance. Perhaps as well as for fortitude and resolve, we might pray for forgiveness, and a healty dose of humility as well.

In the early 1800's, John Quincy Adams (as I recall - could look it up) wrote something to the effect of:

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants; for that is it's natural manure (fertilizer).".

It appears that the innocent blood of Mommies, Daddies, and dear wee Bairnies will serve just as well in times such as these, as will the blood of the Terrorists who required it of them for whatever cause compelled them to do such a heinous thing. And we dread the scenes yet before us, Friends, for lo; the "manuring" has only just begun.

***************************************************

Only last Saturday (September 8th, 2001), at an encampment of the 3rd Maine sponsored by the Freeport Historical Society, our Camp of the SUVCW held a "Flag Disposal Ceremony" to respectfully destroy worn-out or damaged American flags by the traditional and officially reccomended Congressional "Flag Code" method of burning.

After the Brothers of the SUV and Ladies of the Auxillary and Daughters of Veterans and Reenactors took turns depositing one of the folded Colors in the fire containment as surrounding Comrades saluted each one, members of the public "audience" were invited to come forward and consign one of the flags to the flames in memory of some relative or Loved One who had served, or struggled, or in some cases made the "supreme sacrifice" in order to keep that old flag flying, and for those of us who under it's folds seek shelter.

Hesitantly at first, then one after another they came; men, and women, and boys and girls. And they remembered the GG Grandfather of the 20th Maine in the Civil War, and the Grandfather in WW-I, and the Uncle, or Father, or Brother in WW-II or Korea, or Veitnam, or the Nurses who fought to staunch the blood, or soothe the burns, or the Workers back home who worked long, hard hours, and went without... and worried, and prayed, and all too often greived. And not infrequently was the dropping of the tatterd banner into the consuming flames attended with the unexpected tear.

Do we dare suppose that by these all too frequent purgings of fire and blood, this much maligned and sullied Old Flag might at length rise again, cleansed of it's shame and rebuke by the fire of God's Mercy and Grace on the Altar of confession and repentance? Might those of us who by choice or circumstance find ourselves beneath it be able to set aside our differences and come to some common consensus as to what being "American" is all about?

And might that definition perhaps embrace something which is Noble, and Just, and Worthy, and greater and grander than any one of us? Might it include a natural and wholistic sense of Honor, and Decency? Competition without predation? Opportunity without exploitation? Dependancy upon God and one another only to the extent required by nature and an orderly civilization, where Liberty and innocence are not only suffered to exist in harmony with one another, but to flourish?

Might these stripes and these stars once again rise above the smoke of battle as they once did at Fort MacHenry "...by the rocket's red glare..." and catch the cherished and long-awaited light of a new and better tomorrow, where once again it might wave over "...The Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave..."?

?... One Nation, under God, With Liberty, and Justice, for All.?

Dare we dream such dreams, my Brothers... and Sisters, and Beloved little Children?

They did.

**********************************************************

The flag hangs limply from halfway up it?s staff this morning, drenched in a soft September rain. Which, in dripping silently from a lower corner causes it strangely seem to weep.

Our Flag hangs silent, and wet, and still this Morning...

And waits.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: RangerSteve
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM

I'm flying my flag. If you don't, OK. I'm not going to complain or find fault with you. Please feel free to extend to same courtesy to me.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Fuck the red, white and blue. Black is the colour of my true love's hair; especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning.

(sorry but all this bigdick patriotism amid the stench of rotting corpses seems inapropriate)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Jaque, I believe it was Jefferson. I'll check with Skeptic.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

I just had to bring my flag in. The wind from this storm is really whipping things around outside.
I'll hang it in my front window.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM

Like I said, everyone do what you feel moved to do, in your own way.

The only American flag I own is a miniature Betsy Ross.

Like Uncle Jacque, I too am a Civil War reenactor, and in keeping with that tradition, I am making red-white-and-blue ribbon cockades, something ladies on both sides of that conflict did to show their support. Mister and I each have one on today and I intend to make several more over the weekend.

That's my way. It is no better or no worse than anyone else's way. Ain't that what America is about anyhow? That we can one and all show support in any way we choose?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants; for that is it's natural manure (fertilizer)."

To which I say, ca. two hundred years later, NO! Fly the flag if you like, but don't give me old romantic bullshit about what war really is. I know you know because many of you are veterans, but all this kind of talk is the blather which stirs people up and then we get headed in the same, never-ending round of war and losing our children.

I say the Tree of Liberty needs a new fertilizer; one which will nurture Peace.

Doug, I thought I made it clear: in Wyoming, IMO, flying the flag means one is part of the ultra-conservatives who, as I said before, are full of prejudices and who espouse beliefs which I consider to be anathema to what America is all about. I, in no way, want to be associated with that lot.

Were I still in CT or MA, I would gladly hang up my flag which my grandmother bought me when I was about 11. Why? Because it would be considered more a symbol of what I love America for: diversity, pulling together, respect, etc.

Sorry, I mispoke, as far as I know none of my immediate relatives, on either side, were in the Spanish-American War.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Doug, and others, this might help in understanding where I have come from. It is one of the earliest of my published op/ed, from 1995:

Hypocritical patriots burn liberty

As a young child growing up in Casper, I was taught a reverent respect for the flag of the United States. In school, we saluted it, hands over our hearts, as we recited the pledge of allegiance everyday. At fair and rodeo time, while watching the parade, we always stood and saluted whenever the flag passed by. There was a fear of great retribution if we did not; our young minds had no trouble in coming up with imagined apocalyptic consequences for anyone who dared to be so oafish and disrespectful.

When the sixties and early seventies came around, we found our voices of early adulthood; learned to question authority; and, some even dared to burn the flag. The flag became a renewed symbol of our freedom to dissent - the freedom our country was founded on. That it still rose proud and tall was a testament to our right to free speech.

We had committed the unthinkable through protests, peaceful and violent; yet, the flag remained our talisman of liberty, even as it burned.

Sadly, the feeling of pride has diminished. Our country has reached the stage of life where it is no longer novel as an infant, trying as a teen, nor mighty in the righteousness of young maturity. With age has come a jaded disillusionment; a loss of ideals; a lack of faith and respect in our leaders and government, even in each other.

With this miasma of reality has come the lack of education of our children. This year while at the parade, I still stood as the flag went by. My hand automatically crossed my heart in the old familiar gesture of reverence. Yet, I felt only shock and dismay as I observed the young toddlers, preschool children and other youths who neither stood nor saluted our flag. Where were the so-called patriotic parents, teachers, role models of these children?

Why did these young Americans not know or were not taught the expected response as the flag was marched down the avenue?

It is ironic the winner of this year's parade was a float that consisted of a Christian cross wrapped in the red, white and blue of our flag. Not only did this float blur beyond recognition the separation church and state; it made a non-vocal declaration that ours is a Christian-only country.

Will these people who would have us all blindly follow their religious tenets, all be hauled into jail and court for desecration of the flag through their irreverent use of it as a cross-draper? What of the parade watchers who wore the flag as shirts or the beach goer who sports a micro-bikinii of Old Glory?

While our Republican Congress works at a feverish pace to undo most of the good which has been accomplished in our country over the past 40 years, one of the worst things they could do is to establish an amendment which prohibits flag-burning/free speech.

Until a child is taught the basic steps of dance, they cannot master the choreography of life. Without early instruction in the meaning of our flag and how to show proper respect, how can we expect anyone to grow up understanding what a powerful symbol of dissent burning the flag is? How can they understand the depth of feeling, the utter despair, the hopelessness one must feet to commit such an irrevocable expression of discontent?

Of course, without proper guidance when young, our children could become a willing and apathetic constituency; a pliable following for those who would end our right to free speech; in agreement without thought with whatever the political agenda may be.

Until children understand the great symbology of a piece of cloth and the colors which run through it, they will never understand why it is so important to preserve our right to burn the flag in protest.

Instead of desecrating the flag by wrapping themselves in the perceived patriotic folds of a constitutional amendment, our Congresspeople should be ashamed of their wholesale assault on our freedoms. Through rhetorical posturing, their seeming patriotism is a sickening display of rampant carnage; a trampling on and rendering asunder of our Constitution.

Saluting the flag, standing as it goes by - these are the basic steps any American child should learn. To burn the flag is an intricate dance of many years; a passionate display of extreme patriotism which even our forefathers/mothers would understand.

© 1995 Kathleen LaFrance


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

well said.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Peg,
First, my sympathies for your loss, from the bottom of my heart. I can't imagine what you're feeling so I'm not going to try to guess or to pretend that I know how you feel. We all however are grieving and will continue to do so for quite some time. Some of us have found comfort in flying the flag. I am sad that patriotism in any form has gotten to be so "uncool". I wore a red shirt today, blue pants and white sneakers to work as part of a show your colors kind of plan. I can't give blood due to medications I'm taking. We have a relief fund here at work to support the workers, rescuers, and the families that have experienced the ultimate loss. I gave to that but I still felt empty. Forgive me, but wearing red, white and blue helped me cope today along with all the others in this building that did the same. We're all trying to find comfort in our own ways. To each their own....Take care, I truely wish that there was something I could do to ease YOUR pain, but I fear there is nothing.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

Peg. I just read your last post. I am sorrier than any words can express. Please forgive any distress any of my posts may have caused.
I shall pray that both of us can find peace.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

The historical (and often long time) meaning of certain symbols can easily be co-opted, especially these days, and come to represent narrower purposes.

When the new Canadian flag supplanted the old one in the sixties, many continued to fly the old one (very British in design) as a protest against liberal immigration policies. "Their Canada" was becoming multi-racial and the traditions that they had grown up with were fast disappearing. Flying the old "British style" flag was their way of protesting. It certainly wasn't a "welcoming" jesture to new Canadians.

In Quebec, the blue "Fleur de Lys" flag had always represented pride in Quebec, but certainly not hatred of Canada, until the sixties when it became almost exclusively the symbol of separation.

When I pass by a house (or tavern) here that's flying an Irish flag, and then a block away see another with the flag of Northern Ireland, I have no idea whether the motives of the occupants are simply nostalgia for their old home turf, or whether because of the huge current negative press, one or both are symbolically saying "fuck you" to the other. Fortunately I don't care, but I know lots who do...and they take sides.

In America, obviously the 'Battle Flag' of the South has caused great controversy, even though 'The battle' was 150 years ago.

Feeling that an important symbol has been co-opted in a negative way must make you feel like shit.

Oh, one more thing comes to mind. I believe (and I'm not one hundred percent sure about this) that the little town of Swastica Ontario KEPT it's name throughout WW2 (many German names were changed) and refused to let Hitler co-opt their name and symbol. Must have got a lot of flack though.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Well, folks, the flag incident in Mottville happened when I was a very innocent and wide-eyed 10 year old kid...and it scared me for a long time afterwards. I had not the slightest expectation of such a reaction from people to the flag of my country or of any country. I'd have to say that most of the people were VERY conservative in that town...at least our neighbours were...I think they were still in the Joe McCarthy mindset.

However, I did not pick a very timely moment to harp on the incident, because this has been a hellish week for both Americans and Canadians, and people are trying to pull themselves together in the face of it.

Therefore, in reflecting upon that, I wish to apologize to anyone whose feelings I hurt in my postings above. That was not my intention.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Canadian flag
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM

I think that the story about the Canadian flag pretty much represents the difference between Americans and others in regards to attitudes about freedom. If the situation was reversed, the Americans would have told their neighbors to got to hell and would have kept their flag flying rather than obediantly lowering it and then whining about it for the next forty years. Or, if the Canadians had told other neighbors about the episode, their choice to fly a Canadian flag would have been defended. Thats why Americans are so vocal about freedom, because they are willing to talk the talk and walk the walk.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM

GUEST - You're quite right...we should've told 'em to go to hell, but it has more to do with my Mother than my nationality...she's the kind of person who will cut off her own nose and ears to please her neighbours (and hate them inside forever while doing it!). As for my Dad, he never thinks about anything except his business, and I doubt he gave it more than 30 seconds thought, if he gave it any thought at all. He may even have been away at the time, I don't quite remember.

He is definitely tough enough to tell the other guy to "go to hell" and defend his own rights, but it wasn't the kind of situation he gives any thought to. Now had it been a situation involving business, money, or real property, he would have gone out happily to fight the whole town. He never backs down.

As for me, I was ten years old.

Nevertheless, your point is not completely without relevance as a general observation. Americans are more vocal than Canadians on the whole, when it comes to their "rights".

Now Mexicans...try trampling on a Mexican's honor and he will as likely as not stick a knife in your guts right then and there. Life is cheap in Mexico.

I'm not exactly sure who is on the best track here, but it's good to know what to expect in one place or another, isn't it?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Canadian Flag
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

I think that your discussion of your Father's attitude toward the situation provides some more insight into American vs. Canadian attitudes regarding the value of freedom (as opposed to "business, money, or real property"). But, enough said. On a different note, you might want to rethink the blanket statement that "Life is cheap in Mexico." That type of stereotyping is at the root of a lot of Arab-bashing this week. However, even if that were true, an important point is that Americans (like your composite Mexican) will fight like hell for their own honor and freedom, but will generally stick theit neck out for others as well.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Hmmmm...well, my Dad is originally from Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't say he's a typical Czech, whatever that is. He's just himself, period.

I love the Mexicans as a people. They are very passionate. I would not recommend behaving foolishly down there. There is terrible poverty, and there are lots of heavily armed police who are IMO little more than criminal bully-boys in uniform (with, I'm sure, some notable exceptions to that). To say life is cheap there...well, it is compared to North America, but that doesn't in any way denigrate Mexicans in my eyes. They are a noble people.

Canadians are a moderate lot. It may have to do with the immense geography and sparse population, or it may have to do with a very peaceful domestic history in which there has been almost no civil conflict, and no "wild west" or "outlaw" period...the rule of law preceded settlement in the Canadian West and was very well maintained by the RCMP (Mounties), who went in ahead of the settlers.

We do, however, seem to make excellent soldiers, given the experience of both world wars, when Canadian troops distinguished themselves again and again, and were among the very best.

Darned if I know how it all adds up at the end of the day.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:29 PM

Little Hawk, it is NOT illegal to fly foreign flags in the US. The people who told you that are idiots. Now, there are rules of etiquette pertaining to the US flag, for instance, that if you fly the US flag along with any flag, the other flag isn't supposed to be higher, etc. But anyway, as I understand, those rules were invented and promoted by organizations like the American Legion and do not have the force of law.

It USED TO BE illegal to burn the US flag publicly, but the Supreme Court wisely overturned that law in, I think, 1993. (I remember I was in England when I got the news.)

On many occasions I have seen people display other flags right here in St. Paul. For example, an Irish pub I know displays the Irish flag, and a pub with a British theme flies a British flag. I've never heard of anyone objecting. I've seen private homes fly various flags, too.

At Holden Village, Washington, a Lutheran retreat center, every building flies the flag of a different country. I don't think any of them is American. It's helpful for visitors to identify which building is which, because many of them otherwise look alike. I'm sure they wouldn't do it if it were illegal or if many people were offended by it.

In fact, I think any law against flying a foreign flag would probably be unconstitutional. If you have a constitutional right to burn the American flag, I can't see why you wouldn't equally well have the constitutional right to display a foreign one. Even aliens living in the US have rights under the constitution.

Come to think of it, during the Elian Gonzalez affair, I remember seeing Cuban-Americans flying HUNDREDS of Cuban flags.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM

Peg - if you're still in here; It seems that "Pseudolus" and I are pretty much on the same page, here, and I think he just articulated it about as well as I could. My comments about those who use their taking "offence" in order to manipulate others were in no way intended to introduce any salt into wounds so greivously and recently inflicted such as yours.

Despite any differences we might otherwise have, you have my condolances... as well, it seems, as the thoughts, prayers, positive energy, comforting mantras etc. of most of the Civilized World. As unspeakably devistating as your pain surely is tonight, we can be sure that you - as well as the legions of your fellow victims of this treacherous act - are in the hearts and minds of people of all Nationalities, religions, colors, creed and language.

The candles my Wife and I carried out to the street at 7 PM tonight were as much for you and your lost Beloved as for anyone.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:52 PM

Actually, a flag that is being "retired" should be burned; reverently and with dignity.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

Tonight, my community came together with candles and flags.

Neighbors who had never met before were united across streets and blocks.

We talked, we shared our pain and prayers and hopes. Tomorrow, the neighborhood will be covered with flags.

The original posting by "GUEST" was me....I did not want my "reputation" to taint this thread.....there are some "pretty creepy folks within this thread" and THEY think they are RIGHT. Yellow is not my favorite color!

Sincerely, GARGOYLE


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

On the cover of this morning's St.Paul pioneer Press, there was a large photo of a US soldier, crouched on the ground, apparently sobbing, with a flag pulled over his shoulders like a cape and dragging on the ground. Now, I'm no patriot and it didn't really bother me, but it seemed pretty odd and disrespectful for a soldier to do that.

Oh, nad since it looks like you're around, Troll, and you seem to know about flag rituals, I'll ask you: I thought once a flag touches the ground, it has to be burned... Is that true? Just curious. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

Here's the soldier-draped-in-a-flag picture... For no real reason. Just because I CAN link to it.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

Yes.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM

According to the American Legion pamphlet on "Flag Etiquette", which contains the "United States Flag Code", Title 36, Chapter 10, US Code, Paragraphs 170-178, and commentary by the American Legion National Americanisim Commission. Actually now that I mention it, I think I'm supposed to be our Post's "Americanisim Officer", and to this day I'm not quite sure exactly what "Americanisim" is supposed to be all about, or what I'm supposed to be doing to advance it. But here goes a lame attempt, eh?:

The 1976 Congressional Revision of the Code stipulates that it is "simply a guideline" and that "no penalties are provided for violation..." The booklet goes on, however, to warn that "Misuse and improper display (like upside down on the arse of your jeans, I would imagine) will, however, most likely incur ridicule and harassment from those more familiar with these provisions." So there. (Sheesh!)

During the '60s and '70's, some Veteran's groups seemed to get a little anal-retentive about the "flag code" and arguably might have, shall we say, "gone overboard" with it on occasion, creating perhaps some lingering, popular misconceptions.

As to "touching the ground" (or anything beneath it), Ch. 176 (b) suggests that it should be avoided, but apparantly is no great sacralidge if it accidentilly happens. I think that some Military regulations impose consequences similar to what you describe, especially the Marine Corps - but I'm not sure about that. And yes, the proper way to dispose of a retired flag is by burning "in a dignified way"(k). We encourage people to turn them in when buying a new one at selected stores participating in the program (some offer discounts on a new flag for turn-in of a comparable old one), or to local Veteran's organizations. I have the fellows at the "recycling Center" (formerly the "Dump") look out for flags that might get pitched out in the trash, and they collect them for us. Once a year, the Sons of Union Veterans or the Legion conducts a fitting disposal ceremony, as I have described.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

I learned what I know about the treatment of the Flag from my Dad, a carer army officer so the "never touch the ground" thing may stem from that.
Thanks for the info.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM

Just to clarify; no my "true love" did not burn to death on Tuesday. (I was quoting the title of a traditional song) But there are are THOUSANDS of people whose loved ones DID burn to death. And I do feel that crowing about patriotism in loud voices that overshadow expressions of grief is in poor taste.

I do not mean to criticize anyone who is coping in the ways that work best for them. My objection is to those who at this time are much more interested in "kicking butt" and blathering about how great America is, instead of acknowledging the very human, direct efects of this tragedy. If wearing the colors of the flag helps you, as you are also giving blood and lighting candles and praying and hugging your children, it is certainly not my place to criticize that.

I have heard from a number of my loved ones who live and work in the city. But not all of them. I pray I am one of the bedraggled survivors who does not lose someone I treasure as a friend. But I do not know yet.

"Each man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

John Donne


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:45 AM

From: Peg Date: 14-Sep-01 - 11:03 AM Fuck the red, white and blue. Black is the colour of my true love's hair; especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning.

(sorry but all this bigdick patriotism amid the stench of rotting corpses seems inapropriate. Date: 15-Sep-01 - 12:20 AM

Just to clarify; no my "true love" did not burn to death on Tuesday. (I was quoting the title of a traditional song).

Right. Now which traditional song were you quoting that has as part of it's title; "especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning"?
I'm 60 years old and I've been around traditional music all my life. I cannot recall a song with that title.
To my way of thinking, I have seldom seen a more tasteless ploy to elicit sympathy and support for a position.
If you don't like "bigdick patrioism" and people flying the flag, say so. Everyone here would respect your right to your opinion.
I won't suggest that you apologize because I suspect that you wouldn't really understand why it was necessary.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM

Troll, stop being such an asshole.

"Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair" is a traditional song known by many (perhaps not by you; aparently your advanced age and vast experience are not so superior as you think). Perhaps the semi-colon should have tipped you off as to which words comprised the title.

I did NOT try to elicit sympathy or "support" nor was it a PLOY; you sick, arrogant dickhead.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:56 AM

I rest my case.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Yeah, and I rest MY case. Asshole.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM

Here's the Flag Code according to the American Legion. And here are the Legion's Flag FAQ's, one of which addresses the question asked earlier, whether a flag that touches the ground should be destroyed.

Note that the Legion officially supports the idea of a constitutional amendment to restore criminal penalties for "desecrating" the flag, which I do not support. While I can go along with most of the Legion's ideas about the flag, I strongly disagree with this position. You can't "desecrate" what was never sacred to begin with. Treating the flag as sacred seems dangerously close to idolatry to me.

The flag is a symbol, no more, no less. Flying it is a symbolic act, and burning it is a symbolic act. Symbolic acts are not in the same class with other kinds of acts. They are forms of communication, ways of communicating an idea. The only proper way to fight a bad idea is by promoting a better idea. Putting someone in jail for performing a symbolic act ought to be universally condemned as tyranny.

Lepus, I agree that the picture of the soldier wrapped in the flag was in bad taste.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM

I dunno. When I read it, I didn't think Peg was being literal with the "black is the colour of my true love's hair" reference. She cleared up the confusion. Nothing to get bent out of shape about...

Jim, yeah, it was pretty bizarre. Can't wait to read the letters in tomorrows paper, eh?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM

I've displayed my American flag on my house on a busy highway since I moved into this house over 13 years ago. I would display my flag if I lived in California, Texas, Wyoming, Arkansas, Virginia, New York, etc. I would not diplay my American flag if I lived in Canada, Argentina, the UK, Germany, India, Japan, etc.

I love the flag and all it represents. I try to follow etiquette and always bring it inside at night or during rain. Every time I diplay it I say a prayer for ________, ___________, and ___________, and a general prayer for every person who has lost his/her life for my country and for those presently serving. There are many.

I'm deeply offended by some of the comments above!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM

Peg, I think your 'initial' post was EXCEEDINGLY badly done...

Best let it drop, eh?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:27 AM

Thank you, Lepus.

I regret that anyone was confused or misled by that post. But to be accused of doing so deliberately by a war-mongering moron makes me want to puke.

I also want to say that I have been greatly moved by the prominent display of the American flag by OTHER nations yesterday. I saw this on the news and these displays all seemed borne of deep respect and solidarity.

I am still finding the rather militant display of the flag in the U.S. a bit disturbing however; I am not referring to those quietly carrying or erecting them; but those waving them madly as they march through the streets chanting, screaming "USA! USA!" as I saw happened in Boston's North End yesterday. Surely a more solemn ceremony on a day of mourning was what was called for. Carrying the flags in silence, for example.

Young people are enlisting in droves. I respect their courage. I fear for our future.

God help America.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:42 AM

Admirably done, IMO

(& I hope that you & 'troll' can make your peace with each other)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM

Jim - Yeah, I know it's not illegal to fly a foreign flag in the USA. It was an attitude we ran into back in 1958, not a legal situation. If we'd been in a different town with more pleasant neighbours, it probably would not have happened. The 2 guys who objected were most of the time so busy feuding with each other (across our backyard) that they didn't have energy left to fight with us. Thankfully. They were weird.

Best wishes,

Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

In my town we're twinned with towns in the Czech Republic and in France, so those flags are flown in the shopping centre all the time, along with the Union Jack. The European flag gets flown outside the Town Hall a lot of the time, and the flag of the UN, and I'm sure we'd fly the World Flag as well if we had it. And sometimes it's the Harlow Flag. All at half-mast this week.

Over in Tipperary last week there'd have been flags outside pretty well every house, and they'd have been the Tipperary Flag, because it was the All Ireland Hurling Final against Galway - and they'll still be there now, because Tipp won, and this weekend it's the Camogie final, which is the women's version of the game, and Tipp is in that too. But noone flies that flag because they hate any other county, and if anyone from Galway had been living in Tipp and chose to fly the Galway flag noone would have worried about that either.

Flags are a symbol that you love your country (for example) and if anyone ever flies a flag as a symbol that they hate some other country, or hate some other people, that is the only real way of desecrating it. And sadly, as katlaughing reminded us, there are people who do that sometimes, and in places where that happens to fly that flag would seem like sharing in that desecration.

I see they've got a World Flag T-shirt. I might get one of those, since I haven't got a flagpole.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

Paul from Hull;

Like I said, I had NO INTENTION whatsoever of misleading anyone, and I am hurt anyone would even think me capable of such a thing, let alone accuse me of doing it.

I do not feel a need to apologize for my initial post; as I said, I regret anyone's confusion as a result of it because adding to another's stress at this terrible time pains me. But I did not think it was something that was obviously meant in a literal way; especially among people familiar with traditional music...

My post above was not a reply to yours, Paul. But thanks, anyway.

I do not appreciate being told to let something DROP when there are clearly still people who harbor bad feelings about it. That makes it seem like I must slink away in shame because someone is still offended. And maybe some wil remain offended by my take on this (not my probem). But if they are offended because I have not been clear about where I stand, it is up to me to correct that.

I DID feel a need to clarify and detail my thoughts on the different sorts of flag waving and patriotism happening around me; because, in my opinion, some of it is appropriate, and some of it is not. But I am not opposed to the flag in general. I am happy for anything, symbolic or otherwise, that gives people comfort right now.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM

Peg, I knew you were not being literal in your intitial post, but I think, as soon as the messages of sympathy started, you should have come in and clarified. It went on too long without that, with people genuinely believng you'd had a personal loss. I think that is what might have offended and it could have been cleared up more quickly, had you posted immediately after the expresions of sympathy started.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

kat;

excuse me for HAVING A LIFE, but I did not SEE those messages of sympathy until I posted last night. I cleared it up as soon as I knew about the confusion.

If that is not good enough, I guess I deserve to be bitch-slapped some more for it.

Not everyone is at their computer for 16 hours a day...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

Sorry if I have made you feel uncomfortable Peg...

I just suggested that you drop it, but to my mind you have clarified you position & original intent very well, & I retract what I said about 'dropping' the matter.

Best wishes,

Paul


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:26 AM

Peg, can one express their opinion without you going off on them? I know we have all been on edge this week, but we don't need to get so nasty with one another. Whether you are on the computer or not, that was a provocative post and it would have been much better had you checked it earlier. That is all I am saying.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

PMs ?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:20 AM

PMs? or PMS???

;)

Paul from Hull, thanks, I just want to make sure I can communicate as well as possible right now. Not sure I can, but..

Kat, you implied I "let this go on too long" when I did not KNOW about it! Like I did so intentionally. I see that as an inappropriate accusation. Not an "opinion." And I see such an accusation as "nasty," too, thank you very much.

I have made it clear what I did and did not intend with that post; if people misinterpreted it, that is too bad and I have done what I can about it.

Expecting me to live at my computer JUST IN CASE someone gets their knickers in a knot about something I posted to a goddamned message board is ridiculous. Gee, I wish I could travel back in time and RESPOND MORE QUICKLY to posts that occurred while I was out having a life.

Shall I stop seeing friends and loved ones in this time of tragedy so I can monitor the Mudact 24-7? Would that make you happy?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

I am sorry if I sound so cranky. I just cannot get over being accused of lying about losing someone in this tragedy. That would be such a horrible thing for someone to do, no matter what their motivation. So forgive me if this stuff I am typing is overreaction (to anyone but Troll).


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

Peg, et al,
Over-reacting? Maybe - but what precedent is there for our reactions?
On this side of the Atlantic we have had our share of rubble, violent death and destruction, with the inevitable stark images of shattered buildings and broken lives; Guildford, Birmingham, Warrington, Bishopsgate, Enniskillen, Omagh and dozens more.
All of them have made an impact on our national consciousness, and all of them have led to cries for vengeance and retribution that inflamed rather than salved an age-old wound.
Those attrocities - and attrocities they were - cannot singly or together compare in enormity to what happened on Tuesday.
So there really is no yardstick for reaction - which for me is very worrying, as the rhetoric and bullshit flies and both the fond and the foolish reach for a flag in which to wrap themselves.
Time, maybe, to remember the wise words of someone else to whom both our countries have reason to give thanks - Tom Paine.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
So don't apologise m'dear. Not to me, at least!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

Little Hawk:"Now Mexicans...try trampling on a Mexican's honor and he will as likely as not stick a knife in your guts right then and there. Life is cheap in Mexico."

This is a sick, racist obscenity. Please think before you post.
Mary


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM

My guess is that a World Flag would have little appeal in Afghanistan. The fact is, the American Flag does represent a shared culture and shared values, and one that has little in common with other parts of the world. Until the World can be brought together in a shared vision, a World Flag is meaningless.

Today I fly the flag that was given to me at my Father's funeral, in honor of his service in the Second World War. I shall fly it in remembrance of him, and in sorrow for the loss of so many innocent victims in the recent tragedy, and in hope that we shall be wise and strong in the coming days.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

I didn't view the many pictures of people on TV waving flags and chanting U.S.A as encouraging military action myself. I viewed it as a symbol of solidarity, and that is what is going to be required in the days ahead. That's just my view, of course, and I am not criticizing anyone else for viewing it differently.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:16 PM

Peg, I apologize for my misinterpretation of the motives behind your initial post. Since you say my interpretation was wrong, I apologize.
However, the statement about your "true love" burning to death was not true and, although you say it was not meant literally I -and others- did not know that.
In your clarification post you expressed no regret that anyone might have been misled. That didn't come until later.
So I apologize again for my misinterpretation, and I accept your expression of regret that I and others were misled.
But YOU made a false statement (however pure your motives) and I see no reason why I should have to apologize for pointing it out.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM

Do whatever you want, Peg. It doesn't matter if it makes me happy or not. I do not look to you for my happiness. I know when I have suffered a great loss, such as when my mother died, I did check back here, often, to get what comfort I could from those who posted the condolences.

Oh yeah, I sit on my ass at the computer 16 hours a day and have no friends, no life, right? Your implications that some, who may spend more time on the computer than you, don't "have a life" are judgemental and prejudicial.

Now, I apologise for going off, too. but I will not apologise for my opinion. I agree with troll.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM

PMs = Personal Messages, in this case. Head to head conflicts are maybe better not on the threads, because it gets catching.

One problem with Mudcat time is that it sometime runs very fast. If you don't check the times, it can look like a long time has passed between two successive posts by the same person.

In this case it just over 24 hours between Peg's misleading post, and the one from her clarifying the situation. Only the posts are going so fast at this time, and what would normally be recognised as figurative language was in fact only too horribly plausible as a statement of literal fact. Emotions are very raw at present.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

Thanks Kevin. My last post was public because I was asked to make it so. Your analysis of the situation is quite probably correct.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

SINSULL - Maybe you're right. ("You're right from your side, I'm right from mine" - Dylan)

I did see more fights in Mexico (and really violent ones, sometimes with knives) in one short period of 3 months than I am used to seeing around here over the course of five or ten years, but...maybe I've just been lucky (around here, I mean).

I qualified it by saying that I have a great admiration for the Mexican people, which I do. No country is perfect, and every society has its flaws.

Life was cheap in Dodge City in the 1800's. Is that a racist statement? (Guess not. Ain't no one still alive from there to contest it! Whew!)

Middle-class North Americans have a strong tendency to be shopaholics and to eat junk food. Is that a racist statement?

Some places are more dangerous than others. Downtown Washington D.C. is far more dangerous than downtown Toronto, Canada. Is that a racist statement?

Is the stating of a plainly observable situation necessarily racist? I said "as likely as not"...meaning one Mexican might, while another might not...I have seen people pull knives in Mexico. I've also known plenty of those who I am quite sure would not do that.

Check the crime statistics for Mexico City. Check 'em for Washington D.C.

I don't expect to necessarily convince you of anthing, Mary, but I have noticed that we seem destined to butt heads for some reason, and that's unfortunate.

I know I am living in a world now where there are numerous constituencies of people around about whom you can make no public statement that might be deemed critical in any way by anyone else, even if you didn't intend it to be critical in the first place, and even if it's TRUE, without being accused of "racism" or "sexism" or some other "ism", and I am intimidated enough about that already to have no intention of even suggesting who those constituencies might be...

I call that a form of fascism. It is to silence people through fear, so that they dare not speak on certain subjects except to blandly parrot the officially accepted line...said line being promulgated by various groups with a chip on their shoulder, and an agenda that is self-serving and based on a cult of victimhood and innate moral superiority, not on a perception of human equality.

In the 60's and 70's I spoke out many times in defence of some of those groups, and tried to be one of those who helped them achieve equality. I now see many of their spokesmen and members caught up in a viciously reactive psychology that is based not on equality whatsoever, but on zenophobic hatred and thoughts of superiority. It's naked fascism in action, but it is not acknowledged as such.

No one dares to call it what it is, especially no one in the public arena, and this is a public forum. If you listen to the private conversations of ordinary people all over the place you will hear plenty that they will not dare to say publicly...and I am speaking of good and kindly inclined people who are not racists, indeed who have fought quietly for racial equality all their lives.

That's why I laugh at the notion that we are living in a "free" society. It's freer than some, all right, but it's got a long way to go.

As for Mexicans...I have always liked Mexicans and I regard them as fully equal in human value to me or you or anyone else in every sense. Not identical, but equal.

If any of this is still offensive, well, I will have to live with being thought of as "racist" by someone, I guess...

To succeed in never offending anyone can become a full time job, and a thankless one, but what is the reward for such a course of action, and what happens to one's own identity in the process?

"Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood" (not a Dylan quote)

Now, excuse me, I've got to move some furniture and stuff...

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Ladies, gentlemen, please let's not make a terrible situation worse by bickering. I'd like to see us all direct our thoughts toward those in need of our collective support right now.

I agree with DougR: I see the various demonstrations of patriotism as a means of achieving solidarity, as well as strengthening our resolve to end the nightmare of terrorism. If I could FIND an American flag for sale, I would buy it and display it, but every store is sold out and ordering more. So, until those orders come into the stores, I'm displaying the red-white-and-blue decorative flags I usually have out for Independence Day. Since I live in an apartment and can't display them in the yard or attach a flagpole to an outside wall, I am using tension bars to display them in my windows (and making sure my apartment is well-lit in the evenings!).


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM

Just because somethings wrong doesn't mean it's accurate to desribe it as Fascist, Little Hawk. Fascist means something else than that. Triumph of the will and all that stuff for example. It isn't just synonynmous with intolerance.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

Let me guess, LH. Some of your best friends are Mexicans...of course, you are very careful around them. Wouldn't want to get stuck with a knife.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Timbrel
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM

Right now I am flying flags on my house and car. I am flying it because this is a country in which i am free to disagree with my government when my moral responsibilities tell me to. Because so many have died to protect us. Because without the systems of government which I so casually dismissed as silly before have probably saved thousands more innocent lives. Because of the rescue workers, the volunteers, the people who have raided their grocery stores and medicine cabinets to gather the thousands of blankets, towels, toothbrushes, bars of soap and the like that I helped to sort at the local Red Cross last night I am flying it because I LOVE the people of this country, our optimism, willingness to help, strength in the face of fear. I love my family and my home, which are both in America. So many of my heroes -- Martin Luther King, Woody guthrie, Maya Angelou, Pete Seeger -- are Americans and have worked tirelessly to improve this country. Finally, there has come a call to display the flag which I cannot ignore.

I will fly the flag until (and I hhope this does not occur) I am ashamed to fly it, because of acts of hatred, bigotry, and small-mindedness, or because our government loses my support. That happened to a lot of us in the Gulf War. I plead, everyone, STAY sane, SPREAD sanity, and let us all display our flag with pride and hope. Don't defile it with shameful acts. The time for that has come to an end.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

kat: I was not implying you (or anyone else) does NOT have a life or that I have more of one; only that not everyone can be expected to monitor to and respond to posts as quickly as others seem to think they should. But it was a statement made in anger and I apologize if you thought I was judging you; I was not. But no one should assume that because a post is not responded to quickly enough to suit someone who checks in constantly, that the person being expected to respond is letting something go on too long; they may simply be away from their computers. Ya know? Out doing something else...as I was.

Troll; I made no false statement. I cleared it up. I can't help it if you still don't get it.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

Folks,
I would venture to guess that no two of us are mourning in quite the same way. Some are flying flags, others lighting candles, still others are just simply silent. There are those whose anger has them waving a flag while chanting U.S.A! These people are hurting too. I don't follow in their footsteps and chant because my mourning is exactly that.....my mourning. But I respect their right to do so. Some of us have lashed out in here. Again, not my way, but I respect that as well. Let this thread be the place to lash out, let's get the anger out, and at some point let's let the anger lay. If it will help anyone to vent, lash out, etc., PM me, I'd be glad to hear it, to help in any way I can.

Take care and Peace....
Frank


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:18 PM

Thanks Frank, PM on the way!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

Phil Ochs....on how others see us;

"Clean the johns with a rag boys, clean the johns with a rag If you like you can use your flag boys If you like you can use your flag"

From "Cops of the World"

Think about it, please


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

Thanks, Peg, for the clarification, I appreciate it and apologise for unkind words and misunderstanding.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM

Hey Sinsull, L.H., take a Time out! Go to your corners and come out smilin'

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

Peg, although you didclear it up, the statement was false and you expressed no regret in your clarification post for any additional hurt or sorrow that statement may have caused. That came later.
It was this seeming lack of regret that pushed MY buttons. I thought I had made that clear, if not in my initial post, certainly in subsequent ones.
I'll have to work on my communications skills.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:07 AM

Fly the Flag if you want to. If you don't want to: No Big Deal, there are plenty of Patriotic Americans (myself included) who will gladly do it in your place.

The American Flag is self-sustaining, much like it was in WW2, there will alway be someone around to protect this noble and immortal symbol, past present and future.

The Ira Haze picture of Mount Surabachi Iwo Jima sums up this truth up prefectly, and last week at the world trade center ground zero, we see this same picture revisited to another generation: a beautiful picture of brave American Firefighters, defiant against the forces of evil,intolerence, and totalitarianism. Once again raising the American Flag for a new generation.

The leftist who who hate this Country, I doubt will ever fully appreciate the significance of the U.S. flag. I think one must first have liberties taken away, and human lives threatened (much like was done, by the Nazis) Before such reverence is appreciated.

Bob Wills summed up up the Beauty and Fate of the American Flag in his inspirational song, "Stars And Stripes on Iwo Jima"

High on the Hill of Surabachi Waves Old Glory AND SHE ALWAYS WILL"

The American Flag will always be around because of what it represents. And there will always be individuals around to defend it.

This lyric still does (and will always) send chills up my spine.

Truth has a tendency to do that

Dewey, A Patriotic American who loves the American Flag, the U.S.A and all other democracies throughout the free world.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM

Oopps! Forgot to Add this: "GOD bless America" And I do mean GOD with a capital G. We must be a just and righteous nation too and God will lead us through and against the forces and pricipalities of darkness"

Let's all pray for the rightous and noble decisions of our God Fearing Nation in its hour of crisis: that through God and Our Democratic Values we will do the right thing for the future of this world and mankind.

Above all, let's not leave God out of the equation. God Almightly can combat evil much more effective than some silly arm-band!

Dewey, who is not scared to say the G word. Even in the presence of academic liberals!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 11:14 AM

oh, heavens, yes, let GOD sort this out.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:12 PM

Sorry Little hawk, but the logic you have used to defend your comments about Mexico and Mexicans just do not wash. "As likely as not," to fluent English speakers, means that there is a prety good chance that something is going to happen. If stabbings occured because of insults on even a moderate basis, then Mexico would be one big, constant knife fight. Anyone who has spent any length of time in Mexico would say that it is incorrect. Likewise, the statement that "Life is cheap" in Mexico is simply unsubstantiated nonesense along the lines of saying that middle-class Americans (as opposed to lower class and wealthy?) "tend" to be shopoholics or addicted to junk food.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM

Whose side is he on this time?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:17 PM

And while we are dealing with nonesense statements. I don't find a U.S. soldier draped in a flag distasteful. In the picture that I saw, the flag was not touching the ground. And even if it was, considering that it may be him rather than you rotting on an Afghan mountainside in a month or two, I don't think that it is an infraction worth wasting time on.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:04 PM

Those who believe in God also often believe that He uses His creations as tools to carry out His will.
The trick, of course, lies in determining just WHAT God's will IS.
I'm sure that Osama bin Laden feels he knows, as does Jerry Falwell.
*SIGH*

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:20 AM

I'm not talking about the Jerry Fawell Idiots and other know it all fanatics. And I suriously doubt that Bin Laden's MASS MURDER PLOT on American soil could ever be characterized as God's Will. (if anyone here can justify bin laden they need their head examined-so this is NOT the issue)

I meant the God (whichever one you choose to worship) that is a HIGHER POWER that instills in the human bieng a CONSCIENCE, an sense of JUSTICE and PROTECTION for the RIGHTS and LIVES of other human beings. This is what I meant by the ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

Not all countries have a conscience towad a higher power and a supreme being. nor do they believe even remotely in the rule of law.

Godless Russian Under Stalin, Facist Racial Supremist Hitler, Imperialist Hiroheto (however you spell his name) were all morally bankrupt and did not believe in a higher power or court that they or others like them would some day answer to. E.G. a day of judgement.

The God of Morality didn't reign in their hearts and actions. They were Godless and brutal in the treatment of others and even their own people.

Stalin established the Worker's Zoo: Churches built by his own people turned into pirson camps. people who were captured, made political prisoner's and FORCED to work shoveling grain into what was once their church.People palced in capticity without any rights or compensation for the work they did. The word ZOO, should be of interest also, as an example of GODLESSNESS, they did not reguard these people as people. They were made ANIMALS of the state as the name ZOO implies Stuck in a cage to work. Do you really think the Russian Regime worried much about answering to a court for these deeds or a higher power?

Yes the U.S. is different (maybe not perfect) but different. As are other Great and Noble nations such as Canada, Great Britain, Greece, etc. Basically All God Fearing Civilized Democracies with the rule of law.

It is important for a nation to believe in a higher power and a judgement. If a nation does not belive in this. They will not be guided by morality, will have nothing to fear, and will thus act accordingly and do all sorts of dastardly deeds. After all, without a GOD, who will punish them for their misbehavior. What have they to lose by acting barbaric?

This is why the world needs GOD (a higher power and judgement) A Godless world will thus produce Godless deeds. And if you don't believe me just study the history of Godless Nations and you will see that their destruction and demise were inevitable over time.

As Far as Fanatics, that is not God. That is God in Disguise: in reality that is the Devil. Bin laden is a wolf in sheeps clothing. This is not God, and my God help help on Judgement Day.

Yes, I do believe in a Judgement Day.

As far as the U.S. killing people. Of course we do this too, but never in the name of God. We fight wars too. People will die in those wars. So! Does this make the U.S. a villain? I've never known a bloodless war ever. We didn't start this war, we didn't want this war. But we are required for the safety and security of the world to finish it.

Unless all the peace-nics out there would prefer anarchy, terrorism, totalitarian etc. Let's have no more talk of the U.S. being the bad guy especially not after this week while thousands of people from many nations lay dead from this sensless slanter.

God be with the people of the world, and may the U.S. be effective it is upcoming military crusade against the foes of mankind. And may the blood shed and lives lost be few!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:26 AM

Do fly the Flag! And, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:49 AM

"military crusade" - I thought that word would crop up.

And in the same post there is the statement "As far as the U.S. killing people. Of course we do this too, but never in the name of God."

What else is the meaning of a "military crusade" (or "military jihad")but killing in the name of God (for which the Arabic word is Allah - check out any Arabic versioin of the Bible)

Most of the world shares the horror at the bombing, and deeply sympathises with the victims, including Muslims. Anything that breaks that unity, such as talking about "crusades" merely serves to further the aims of the people who blew up those planes and buildings.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:51 AM

All Great Leaders Consulted God in their hour of Crisis: Washington, Lincoln, General Patton, FDR, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr.

All these people prayed for our nation's sucess, and what a track record of success it was!

This is why our current president has called a day our prayer. Let us not take it lightly.

Prayer for the future of the nation and this world!

Dewey, who has digressed from the thread and isprobably hated by the American Atheist Society


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:00 AM

O.K. Military Crusade was a poor choice of words to make this point and I apologize. But I'm sure many out there know just what I meant. And the U.S after all is not a fanatic with religion like Bin Laden and there is a seperation of Church and State.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:17 AM

Besides Eisenhower "embarked on the great crusade" in Normady France and no-one gave him grief about it.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

The Germans and their allies were not Muslims, so the word didn't have the same associations when Eisenhower used it.

For Muslims to have someone use that word in this context must sound a lot it would if a German were to invoke the memory of Hitler as a rallying call in a time of national crisis.

I'm not knocking you Dewey. It's easy enough to use the insensitive word, and we all do it and it doesn't matter too much.

But what does matter is that I have just seen it flashed up on my screen that George Bush has referred to it as a "crusade against terrorism", and that does matter.

In this context for him to have used that word is sheer insanity. It is going to cost lives, American lives among them. I can imagine that the people behind the plane bombings must have leapt for joy when they saw that quote. If Bush had been in their pay he could not have said anything more likely to help them.

I'm praying that somehow the BBC got that quote wrong, and that an overworked sub somewhere may have written the wrong word instead of "struggle" or "war" or whatever. But I do not think that is very likely. I'm just hoping that it was a slip of the mind, and that Bush will apologise for it. If it actually represents the way he is thinking, God help us all.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM

While the word "crusade" does indeed refer to the military actions of the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries by the Christians of Europe against the Muslims in the "Holy Land", it also means;" any vigirous, aggressive movement for the defenseor advancment of an idea, cause, etc.".
Let us also remember that there were also crusades against the heathen peoples in northeastern Europe going on at around the same time. These were carried out largely by the knights of the Teutonic order- similar to the Templars- i.e. warrior monks.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Bert
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM

Let me sing this for you all.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:43 AM

Great song, Bert. Well-timed too.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

Seems to me there is an awfully lot of nit-picking going on here. I doubt the terriorists carry a dictionary with them, and even if they do, "sticks and stones," etc. etc.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:46 PM

Thanks, Bert.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:37 AM

This is when flag waving becomes frightening to me...

In Massachussettes, a pizza shop owned by middle eastern immigrants was burned or bombed or something. The other people in the neighborhood said it wouldn't have happened had the pizza shop owners displayed their American flag more prominently.

I would call that mindset rabid. Rabid flag waving has no place in a democracy if it causes people to fear for their safety if they don't prominently display an American flag.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

Yes McGrath I agree that crusade is a dangerous word, and I will avoid using it. It would be wise for ALL Americans NOT to use this word in expressing patriotism.

The War is now on OUR SOIL not THERE'S. By expressing it domestically we most certainly escalate an already dangerous domestic terrorist network.

There is a conservative estimate by the FBI of 200 Islamic Terrorists on U.S. soil. I would not be surprised the actual number is closer to 1000. They could poison our water, crops etc.

This NEW WAR is going to be VERY VERY VERY Ugly!

And these people will gladly DIE for their beliefs!

Be proud, but careful in what you say!

Dewey


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

With so, so much for us to worry about, about the least important matters I can think of is who is right or who offended whom or whatever other nonsense has occured in this thread. Those who have offerred thoughtful comments regarding this tragedy, thank you. The rest...

dw


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

There has been so much concern expressed over the President's use of the word, Crusade.

My The American Heritage Dictionary provides three definitions for the word: 1. Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Moslems. 2. Any holy war undertaken with Papal sanction. 3. Any vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.

Now tell me please, why is number 3 not appropriate to the current situation?

I have a book authored by President Dwight Eisenhower titled, "Crusade in Europe." That book describes the effort to eradicate Nazism in Europe by Allied forces. It was published in 1948 and was on the best seller list for months. I don't recall one criticizm of President Eisenhower using that word in the title of his book. So what is the big deal today?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Doug, I think the word has only ONE meaning in Muslim cultures. The term Crusade means literally to "carry the Cross". To most Muslims it represents invasion by Western Powers coupled with Christian evangelism, and because of that, has a much more specific connotation.

I have no doubt that the President used the term in the sense of your definition number three. His apparent ignorance of the other, original definition and its impact on our Mideast allies is what I find disconcerting. His handling of the crisis so far has been admirable, but this is an unfortunate mis-statement that plays into the hands of our enemies.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

I have not seen nor have I read anything from any Islamic source proclaiming dismay over the use of the word "crusade".
If anyone has, please cite your source. If not...

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM

Most of the folks on this thread I "know" reasonably well, or at least as much as I can from the time we've spent here together....some better than others, but in general, I can kinda' figure out who you are and all fo that. No, I don't know you, but we all have a feel for each other........whatever.....none of that is the point.

If ever asked for an example of how the attacks affected people.....I will point to this thread. We rarely all agree, but this thread shows how on edge we really are and I fear, how on edge we will remain. It will get better I know, but the times they are a changin' (that's a line from a Dylan song just in case anyone gets the wrong idea).

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

I think you know what the big deal is DougR. We are living in a country where political correctness is the only thing tolerated.

1: Don't spank your children, they may run all over you but don't hurt thier egos.

2: Don't dare make a comment that may belittle someone.

3: We do not judge people for thier race, sex, sexual orientation... But we do praise them for standing out on those grounds.

4: We should all be VERY ashamed of our country and be apologetic for things that our ancestors have done.

5: Everyone is equal in the eyes of God... because God does not exist.

6: (building on 5) It is your right to practice your religion openly, unless you are a christian. Then it is offensive and you are only intimidating those who don't believe the way you do.

7: Our holidays should be secular, even if based on a religous principle.

I really don't think we need to continue... I hope people understand this is not a bash against anyone. But instead I hope people get the point that political correctness needs to end. I see no need for it, I like to think of it as a Capital and Special Interest Fad. Only to be done away with when the next group of PC rules come out.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Okie dokie, Guest, just Nobody. Brace yourself.

Troll, you beat me to the draw. I was just going to write that according to reports, officials from Pakistan have been in Afghanistan trying to reason with the Taliban. Had they got their noses out of joint over the word, "crusade," I doubt they would have made the trip.

The only ones that seem concerned about it appear to be Mudcatters, and thank God us Mudcatters aren't running things. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM

..braced here...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Hmmm.. perhaps I was a bit harsh... let me see...

I suppose that I should have said, "Crusades, described teh relentless and bloody assaults of one religious group against another. And regardless of other uses of the word, and it's changed usage throughout the years. We should be much more careful and use words that could not be interpreted as such, sense there are people who seem to dwell on only one definition or one usage of the word. Not that I am insinuating that they have no right to do so, nor would I say they should try to look into the other usage of the word before acting. After all... it is their (God) given right to get upset at your carelessness and calous (sp) use of such words."

Hopefully that will take the edge off.

Respectfully,

Just a Nobody


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

It was a boner, Doug. Just face it and move on. Even George would probably admit it, which is one of the qualities that make him likeable. In fact, I'll bet you five bucks we don't hear it again.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM

officials from Pakistan have been in Afghanistan trying to reason with the Taliban. Had they got their noses out of joint over the word, "crusade," I doubt they would have made the trip.

He actually seems to have timed calling it "a Crusade" until they were actually in Afghanistan on this crucial, and potentially dangerous, mission...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

Please get over the fact that no one except mudcatters seems to be getting upset over Bush's modernized usage of the word Crusade. You are getting tedious....


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM

Think of the tedium as a tension-reliever, Guest.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

Hello Friends,

Yesterday I returned from two concerts I did with Charlie King and Karen Brandow near Boston and at Wesleyan College in Middletown, Conneticutt to audiences mostly composed of community, political, peace activists. I listened to them talk about what most seemed to say was a confusing situation compounded by what I fear is an unthinking backlash from the U.S. government and the media.

During an eighteen hour car trip to the gigs (passing by the changed skyline of New York city itself) and a 14 hour trip home I consumed a lot of information from the public, talk show hosts, National Public Radio, speeches by various U.S. officials. It is frightening.

The terror attacks must be condemned without reservation and done so just as we should condemn all acts of terror.

We are told that we live in a "global village" and that "globalisation" is the order of the day. And if we follow through with that logic then we cannot separate the tragedy in the U.S. from what happens in the rest of the world. The Taliban government which will not turn over Ben Laden is also the Afghan government that was funded and supported by the U.S. government and CIA. The death squads in Guatemala, Nicaragua and other countries were often trained by the "School of Assassins" in the U.S. There is the tragedy taking place in Palestine and Israel, the years of terror in Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia. By coincidence the attacks on the U.S. came on or near the anniversary date of the last broadcast of Salvador Allende, former President of Chile just before his murder at the hands of the military with CIA complicity. None of these things can be separated from the other and all such acts of terror from "their" side or "our" side must be condemned.

The response of the U.S. has taken a turn in the minds of many to a reversion to a nationalist jingoism. The pop music of the sixties and seventies (songs such as "Hey children what's that sound, everybody look what's going down") is coupled with continous performances of "God Bless America". Even Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land" (a song written as a response to "God Bless America" by a man condemned as a "communist) has been used for an underlying militaristic message that "they will pay" even though we are not sure who "they" are.

I heard comments from ordinary people and talk show hosts that "if only we had eliminated Sadam Hussein even if we killed a few thousand innocent people in the first place then this would never have happened". Television commentators made remarks that "ultimately it is the Moslem people who know who is responsible". People such as Jerry Falwell comment that the destruction of the World Trade Centre was God's wrath against liberalism, homsexuality, abortion. Others now condemn people with "dangerous ideas". President George Bush, Jr., and other government officials put it in terms of a theocratic response as "Good" versus "Evil". And the military response in "getting those responsible" will take place as the governments of Iran and Pakistan seal off their borders to Afghan people trying to flee their own country to protect themselves thus leaving them trapped for the next horror to be visited upon them.

The world will indeed change. Voices of democratic dissent and alternative voices for political change will be hushed by government, condemned by a frightened public who's despair will be used in a jingoistic hysteria reminiscient of the jailing, spying and murder of those with different political ideas during and following World War I. So, it is incumbent upon all of us not to be so easily hooked into this hysteria, for us to demand of ourselves and of others to think and to reason what the events mean rather than blindly lash out (it has been acjnowledged that there have already been acts of violence against the members of the Arabic community in the U.S. and a fire bombing of a Moslem mosque in Montreal, Quebec, Canada).

The world has indeed changed. Let's make sure it does not change for the worse.

Len Wallace lwallace@mnsi.net


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

Arghhhhhhhhhh! Okay, Lonesome E. J.; Mcgrath and anyone else who is pissed at Bush for using the word Crusade! I'm going to email Barbara Bush to spank his butt. I'll email Laura Bush and tell her, "No dessert for George after dinner tonight?" I will make it my personal crusade.

Okay?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

DougR, I don't think the point is to castigate Bush for using the word 'crusade'. I think the point is that we hope he will choose his words more carefully, according to what will help us in the long run, rather than what will make us feel good in the short term.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM

White House apologizes for using 'crusade' to describe war on terrorism

The Associated Press 9/18/01 3:37 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush regrets using the word "crusade," with all its historical connotations of religious war, to describe his campaign against terrorists, his spokesman said Tuesday.

Bush only meant to say that his is a "broad cause" to stamp out terrorism worldwide, White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said.

"I think to the degree that that word has any connotations that would upset any of our partners or anybody else in the world, the president would regret if anything like that was conveyed. But the purpose of his conveying it is in the traditional English sense of the word, it's a broad cause," said Fleischer.

On Sunday, Bush had told reporters: "This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."

With that comment, he stoked suspicion in some Arab and Muslim quarters where crusade is a loaded term that recalls the Christians' medieval wars against Muslims in the Holy Land.

Bush is trying to rally Arab nations to join an international coalition against the perpetrators of last week's twin terrorist strikes in New York and Washington.

"I think what the president was saying had no intended consequences for anybody, Muslim or otherwise, other than to say that this is a broad cause that he is calling on America and the nations around the world to join," Fleischer said.
I hope that this article in some measure moderates the distress that some have felt over the use of the "c" word by the president.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Then does that mean I should ask Barbara and Laura to go easy on George, Troll?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

Just a Nobody!!!!

Brillant Wit, Cutting Commentary!!!!

Stick Around....

We Need Folk Like you!!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:34 AM

Well I sure feel better. Although I think George W is still entitled to his spanking from Laura...

And I support the President, as we all should in times like this. The whole world is listening to what he says with sympathy. The fact that he recognized the impression given by the word and moved to correct it is laudable.

PS I love the anonymous Guest statements followed by anonymous Guest applause for the statements. Makes you wonder if its all coming from the same guy, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:12 AM

Lonesome E.J.: Let's get something straight. I never suggested that GW be given a spanking by Laura. It was Barbara to whom I assigned that task! It was intended as punishment, not pleasure!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:56 AM

McGrath,

sorry about that but you made me lough out loud when you blamed Bush for using the word 'crusade' at the very time a delegation from Pakistan was on a crucial...mission.

Not only have you used a word coming from the Latin word 'crux' for 'cross' with all its for Muslims inacceptable connotations like 'crusade' but also a word coming from the Latin 'missio' which reminds all non-Christians of injustice and pain inflicted upon them by missionaries and stands for trying to convince, sometimes by the use of brute force, other people to become Christians.

Sorry, Kevin, now I'm serious: Similar as you did not give a second thought about the etymology of 'mission' and 'crucial' and other potentially threatening meanings of these words Bush's thoughts were not focused on Latin and the Catholic church history when using the word 'crusade'. It takes a lot of ill will to misread like I did display above.

Nevertheless, it was necessary and wise to apologise for no fault at all in the present context. But if someone with ill will takes the word 'mission' Bush uses at least twice daily out of the context and gives it the 'historical treatment' as I have started above Bush is in serious trouble. Speaking English during a campain without using the word 'crusade' should be possible, without the word 'mission' it is close to impossible.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

Lonesome,

Nope... I post under this name. Don't have an account, never really thought about getting one. No, I don't praise myself. I know I can be as incorrect, mistaken, or misunderstood as the next. If any of my statements need to be backed up I would prefer it to be done by others, if my statements need to be corrected I will. But I am consistantly...

Just a nobody...

DougR, Think we could get the 'presidential paddling' on Pay per view... I think we have alot of people here that would watch it... Hell I'd watch it. :)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:04 AM

Ummm - not to get people riled, however, I will point to the situation in the late 11th Century when the First Crusade was initiated and launched.

The fledgling states in Europe were in a state of internal political turmoil, but were beginning to sort themselves out a bit. Constantinople was beginning to bend under fairly steady expansion of Islamic forces (military as well as cultural and religous) into Byzantium - having already engulfed Palestine, and with it, Jerusalem. Like it or not, there were actions taken by Muslims against Christian residents and pilgrims because they were Christians. Given the choice to convert or be enslaved, or executed if they were soldiers or other men with military training, some chose to convert (sowing the seeds for current problems in the Balkans) others refused.

Pope Urban saw this as an opportunity to do a several things at once. First, this was a chance to get some of the younger sons of the nobility who had no future, a chance to make a name for themselves without making war in Europe. Second, it was an opportunity to aid Constantinople, who actually called for assistance from the Western Church, as fellow Christians in spite of the schism between them. Finally, and most importantly (to Urban) from waht I have read, this was an opportunity to open Jerusalem to Christian pilgrims, allowing them to travel relatively safely.

People now talk about excesses that resulted in that time. By current standards, they certainly were excessive. By contemporary standards, they were only excessive as far as the side that lost were concerned. It is important to note that while the First Crusade was a military success (the captured Jerusalem and established a Christian kingdom), this was the result of Christian residents of, and pilgrims to Jerusalem, being treated with excessive harshness, by THEIR standards (although the Muslims did not see things quite that way).

Now then, the later Crusades were hardly that inspired or successful. When Jerusalem was retaken by the Seljuk Turks, the Second Crusade was launched, and failed miserably. The Third Crusade featured Richard III, King of England, travelling to Palestine, losing the military campaign, but winning a stunning victory at Jaffa, and negotiating a treaty to allow pilgrims to travel freely. The Fourth and Fifth Crusades did absolutely no one any good - with the Fifth Crusade weakening Constantinople, setting it up to eventually fall in battle in the late 15th Century (or was it early 16th, memory is unclear).

The Crusades were a response to the early struggle to expand the faith is Islam. They briefly checked it in the East. Charles "Martel" stopped it cold in Spain.

Oh, the word struggle translates litterally as "jihad".

As far as President Bush using the word "crusade", I think his handlers should limit the stuff he ad-libs on.

Now, back to work -

Regards - Pete


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

Lonesome:

Just one other thing, I wouldn't put something up to praise myself that could be just filled with sarcasm. I'm not sure if GUEST was sincere or not, doesn't matter much to me. If I were to praise myself...

Just a Nobody,

Your thoughts are provoking, despite horrible spelling and grammer. I suppose that having a mind as steeped in culture as your's such things mean little. Perhaps, with time we will all be able to tap into the energies that you have harnessed to understand the vast and complex issues of today's global environment. I appreciate and look forward to your next commments, so that I can print them up and hand them out at the next board meetings. Maybe then, my managers will be able to take from your insight and find a better way to run things. If we do that, then we can become a model for other companies, perhaps in time, even governments. And with our government changed to better reflect your views, we can change the world. A world of tolerance, peace, brothers in arms.. A world of...

Nobody's...

:) Now THAT'S an endorsement.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Crusader with a Mission
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:55 AM

In addition to re-establishing the Sky Marshals program, we should develop a Word Marshals program. They can monitor all all political discourse with dictionary (including dictionaries for linguistic anachronisms) in hand. Then, every time someone utters a word that can in anyway be construed as offensive to anyone, they can jump to action and administer spankings. They can even deliver retroactive punishment for past misdeeds such as the fiendishly Anti-Islam Hollywood producer who dared to label a particular fictional superhero as "The Caped Crusader." Any volunteers...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM

What is it with spankings, bunch of pervs... :) someone hitting someones behind till it leaves welts, that is just... just... hmmmmm....

Crusade, crusade, crusade!

Just a nobody


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM

They might want to drop the "Caped Crusader" nickname for the upcoming Batman Saves Karachi. It could negatively impact cash flow in the target demographic.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:25 AM

It's white or red
Its C major or A minor
The line is drawn in the sand
Your either a sheep or a goat
The prez says, "Your either for us or against us"

And this thread is the demarkation
Thankfully, you live outside the U.S.A.
Or else Sorcha, we would have to scorch ya.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:28 AM

The only one hell bent on a "crusade" (religous war) is the Taliban, not the U.S.A.

They will not hand over Bin Laden. They are stauling the U.S.A. by "asking him to leave on his own free will."

Really... asking a mass murder of thousands, if he would care to leave Afghanistan on his own free will?

I am amazed the U.S.A has had any patients to tolerate this sham of a government (the Taliban) at all.

These thugs have been harboring this mass murdered for years, isolating themselves from the entire world and have planning this jihad in advance.

Then they have the nerve to dictate the terms of which the war will unfold on us. And the terms by which they will extradict and/or prosecute him (if.. that is, God knows they will ever prosecute him)

Bin Laden and the Afghan Government are one in the same as the statement of their terms and conditions to the U.S.A. have revealed them to be.

They Say: Let Us Keep Our Terrorist! Let Him Continue To Attack U.S. Citizens! Be Patient U.S.A., give him a chance to totally destroy your nation in the next four terrorist plots yet to come (which the F.B.I is unveiling). Don't Retaliate and Demand Extradition and Justice for this, or We will Unleash a Holy War in addition to the one we have already started on 9-11-01

Wake up people. The war is on. NOW! Stop walking on diplomatic eggshells with this guy, his country, and the word Crusade.

The only one using and practicing this word in its a religious context in the Taliban and Bin Laden.

Stop ringing you hands over whether this will offend someone and draw the U.S.A. into a dangerous war. It's too late for that: we are alreay in a war, that they have started. That what all this rhotoric is about and what all their rediculous conditions are about. The war is HERE in the U.S.A. NOW! It started on 9-11-01. And God knows how long these people the Taliban will continue it.

P.S.

While I don't want anyone to live in fear, it is not wise to use the word "Crusade" domestically. You wouldn't smart off in the middle of a drive by shooting, if you saw a caravan of gunmen on a highway. So why would anyone dare to do anything different when discussing the word Crusade domestically. These people are terrorsist and fanatical nuts, who will try and do anything.

This network is growing and will continue to grow domestically.

The Holy War is Here. On our Soil. And I'd be willing to bet within a month or less it will be on their's (the talibans too)

Protect Thyself, and Negotiate Peace Only When A New Government other than the Taliban is Willing to live in peace. With everyone else that occupies this world.

One Love! One Heart! Let' Get Together and Feel Alright!

May God protect and Defend the coalition and its Mission!

God Bless America! GOd Help Us All!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

I mention God this time, only as a prayer against the forces and deeds of mass murder. Not because I am a Religous Christian Nut who hates any Islamic Faith World Religion. I most certainly do not!

Terrorists and their evil network of death would make any man (or woman) pray..... and sweat a little too for that matter.

Despite the P.C. crowd always being down on the U.S.A. this is one time, they will be forced to choose its side for their most coveted issue of global peace. Bin laden and His Nation (with the exception of Iraq) stand totally alone. There is complete world condemnation, (even in the Arab World who undoubtedly do not love the U.S.A.) It is Bin Laden and his nation against the entire world.

Give Peace A Chance People! I don't want to die in my own country of Anthrax Poisoning, Nuclear Radiation, Hijacking etc. Merely because the world stood by and let it happened. Nor do I want to see Armogeddon, because some academic types think that every nation and culture is equal reguardless of the deviant things they do.

Dewey (who still loves the U.S.A. and would still like to be alive to live in it)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:00 AM

People of earth. I've got news for you, you are all wrong and have really pissed me off by distorting my words. You better get your shit together and deal with this situation like adults or I am going to get Old Testament on your asses.

--God

P.S. If any of you women are approached by a guy named Wallace who asks for sex, just remember that it is my will...


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Satan
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:13 AM

People of earth. Don't listen to God. The last time that he got anything right was when he allowed Eminem to survive that drug overdose. Kill 'em all....

Satan

P.S. On second thought, having sex with Wallace is a good suggestion.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:20 AM

God/Satan; very humorous, very tasteful, highly appropriate under the circumstances.
Now, be a good boy, and run along and play in the traffic.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,just a noby
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Troll... you forgot to tell them not to look both ways.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Not so fast
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:52 AM

I for one want to hear these guys out...

Wallace Oslin


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

I had a great notion once to fly a flag of sorts. I would rather look like a US flag; seven red stripes, six white, a blue field in the top left hand quadrant, with fifty white stars arranged like the Betsy Ross flag, modified into a peace symbol.
Jim


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: kimmers
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM

In response to the tragedy, my husband went upstairs and dug his treasured flag out of storage. Nine feet long, partly handsewn, and an antique (it was a 48-star flag), it had been sent to him as a gift when he was a high school exchange student far from home, in Norway. According to his parents, it had once flown on a US merchant marine vessel.

We hung that flag from our garage a day or two after the attacks. On our little white garage, it made a heart-swelling sight. Today, we came home from the office to find it gone. Stolen.

Michael is heartbroken. Neither of us used to be much on flag-waving, but doing Civil War reenacting had changed that recently. We had come to a better understanding of what our flag could represent. We had never flown a flag from our home before, but felt that the present circumstances warranted it. Now, it is gone.

If anyone knows of a similar flag for sale, let me know... and I will pay just about any price that I can. Michael has been taking the tragedies very hard anyway, for all that we are way over here in Oregon. He is a police/EMS chaplain-in-training and remains stunned and transfixed by the story of Father Mike... who will be the unofficial patron saint of EMS chaplains from now on.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

Kimmers, I can't help with a flag but have you tried e-Bay?
It's hard to accept that there are such scum in the world. My heart goes out to you both.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: kimmers
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM

Haven't looked at E-Bay yet, but I may do that. We had a (new) spare flag, but we gave it to our new neighbors. Just to bug you, Troll (gently), they are lesbians and very liberal. Flag-waving ain't limited to you staunch conservative Republican types!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:33 AM

My wife is somewhere to the left of liberal. Her Paternal Grandfather was at University with Leon Trotsky and Trotsky came to stay with them when he was in America.
She has a flag in the window of her car and there is one flying in front of the house.
One of the funnest weddings I ever played was when a Lesbian couple got married. One of them was Scottish and insisted on hearing all the songs I knew. Her two brothers sang along.
BTW, The Memsabib and I made an agreement when we first started dating that we would never discuss politics. That was twenty years ago. The rule still holds.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 08:14 AM

kimmers, send me your address (via PM since my email is clogged) and I'll send you my extra one.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Blackcatter (forgot to reset cookie)
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

Greetings all,

While I fully believe that everyone has a right to fly a flag, I am peeved that some many Americans have to go out and buy a flag in order to fly it.

I have been flying a flag every patriotic holiday for years and when this event happened, I went to my closet, got out my flag and hung it up. And sat back and watched stupid Americans rush around looking for anything that is red, white and blue. They make me sick - to only want to show their support for the positive aspects of America when something bad happens.

F*uck them all. I do not fly the flag because I want to prove to everyone I am a patriotic American. I fly it as a symbol of those who gave their lives and those who continue to risk their lives.

I have also written my congress men & women to insist they employ restraint in the retribution phase and I will continue to work hard to stop the part of American policy that at least indirectly was the cause of this event.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM

Blackcatter, I understand how you feel. I'm personally repulsed by bumperstickers. ;-) However, just like Frank (Pseudolus) kept saying over and over, we all grieve differently, and I believe we all show our love, concern, solidarity, etc. differently. I just saw a car with "God Bless America" painted on the back window in shoe polish.

My entire life I've wondered why it takes a tragedy for us to help our neighbors. You know, the relief that pours out when there is a tornado or flood, but the hurting next door neighbor that we never see or hear. But I still can't criticize someone who is hurting now. I only hope and pray all this energy and awareness will be channeled for good. I know people are talking and listening more now.

While they're listening, it's a time for calm, loving voices to continue the message....oops, gotta go now.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:52 AM

So many people here have such splendid vocabulary; and one always can tell a person's intelligence by the words he or she choses to use (or not use).

It is amazing (and a bit sad to me) that so many here have to use profanity, vulgarity and name calling as vehicles to make their views known to others.

Please show a little respect and civility to those you converse with. The purpose of these posts is to contribute to the discussion, and/or offer commentary worthy of persuasion. Belittling, profanity and name calling is not the vehicle to accomplish this objective, and surely doesn't make anyone like or admire the individual who does it.

Dewey


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:24 AM

Dewey, the use of belittling, profanity and namecalling in the course of a discussion is generally a device used by the immature and/or unimaginative to show the depth of their passion and the extent of their outrage that anyone would express a point of view that runs contrary to their own.
It would be nice if people were mature enough to realize that theirs is not the only POV but alas...

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:54 AM

Just heard from leading Russian military intelligence experts, as reported by the Voice of Russia World Service, that the Afghan Government must FIRST be overthrown in order to obtain a U.S. victory over Bin Laden.

This is probably the reason for the giant warship apparatus that the U.S is now employing (it will require military muscle to accomplish this task!)

I believe today's statement by the Russians confirms what I have feared and mentioned here: that Bin Laden and the Afghanistan Government are one in the same. (They will have to be toppled according to the Russians) The Afghan Government is most likely hiding Bin Laden and moving him around to avoid his capture and/or death.

God knows how many American and Afghan lives this upcoming military action might claim and how long the issue of Bin Laden may take to resolve.

Even if the government of Afghnistan is overthrown, the U.S. military will still have the tedious task of locating Ben Laden in his never-ending sea of santuaries and rugged terraine.

This type of war is obviously going to take time; and, I am confident that the Russians have summed up the reality of what must and has to occur perfectly.

The Flags go up to Full Staff Today, and I just hope and pray they will not be used to drape U.S. soldiers in within the upcoming months and years. Most inevitably, however, they probably will as the neither the U.S. or the current Afghan government is willing to negotiate over the surrender of Bin Laden.

I hope am wrong, but I fear I am right!

Dewey


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM

Guest Dewey: The whole idea of the current campaign, I believe, is to deprive Oaama Bin Laden of his sanctuaries in terriorist sympathizing countries. I think the US, including the consortium, will try to bottle him up in Afghanstan, and if the Taliban tries to protect him, well, they just shouldn't.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,me
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:50 AM

Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!Fly the FLAG!!!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 03:40 PM

No thanks, I'd rather not.

Jim


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