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Mudcat a racist forum?

GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM
InOBU 05 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM
catspaw49 05 Sep 01 - 12:30 PM
InOBU 05 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM
Jeri 05 Sep 01 - 12:43 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Phillip 05 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM
Jeri 05 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM
catspaw49 05 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Sep 01 - 01:10 PM
wysiwyg 05 Sep 01 - 01:10 PM
MMario 05 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM
Mark Clark 05 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM
Bill D 05 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM
M.Ted 05 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM
Justa Picker 05 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM
JedMarum 05 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,AliUK 05 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM
catspaw49 05 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM
Mark Clark 05 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,AliUk 05 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM
Bill D 05 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Lilith 05 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Donal Sharkey 05 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 02:36 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM
Sorcha 05 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM
Bernard 05 Sep 01 - 03:00 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 01 - 03:37 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 01 - 03:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM
Justa Picker 05 Sep 01 - 04:15 PM
SeanM 05 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 01 - 04:55 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM
Trapper 05 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM
toadfrog 05 Sep 01 - 06:37 PM
M.Ted 05 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM
DougR 05 Sep 01 - 07:35 PM
AliUK 05 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM
DougR 05 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM
Trapper 05 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM
fiddlegal 05 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Sep 01 - 08:59 PM
Troll 05 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM
DougR 06 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM
Sourdough 06 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM
Wolfgang 06 Sep 01 - 07:30 AM
Celtic Soul 06 Sep 01 - 08:11 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 01 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,from skarpi Iceland. 06 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,not in hull lurker 06 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM
SharonA 06 Sep 01 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Mr. Science 06 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM
SharonA 06 Sep 01 - 11:42 AM
Walking Eagle 06 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM
Metchosin 06 Sep 01 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Walking Eagle 06 Sep 01 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Frank 06 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM
Bernard 07 Sep 01 - 04:49 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 02 - 09:42 PM
mack/misophist 31 Jan 02 - 11:59 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 02 - 11:32 AM
Irish sergeant 02 Feb 02 - 11:38 AM
wildlone 02 Feb 02 - 12:09 PM
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Subject: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM

I guess most of you don't understand or care how devastating it is to read a racist message, when you are a member of the group being attacked.

I have never been able to understand that level of racism--the very racism being exhibited here in recent days. No empathy or compassion for the people being attacked whatsoever. And this from a group of human beings who pride themselves on their kindness, generosity, and helpfulness.

I am in agreement with the Arab world regarding the need to recognize the Israeli government's racist policies towards Palestinians, and think it is very important to oppose the Israeli and US walkout at the UN conference.

But that does not mean anti-Semitism is an acceptable response. Ever. As McGrath of Harlow said, hate is hate.

And it shouldn't be tolerated in Mudcat. Ever.

There is a huge difference between generic trolling, and racist trolling. Why are some of you having so much difficulty seeing the difference?

And do you not know that the ways some of you are carrying on trivializing the racism is just as hurtful as the blatant racist messages are?

I, like Pete M, am really saddened at the responses here in Mudcat. I am also angered by them. I have lodged a complaint in the Help forum. I have posted in the Joe Offer thread. And as some suggested, I have now started this thread in hopes that people might show some sensitivity to the seriousness of the issue of whether or not these blatant, racist messages will be tolerated in Mudcat, or whether they will be deleted.


Our Guest's message implies that the only appropriate response to a racist remark is censorship, to silence the speaker. I contend that a much more powerful response is to allow the speaker to speak - and then to respond with silence. Our Guest would like to force us into censorship - to monitor the Forum, review every message, and delete every message the Guest deems inappropriate.
We're not willing to do that. Does our refusal to censor mean that we're racist? I don't think so.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

I for one am not in favor of them being deleted. We should know who these bastards are, BEFORE they start building ovens, for Jews - or as they are at this moment, walled ghettos for Roma. In solidarity and sympathy...
NO PASARAN! SALUDE!
Larry


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM

You know Larry, I might be able to agree with the merit of your argument if we had actually seen people responding to the racist messages in such a way that made it clear they were opposed to the message, rather than in agreement with it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:30 PM

"There is a huge difference between generic trolling, and racist trolling. Why are some of you having so much difficulty seeing the difference?"

...So which is this?

Spaw (I agree Larry)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM

Find strenght in the few of us who make up the opposition, when the camps come, only a few of us will resist, but we will and we will win. Remember, if everyone who said they were in the French resistance WAS, the Nazi's would have been out on their butts in an hour.
Apathy is the great broth of evil, but it is the common human condition and along with conformity fuels the fires of the holocasts. But, here we are, a few fragile pieces of flesh standing in the way of the crule crule men and their terrible cold machine of hate.
Me and Spaw will be their ticking away in the trench, so keep strong old guest.
Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM

I don't think asking serious questions which are relevant and timely to a number of current threads is trolling at all, catspaw, if that is what you are suggesting.

Why are you trying to change the subject (ie suggesting that I'm a troll), rather than seriously discuss it?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:43 PM

Spaw, the difference is that a racist troll may be more effective than another sort of troll because it may make people feel more guilty about not responding. (It's sort of like those stupid petitions that clog up the internet and don't do any good, but say "if you don't send this to everybody in your address book, you're a cruel heartless bastard with no compassion for your fellow humans.)

They work on guilt, and GUEST up there is just egging people on.

Racism exists everywhere. In a written medium, the only power words have is what importance we choose to give them, and how much we allow them to disrupt our lives.

The bigger the reaction, the greater their power.


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Subject: Mudcat, a racing forum?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

I must have been reading the wrong threads here, and missed it...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM

"...when the camps come, only a few of us will resist..."

What a ridiculous statement! Why are you waiting "till the camps come" to actually oppose this anti-semitic crap? Tacet public approval and tolerance of this stuff only causes it's proliferation.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM

When a sequence of messages by unnamed GUESTS turn up, building on each other in this way, the suspicion that they are really one person playacting to try and stir up trouble is impossible to rule out.

This may of course be untrue in this case. But equally it could be true, in which case it would be a remarkably unpleasant type of destructive manipulation.

I think that our experience with this lind of thing is that to get into arguing about it just feeds it, and that the best thing to do is to turn away from it, and let it wither away.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM

Yes Jeri, what you say is true. And Mudcatters have given a pretty significant amount of attention to the anti-Semitic posters here in recent days. That is exactly my point.

If Mudcatters are going to tolerate racist messages here, there is the very real possibility that this place will become a haven for racist folk. From the looks of the responses I've seen in the past few days, I'd say it is already teetering on the brink of being a racist forum already.

And Jeri, it really isn't fair to suggest that I'm egging people on, just because I'm deeply concerned about the racist posting going on in Mudcat, here and now.

Just because racist posting doesn't bother some as much as it does others, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate topic for discussion here when it is occurring, being tolerated, and being trivialized.

And again, I repeat, racist, anti-Semitic messages are profoundly painful and hurtful to read for some of us who are members of the group being attacked.

Why then, are we not seeing anyone in Mudcat recognize that? Why are so few here denouncing this really hateful behavior?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

"Why are so few here denouncing this really hateful behavior?"

Still working on that guilt angle?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM

And the more this goes on, the more I feel,in my guts that the anti-semite GUEST and the anti-anti-semite GUEST are the same person, playing a very sick game.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM

McGrath,

While I accept there is no way of anyone knowing with certainty whether there is more than one guest who has posted to this thread so far, I don't accept that there is no way of telling if the guest is a troll.

Read what I'm saying. My anonymity isn't the issue here, racist messages being tolerated in Mudcat is the issue.

Didn't you just say a wee bit ago that the issue of anonymous posting didn't need to be debated? So why are you now turning to that nonsequiter again (as you know you have in the past when the subject turns serious, and makes you uncomfortable)?

I challenge you Mudcatters to put your money where your mouths are: be fair. Discuss this seriously and sensitively by sticking to the subject at hand. Don't fall into your old behaviors of trying to silence the discussion by making anonymity the issue when it isn't.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

Jeri, your point about guilt would be valid if people were actually taking a stand against the racist posts. They aren't.

Why? Why do you refuse to denounce the racist messages?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM

If anyone here does not detest racism in all its forms and at all times, would they please identify themselves here.

And then leave for good.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

Thanks so much for your efforts at saving us from ourselves and molding the forum into your own image. Yes, without you, we are going to hell in a handbasket, so we are all deeply in your debt for pointing out our fallacies and foibles. I hold your perfection as an almost unattainable goal that I shall strive for daily in the hopes that I too can one day piss and moan with compassion for all.

My dear troll, which creates your own heaven,
Hallowed be you unnamed Guest.
Thy trolling comes and your will is done
At Mudcat as it is at rec.folk.
Give us this day your bullshit opinions
And forgive us our crapping on you
As we forgive those who crap upon us.
Lead us not into rational discussion
But keep throwing out those troll lines
For you are an asshole, a cocksucker, and a pissant.
........Amen.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:10 PM

Racism is bad, I hope all the racists go away. YA HAPPY NOW GUEST?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:10 PM

I take my stands in real life, not in a forum where arguing and causing havoc for mere entertainment are so often demonstrably preferable to actually thinking together about things. I may learn things here that help me take those stands, but this is not where I take them.

This IS a place where I try to live what I believe, the best I can each day, and although I often fall short I try again. I would be willing to bet that the same is true of everyone else, although I do not pretend to always understand what they put out in front for us to see, here. *G* And I don't expect others to understand what I put out front, either.

Understanding requires relationship and time, and some skills, and some commitment to use them with one another. Those relationships can take root here but they are not present widely enough that we can even agree yet on musical things-- things that bring us together TO this place-- much less the things on which we differe even more deeply as parts of our identities. To expect a greater degree of understanding is to miss what this medium can and cannot do, I think.

Speaking strictly personally it is hard for me to see this as a racist place when there is so much diversity present, expressed, and undertaken in a responsible way, and when there are a bazillion spirituals posted on a regular basis that are being sung with respect and delight by people all over the globe.

And a place that allows free speech does not necessarily endorse all that is said. I always thought that was kinda Max's whole point-- that we are each responsible for what we say.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM

because denouncing the posts brings the posts back to the top of the threads;(where they are more apparent) because denounceing the posts is exactly the behavior wanted if it is a troll (which to be perfectly frank it does appear to be) ; because denouncing the threads gives credibility to the original poster...

silence does not always mean agreement.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

I get really worried about anyone who is "Deeply concerned" about ANYTHING that happens in the ephemeral non-world of the internet... then I realise that I can spend my energy in much better ways and the thought goes away...

I've seen Mudcat be a lot of things, but racist?? Naaaahh!

"racist, anti-Semitic messages are profoundly painful and hurtful to read for some of us who are members of the group being attacked."

THEN DON'T READ THEM!!!!!

D'uh!!!!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

Upon entering college in 1960, I was asked to join a popular fraternity. I declined the honor because all my friends would not be elligible for membership due to race or ethnicity. How could my friends respect me if I willingly joined an organization that wouldn't include them?

Mudcat isn't an organization or even a place, really. It's just an electronic microcosm of the world as we know it. Most of us are honest, caring, honorable folks but there are also liars, sneaks, bigots, baiters and the full gammit of undesireables you'd find anywhere else. I'm not sure it's practical to think in terms of insulating Mudcat from those people. I'd like to be able to make them feel unwanted and I think maybe they do feel unwanted, unfortunately that doesn't necessarily keep them away.

I can't fix the world and I guess that means I can't fix Mudcat either. I can't control people's minds and hearts, all I can do is offer support for all people who are unjustly demeaned by others. I'd like to be able to teach brotherhood to everyone but I suspect this isn't the most effective forum for that.

I noticed there was another thread on folk music and politics. It reminded me that when I became involved in folk music, we didn't have to worry much about undesirable traits in people. The undesireables didn't come around much because we had nothing of interest for them. The ones who stayed for the music and the company also learned caring and tolerance, even if they didn't arrive with those attributes when they first showed up. Maybe that process could still work. Who knows?

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

simply *announcing* that there are racist posts, and demanding that everyone stand up and denounce them is very like Eugene McCarthy *announcing* that the government is full of communists!! It is also VERY like the problem of defining 'folk music'...it just ain't that clear what IS and what ISN'T in many cases...YOU, dear guest, seem to have your 'racist post detection meter' set on very sensitive. GET IT THRU YOUR HEAD that not everyone sees it as YOU do!...and when you want to complain, copy and paste the specific lines you object to!...I don't read every message here, and I do NOT see the degree of problem you are in such a righteous flap about!

Spell it out...or shut up!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

I am somewhat tired of people who expect other people to stand up for them when they don't have the guts to stand up for themselves--which is what it seems like you are doing, GUEST--and, so seem a bit silly talking about what we "shouldn't tolerate, ever"--when you won't even extend the civility of identifying yourself, which is something that some of us think shouldn't be tolerated, ever--

As it stands, people may drop in and start a thread here without identifying themselves and people, like you, take advantage of it to grind whatever axes they may have hidden up their sleeves--

I have my doubts as to your sincerity, though, and, you could easily be the same guest that posted the anti-semitic stuff, as well as the one who has been posting all the other anonymous crap--I think this is particularly likely, owing to the fact that, while you are unclear on which posts, threads, and comments, you find objectionable, you are very pointed in the insults that you make to the forum and its inhabitants--


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

Guest/Trolls = fire
Responses = the oxygen necessary to keep the fire burning


Extinguish these fires.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM

Now what a minute, Spaw; in your (cleverly worded, by the way) "Lord's Prayer" parody - you seem to be implying that a cocksucker is a bad thing. I suppose there could be some instances where this is true, but probably not too many. Surely you made a mistake in choosing that word!


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Subject: Mapflap: a racy sporran?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Dang!

I musta missed that first time through here... LOL!!!!

That's way too funny spaw!!!

But I do have to side with Jed on yer choice of insults...

Heh...

;-)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,AliUK
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

you know what...the arabs and the jews have been at each others throats for a long time...egged on by imperialist interests for various reasons. Personlly I couldn't give a flying fuck what your religion or, ethnic background is. GUEST: I would suspect that you will now think of me as a racist or an anti-semite ( what do you call a jew-hating arab? Or an arab-hating jew? An anti-semite semite?), but there are other things that I think are more important than being involved in a pissing contest between two nations. This will never be resolved because the parties involved don't particularly want it to be resolved, so why should I bother to get involved? It's not part of my reality. What I won't tolerate is someone who hasn't got the guts to put their name up badmouthing my friends on the 'Cat. I've been involved here for getting on for 4 years and a nicer, more supportive bunch of people I have never met...so stick it up your arse GUEST ( I suggest the handle Chickenshit)and go play somewhere else. Oh, by the way My name is Alistair Robb and I live in Recife, Brazil. That is if you want to come round and settle this like an arab and a jew that is.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Yeah, you're right.....very useful! Very pleasurable....

HEY!!! Can I get an Joe Clone to substitute "Motherfucker" for "Cocksucker?"

I don't think they're too acceptable, unless they're your Dad..................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Bill, I assume you meant to refer to Sen. Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin. Sen. Eugene McCarthy was a peace candidate for President and poet as well if I recall.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Attacking the messenger only makes you folks look bad in the most defensive, circle the wagons sort of way. Just proves you are too cowardly to deal with the substantive issue raised.

Bill--it wasn't Eugene, it was Joe.

I read here all the time about how so many of you feel that Mudcat is a real community. So then, when it is pointed out that your community is tolerating and trivializing racist behavior in it's midst, suddenly it isn't "real life" anymore.

Why should racist behavior in an Internet forum not be confronted, particularly when so many forums on the Internet are being infiltrated with hatemongers? It is a very real problem on-line.

And why this double standard--some of you are up in arms over the treatment of Morticia, but apparently don't care how badly you offend Mudcat's Jewish population. Why is that?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,AliUk
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM

I apologise to my friends in the 'Cat who happen to be jewish. I have never criticised anyone for their race or creed and I never will. My comments were directed at GUEST (chickenshit) and I would hate for anyone of you to think that I was making a statement about the jewish race in general.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM

oh, lordy! *blushing 27 shades of red*....too sleepy and frustrated to read my own words, I guess..Yep..JOE McCarthy....

(as the complaint...I finally followed a thread and FOUND a hateful, racist post...I hereby condemn it..ok?...now what?...I can't go get the poster and shake him, any more than I can go get anonymous complainers and shake THEM)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,Lilith
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM

So racist behavior in Mudcat is only bad if it hurts *your* friends?

There are a whole lot of posts in the UN thread about the Jewish race in general which are very offensive to me. And now there is another thread trivializing the racist behavior being exhibited here--started by the members, not by an anonymous guest.

That says something about those members, and the forum. Not only are they and it racist, they also don't give a damn who knows it, or who it harms.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,Donal Sharkey
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM

I also note that in the Member Photos and Profiles, none of the members are people of color. So just what is this great Mudcat diversity of which you speak WYSIWYG?

This forum has always seemed pretty WASP to me. The racism we're seeing exhibited here in the past few days by some members and guests alike certainly hasn't changed that perception.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:36 PM

Ah, I'm happy now.

Joe Clones quickly made the Mudcat safe from racist, sexist, and sleazy trolls, by deleting the thread "Niggers, Cunts and Cocksuckers"--but not the anti-Semitic messages which have offended some of us.

Proves the point perfectly that anti-Semites are free to post their hate and vitriol, and for Catspaw and others to use the word cocksucker.

But the Joes won't be having words nigger and cunt in THEIR forum, nosireee...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

The P in WASP doesn't fit here.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM

OK, I denouce racism. I also denouce trolling, flaming, stalking, name calling and obscenity. You happy now?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Well some of my best friends are WASPS, but I'm not.

I haven't seen much I'd call racism here. What I think I've seen is someone using racist posts as a way of trying to exert some kind of control over the Mudcat. Or possibly as a way of ensuring that any serious discussion about what racism is, and where it shows itself should be stopped before it could begin.

I think that is the kind of thing that could be useful. We are a transnational set of people who have sometimes shown ourselves capable of talking about those kinds of things without falling into name calling and posturing. And God knows, it's terribly relevant to folk music - which has time and time again been used by racists, and used by people fighting racists.

But the water here has been terribly muddied, and intentionally muddied by one or two people who may or may not be racists, but are definitely trying to manipulate us. I can't see this as a time or place to have that discussion. And it could well be that they will do it again and again, and succeed in ensuring that it can't ever happen on the Mudcat, and that they will succeed in a nasty little operation.

But I thinkmit is more likely we will develop some effective strategy for dealing with this particular sneaky tactic.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:00 PM

Bigotry is the real problem here. Bigots hide behind anti-racist 'ideals', and give the impression that they are making a moral stand.

Unfortunately, Mudcat isn't the only place where these people make their presence felt. What about those unfortunate Belfast schoolchildren? Confused, defenceless, and undeserving of the treatment meted out to them - bigotry in the guise of religion, which is often the 'real' issue...

Makes you feel sick...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM

McGrath,

The issue is timely--the UN thread was started in response to Israel and the US walking out of the conference being held as we speak.

So just how is it manipulative to discuss the issue here and now, while this international conference is taking place? This is an international folk music forum. With members doing a lot of talkin' the talk, and not walkin' the walk.

A whole lot of people here regularly claim to be civil and human rights supporters and defenders. Why not denounce racism and bigotry this time, in this instance, and in this place?

If not here, where? If not now, when?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM

No Sorcha, it isn't good enough.

Mudcatters banding together to demand that the racist messages be removed would be good enough.

It took a mere handful of complaints to get the Morticia thread removed today. I fail to see how those messages are more offensive than the anti-Semitic messages are to Jewish members of this forum.

Swift action to delete that thread. Swift action (almost instantaneous in fact) to the thread I title "Niggers, cunts and cocksuckers" just to prove how swiftly these so-called "editorial" decisions get made.

And yet, for some reason, the message from "Guest Jewboy" remains. Why?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

My mistake--it was "Guest Little Jewford"...

...and the previous two guest messages before it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:37 PM

Why are any of you responding to this? Anonymous GUESTs, however many there are, demand respect without any accountability on their part. There is no proof offered that any of them is Jewish, black, or any other colour. Even in court one does not have to justify themselves without a chance to face their accuser, warts and all.

There is plenty of evidence on the Mudcat, which a search will show, in which Mudcatters prove time and again that the majority are not-racist.

This and the other anonymous crap is just SOS - Same Old Shit.

kat


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:48 PM

kat,

Why on earth would you claim only Jews and blacks are offended by racist behavior happening in their midst?

Racist behavior might not rear it's ugly head often on Mudcat, but it certainly has in recent days. So why, if Mudcatters have proved time and time again they aren't racist, aren't Mudcatters demanding these racist messages be removed?

Or are Mudcatters true colors coming through in this instance,as I suspect they are?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

See what I mean?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:15 PM

A photo of our esteemed "Guest".


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: SeanM
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

*Please don't feed the trolls*


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:55 PM

If GUEST were really concerned about racism in general and antisemitism in particular, there are plenty of websites out there that he/she/it could vent his/her/its spleen on. Mudcat racist? Other than an occasional very rare lapse into bad taste, usually on joke threads, I don't recall much of anything on Mudcat that I would consider racist--until GUEST showed up.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM

And yes, I have seen the "UN Conference on Racism" thread. It was started by GUEST. And I made my opinion known here. In case you have any doubt, GUEST, I was referring to you.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Trapper
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM

How about 'dem Vikings, eh? Isn't this weather AMAZING? Do ya t'ink we're gonna have an early frost, or what??

- Al


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: toadfrog
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:37 PM

I think there are many countries which have great folk music traditions, which have been given little attention until now. I have an emigrant disk with a fine song from the Polish mountain region. Anyone familiar with that?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM

Guest,

Time to tell us who you are, and who you represent--no more bullshit--speak--until this issue is resolved, there is no value in anyone responding to you--for someone who claims to take the moral high road, it is curious you resort to the tactics of anonymous harrassment and abuse--your comments are twisted generalities, textbook devices from the mudslingers handbook--

It is abundantly clear that, far from having any interest in dialog or discussion, your agenda is to intimidate, abuse, and bait--Your views aren't legitimate, you disgrace the cause that you claim to advance, and you don't deserve any response at all--


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

I think we should ignore him, he's obviously a bloody nutcase.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM

And I suspect he (or she) is the same GUEST as the one who wrote that crap about Jews. The aim, I surmise, being to try to close down the discussion while pretending to open it up. In which case it has been distressingly successful.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM

I mean the anti-semitic crap about Jew, just in case anyone misunderstands me, or makes out that they do.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:35 PM

Sorcha sent me a great recipe for Eggplant. It's similar to a Eggplant dish my late wife use to prepare. Neither of us were very fund of this funny looking vegetable and neither of us had found a dish made with it very tasty. Sorcha's recipe sounds better and if I really craved Eggplant, I surely would try it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: AliUK
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM

Man hate this pretentious crap that "Guest: Chickenshit" is rolling. M. Ted said it best and refuse to be branded racist or anti-semitic by someone who neither knows me or has the balls to identify themselves. I am not a bigot, my wife is of mixed race as is 60% of the population out here and this neither the time or the place for this kind of "discussion". I just hope that this little person goes away soon.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

He/she ain't gonna go away as long as we feed him/her.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Trapper
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM

I'm feeding Jambalaya at our House Concert this Saturday! Anybody got any good recipes?

- Al


The last flame post in this thread was over four hours ago. I'd like to thank the rest of you for keeping this miserable thread alive, along with the others.
Why???
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: fiddlegal
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

What I don't understand is why you don't talk about music. I've been lurking for a long, long time and it never ceases to amaze me the lack of music or instrument discussion on a platform that is supposed to be about music. If people on this forum would read the posts and not feel compelled to have their words read by the masses, they would see the underlying current of racism and religious hypocrasy that is so evident. I've never believed in censorship, however, there appears to be no consistency in which nasty posts are deleted and which are not. Could it be that, if the attack is against a "favorite son" it's deleted? But, if the attack is against a race or religion, it's not deleted? Hmmm. I would say it's food for thought, but my time is more precious, so I will return to lurkdom (audible sighs of relief from the regulars) and checking in for posts relevant to my music.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:59 PM

Welcome to Mudcat fiddlegal, things get a bit weird here at times, there is plenty of music here.Just type in guitar or whatever in the filter box and you will find some good threads, check out the FAQ as well, I am a bit new here and I was confused at first, still am!
Welcome again, stick around most people here are really friendly.john


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM

Welcome, fiddlegal. Ignore the man behind the curtain.
And watch out for 'Spaw.

troll (the real one)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM

I'd certainly be willing to let it go Joe, but then Trapper asked for Jambalaya recipes, and I love Jambalaya ...so I've got to stay tuned!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Sourdough
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM

After reading the first ten messages or so. I stopped so I don't know what was said after that. I find that a thread started by an anonymous person and fed by others anonymous persons or the same anonymous person insisting on lecturing the readers as to what our moral positions are is wasteful of my time.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:30 AM

I dissent with a majority (or perhaps just many) of Mudcatters on two points:

(1) While I agree that it is the best strategy not to respond to the usual troll at all, with a downright racist or abusive (of a part of the population) statement it looks like silent consent to a casual visitor if nobody responds. I do not think we all should post statements like 'Me too, I strongly oppose...' but one single response telling in no dubious terms that both style and content of the post in question is not at all endorsed by the Mudcat community would be a strong sign. And after that: silence

(2) I do not think that multi-posting thread creep does any good in these cases. It reminds me of family reunions when a distant uncle makes a particularly nasty and abusive remark and after ten seconds of embarrassed silence everybody talks about weather and food as if nothing had happened. This behaviour trivialises (I think Tedham was the first to use this term in another thread) the insult and gives it an even more prominent place. In a context of recipies or whatever the insult seems tolerable whereas in a context of one sharp rebuttal and then silence it stands out as what it is: ugly and in no way acceptable in our community.

I agree, however, that contrary to GUESTs opinion the Mudcat elves do a good job in keeping erasing threads or posts to a minimum. It is easy to point to apparent or imagined inconsistencies (why do they remove the whole 'Mudcatter A is sexy' thread and only remove the name in 'Mudcatter B has a fat arse' and so on ad nauseam), but it's a difficult job and they are doing it very well.

Wolfgang


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Subject: Music vs./non music threads
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:11 AM

Fiddlegal said: "What I don't understand is why you don't talk about music..." and more.

I would have to beg to disagree here. I just went back over the titles of the current prevailing threads. The majority are music/folk world related. We have quite a few lyric requests, tune requests, many seperate threads on spirituals, lots of "song challenge" threads, and so on.

There is a lot of music to be had out there, and it is easy enough to avoid the ones that are not. They *usually* say "BS". :)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:14 AM

I think I'm probably at least somewhat in agreement with your suggestions, Wolfgang.

I think that if people are going to follow your advice, it might also be constructive to suggest that if a response is made stating that the Mudcat doesn't endorse the view that has been stated, it would probably be wise to only respond to the view that has been expressed, and not make any kind of comment or statement of opinion about the person who made the offensive post. That sort of thing seems to have a tendency to feed the flames rather than helping to put them out.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,from skarpi Iceland.
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM

Hello all, I think we should shut down this thread if we can´t talk about this matter in a good manners way, some of the words are not good to use. Yes there´s are racist in the world even here in Iceland, but does it have to mean that the coverment´s don´t like thouse matter´s, does the coverment´s have people with them??. The world is getting smaller every day and people are coming and going to country´s all over the world to get a better live and can we blaim them ? what would we do ? I think we would do the same. I hope that my spelling is okei, and I hope we all can live in peace. Love to you all, the winter is slowly moving to us. All the best skarpi Iceland. Maybe I don´t understand this thread if so forgive me.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,not in hull lurker
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

It seems to me that some guests are actively looking to find racists comment and are making a big item out of what was probably an innocent remark. Stop seeing yourself as victim and stop trying to undermine our wonderful community here, infact just go away, I can't be bothered with you.
nihl


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:10 AM

As long as this thread is back at the top of the list anyway: I agree with Wolfgang and CarolC.

Racism is not trivial, it is not funny, and it should not be tolerated.

The End.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,Mr. Science
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM

The term "race" and "racism" seem to be getting thrown around in rather confusing ways. For example, I am confused as to how Jews could be racist toward Arabs considering that, theoretically, they are derived from the same region and genetic stock. It might be more practical to speak in terms of ethnic/politically-based predjudice and discrimination.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:42 AM

Racism, ethnically/politically-based prejudice and discrimination are not trivial, they are not funny, and they should not be tolerated.

[please, let's make this] The END.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM

I agree with Kat and most others who say that respect must be adhered to. Does that mean we cannot challange views expressed? Does that mean we have to accomodate them? NO! I'll venture to say that most of you have never faced racism, including our esteemed GUEST. This Cherokee has seen it ( and lived with it ) all of my life. My experience, once an otherwise thoughtful people are made aware of their subtile forms of racism, they gladly change.

One other opinion, Guest, you are showing such signs of overt racism that it would probably benefit you to take a step back and re-evaluate your passion and thoughts.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:33 PM

Because it was causing serious disruptions in my real world existence, about six months ago, I made a promise to myself never, never to post again to a BS thread that had a hurtful, controversial or obviously leading topic; or one which seemed bound to go off the rails at the onset; or threads that, despite their general interest to me, would require my full time and attention, if I wanted to participate or contribute fully. (I love song challenges, for instance, but they are so delightfully easy to get sucked into, at my rate of brain function, a whole day or night could disappear.)

Yup, there is a lot of cruel and distasteful electronic graffiti on the internet, but I usually don't have the time in my life right now, to spend it in an Internet cybergame of "ain't it awful". I also don't usually feel the need to have to explain my feelings and philosophical viewpoints on most issues, in order to assure someone that I'm on their side and anything I post, will never convert a "true believer" with an agenda. They are not posting to seriously engage in an interchange of ideas, only to try to make points for their chosen side. A dear departed friend once gave me the following advice, "Once you get the message, hang up the phone." Works when I can remember it.

Although I can see the wisdom of deleting hurtful threads that are targeted at individual members of Mudcat, I am not in favour of general censorship, no matter how personally abhorrent I may find the content. And if anyone cares to think they have sussed out who or what I am from my comment or lack of comment, they are entitled to their opinion and I consider myself fair game, as this is a very public place and for better or for worse, I have chosen to hang my hat here.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,Walking Eagle
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:33 PM

let me put this out to the real catters. I think what we are seeing here is a form of site infiltration being practiced by cyber guerellas (sp?). Note that we are being asked in another thread to sign a petition about WTO medicine practices.

I hearby affirm, that if it ain't got nuthin to do with music, I'm not looking at it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM

I'm saddened to see a subject like this. Calling someone a racist is too easy. It's a kind of name-calling that doesn't address the solution to such a problem.

I believe that people are entitled to intelligent differences of opinion without having to be subject to invective.

Mudcat is not a racist forum. It's an enlightened discussion by many who are quite knowledgeable in the field of folk music and this is the reason I read it.

"Racist" is one of the buzz-words like "Communist" or (fill in the blanks).

Frank


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 04:49 PM

As a teacher, I learned that respect is earned, not demanded...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:42 PM

Ekh. What a load. Just when I thought I couldn't hate America any more... Seriously, someone from a good country: Adopt me. ----Lepus Rex

Thanks to Jeri for the link to this site.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:59 PM

I agree very strongly with Joe Offer. This thread should never have gone past two posts, at the most. What most of you seem to be missing is that the First Ammendment gets more than lip service here, most of the time. If the KKK gets a permit to march through your town, are you supporting your values better if you go to jeer at them?...or is it better if you stay away and urge your friends to do the same?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 11:32 AM

I always thought Jeri was the smart Mudcatter. I couldn't have posted my trolls without her links.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:38 AM

Cowards hide behind the face of anonymity. Assholes hide behide the guise of superior morality. Looks like we have both here. If this statement offends you Guest, you may pm me although I will answer your silly assed allegations here if need be. I would prefer you pm rather than tie up valuable space that can be devoted to music.

To get this back to where it rightly belongs, Toadfrog I do have an interest in Polish folk music among others. What would the name of the CD be and is it available for open purchase? kindest regards to all, Neil PS- guest, if you really want Mudcat to take a stand on this issue why not join instead of hiding in the shadows?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat a racist forum?
From: wildlone
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:09 PM

mudcat is a music forum.
Click here for racist forum!
dave


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