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Lesbians, Gays and folk music

John MacKenzie 09 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Sep 12 - 08:39 AM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 06:35 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Sep 12 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,One of the lesbians 09 Sep 12 - 02:21 AM
PHJim 09 Sep 12 - 12:49 AM
Janice in NJ 01 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,GROK 01 Sep 04 - 02:10 AM
Once Famous 31 Aug 04 - 10:41 PM
GUEST,8:11 31 Aug 04 - 09:11 PM
Grab 31 Aug 04 - 02:22 PM
GUEST 31 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Aug 04 - 03:35 AM
Janice in NJ 29 Aug 04 - 10:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Aug 04 - 07:11 AM
Once Famous 28 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,GROK 28 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,GROK 28 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Aug 04 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,GROK 28 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM
GUEST 27 Aug 04 - 09:43 PM
Once Famous 27 Aug 04 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Murkey 27 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM
Janice in NJ 18 Jul 03 - 12:31 PM
katlaughing 16 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM
Janice in NJ 16 Jul 03 - 10:22 AM
katlaughing 28 Jun 03 - 06:18 PM
Janice in NJ 28 Jun 03 - 05:36 PM
Marion 14 May 03 - 06:21 PM
axman664 14 May 03 - 04:51 PM
Janice in NJ 14 May 03 - 06:58 AM
s&r 14 May 03 - 02:29 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 May 03 - 11:16 PM
Rapparee 13 May 03 - 10:31 PM
katlaughing 13 May 03 - 10:02 PM
Janice in NJ 13 May 03 - 08:31 PM
Janice in NJ 17 Feb 02 - 11:12 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 02 - 08:02 PM
katlaughing 17 Feb 02 - 07:52 PM
Joe_F 17 Feb 02 - 06:57 PM
katlaughing 16 Feb 02 - 09:44 PM
Joe_F 16 Feb 02 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,Lyle 16 Feb 02 - 05:03 PM
Janice in NJ 16 Feb 02 - 03:21 PM
RichM 16 Feb 02 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,MAG at work 16 Feb 02 - 12:00 PM
Janice in NJ 16 Feb 02 - 09:02 AM
katlaughing 16 Feb 02 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 16 Feb 02 - 12:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM

Nice to see Dick doing his excellent Jack Campin impression, there.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 08:39 AM

It's about the music, nothing else.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:35 AM

who cares, get on with enjoying music, and stop talking crap


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:37 AM

Some are more visible than others. ;)


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,One of the lesbians
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 02:21 AM

PHJim

'gay and lesbian' is shorthand for gay men and lesbians (although we, within the queer community, also use a lot of other terms to describe ourselves).


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: PHJim
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 12:49 AM

Sorry for the thread drift, but I've noticed many people say, "gay and lesbian." It has always seemed redundant to me, kind of like saying, "vehicles and trucks." Isn't "lesbian" a subset of "gay"? I can understand using one word or the other, but not "gay AND lesbian".
Is there a reason for using both words?


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM

There are plenty of folk songs about homosexuality, but almost all of them are bawdy, either songs in their own right or else parodies. Sometimes there is just a passing reference. For example in The Bastard King of England you find this verse:

The Duke of Sussex got on a horse,
And rode straightway to France,
Where he swore he was a fluter,
So the king he dropped his pants.

And in The Ball of Kerrymuir there are these lines:

Oh, the Ball, the Ball of Kerrymuir,
Where your wife and my wife were firkin on the floor.

Presumably they were firkin each other, although they simply could have been separately firkin other parties, male or female. The lesbian possibilities add to the humor.

Then there are entire bawdy songs, including the following political parody of Puff the Magic Dragon. The songs deals with the exclusion of lesbians and gay men from New York City's annual Saint Patrick's Day Parade. The courts have ruled that the parade is a purely private event sponsored by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and if A.O.H. doesn't want to let them march they have every right to do so.

PAT THE IRISH FAGGOT

Oh, Pat the Irish faggot,
Lived in New York town,
And dreamed about the big parade,
When Saint Patrick's Day came round.
Pat the Irish faggot,
Lived in New York town,
And dreamed about the big parade,
When Saint Patrick's Day came round.

But the cardinals and bishops,
Said that buggery's a crime,
Unless it's done to altar boys,
Below the age of nine.
Still Paddy waited patiently,
Again each year he'd try,
Said the leaders of the A.O.H.:
"No faggots need apply!"

Then one sad day it happened,
Poor Paddy he turned straight,
And like a good straight Irishman,
He joined the A.O.H.
But at his initiation,
Much too his surprise,
A hundred naked Irishmen,
Pranced before his eyes.

Some had gaping ass-holes,
And some had quivering hips,
Some of them had hard-ons,
Or semen on their lips,
Some of them were married,
Some celebrated mass,
And some went up to Paddy,
And kissed his Irish ass.

Now Pat the Irish faggot,
Marches every year,
You can watch him blow his Irish pipes,
And never know he's queer.
While the A.O.H. will tell you,
That gayness is a sin,
Pat the Irish faggot knows,
Their secret's safe with him!

Before you slam me for posting a homophobic and hibernophobic song, let me state that I got it from members of the Irish Lesbian and Gay Organization, the group that has been fighting for the right to join the New York parade.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:10 AM

I think the world has an unnecessary harshness to it at times, and our treatment of people is not always just or justified. We make decisions based on dogma and culture--basically anthropomorphic logic, and it tends to precipitate an intolerance that is not necessary. I am as guilty of that as anyone, and other than to note that in myself and resolve to change as best I can, I'll have to let it go at that.

I do see where the various 'sides' are coming from, and it is not my intent to fault anyone's argument or personal view. I simply will try to amend my own. That will include my language on future threads.

GROK ON!


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:41 PM

How about, "I've got the gay roid blues"?


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,8:11
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:11 PM

If there can be folk songs about incest { not that I'm comparing the two } then why not songs about homosexuality ? I would think it would be rather easy to change a few pronouns around. Wouldn't that be considered the "folk process"??


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Grab
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:22 PM

Scene: Broadstairs Folk Festival. Event: Belly-dancing workshop demonstration. 42 women (of varying ages between something-teen and 50-something). 2 lads, one in his teens and one in his 30s. Latter is wearing a rather vivid pair of trousers and not much else, and is giving it some with the waving arms.

Woman stood next to my wife: "Look at that guy - I bet he's gay."

My wife (taking photos of us): "I'm afraid not - that's my husband."

Moral: Don't prejudge from what people are doing or playing... In fact, don't prejudge at all, just get out there, do what you like, and enjoy it. :-)

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM

Hmmm there's an awful lot of wankers in the world. The gay men sticking it in their face, yeah of course we should all have to hide our sexualities in public so as not to make any of the proper straight men embarrassed. As long as we keep it a shady little secret and don't shake your tiny little world view that's fine. Sigh.

I'm afriad the sad reality is that most gay people do keeps it to themselves because of twats like you making so awkward to be open about their love lives.

Folk music has always been crucial in telling the stories of the ignored sub-cultures, giving a voice to those who don't have one. Such as gay people, who are told they can only exist if they keep quiet about the prejudice they constantly face.

Murk


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:35 AM

No seriously. I take the initial questioners point - the male gay experience isn't really reflected that much in the folk music world. Having said that, I don't suppost the daily experience of most of us is - there is such a bias about talking about 'safe' folk subjects - bringing in the sheep, sailing the high seas, fighting the first world war, etc.

The feeling that modern folk writers like Dylan seemed in the 60's to be talking about the current world - albeit in very abstract terms - is almost gone.

As for the idea of homosexuality being pushed down ones throat, at a folk club.....well like I say, it doesn't happen round here a lot - if it happens where these other guys live - they have my sympathies.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:02 PM

Come on, boys, please be civil with one another.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:11 AM

well round here things aren't so advanced. I'm sure there must be gays at the local folk club, but I wouldn't have a clue who they were - which is sort of sad.

Anyway Martin, if anyone wants to stick it in your face - you could always try step ladders.....


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM

Right, Grok.

I don't really care either except the gays just seem to want to stick it in everyone's face.

It's such a "it's so about me" attitude.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM

Besides, if the music is any good, it will be listened to.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

weelittledrummer: That is true. However, write and sing the songs. If the songs express the emotions that result from relationships or sexuality--hey, folk is diverse enough to handle it all. I appeared and sang for gay groups--male and female--in the late '60s and early '70s--before it became a fashionable thing to do. I am a hetero. Yes, people--all people--have a history to tell. So, tell it. But, asking if gays have a place in folk: What the hell does that mean? Make a place. It is NOT a closed community.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:15 PM

I suppose the answer is that like ethnic diversity it can enrich our lives to be more open to the different ways humanity expresses itself.

Its not a question what goes where and who does what to whom. see Christy moores song the Pink Triangle - the gays have their story and history to tell - they are entitled to their place in the circle.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM

Frankly, who gives a shit? Gay, straight, bi, non: Other than the pronouns, what the fu#k does a person's sexuality have to do with folk music? It's FOLK music, not FU#K music. And really, who cares? I like having sex with women. Want to hear about my angst when gays laugh at me? Get a life fer crissake. Some woman gets off eating pussy, should I be concerned about that? Some guy likes cocksucking: so what? You wanna be gay, straight, bi--DO SO. Just shut up about it. No one CARES.

Bye all.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM

The old joke :-

What's the difference between a straight and a bisexual?
Answer: about ten pints

on that basis the folk clubs would be a very a pretty good place to find the perfect partner to cop off with - full of men, mostly pissed, many of them excesively anal (when it comes to guitars at least).

The real answer to this thread is surely the role of the women's peace movement - Greenham etc. they were all great singers. they sort of were sort of progressive and expressive, when most men were singing about how shocking it was being in a foxhole in the first world war, and then the gaffer come an give you a clip round the ear....etc.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:43 PM

A country singer? Don't you know that's against God's laws, you perverted backwards little creep? I don't give me the 'I was born a country singer, and can't change the way I am' crap either. Tiddly he.

Murk


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:37 PM

Oh, yuck.

I'm kind of glad I am more of a country singer.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Murkey
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM

Interesting thread. As a 21 year old folkie guy in England I get very frustrated by the lack of gay presence in the folk scene. I have never related to the gay scene which really is the fulfillment of all the stereotypes that exist about gay men, being full of desperate, sleazy, shallow guys being bomabarded by godawful chessy music (this is especially the case in small towns which can't offer the variety of somewhere like London, which at least has a few gay rock nights).

Ironic as it sounds, the gay scene has become so ingrained in its current form that it is actually very difficult to be an individual and be into anything but high camp and one night stands!
Every year I go to Sidmouth Folk Festival and stare dreamily at the sexy, hippy dreadlocked guys. Yeah I know, logic dictates there must be other gay guys into folk, but they're bloody hard to find!

I guess the problem is identifying myself as gay. Whilst violence can be a problem, a greater issue is the little differences in how people treat me. I have a lot of male blokey friends there, and whilst I doubt they would stop talking to me if they knew I was gay, I know from experience that it tends to change the way I'm treated. There's always a bit more distance and iciness, like they're constantly watching what they say! There's few enough young folkies, and I don't have any living near me as regular friends, so when I go to festivals the last thing I want to do is tell a bunch of near strangers I'm gay. But if I don't tell anyone, how can I meet anyone?

This year I even posted a question on outintheuk.com several months in advance asking if any other gay guys were going to Sidmouth, and only one (considerably older) guy replied.

I guess the fact that folk music has a lot of the older generation still actively involved means that homosexuality is still more taboo. There's certainly a white, middle class beardy element to it all, one that isn't very open to alternate sexualities in the same way as a young music culture like electronica and dance music, or pop is. I'd certainly feel more comfortable kissing a guy in a straight club (as in a DJ club) than I would in a folk club!

I think the lesbian singer-songwriters are connected to the feminist movement. There is a strong connection between lesbainism and feminism, and hence the desire to sing and fight for the issues that matter.
At its best, the gay male scene has a lot more of a 'fuck you, I'm going to be as outrageous as i want and you have to put up with it' rebellion to it, more like the vitriol of punk than the elegance of folk! The trouble is that now I think the scene has failed to progress beyond that initial impact and has got into a self-contained rut, and its going nowhere in terms of supporting gay men who don't fit the very narrow criteria that is catered for. So here's hoping for some clever and wise folk singers to rectify this imbalance. Or at the very least a sexy hippy boyfriend for me!

Murk


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:31 PM

This weekend WXPN in Philadelphia is presenting its annual Singer-Songwriters' show. The lesbian and gay community will be out in force to demonstrate outside, from 12 noon to 2 pm on Sunday, July 20. For information you can e-mail: SaveAmazonRadio@aol.com

Taking Amazon Country off the air after 29 years, and replacing it with some so-called "family oriented" garbage means that even the so-called "listener sponsored" radio stations are being Bogarted by the homophobic religious right. If we, and I mean all of us, don't stand up to this crap now, they will crush us one-by-one like one of Sharon's bulldozers going through a grove of olive trees!


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM

So they've caved into the far right? Are there any protests to which we could contribute our comments? That is really arrogant and stupid of them.

On a more positive note, we watched the debut of a new show on Bravo, last night, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy featuring the "Fab Five." It was a mix of Changing Rooms, What Not to Wear, gourmet cooking, and grooming for their "victim." It was really fun and well done. The first heterosexual guy they helped was an artist for whom they'd set up his first gallery show. His apt. was a disaster, so in one day, they redid the whole thing, taught him how to make some great finger food for the showing that night, took him to get his hair styled, advised him on buying a bunch of new clothes, and gave him tips on "schmoozin'" at the show to best show his art, plus they had "takeaway" cards designed and printed for people interested in his art. They did a total makeover of him, while still keeping him comfortable and essentially himself, nothing phony or put-upon. He seemed really pleased and had an art critic give him rave reviews.

The second guy was married with kids on Long Island who wanted to surprise his wife with a b-day party, including a makeover for their house and him. It was equally as fun and engaging.

I noticed next Tuesday, Bravo is also going to premiere a reality show for gay dating, BUT I don't like the sounds of it, as it will be one guy choosing from 15 others, some of whom are straight. I remember the heartaches my brother and friends have gone through agonising over whether someone was gay or straight and falling in love with a straight guy and how hard that was to get over. I don't think the show should exploit that.

Sorry for the slight thread drift.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 10:22 AM

I just learned that Amazon Country, the USA's longest running lesbian-feminist-women's music radio program has been canceled by its host station, WXPN in Philadelphia.

What is WXPN's reason for canceling a show that has been on the air since 1974 and has won numerous broadcasting awards? Well, WXPN management has stated that they are interested in making more air time available for "family oriented" radio programs. Apparently lesbians and/or feminist and/or women don't live in families. Or else their families just don't count.

WXPN, a listener-supported station affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania, broadcasts at 88.5 FM. Amazon Country can still be heard for the next two weeks on Sunday, from 9 to 10 PM Eastern Time. Then it's "Hit the road, Jack!" Or should I say "Hit the road, Jackie!"?


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:18 PM

Same to you, Janice! Nice to see you here again!!


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 05:36 PM

HAPPY GAY PRIDE DAY 2003!

And here's the Village Voice (July 3, 1969) account of how it all started 34 years ago:


View from Outside

Gay Power Comes to Sheridan Square


by Lucian Truscott IV

Sheridan Square this weekend looked like something from a William Burroughs novel as the sudden specter of "gay power" erected its brazen head and spat out a fairy tale the likes of which the area has never seen.

The forces of faggotry, spurred by a Friday night raid on one of the city's largest, most popular and longest lived gay bars, the Stonewall Inn, rallied Saturday night in an unprecedented protest against the raid and continued Sunday night to assert presence, possibility, and pride until the early hours of Monday morning. "I'm a faggot, and I'm proud of it!" "Gay Power!" "I like boys!" — these and many other slogans were heard all three nights as the show of force by the city's finery met the force of the city's finest. The result was a kind of liberation, as the gay brigade emerged from the bars, back rooms, and bedrooms of the village and became street people.

                                       * * *

Cops entered the Stonewall for the second time in a week just before midnight on Friday. It began as a small raid — only two patrolmen, two detectives, and two policewomen were involved. But as the patrons trapped inside were released one by one, a crowd started to gather on the street. It was initially a festive gathering, composed mostly of Stonewall boys who were waiting around for friends still inside or to see what was going to happen. Cheers would go up as favorites would emerge from the door, strike a pose, and swish by the detective with a "Hello there, fella." The stars were in their element. Wrists were limp, hair was primped, and reactions to the applause were classic. "I gave them the gay power bit, and they loved it, girls." "Have you seen Maxine? Where is my wife — I told her not to go far."

Suddenly the paddywagon arrived and the mood of the crowd changed. Three of the more blatant queens — in full drag — were loaded inside, along with the bartender and doorman, to a chorus of catcalls and boos from the crowd. A cry went up to push the paddywagon over, but it drove away before anything could happen. With its exit, the action waned momentarily. The next person to come out was a dyke, and she put up a struggle — from car to door to car again. It was at that moment that the scene became explosive. Limp wrists were forgotten. Beer cans and bottles were heaved at the windows, and a rain of coins descended on the cops. At the height of the action, a bearded figure was plucked from the crowd and dragged inside. It was Dave Van Ronk, who had come from the Lion's Head to see what was going on. He was later charged with having thrown an object at the police.

Three cops were necessary to get Van Ronk away from the crowd and into the Stonewall. The exit left no cops on the street, and almost by signal the crowd erupted into cobblestone and bottle heaving. The reaction was solid, they were "pissed." The trashcan I was standing on was nearly yanked out from under me as a kid tried to grab it for use in the windowsmashing melee. From nowhere came an uprooted parking meter — used as a battering ram on the Stonewall door. I heard several cries of "Let's get some gas," but the blaze of flame which soon appeared in the window of the Stonewall was still a shock. As the wood barrier behind the glass was beaten open, the cops inside turned a firehose on the crowd. Several kids took the opportunity to cavort in the spray, and their momentary glee served to stave off what was rapidly becoming a full-scale attack. By the time the fags were able to regroup forces and come up with another assault, several carloads of police reinforcements had arrived, and inminutes the streets were clear.

A visit to the Sixth Precinct revealed the fact that 13 persons had been arrested on charges which ranged from Van Ronk's felonious assault of a police officer to the owners' illegal sale and storage of alcoholic beverages without a license. Two police officers had been injured in the battle with the crowd. By the time the last cop was off the street Saturday morning, a sign was going up announcing that the Stonewall would reopen that night. It did.

                                       * * *

Protest set the tone for "gay power" activities on Saturday. The afternoon was spent boarding up the windows of the Stonewall and chalking them with signs of the new revolution. "We are Open," "There is all college boys and girls in here," "Support Gay Power — C'mon in, girls," "Insp. Smyth looted our: money, jukebox, cigarette mach, telephones, safe, cash register, and the boys tips." Among the slogans were two carefully clipped and bordered copies of the Daily News story about the previous night's events, which was anything but kind to the gay cause.

The real action Saturday was that night in the street. Friday night's crowd had returned and was being led in "gay power" cheers by a group of gay cheerleaders. "We are the Stonewall girls/ We wear our hair in curls/ We have no underwear/ We show our pubic hairs!" The crowd was gathered across the street from the Stonewall and was growing with the additions of onlookers, Eastsiders, and rough street people who saw a chance for a little action. Those dress had changed from Friday night's gayery to Saturday night street clothes, the scene was a command performance for queens. If Friday night had been pick-up night, Saturday was date night! Hand-holding, kissing, and posing accented each of the cheers with homosexual liberation that had appeared only fleetingly on the street before. One-liners were as practiced as if they had been used for years. "I just want you all to know," quipped a platinum blond with obvious glee, "that sometimes being homosexual is a big pain in the ass." Another allowed as how he had become a "left-deviationist." And on and on.

The quasi-political tone of the street scene was looked upon with disdain by some, for radio news announcements about the previous night's "gay power" chaos had brought half of Fire Island's Cherry Grove running back to home base to see what they had left behind. The generation gap existed even here. Older boys had strained looks on their faces and talked in concerned whispers as they watched the up-and-coming generation take being gay and flaunt it before the masses.

As the "gay power" chants on the street rose in frequency and volume, the crowd grew restless. The front of the Stonewall was losing its attraction, despite efforts by the owners to talk the crowd back into the club. "C'mon in and see what da pigs done to us," they growled. "We're honest businessmen here. We're American-born boys. We run a legitimate joint here. There ain't nuttin bein' done wrong in dis place. Everybody come and see."

The people on the street were not to be coerced. "Let's go down the street and see what's happening girls," someone yelled.



And down the street went the crowd, smack into the Tactical Patrol Force, who had been called earlier to disperse the crowd and were walking west on Christopher from Sixth Avenue. Formed in a line, the TPF swept the crowd back to the corner of Waverly Place, where they stopped. A stagnant situation there brought on some gay tomfoolery in the form of a chorus line facing the line of helmeted and club-carrying cops. Just as the line got into a full kick routine, the TPF advanced again and cleared the crowd of screaming gay powerites down Christopher to Seventh Avenue. The street and park were then held from both ends, and no one was allowed to enter — naturally causing a fall-off in normal Saturday night business, even at the straight Lion's Head and 55. The TPF positions in and around the square were held with only minor incident — one busted head and a number of scattered arrests — while the cops amused themselves by arbitrarily breaking up small groups of people up and down the avenue. The crowd finally dispersed around 3:30 a.m. The TPF had come and they had conquered, but Sunday was already there, and it was to be another story.

                                       * * *

Sunday night was a time for watching and rapping. Gone were the "gay power" chants of Saturday, but not the new and open brand of exhibitionism. Steps, curbs, and the park provided props for what amounted to the Sunday fag follies as returning stars from the previous night's performances stopped by to close the show for the weekend.

It was slow going. Around 1 a.m. a non-helmeted version of the TPF arrived and made a controlled and very cool sweep of the area, getting everyone moving and out of the park. That put a damper on posing and primping, and as the last buses were leaving Jerseyward, the crowd grew thin. Allen Ginsberg and Taylor Mead walked by to see what was happening and were filled in on the previous evenings' activities by some of the gay activists. "Gay power! Isn't that great!" Allen said. "We're one of the largest minorities in the country — 10 percent, you know. It's about time we did something to assert ourselves."

Ginsberg expressed a desire to visit the Stonewall — "You know, I've never been in there" — and ambled on down the street, flashing peace signs and helloing the TPF. It was a relief and a kind of joy to see him on the street. He lent an extra umbrella of serenity to the scene with his laughter and quiet commentary on consciousness, "gay power" as a new movement, and the various implications of what had happened. I followed him into the Stonewall, where rock music blared from speakers all around a room that might have come right from a Hollywood set of a gay bar. He was immediately bouncing and dancing wherever he moved.

He left, and I walked east with him. Along they way he described how things used to be. "You know, the guys there were so beautiful — they've lost that wounded look that fags all had 10 years ago." It was the first time I had heard that crowd described as beautiful.

We reached Cooper Square, and as Ginsberg turned to head toward home, he waved and yelled, "Defend the fairies!" and bounced on across the square. He enjoyed the prospect of "gay power" and is probably working on a manifesto for the movement right now. Watch out. The liberation is under way.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Marion
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:21 PM

No need to take up a collection, the article axman mentioned is in this post. And the rest of the thread discusses it, more or less.

S&R, there's a weekly gay square dance in my town, but I've never been to it so I don't know how the calling is done. Maybe "righties" and "lefties" would work? (Or since somebody's gotta say it... "pitchers" and "catchers"?)

Marion


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: axman664
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:51 PM

NY Times had a very interesting article concerning this issue, entitled "Queer as Folk", back in August of 2002:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20814FC3B5E0C7B8DDDA10894DA404482

Unfortunately, you will need to pay $2.95 to read beyond the second paragraph. Sheez. Maybe we Mudcatters can take up a collection to view it, because it is a good read...although Dar Williams took offense to it, because it suggested that she was remaining mysterious about her orientation so as to consolidate a solid fan base that would include many lesbians (she has since married a man).

I also seem to remember it mentioning that folk music is the unofficial genre-of-choice for lesbians, and disco the genre-of-choice for gay men.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:58 AM

Maine? Now that's something to think about. Does Kirstie Alley still live there? She's kind of cute, in her own weird way. The only trouble is I'm already out of New Jersey and living in western New York State.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: s&r
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:29 AM

A couple of years ago we played for a ceilidh where the audience /dancers were almost all same sex couples. Our caller was blissfully ignorant of this, and went around the groups of dancers during the "practice" re-arranging the couples to be m/f, to their seething and embarrassed resentment. By the third dance the floor was empty....

Does anyone have an alternative to "ladies forward, gentlemen back" type of instruction?

Re the differing attitudes between male and female homosexuality I was told that it was A. because male homosexuality and spilling of seed etc was forbidden in the Bible, and B. because Queen Victoria would never have believed Lesbians existed, so the laws forbidding homosexual behaviour applied only to men (in Britain it was an imprisonable offence )


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:16 PM

You know...



Mentioning MINK......I was told of a study regarding overpopulated, populations....the species of mink examined turned to homosesuality....under crowded conditions.



As small as New Jersey is....Janice have you considered moving to Maine?



Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:31 PM

Ever sang this song?


Like them or not, Peter, Paul, and Mary have.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:02 PM

Thanks, Janice! I love Romonovsky & Philips. Good to see they are getting the award.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 13 May 03 - 08:31 PM

FYI, even if it's not all folk:

2003 OUTMUSIC AWARDS TO BE PRESENTED JUNE 1ST AT NYC'S KNITTING FACTORY

On Sunday, June 1st, winners of the 2003 OUTMUSIC AWARDS (OMAs) will be announced at the Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard Sreet, New York City, at 1:30 PM. The event will be co-hosted by women's music legend Alix Dobkin and singer/songwriter Jamie Anderson, and will honor gay music pioneers Ron Romanovsky and Paul Phillips with the OUTMUSIC Heritage Award. The 2003 Outstanding Support OMA will be presented to music journalist Gregg Shapiro, and Special Recognition Awards will honor Amazon Country - the first and longest-running US lesbian radio program - and LGBT hip-hop activist Judge "Dutchboy" Muscat. Live performances by selected nominees will be featured.

The 2003 OMAs are open to the public. $35. general admission tickets are now available on a first-come first-served basis at http://www.outmusic.com


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 11:12 PM

Dave Vank Ronk's sexuality is irrelevant. What is important is that he stood with those resisting police oppression, even if his only revolutionary act was to throw a handful of coins at the cops.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:02 PM

" Gays tend to be treated with open contempt."

....well, some places, perhaps. There is one fine musician I know (and some of you do too) who came to events for years around our group, with only occasional musings as to why he never seemed to have female companions....then one year he arrived with his male companion...There were brief murmurings as it sunk in-- then it was off to the music, no questions asked. They have stopped by several times now, and it is just a minor point of interest to everyone.

That's the way it should be,,,


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 07:52 PM

You're welcome, Joe. I should have looked a bit further, but I was in a hurry. You can read part of an eyewitness account by Village Voice reporter, Howard Smith, by clicking here and using the find function or scrolling about half way down. He does write about van Ronk and the coins, etc.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 06:57 PM

Thank you for the link, katlaughing. It is not very clearly written, but it *seems* to call Van Ronk "the gay". But that might well be a typo for "the guy". In any case, it makes it clear that he was an active participant in that he threw some coins at the cops.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 09:44 PM

According to this article, van Ronk was beat up by the cops as they arrested him. (Don't be put off by the astrology heading, the article is about Stonewall and if you use the Find function, the bit about van Ronk is about half way down.) please click here


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:46 PM

My understanding is that Dave Van Ronk just happened to be passing by on an occasion when cops were beating people up. All honor to him, and personally I found him easy to look at as well as listen to, but FWIW he was probably straight.

I would be pleased, however, to see an authoritative account of the incident Janice mentions.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 05:03 PM

Nother point of view. WyoWoman said a lot of what I was going to say about treatment of G/L in general.

But getting back to the original question: I've lived all over this country. Whatever kind of individual you might be, the more wide-open the spaces in which you live, the more likely your traits are well known. That's true for all traits, but I'll restrict it here to sexual orientation. That means that in the wide open spaces of the mid west, if you attend a folk music festival, lots of people will know about it and associate you with folk music. If you are G/L, more people generally know that in these parts of the country, too. (Kat has made that case better than I about Wyoming)

Now take the second part of this situation. I believe it would be much, much more accurate to say that Lesbians are more TOLERATED than accepted at any folk gathering. That simple change of words speaks volumes in terms of treatment of individuals. For one, means that Lesbians tend to be left alone, while Gays tend to be treated with open contempt.

Put these two situations together, (open spaces and tolerated) and it might have a lot to do with the original question.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 03:21 PM

Rick Lalibert and Andy Buck, known as Rick & Andy, are two gay men who are very well known around the NY-NJ folk scene. They don't hide who they are, but their performances are not necessarily gay oriented, unless they are appearing at a gay oriented venue. Then they let it all hang out, musically that is. Otherwise, they are just two guys who sing wonderful harmonies. Their "Wild Mountain Thyme" is among the finest I have ever heard, and I have heard quite a lot!


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: RichM
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:29 PM

Tolerance---->acceptance---->caring It's been a slow progession for humanity in letting go of ancient prejudices. Homosexuality is slowly entering the first stage. Sadly, it's much worse in other societies: In Egypt, some 50 men were arrested during the past year and tried for being at a gay party. In an interview last night with the head of Egypt's human rights organization, he said frankly that there was nothing his organization could do to protest this, or to help the men. He said that to show support would be to invite the destruction of human rights activity in that country!
The saddest part was that he said there were only 30 to 50 such activists in Egypt!


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:00 PM

thank you thank you all: I lent my copy to someone years ago and never got it back; had a request in on zshops and got nada. I am so glad for the reissues; last time I check w/ Dick Testimony was unavailable.

OK Dick, I'll be calling to add this to my order. You do still have my last order, yes?

MAG


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 09:02 AM

Ferron's "Testimony" LP is currently up for auction on Ebay. Item no. 1513494525. The bidding closes 2/18/02.


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:55 AM

MAG, do you want a copy of just the song or of the whole tape by the same name? You can get it on a new 2 CD set, with a bunch of her other stuff, that she was finally able to buy back and get control of, at Ladyslipper Music. If you ask Max or Dick for that specific set, I'll bet they could get it, though, and Mudcat would get a cut.

If you want just the song, with lyrics, let me know and I could send you a file.

kat


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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:26 AM

No word from Ferron Fan #1 perhaps they died from An Early Frost

No Loss.....the bell didn't toll.


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