mudcat.org: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


Will you write an Email for Shambles?

Related threads:
How old is Brit trad of music in pubs? (88)
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs (506) (closed)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (69)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs (77)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Council Bans Morris Dancing (103)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


The Shambles 18 Aug 01 - 04:22 AM
Mudcatter 18 Aug 01 - 04:49 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 18 Aug 01 - 05:47 AM
The Shambles 18 Aug 01 - 05:55 AM
The Shambles 18 Aug 01 - 06:01 AM
Roger in Sheffield 18 Aug 01 - 06:19 AM
The Shambles 18 Aug 01 - 06:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Aug 01 - 10:44 AM
Liz the Squeak 18 Aug 01 - 04:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 08:55 AM
Roger in Sheffield 19 Aug 01 - 10:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Mudcatter 19 Aug 01 - 12:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 12:39 PM
Mudcatter 19 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM
The Shambles 19 Aug 01 - 01:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 01:29 PM
wysiwyg 19 Aug 01 - 01:34 PM
The Shambles 19 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM
Roger in Sheffield 19 Aug 01 - 01:46 PM
IvanB 19 Aug 01 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 02:34 PM
Mudcatter 19 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM
Terry K 19 Aug 01 - 03:07 PM
Roger in Sheffield 19 Aug 01 - 03:47 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Aug 01 - 04:03 PM
Roger in Sheffield 19 Aug 01 - 04:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 04:37 PM
Barry Finn 19 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM
Micca 19 Aug 01 - 06:25 PM
catspaw49 19 Aug 01 - 06:55 PM
Gareth 19 Aug 01 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 01 - 07:45 PM
Roger in Sheffield 20 Aug 01 - 01:08 PM
Roger in Sheffield 20 Aug 01 - 01:12 PM
The Shambles 20 Aug 01 - 01:56 PM
Roger in Sheffield 20 Aug 01 - 02:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM
Jacob B 20 Aug 01 - 05:26 PM
running.hare 20 Aug 01 - 05:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 06:11 PM
The Shambles 20 Aug 01 - 06:16 PM
Linda Kelly 20 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 20 Aug 01 - 07:33 PM
Gareth 20 Aug 01 - 07:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 07:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 08:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM
Gareth 21 Aug 01 - 02:21 PM
Roger in Sheffield 21 Aug 01 - 03:20 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:










Subject: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 04:22 AM

After eight months of trying, I am (supposed) to be meeting with the Chief Executive of my local council this Thursday 23/08/01.

I have been unable to gain much support locally and I am speaking to him from a position of weakness.... I am just an individual with a complicated issue that makes it difficult to gain support from anyone else but people that love traditional music and freedom of expression.

I know that Mudcatters, all around the world are such people. Can I ask for your urgent help?

The details of the issue and where to write can be found here Council Bans Morris 2.

Please do what you can? Thank you very much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Mudcatter
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 04:49 AM

Shambles,

Your problem is spread other 3 long threads here, and I've found it quite hard to follow what exactly is going on.

If you could provide a short précis of the issues and what exactly you'd like us to say / argue in an email, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks, and good luck for next week


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 05:47 AM

Shambles-I have sent you a PM about this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 05:55 AM

There are some words of general principle that can be used in the 2nd post of the thread linked to above but..

This is the background. When the current licensees took over the Cove, my wife and I performed there as conventional paid public entertainment. As a result the Friday night became a regular night for this. As long as the two-performer aspect was kept to, a Public Entertainment Licence was not required as the Section 182 exemption (the so-called two-in a bar rule) applied.

Another pub has held a regular sing-around for about 5 years now, without a Public Entertainment Licence. This is not a conventional public entertainment. The musicians are unpaid customers just making traditional song for their own entertainment, with the permission of the licensee. The licensee of The Cove had visited this sing-around with me and would have liked to have a similar thing in their pub but did not want to take away any custom from this establishment.

This session became busy and there was a conflict between songs and tunes. We thought that a session on another night of the week, for tunes only would solve a number of problems. We needed to advertise that it was for tunes only. In our naivety we did not dream that the licensing authority would class customers providing their own traditional music, as performers for the sole purpose of preventing it.

I advertised for participants for the first night 07/12/200, in our local paper, the licensing manager saw this, wrongly assumed that the licensee had place it and was staging a public entertainment. The premises were visited the next day 08/12/00 and the licensee was threatened, even though at this point, the event had not been witnessed to ascertain how many musicians were involved. When it was witnessed they saw what they wanted to see, a public entertainment with more than two performers. They did not bother to speak to any of the musicians. A letter was issued warning that the licensee faced a possible £20,000 fine or a six month prison sentence if it continued.

When I heard of this action I contacted the licensing dept and explained. It would be fair to say that they did not really consider it to be any of my business but a matter only between them and the licensee. Despite the council's other obligations, all they appeared to be concerned about was that it was unfair on the pubs that had PELs. The original event has not received any attention from our officials and continues.

Events of this nature usually stop at this point, the licensee being unwilling to pay for the cost of a PEL. In this case however the licensee did apply on 01/02/01 The PEL was eventually granted on 16/05/01 but with conditions that were not decided by councillors, in the public hearing scheduled for this on 09/05/01. This hearing being cancelled at the very last moment, by the officers, and the conditions applied in private. These conditions preventing any outside entertainment from taking place except once every August. I have established that this includes Morris dancing on land belonging to the premises. Far from enabling it the PEL has resulted in this traditional activity at the pub being prevented.

I did not feel that the elected members and the public would be happy with this and requested that the policy and the future of traditional music locally, be decided by a meeting of the elected members. Eventually on 05/06/01 a meeting of the Social and Community Committee were recommended to "confirm that steps taken by Licensing Officers to encourage an application from the proprietor of The Cove House Inn., Portland for a licence permitting public entertainment on the premises were appropriate and justified"

.

The officers presented 'advice' for this meeting, that really gave the members no other choice but to confirm this. They state: "By applying the relevant licensing legislation the council has imposed conditions and restrictions on Mr Gall's rights (of freedom of expression), that are legal, necessary and proportionate in the interests of public safety, control of nuisance and the prevention of crime and disorder

.

They admit that no public complaint was ever received about the session and no additional safety, noise, or crime measures were required to enable the granting of the PEL. In other words everyone was just as safe before this action as they now are with a PEL and there were clearly never any grounds for preventing for six months, my right of freedom of expression contained in Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 06:01 AM

More details of this, links to previous Mudcat threads on the subject and of the wider issue can be found on Trevor Gilson's site HERE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 06:19 AM

Thanks Shambles I was looking through the Morris thread wondering what I should write in support and where to
When I write complaint letters though I like them to be short and to the point, otherwise the reader might get bored and bin my letter before understanding the point
I think McGrath made the point in the other thread that for many of us any place that is not session friendly is off the tourist map
So where do I write to...?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 06:51 AM

The Director of Tourism, Council Offices, North Quay, Weymouth, Dorset DT4 8TA.

ianlocke@wpbc.weymouth.gov.uk

A copy to the Chief Executive
tomgrainger@wpbc.weymouth.gov.uk and the local paper letters@dorsetecho.co.uk may help too.

Thanks to you all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:44 AM

I've PM'd you a draft of an email I've written, Roger, but not sent off to Weymouth yet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 04:26 PM

I remember Ian Locke - he always was a bit of a twit, but get him on your side and he's pretty good.

You have my support Shambles, maybe next time I'm down that way, I'll pop in....

LTS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 08:55 AM

So drop a line to him now Liz, and put the fear of God in him.

A lot of people have dropped in on these threads ove rthe past couple of months - I'm hoping that some of them will respond to Shambles' invitation here and lobby. This business of defending/recovering our right to sing and play matters, and there is actually something to be done here.

The trouble is, the authorities don't think there are enough people around who care about this kind of thing. Maybe they are right, even here on the Mudcat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 10:10 AM

I am a bit slow sometimes...... our university students ceilidh society should be interested in this as they hold a pub session
They can be contacted here or if someone can come up with a concise explanation of the problem I could print it off and leave it at the pub for them
Kevin are you trying to say we would rather argue about session etiquette than do something about the demise of the actual sessions? If only half the effort that was expended in the Jug episode were directed at the council it would have them reconsidering fast enough

Roger


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:01 AM

Here's a song I wrote about a related aspect, based on a true incident when I went to a session where there was noone I knew, and no music playing. And later I met someone who had been there, who'd also gone there for the session that never took place.

But the moral is, as they say, if you don't use it, you'll lose it.

The Silent Session

Oh Monday night was a dull old night
so the landlord ups and says
"I know, we're going to have a music night,
like we did in the good old day.
We'll have musicians in the public bar,
in the corner of the crowded room,
and we'll all be ready for a good old show,
and we'll have some good old tunes.


Well there was one musician had a song to sing,
and a pair of healthy lungs
but he sat there smoking of his pipe all night,
and we never had a single song. So that was one musician in the public bar,
in the corner of the crowded room -
but he sat there waiting for the show to start,
and we never had a single tune.


And there was one musician had an old guitar
on the back seat of his car -
but he never went to fetch it,
he just sat and sulked,
a-drinking in the public bar.
So that was two musicians in the public bar,
in the corner of the crowded room -
but they sat there waiting for the show to start,
and we never had a single tune.


And there was one musician had a mandolin
it was lying there in its case,
but it lay there silent underneath his chair,
while the evening was going to waste.
So that was three musicians in the public bar,
in the corner of the crowded room -
but they sat there waiting for the show to start,
and we never had a single tune.


And there was one musician had a fiddle and a bow
and a head so full of tunes
but they all sat there, waiting for the show to start,
like a family of old baboons.
So that was four musicians in the public bar,
in the corner of the crowded room -
but they sat there waiting for the show to start,
and we never had a single tune.


And the landlord said "Time Gentlemen!"
and he sent them on their way.
"That's the very last time we'll have a music night
it seems there's nobody as wants to play.
But we were all musicians in the public bar,
in the corner of the crowded room -
but we sat there waiting for the show to start,
and we never had a single tune.


So now come all musicians in the public bar,
in each corner of the crowded room -
don't you sit there waiting for the show to start,
when you can start it with a good old tune.



Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:02 PM

Kevin,

It's not a case of not wanting to help, but a case of not knowing what to say.

I asked Shambles what I should say to help in an earlier message.

Maybe I'm stupid but I still found the reply difficult to understand.

In 'write in' to give your support campaigns, sample letters are sometimes given, where you can just sign it, and add your own thoughts if you want.

If we were given something similar here, I expect there'd be a better reply.

Mudcatter

who'd like to help but doesn't have the time / legal knowledge to sift through everything here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:39 PM

The legal complications don't really come into it. The law needs changing, but even as it is seems to be only relatively few places where councils see it as their job to try to interfere with people singing and playing music for their own mutual enjoyment, and insist that this counts as something for which a Public Entertainment Licence is required.

So basically you just need to say that this is the sort of thing you like doing, and that, while Weymouth has this policy, you won't be going there for your holidays. And that doesn't matter whether you live in England or the USA or Australia, directors of tourism are there to be interested in that kind of thing.

Indentikit letters such as Mudcatter suggested are in my view a bit of a waste of time. Essentially they are spam, and treated as such. With the right program you could send millions of them, and they know that. Individual letters are much better, and it doesn't take any longer than it does to write a post on the Mudcat,

Anyway, as an example, not a model, here is what I sent them - you could probably write something much more effective by keeping it short and sweet.

For the attention of The Director of Tourism, Council Offices, North Quay, Weymouth, Dorset DT4 8TA (ianlocke@wpbc.weymouth.gov.uk)

I am writing to you in connection with a matter concerning your council's policy and practice in regard to Public Entertainment Licences.

I currently run a website, which among other things tries to carry up to date information about folk music activities in my part of the country, the Essex Herts border.

This includes keeping people advised about local public houses where the licensees are happy to allow musicians to come in and sing or play music together for their own enjoyment - "sessions" as these are called.

These take places in numerous places all over the country, and generally appear to be accepted by local authorities as social activities which do not require any Public Entertainment License, since there is no question of people being paid to entertain - it is just a matter of people preferring to make music together rather than talk about football or the weather.

However it has come to my attention that some local authorities have interpreted the law in a different way, under which if more than two people take part in any such activity ( by which I mean the activity of making music, not the activity of talking about football or the weather) on any public premises, the activity has to be classed as a public entertainment and requires a public entertainment licence.

So I have been thinking of adding to my website, for the benefit of people planning to go on holiday, a checklist of such authorities. I know that I would always myself prefer to holiday in a place where such sessions, and other traditional folk activities such as Morris Dancing, is not subject to this kind of restriction, and I know that this is true of many people. Fortunately there are many places where the local authority sees no problem in accepting such activities.

Such a list would provide a way of avoiding embarrassment for anybody, especially of course people coming from overseas. I have on a number of occasions had enquiries about this kind of thing from acquaintances in other parts of the world who share my interest in folk music, and whom I have come to know through the Internet. Having this information readily available will enable them avoid those places where they would be unable to relax and enjoy themselves in their chosen fashion.

I understand that Weymouth is such an authority which has determined on a restrictive interpretation of the law - in fact there was a recent story in the national press about this. So the purpose of this letter is to check that the facts which have been stated are correct. So it would be helpful if you could let me know if I am by any chance wrong.

Essentially, if a group of people wish to sing or play unamplified music in a public house, for example, for their own social enjoyment, with the consent of the landlord, and with no objection from other customers, would your council insist that they have no right to do this, unless a public entertainment licence has been obtained? And would,the same policy apply in relation to other public places.?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Mudcatter
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM

Kevin,

I have to disagree regarding 'identikit' letters. Done in the traditional written way, they are more useful than a petition... the person concerned has a big pile of correspondence in their in-tray.

Done electronically, I don't know

Sending thousands of people the same email is easy, but sending one person the same email from thousands of different people is harder (I don't know of any software that allows you to do that - please post details)

Anyway, I'll write, concentrating on the fact that I won't go to Weymouth if this is the situation regarding live music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:09 PM

It is complicated I accept but here are a few points of principle........

I refuse to accept that customers of all ages, sex, race or religion making unpaid music together, for the sheer joy of doing so in a public house, where the interests of the public are already assured by existing legislation, can or should be prevented.

 In this activity the public's freedom of expression is guaranteed by Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

 Where the licensee has given permission for their customers to traditionally make music or sing, there is no additional issue of noise, nuisance or public safety, that is not already more than adequately covered by other existing legislation.

 If a public house's maximum capacity is not exceeded, and all of those customers were to sing, would this activity alone make them unsafe? …..It would however make it illegal, according to WPBC policy.

 This policy is that members of the public making music are performers and where there are more than two people singing along, this activity is illegal, without a Public Entertainment Licence.

 Case law has not established that members of the public are performers but WPBC's policy has.

 Further that traditional activities like Morris Dancing, taking place on private or land belonging to a public house, will also be illegal without this licence.

 I strongly request that Weymouth and Portland Council Borough urgently re-examine both the legality and wisdom of this policy also to establish if this policy has been made in the best interests of all the visitors and residents of Weymouth and Portland?

Roger Gall.

If you agree with the above, it may help if you copy some of all of it, add your own comments and send them to The Director of Tourism, Council Offices, North Quay, Weymouth, Dorset DT4 8TA.

ianlocke@wpbc.weymouth.gov.uk

Many thanks......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:29 PM

Identikit mailings on real bits of paper possibly have some impact, though far less than individual letters I am sure.

As email I suspect they have virtually no effect exceopt to annoy.

And it's so simple to write what you want to say in your own words.

No need even to go into the rights and wrongs of it.

"I like to be able to take part in informal folkmusic sessions in pubs when I go on holiday. I have heard that Weymouth Council has a policy that makes it hard to have such sessions. So I won't be going to Weymouth for my holidays until this policy has been changed, though I have heard that otherwise it is a very pleasant place." For example.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:34 PM

Just sent, subject "PEL Question"

Dear Mr. Locke,

Over on this side of the pond, many of us in the Colonies are baffled over current issues over PEL and the informal music-making that has been the UK tradition for centuries.

What is the problem, exactly, that the PEL is meant to address? And what are the interests competing here?

Thanks for your help,

Susan Hinton Mansfield, Pennsylvania USA


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM

Weymouth and Portland Borough Council. You will see that it is indeed a very pleasant place and may be open to any suggestions from prospective tourists as to how it could be made even more pleasant...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:46 PM

Thanks Susan, I get the feeling that when it comes to tourism, one american voice equals ten locals at current exchange rates. I am writing mine now but might have to have it checked for foul language before sending


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: IvanB
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:08 PM

Sent via email to Ian Locke with copies to Tom Grainger and the Echo:

Dear Mr. Locke:

My wife and I will be leaving the U.S. on 31 August to spend two weeks in England. We have budgeted £2,000 for sightseeing costs, above and beyond our housing and car rental costs. One of our favorite activities when traveling is to attend music 'sessions,' especially those emphasizing folk and/or traditional music. As musicians ourselves, we find it very enjoyable to join in the sharing of our music as well as the partaking of that of others.

One disturbing tendency I'm finding is the interpretation of some local government bodies to treat public sessions as an 'entertainment' requiring licensing. Since I find sessions to be one of the means by which traditional music can be maintained and conveyed to succeeding generations, I believe that, despite the fact they may have some entertainment value, sessions are more educational in nature and should be encouraged rather than restricted.

I've recently found that Weymouth is one of those jurisdictions imposing what I see as unreasonable restrictions on musical sessions. Due to that fact, we will, unfortunately, be forced to forego any visit to your area and will instead spend our money in jurisdictions which take a more enlightened attitude to public sessions. Hopefully, your council will see fit to encourage the dissemination of traditional music in the future. Until such time, we will not be visitors to your area.

Yours truly,

Ivan L. Bradley


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:34 PM

Going well!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Mudcatter
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM

Bravo, Ivan B

Just the sort of thing that might make a difference.

One thing that I'd suggest others to do is demand a reply to their complaint.

That way it can't be just swept under the carpet


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 03:07 PM

I just emailed the head of tourism with a copy to Ian Locke via the Council website as linked by Shambles above - it's really easy as they have a contact system with all their job titles and email addys listed. Hope it all works out.

Cheers, Terry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 03:47 PM

Ok so should I send it to all those nice councillors too? and should I wait till tomorrow now as they will have a few to look at Monday morning it seems, a few more Tuesday might be nice don't you think?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:03 PM

Ive sent mine as well, as this is an important issue could somebody refresh it if it goes off the main screen?

Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:34 PM

I couldn't wait... its gone
found a nice quote to send them too
.....Music played a role of marked importance in the life of Thomas Hardy. Hardy was surrounded by a family and a community in which music enhanced everything from church services to social gatherings at the local alehouse.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:37 PM

On a roll. Who goes next?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM

I've sent (PM) you a copy of my e-mail in support. Best of luck, Barry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Micca
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:25 PM

I have used the form letter above and added this para
".. I have reqularly visited the Weymouth Portland area for many years but will cease to do so and advise others to do likewse until this is satisfactorily resolved, that a council should be so intent on discourageing visitors and harmless activities is wrong and reprehensible..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:55 PM

Done.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 07:13 PM

A little bit of technical advise.

For my sins I am involved in political organisation here in South Wales - and while this, quite rightly, outside of the political arena - there are tried and tested ways of maximising pressure on the Councillors (elected) over decisions.

The names and addrsses and where applicable E-Mail addresses of the Local Councillors are included on the Weymouth and Portland Website which "The Shambles" has Clickied earlier in this thread.

Target them by E-Mail or Post - and for GODS sake dont use standard letters, type or manuscript with difference in the wordings.

Invite selected councillors to a meet/sing along etc. so that they can see how orderly and friendly things are.

And make sure that everybody is on thier best behaviour, no singing the "Men behind the wire" etc when the leader of the Conservative Group is present. It will only annoy.

Find a way for the politico's to change without loosing face.

I will stand by my earlier comments that I think this fiasco is a "Jobsworth" trying to justify the worth of thier Jobs.

Bullet points which will always put the fear of God into Councillors and Council officials are 1/. A report to the District Auditor on Waste of Public Money, and 2/. A reprt or complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman on unfair treatment.

(If any catter wants private guidance please PM me.)

Accelerating up the scale your MP will start to take note is he receives 5 or more letters on the subject from voters in his constituency, Again individual letters, not proforma's, and by hand, not photo copies.

Pressure through the Local Chamber of Trade and Licensed Victuallers association, Muscians Union, it effects them as well. Get thier details, the Council and libuaries will have the details.

And again make sure that the "Jobsworths" have a line of retreat. Only an unwise person backs them against a wall.

just a few thoughts but they have worked eslewhere.

I'll do a little research, and post mames and addresses later in the week, but having just got back from Grove I'am knackered.

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 07:45 PM

On a strict interpretation of the law it seems to me that anybody who sings or plays an instrument in a public place, such as a coffee bar or a shop is doing something which requires a Public Entertainment Licence.

The two-in-a-bar exemption just means that, in a pub, up to two people are allowed to "perform" without a PEL being needed. Anywhere else even one person is sufficient to require the licence.

Pretty well the only other exception is church services. So leaving aside carol services in church, carol singers in public places, such as the street or in pubs, are pretty clearly in breach of the law. So are Rugby Players singing Rugby songs, whether in a pub or elsewhere. (All right some might say a bloody good job too - but those might be handy guys to have on our side. I'd love to see council officers trying to stop a bunch of rugger buggers.)

For that matter I would think this would apply to Football Crowds when they sing, since so far as I am aware football grounds would not have this kind of PEL. (After all, this is considered entertaining enough for them to put out records of such singing sometimes.)

Stupid laws survive because sensible people don't bother to enforce them. When stupid people start enforcing them and claim that they are obliged to do so, they should be obliged to do so across the board.

So what plans does Weymouth have to stop Carol Singers? I think they should be asked. Maybe when they reply to those emails and letters explaining how they have to enforce the law, and don't have any discretion on the matter.

Keep those emails going in. When Shambles sees the Chief Executive on Thursday 23rd wouldn't it be nice if the man had been snowed under by polite but emphatic messages from all over the planet?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 01:08 PM

Mine bounced back !
at least it gave me time to tidy it up before sending again, and now they will have something to read tuesday morning


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 01:12 PM

Is it worth trying to get something on the radio 2 message board?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 01:56 PM

I have e mailed mike.harding@bbc.co.uk about the issue, asking if they could feature it on the show. I have not received a reply.

A few more requests may not hurt?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:13 PM

I am not sure the BBC would allow him to Shambles but the message board may be a different a matter?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM

I've just sent an email to Mike Harding giving him a link to all the stuff we've had about this here, which might waken his curiosity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Jacob B
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:26 PM

I just sent the following:

To: ianlocke@wpbc.weymouth.gov.uk, tomgrainger@wpbc.weymouth.gov.uk, letters@dorsetecho.co.uk From: Jacob Bloom Subject: Music sessions and morris dancing Date: Mon 5:25p Aug 20, 2001

I have recently learned that public houses in the Weymouth and Portland area are being discouraged from holding music sessions and from having Morris dancing. My understanding is that the discouragement takes the form of requiring the public house to get an entertainment license for an open music session, as if the singing patrons were employees of the public house.

On my last trip to England, Morris performances and music sessions were the most enjoyable parts of my visit. I look forward to bringing my family for a visit, but I certainly would want to avoid any parts of the country where these things were not available.

Can you tell me if there is any chance these policies will be reversed soon?

Jacob Bloom Arlington MA, U.S.A. bloom@gis.net


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: running.hare
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:48 PM

The followin is saved in my drafts box, as I wanted to check it with you guy's before sendding it. + I have a few spesific Questions. --------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sir, As a young person, with an Interest in Folk music I am sure you will understand that I am concerned with ensuring its future. The very nature of Folk music means it must be played / sung in order to survive, and the most effective traditional way for this to occur is groups of people to get together to share the music they love. It has come to my attention however that Weymouth and Portland District Council consider this to be unlawful if a PEL is not held. Having lived my entire life in Dorset I am dismayed to discover that yet anther part of our rural life is under threat because members of the public, singing for their own enjoyment, with no money passing hands, are considered by this council to be 'performers'. ".....Music played a role of marked importance in the life of Thomas Hardy. Hardy was surrounded by a family and a community in which music enhanced everything from church services to social gatherings at the local alehouse..... " Will such music denied to me and future generations? Will I be silenced if I sing while relaxing on the beach in weymouth, or climbing in Portland?

I truly hope you reconsider this matter seeing that it is a matter of freedom of expression rather than entertainment. I look forward to your reply,

Yours sincerely, _________________________________________________________

1) should I include my postal address?

2) Roger in Sheffield where is the quote from? I like to sourse Quotes I use.

3) Shambles has the been anything in the local or national press that I could have seen, & therefore refer to, but which in reality I missed.

4) General opinions whould be verry welcome.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:11 PM

Here is an article from the Guardian -"Councils make song and dance over pub law"

I liked that - would do for a letter to the editor or an MP as well as for sending to the council. Send it to all of them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:16 PM

Your full address will enable a snail mail reply and will be more difficult to ignore.

The Guardian had a story on the Cove on 28th July. It can be read on Trevor Gilson's website HERE.

General comments: Bloody Good! Thanks.

A letter to the editor of The Echo for publication on the letters page will be good too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM

Sent one in similar vein.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:33 PM

I sent one similar to the other 'merican ones.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:49 PM

Hit the Councillors.

Snail mail and Email Addresses to be found on the Weymouth and Portland DC website The Shambles posted earlier.

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:58 PM

the Weymouth and Portland DC website The Shambles posted earlier.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:01 PM

And I've just noticed that that have a Chat Room on the site...maybe we should adjourn there soon. It's a bit later tonight for people in the UK.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM

Or maybe better still, the WeyBoard they have there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:21 PM

The McGrath of Harlow

VMT for the clicky.

Interestingly the Weyboard has nothing on this discussion.

Perhaps it should !

Hint Hint, Nudge Nudge, Know what I mean !!

I'll lay odds the council IT and legal departments moinitor it, for libel if nothing else.

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:20 PM

Lizabee I only just had another look at this thread
The quote is here http://www.gettysburg.edu/academics/english/hardy/contexts/folkmusic/music.html
......but I am afraid I already used it so perhaps you could mention THs pub musicianship without using the same quote?
Gareth I think two of the councillors may no longer be in office as I got an error message back from two of the names in the list when I emailed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 28 October 2:05 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.