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Quotation text Req: Then they came for me?

The Shambles 09 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM
Roger in Sheffield 09 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM
Roger in Sheffield 09 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM
Sorcha 09 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM
Gareth 09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM
SINSULL 09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM
Gareth 09 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM
Wolfgang 10 Sep 01 - 05:59 AM
Bagpuss 10 Sep 01 - 11:02 AM
GeorgeH 11 Sep 01 - 09:58 AM
wysiwyg 11 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM
The Shambles 12 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM
GeorgeH 13 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM
The Shambles 13 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM
The Shambles 24 Sep 01 - 02:09 AM
Wolfgang 24 Sep 01 - 06:31 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 21 Feb 03 - 05:59 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 21 Feb 03 - 06:40 AM
GUEST 21 Feb 03 - 06:52 AM
michaelr 21 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM
Susanne (skw) 24 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM
Frankham 24 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM
The Shambles 25 Feb 03 - 05:40 AM
JennyO 25 Feb 03 - 05:54 AM
Wolfgang 25 Feb 03 - 06:11 AM
The Shambles 25 Feb 03 - 06:21 AM
JennyO 25 Feb 03 - 08:18 AM
Wolfgang 22 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM
The Shambles 22 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM
The Shambles 21 Dec 04 - 04:09 AM
GUEST 21 Dec 04 - 04:43 AM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 07 - 05:36 AM
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Subject: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM

I have been trying to dig up that poem/song about.

They came for the communists, and I was not a communist, so I did nothing.

And so on............

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

I have heard a similar song sung by Christy Moore


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM

I have been trying to find this one as well, as far as I can remember it is something like....
    First they came for they jews,
    I am not a jew so I did not speak up
    Then they came for the communists,
    I am not communinist so I said nothing
    Then they came for the disabled,
    I am not disabled so I said nothing
    Then they came for me,
    There was nobody left to speak up for me
I have missed a few lines out, does anybody know the rest or who wrote it?


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

these?


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM

Not quite, Roger, here is the full text:

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

The missing two lines in the poem are trade unionists and catholics, it was written by Pastor Martin Niemoller.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

I knew it was by a German theologian, but I guessed the wrong one. It was a quote from Martin Niemöller (1892-1984). Don't know the original source, but it was published in the U.S. Congressional Record 14 October 1968:
When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church - and there was nobody left to be concerned.
often quoted in the form "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist..." and so on
Source: Oxford Dictionary of Quotations

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

Pastor Martin Miemoller,

Executed in the aftermath of the "Officers Plot" against Hitler - his words are still apt today.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

Another bit on a similar theme "And The World Was Made Clean". A short story about racial hatred which wiped out all but one man and one woman. She was freckled; he was not. And they despised each other. Sorry for the creep.


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Subject: ADD: Yellow Triangle (Christy Moore)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

Ah, Gareth, you got caught by a variation of the same misconception I had. I thought the quote was from Dietrich Bonhöffer, who was executed in a concentration camp in 1945 as a consequence of his involvement in the 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler. It's not - it's from Martin Niemöller (1892-1984). Niemöller also spent time in a concentration camp for his opposition to Hitler. Another source said the quote came from an address he gave to the U.S. Congress in 1968.
Here's the song by Christy Moore that Roger linked to. It's usually better to post lyrics of songs that we don't have here, along with a link to the source where you found them.

Yellow Triangle
(Christy Moore)
CHORUS
      
      Am       F            Am
      
Black triangle, pink triangle
      
         F            Am
      
Green triangle, red triangle
      
         F             Am
      
Blue triangle, lilac triangle
      
         F G             Am
      
And they wore the yellow triangle        

      
                  C            G                 Am
   
When first they came for the criminals I did not speak
   F          C                G
   
Then they began to take the Jews
   F                     C               G                Am
   
When the fetched the people who were members of trade unions
   F-G       Am
   
I did not speak
             C               G       C                G
   
When they took the Bible students, rounded up the homosexuals
             F               G                Am
   
Then they gathered up the immigrants and the gypsies
   Am
   
I did not speak, I did not speak
         F          C       E7                F      G       Am
   
Eventually they came for me and there was no one left to speak
   
   CHORUS
   
    
by Christy Moore (after Pastor Niemöller - dedicated to the
memory of Phyllis Mcghee)


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM

Joe - well spotted - my chapel days need refreshing.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 05:59 AM

There's a curious story behind which I do not understand yet. The citation differs a lot according to the language of the webpage. I have not been able yet to find any reference in German that could be tranlated as the citation in the Congressional record. All German versions I have located go more or less like this:

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten geholt haben, habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Katholiken holten, habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Katholik.
Als die Nazis mich holten,
gab es niemanden mehr, der protestieren konnte.
(Martin Niemöller)

That is: First communists, then social democrats, then catholics.

Maybe Niemöller used the basic idea more than once, fitting the exact succession of groups to the repective opportunity, maybe the first translation was overly 'creative'.

I'll try to find out where exactly this citation comes from.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 11:02 AM

I wrote a tune for this poem, but it was for my GCSE (many moons ago) and consequently, its a bit crap!

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:58 AM

Starting from Joe's link, I'd recommend people to go one click further to: "Who was Martin Niemoller"

Also this gives an eye-witness accoutn of his arrest.

In addition I find there was an "award winning (cinema) documentary of his life" made in 1985.

However, like Wolfgang I can't find a German text of the words. And I've found three different attributions of when they were uttered; perhaps the most likely is that they were made in 1945 on Niemoller's release from concentration camp. (Which would put them later than his autobiography . . . )

G.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM

Guess "they" came for "us," today.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM

All of us..........


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM

A comment I almost made in my last post was that I suspect Martin Niemoller would be horrified at some of those who have adopted his words for their narrowly-focused ends.

As I think Shambles was saying, recent events are a crime against humanity . . but also represent a failure of humankind to resolve the desparate problems facing the world today. Something which Niemoller, in the latter part of his life, would have understood perfectly.

G.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

The power of these words are their very simplicity.

All that is being said here is that we pretty well always know what we should be doing..........But can find many reasons not to do it......Until.....


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:09 AM

How is the research going?


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:31 AM

I have failed to find a source in a couple of searches.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 05:59 AM

Any reliable source on Dr Otto Dibelius.

He was also highly regarded as a German Protestant cleric who spoke out against the Nazis, but he was portrayed in a very unflattering light in a recent film version of Hochhuth's "Der Stellvertreter" (sorry, can't remember the English title of the film).


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:40 AM

Obviously, my first sentence above should have a question mark.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:52 AM

Why is this thread linked to the PEL threads? From what I can tell, nothing in the thread has anything to do with PEL.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM

Must be because The Shambles started it... a Mudcat mistake.
I believe it was a mistake. It's now unlinked. --JoeClone
I did the original grouping for the PEL threads, basing it on the "PEL: Links to all of them" thread. Since this thread was on the list, I included it. I was mistaken. The JoeClone was correct to remove it from the PEL group.
-Joe Offer-

Shambles stated, in the thread on Thread Proliferation that he HAD wanted it to be grouped with the PEL threads, so it's back. --JoeClone
4 March 03 -Well, I guess Shambles succeeded in his attempt to manipulate us into looking silly. The thread has been removed from the PEL group. This decision is final.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, how good is your German? I found a few sites on Bishop Otto Dibelius, but they're all in German. If that's no use to you I'll try to give you the gist in English. Send a message to skw at worldmusic dot de.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM

Wasn't he a converted pacifist who originally invented the Nazi U-boat?

Frank


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:40 AM

It was NOT a mistake.

Perhaps it could kindly be re-linked?

Perhaps Joe you could have checked, before acting on what you beleived?


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:54 AM

I'm sorry - am I missing something? Could Shambles please explain why he wants this linked to PEL threads? I can't see the connection. I'm not saying there isn't one in some way, but maybe it needs a little more explanation.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:11 AM

Martin Niemöller was a submarine commander in WWI, not its inventor.
Please keep PEL out of this thread.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:21 AM

We're Alright Jack. A link to a song in the Mudcat Songbook.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:18 AM

Okay, I thought it might be something like that, but I wasn't sure.

I must admit I haven't been reading the PEL threads much, because I am in Oz - what we are having trouble with here is Public Liability Insurance. Because we are getting to be such a litigious society, premiums are going sky high, and people who want to hold an event, even a street party, are finding that they can't get council permission without taking out expensive insurance.

It all seems to be symptomatic of the trend towards ordinary people's lives being complicated and restricted by rules and "guidelines" imposed by various government bodies, and the eroding of personal freedom. I care about this very much.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM

I've often tried in vain, but now I might have found the source(s): click for a scholarly website about this citation

First, they came for the Jews is historically wrong and Niemöller never would have said that. Correct is: first they came for the communists though this line is omitted in several English language versions. Even some holocaust memorials get it wrong.

Each one seems to misquote according to his or her own agenda. Gore, for instance, never cites the line about the trade unionists but loves to include the Roman Catholics that never have been mentioned by Niemöller in this context.

As late as 1979, in Blätter für Deutsche und Internationale Politik (not cited in Marcuse's website as far as I see), Niemöller did write first communists, then social democrats, then him.

He was arrested in 1937 a year before the large scale arrests (and murders) of the Jews and after the arrests of communists and Social democrats. So his time-line makes personal sense.

However, I know that this citation now has a life of its own and most people do not care about correctness.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

Thank you Wolfgang, it is good that some folk do care about correctness.

It probably matters more to me that folk act correctly. The point of the piece for me is more the spirit of it - that people usually know what is the correct thing to do.

The spirit of it would have been relevant many times before the 1930s.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:09 AM

This quote was mentioned in a current thread so I thought it might be a good time to refresh this thread.


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Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:43 AM

First they came for the playwrights....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Then they came for me?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:36 AM

This Web page (click) is a remarkably detailed (and remarkably inconclusive) study of this quote. It seems clear that we will never find a definitive version of the quote.

-Joe-


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