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Celtic Music

the Akond of Swat 09 Feb 98 - 07:34 PM
Helen 09 Feb 98 - 06:13 PM
the Akond of Swat 09 Feb 98 - 06:12 PM
Anon. 09 Feb 98 - 05:02 PM
Bill D 08 Feb 98 - 06:15 PM
Dan Mulligan 08 Feb 98 - 04:27 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Feb 98 - 06:05 PM
Dan Mulligan 07 Feb 98 - 12:11 AM
Jerry Friedman 06 Feb 98 - 05:30 PM
Wolfgang Hell 06 Feb 98 - 03:33 AM
Bruce O. 05 Feb 98 - 03:48 PM
dsmith1315 05 Feb 98 - 02:21 PM
Bruce O. 05 Feb 98 - 11:38 AM
leprechaun 05 Feb 98 - 02:50 AM
alison 04 Feb 98 - 09:26 PM
alison 04 Feb 98 - 09:19 PM
Dan Mulligan 04 Feb 98 - 08:56 PM
Dan Mulligan 04 Feb 98 - 08:42 PM
Dan Mulligan 04 Feb 98 - 08:20 PM
Bruce O. 04 Feb 98 - 06:06 PM
Bruce O 04 Feb 98 - 05:52 PM
Bruce O. 04 Feb 98 - 04:44 PM
Bruce O. 04 Feb 98 - 04:03 PM
04 Feb 98 - 03:51 PM
Bruce O. 04 Feb 98 - 03:39 PM
04 Feb 98 - 03:32 PM
Bruce O. 04 Feb 98 - 10:53 AM
Jon W. 04 Feb 98 - 10:38 AM
Carol Duffy 04 Feb 98 - 09:10 AM
leprechaun 04 Feb 98 - 01:10 AM
Bruce O. 03 Feb 98 - 10:38 PM
Bruce O. 03 Feb 98 - 08:11 PM
Bruce O. 03 Feb 98 - 07:50 PM
Louis Killen 03 Feb 98 - 05:10 PM
03 Feb 98 - 04:25 PM
David 01 Feb 98 - 05:57 PM
Frank Phillips 01 Feb 98 - 05:50 PM
Bruce O. 01 Feb 98 - 11:37 AM
Tormid 01 Feb 98 - 07:45 AM
Jack Hickman 01 Feb 98 - 12:01 AM
Barry 11 Jan 98 - 09:36 PM
Sandy Cameron 11 Jan 98 - 05:48 PM
Bruce O. 11 Jan 98 - 04:18 PM
Alice 11 Jan 98 - 12:29 PM
Dan Mulligan 11 Jan 98 - 12:15 PM
chet w 05 Jan 98 - 08:43 PM
Jaxon 05 Jan 98 - 11:51 AM
alison 04 Jan 98 - 10:50 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 04 Jan 98 - 10:30 PM
Cathy 02 Jan 98 - 09:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: the Akond of Swat
Date: 09 Feb 98 - 07:34 PM

the Akond sure messed that up! One more try! (Now that the surprise is gone.)

just a couple of relevant follow-ups to the learned analysis above


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Helen
Date: 09 Feb 98 - 06:13 PM

With reference to Dan Mulligan & Bill D's discussion about searching thread titles and the body of the thread:

Another reason for making a separate thread title for each request is that people browsing the current thread titles for an interesting discussion can see the request immediately, and help out with info. I only drop in on a very long discussion like this one every couple of weeks or so, because I am usually interested in the more specific threads on a daily basis, and then I catch up on the deeper ones like this when I have more time.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: the Akond of Swat
Date: 09 Feb 98 - 06:12 PM

just a couple of relevant follow-ups to the above http://mirage.kky.vslib.cz/~bullshit/bullshit.jpg http://panda.bg.univ.gda.pl/~padom/unb.gif


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Subject: Tune Add: STEG KNETTER'D AT THE SNECK BAND
From: Anon.
Date: 09 Feb 98 - 05:02 PM

Early Celtic Song and Music

Ireland and Wales had a brisk trade with the Hawaiians for a long time in the early middle ages, trading their vowels for Hawaian consonants. But, a gigantic underseas cataclysm raised a continent right in the middle of the trade route, and many ships were wrecked on it, and trade came to a dead stop, just in time actually, as supplies were being severely depleted in Wales. There was also some internal friction in the British Isles about whether to ship more p's or q's and this lead to warring factions called p-Celts and q-Celts. Cunneda (Kenneth of Lothian), tired of the fighting and bored with the border ballads around Chevy Chace, came to Wales and after a lot of begatting his heirs got an Arthur who managed to get all the p-Celts onto one island and the q's, except for the Irish tribe called Scots, onto the other.)

Norwegian emigrants to this new continent, calling themselves Hurons, salvaged the cargos of the old shipwrecks, but didn't know what to do with them, until a p-Celt who had failed as a missionary to the q-Celts, St. Patrick, and his crew, came over and told them what they really had. The missionaries thought they had pieces enough to build a rudimentary Gaelic vocabulary for the Hurons, but things kept getting fouled up, because the Hurons couldn't spell Gaelic any better than the Angles and the Saxons. Never-the-less Pat taught them some Celtic songs and the more northern tribes picked these up and distributed them widely in eastern Canada. They were especially popular with the Huron's brothers, the Inuits. But when the Hurons asked St. Patrick a question, he usually didn't know the answer, and just started hand-waving. The Hurons thought this was sign language, and that certainly didn't help matters much. Thus the Gaelic, 'Eire, the place with no snakes', in Huron came out as, 'Erie, the place of the cat'.

How this came about is easily explained. St. Patrick was boasting a bit here, telling them about how he had chased the snakes out of Eire, for the purpose of eliminating the Druid's supply of harp strings. ('The Harp That Once Through Tara's Hall' had played has been without strings ever since.) It had been pretty easy to scare off the snakes, as all Pat really had to do was chase after them with the hex song devised by the distantly related Peredur Long Spear (who, under the nome de plume Percival, later chased after the holy grail) and Gwyllym Shake Spear (bard of Avon), "Ye spotted snakes with double tongue". But the Hurons had catgut strings for their harps and garrotes, and knew that they had to go to Erie to get the cats, and they were stubbornly insistant about that, Saint or no Saint. As related in 'Culwch and Olwen', Eri was father of Greid, and they were dogs, and Hurons had named their sacred place in honor of the father, but the Hurons found the dogs there so delicious, that they had soon eaten all of them and were forced to turn to the cats, who had quickly found this dogless place, for the necessary substitute parts.

The Druids had previously formed large instrumental groups with these snake string harps. (Snake skins were quite deficient in harmonics, and you had to be careful how you plucked them because a hyper viper would just hiss, and woe to you if you tickled and got a madder adder, so it took many instruments with a wide variety of snakes and highly skilled Druid herpetologists to sound decent.)

Snakes made very poor bowstrings, too, and this lead to Eire being overrun by deer, so although the Druids didn't really want to do it, the does were always forgetting their night before or morning after Pill to Purge Melancholy, and the Animal Righters and Right to Lifers left them little alternative but to neuter the stags. The stags weren't too happy about it either, but formed a mutual support group, and with the aid of some sympathetic Italian male sopranos they concocted 'The Lamentable Ballad of the Neutered Stags". A debased traditional version survives as "No balls at all", and this is the first recorded instance of communal composition of a ballad. The Italians had brought instruments with them from Cremona, fidells, that used vibrating strings of catgut which they imported from the Hurons, and these proved very popular with the cats, because of their screeching tone, which reminded them of their mother, and even smelled like her, but proved poor for accompaniment of songs (except those of the cats).

The original tune for our stag song has long been supplanted by a traditional one, much like the case of the Druids' lamentation for their smooching cow, "Druimion Dubh Delis", (Drimandown), beloved mother of the Dub, the Brown Bull of Cuailnge. Drimandown's tune (not the original, Scots Musical Museum #303, or that in MacDonald's collection of 1784 = Corri's Scots Songs, vol II, p. 29 = SMM #179) from a traveling plumber of mixed black Irish and Scottish descent called Oisin son of Finn mac Cumaill (or Plumbium Wame) was used for a second song in commemorating her called "Kisses sweeter than wine". Druimionn Dubh was the three-titted cow that the witch Morigen milked to quench Cuchulain's thirst (as documentated in 'The Tain'). Morigen (Morgan the Wise/ le Fay) was the transexual evil half- sister/brother of Arthur the Briton, (Gormant, son of Eigr/ Ygerna and Ricca. The latter being called Gorlois by Geoffrey of Monmouth) and had gone along to Eire on the chase of Twrch Trwyth.

After Arthur's shaggy dog Cavel had killed Chief Boar Ysgithyrwyn at the Spring of Emain, just a few hundred yards down the hill from Emain Macha (before Fergus burnt it and Tara's Hall was built on the old site) the Britons returned home (Tain and Mabinogion: Culwch and Olwen). The Druid salvage experts took Ysgithyrwyn's parts and found ingenius uses for them. This was celebrated in a song which over the course of time got things a little fouled up and is now called "The sow took the measles and she died in the spring" with even more corrupt versions like "The Red Herring" or "The Wonderful Crocodile". The modern versions of the song leaves out an important verse. Ysgithrwyn's stomach was thought might be good for a football, and attempts were made to inflate it, but the hole for the upper end of the large intestine leaked so badly that they attempted to plug it up with the nearest thing handy, unfortunately, a reed instrument called a recorder, and inadvertently invented that infernal noisemaker, the bagpipe. Dierdre and the Sons of Usnoth took one with them to the Irish in Galloway (the Dal Riada Scots), where it became a great favorite of the Scots for striking terror into the hearts of the Picts, and everyone else in range. (Never as effective as the Druid's marching snake harp bands, if the truth be told.)

But I digress. The stags didn't have a tune for their song, so applied to Taliesein (whose early version of "I was born about thousand years ago" is recorded in 'The Book of Talesein', unfortunately without his tune for it). He came up with both melody and accompaniment for a mass snake harp band, and it was decided to present it at a concert celebrating the conclusion of the great war of the Tain Bo Cuailnge in honor of the victor, Dub, The Brown Bull of Cuailnge, son of Druimion Dubh. This was presented to great applause by all the well satisfied (and non-pregnant) does at the natural amphitheater called the Ring of Giants (obviously before Merlin stole it and ruined the beautiful meadowlands of Stonehenge, by making it the trash dump for all his useless rocks, after they proved not to be the philosophers stone.)

The original tune of our song of the stags still survives, however, under two badly corrupt titles. As usual the English got things all screwed up on it, when they printed the tune in 'The Gentlemans Magazine'. More nearly correct is the title in BL MS Add'l 23971, where it appears as "Staggs knattered, or Snake band". ['Catalog of MS Music in the British Museum', II (Secular Music), p. 201, where the librarians have unaccountably classified it as an English tune.]

X:1
T:STEG KNETTER'D AT THE SNECK BAND
N:from 'The Gentleman's Magazine', p. 288, 1753
M:6/8
K:G
d3BGB|c3A3|BGB dBd|gdc BAG|cec B3|AFA c3|BdB AFD|G3G,3::\
b3dfb|a2Adfa|gfg eag|fed D2^f|ece a3|dBd gdc|BGB AFD|G3G,3:|]


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 98 - 06:15 PM

Dan Mulligan! What is 'snotty' about pointing out the logic of how people think? People, for the most part, think in terms of titles! One CAN search the bodies of the messages for certain word combinations also, but that is not MY first impulse! I have been following this from the beginning, and it happens over and over that a request buried in the middle of a thread gets missed and ignored! ....Besides, the big internet search engines work on completely different algorithms....and can be two weeks or more behind on what they do catalogue..) *re-reading Dick's remarks again...I nothing 'snotty' about it...he merely disagreed with your viewpoint*

(yes...I'm sure you can speak for yourself, Dick...I just got a bit upset at that one!)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 08 Feb 98 - 04:27 PM

Interesting point Dick, but I dont understand why you took such a snotty tone with me.I didn't realize that the search engine only searches the titles of the postings,not the article itself. That really does limit this forum doesn't it? Especially when there are searchers available that can do that.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Feb 98 - 06:05 PM

Dan- If you DON'T start a new thread for each item you're looking for, Someone with the same request six months from now will never find it. That's why we've tried so hard to implement some pretty damn sophisticated search routines on this site.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 07 Feb 98 - 12:11 AM

THE REBEL JESUS-Nice job with that link Wolfgang that is exactly what this link was started for.Why start a new thread for each new request that pops up? If you do that you have to always browse through all the threads to find something that you are interested in. This way works as a bulletin board for people with a common interest.... quite well in fact. You are correct about the tune it is on "The bells of Dublin" > Sung by Jackson Browne, co written by Jackson Browne and Paddy Maloney.< Elvis Costello performed "the St. Stevens Day Murders" on the same album. Mulligan


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 06 Feb 98 - 05:30 PM

Bruce, you never cease to amaze and impress me.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Wolfgang Hell
Date: 06 Feb 98 - 03:33 AM

for dsmith 1315:

Next time, don't bury your question in the middle of a thread, for it might be overlooked this way (I nearly did). Start your own thread and title it, e.g., "Requested: Rebel Jesus".
The song you are looking for is on a CD titled "The Bells of Dublin" not by Clannad, but by the Chieftains. Click here for the lyrics of The Rebel Jesus
Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 05 Feb 98 - 03:48 PM

This thread was started by a man whose last name indicates he is descended from the Q-Celts. With the exception of a few tunes from the Gaelic speaking Scots of the highlands and islands, scatered around in various Scots collections of the 18th century, I have listed above practically all the sources of music of the Q-Celts prior to c 1793. Scholars have turned up a few other early Irish tunes that are commented on in fairly recent journals. Check, for instance, for Prof. David Greer of the Univ. of Durham. A discussion of the subject of early Celtic tunes has just started on the Scots music list Scots-L, and some contributors to this DT forum are also on that list.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: dsmith1315
Date: 05 Feb 98 - 02:21 PM

looking for wds to the song "the rebel jesus" sung on a cd by elvis costello w/the clannards, I think.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 05 Feb 98 - 11:38 AM

Another source I forgot above is Thumoth's '12 Scotch and 12 Irish Airs' and '12 English and 12 Irish Airs', both c 1745. With the addition Thompson's 'The Hibernian Muse' c 1787, and MacDonald's Scots Gaelic collection, 1784, I've sketched out almost all of the known sources purlished collections of Celtic tunes up to c 1793-5.


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Subject: Lyr Add: MO GHILE MEAR
From: leprechaun
Date: 05 Feb 98 - 02:50 AM

I have no idea what the Gaelic words on the top mean, but I pulled this off the Internet somewhere several months ago when I was looking for an English interpretation of Mo Ghile Mear.

Domhnach 28 Eanair, scriobh Conchubar :

cé hiad na focal le
"Mo Ghile Mear" Ní bréag a rá nach feidir liom focal ar bith as
béal Sting a thiscínt nuair a bhí seisean ag seinm leis na Flaithí.

[GE]
Amhrán Seacaibíteach ar ndóigh atá san amhrán seo ina samhlaítear
an t/ir mar bhean ag caoineadh a grá, an Stíobhartach Séarlas Óg.
Seán Clárach Mac Domhnaill a chum é. Tá leagan níos iomláine ar
fáil i Filíocht na nGael, eag. P. Ó Canainn, 1940.
[BE]
This is a Jacobite song in which Ireland is depicted as a woman
lamenting her love, Prince Charles Stuart (Bonnie Prince Charlie) who is
far away. There is a more complete version in Filíocht na nGael, ed. P
Ó Canainn, 1940. Written by Seán Clárach Mac Domhnaill.

[GE]
Seo iad na focail ar an amhrán céanna mar a deir Pádraigín Ní
Uallacháin é ar an gcaiséad A Stór is a Stóirín :

Seal go rabhas im' mhaighdean shéimh
Anois im' bhaintreach chaite thréith
Mo chéile a' treabhadh na dtonn go tréan
De bharr na gcnoc 's in imigéin.

Curfá :
'Sé mo laoch mo ghile mear
'Sé mo Shaesar gile mear
Suan ná séan ní bhfuaireas féin
Ó luadh i gcéin mo ghile mear.

Bímse buan ar buairt gach ló
Ag caoi go crua 's ag tuar na ndeor
Ó scaoileadh uainn an buachaill beo
'S ná ríomhtar tuairisc uaidh mo bhrón.

Curfá

Ní haoibhinn cuach ba shuairc ar neoin
Táid fíorchaoin uaisle ar uathadh sp/oirt
Táid saoithe is suadha i mbuairt 's i mbrón
Ó d'imigh uainn an buachaill beo.

Curfá

[BE]
And for the learners :
Once I was a gentle maiden
Now I'm a feeble worn widow
My spouse boldly ploughing the waves
Over the hills and far away.

Refrain :
He is my hero my Gile Mear
He is my Caesar my Gile Mear
Sleep or happiness I have not
Since my Gile Mear has gone away.

I am in grief each day
Crying lamentable and weeping sore
Since my lively boy was sent away
And sadly no word of him is known.

Refrain

There is no pleasure in the sweetest midday cuckoo
The finest of the nobility have little sport
The poets and scholars are troubled and in sorrow
Since my lively boy has left me.

Refrain

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 5-Jun-02.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: alison
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 09:26 PM

Hi,

Only one problem, there should be a repeat after the first 4 bars, (you'll see it if you traslate the music, but you won't hear it on the midi file.) Must ask Alan how to get around that one.

Slainte

Alison


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Subject: Tune Add: THE BUTTERFLY
From: alison
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 09:19 PM

Hi Carol,

Do a search for "Richard Robinson's tune page" you'll find the music there.

Failing that here is the tune using Alan of Oz's midi2text, it explains how to use it and if you have a program like musicator it is then easy to get written music.

MIDI file: BUTTERF.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: The Butterfly
TimeSig: 9/8 24 4
Key: G
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0000 1 71 039 0478 0 71 039 0002 1 64 042 0238 0 64 042 0002 1 67 046 0478 0 67 046 0002 1 64 049 0238 0 64 049 0002 1 66 045 0478 0 66 045 0002 1 69 027 0238 0 69 027 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 64 039 0238 0 64 039 0002 1 67 050 0478 0 67 050 0002 1 64 048 0238 0 64 048 0002 1 66 043 0238 0 66 043 0002 1 64 045 0238 0 64 045 0002 1 62 039 0238 0 62 039 0002 1 71 059 0478 0 71 059 0002 1 64 031 0238 0 64 031 0002 1 67 046 0478 0 67 046 0002 1 64 037 0238 0 64 037 0002 1 66 046 0478 0 66 046 0002 1 69 038 0238 0 69 038 0002 1 71 045 0478 0 71 045 0002 1 74 051 0238 0 74 051 0002 1 74 053 0478 0 74 053 0002 1 71 031 0238 0 71 031 0002 1 69 038 0238 0 69 038 0002 1 67 034 0238 0 67 034 0002 1 69 043 0238 0 69 043 0002 1 71 035 0478 0 71 035 0002 1 72 028 0238 0 72 028 0002 1 76 041 0478 0 76 041 0011 1 78 001 0210 0 78 001 0021 1 79 043 0718 0 79 043 0002 1 71 023 0478 0 71 023 0002 1 72 052 0238 0 72 052 0002 1 79 043 0478 0 79 043 0002 1 76 037 0238 0 76 037 0002 1 74 032 0238 0 74 032 0002 1 71 049 0238 0 71 049 0002 1 69 048 0238 0 69 048 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 72 047 0238 0 72 047 0002 1 76 045 0478 0 76 045 0002 1 78 045 0238 0 78 045 0002 1 79 016 0478 0 79 016 0002 1 81 027 0238 0 81 027 0002 1 83 041 0478 0 83 041 0002 1 81 044 0238 0 81 044 0002 1 79 045 0478 0 79 045 0002 1 76 046 0238 0 76 046 0002 1 74 044 0229 0 74 044 0002 1 71 034 0247 0 71 034 0002 1 69 044 0238 0 69 044 0002 1 83 055 0238 0 83 055 0002 1 81 044 0238 0 81 044 0002 1 79 045 0238 0 79 045 0002 1 81 059 0238 0 81 059 0002 1 79 049 0238 0 79 049 0002 1 78 040 0238 0 78 040 0002 1 79 048 0238 0 79 048 0002 1 78 047 0238 0 78 047 0002 1 76 055 0238 0 76 055 0002 1 71 046 0478 0 71 046 0002 1 69 047 0238 0 69 047 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 69 024 0238 0 69 024 0002 1 67 029 0478 0 67 029 0002 1 69 028 0238 0 69 028 0002 1 71 052 0718 0 71 052 0002 1 71 051 0238 0 71 051 0002 1 69 054 0238 0 69 054 0002 1 71 049 0238 0 71 049 0002 1 74 035 0238 0 74 035 0002 1 71 038 0238 0 71 038 0002 1 69 041 0238 0 69 041 0002 1 71 054 0478 0 71 054 0002 1 69 047 0238 0 69 047 0002 1 71 055 0478 0 71 055 0002 1 69 050 0238 0 69 050 0002 1 67 040 0478 0 67 040 0002 1 69 045 0238 0 69 045 0002 1 71 037 0478 0 71 037 0002 1 74 032 0238 0 74 032 0002 1 79 051 0478 0 79 051 0020 1 76 010 0210 0 76 010 0012 1 74 034 0238 0 74 034 0002 1 71 024 0238 0 71 024 0002 1 69 044 0238 0 69 044 0002 1 71 054 0478 0 71 054 0002 1 69 044 0238 0 69 044 0002 1 71 047 0478 0 71 047 0002 1 69 038 0238 0 69 038 0002 1 71 047 0478 0 71 047 0002 1 69 049 0238 0 69 049 0002 1 71 053 0478 0 71 053 0002 1 69 042 0238 0 69 042 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 69 052 0238 0 69 052 0002 1 71 055 0478 0 71 055 0002 1 69 046 0238 0 69 046 0002 1 71 054 0478 0 71 054 0002 1 69 042 0238 0 69 042 0002 1 71 055 0478 0 71 055 0002 1 69 050 0238 0 69 050 0002 1 67 032 0478 0 67 032 0002 1 69 041 0238 0 69 041 0002 1 71 042 0478 0 71 042 0002 1 74 041 0238 0 74 041 0002 1 79 054 0478 0 79 054 0002 1 76 050 0238 0 76 050 0002 1 74 037 0238 0 74 037 0002 1 71 048 0238 0 71 048 0002 1 69 034 0238 0 69 034
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the January 15 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:The Butterfly
M:9/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
B2EG2EF2A|B2EG2EFED|B2EG2EF2A|B2dd2BAGA|B2ce2f7/8g25/8|
B2cg2edBA|B2ce2fg2a|b2ag2edBA|bagagfgfe|B2AB2AG2A|
B3BABdBA|B2AB2AG2A|B2dg2edBA|B2AB2AB2A|B2AB2AB2A|
B2AB2AG2A|B2dg2edBA||

Have fun

Slainte

Alison


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 08:56 PM

BRUCE O.----------- I would say something like : "Huh?" But you would probably not get the subltlety of that statement and probably take it as an invitation to go into greater depth on whatever it was that you were talking about.

Mulligan


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 08:42 PM

THE BUTTERFLY------ Great tune Carol.... I am send the URL to a page that has it transcribed in D. http://spider.acns.fsu.edu/dupuy/janetto/Fiddle/jane_butterfly.html

This is a very fun tune to play. Have you seen the movie "the Secret Of Roan Inish?" "The Butterfly" is used as background music in a few scenes in that movie. They play it very loosely with a light and airy feel.

If you have software that converts MIDI to tablature (like Noteworthy composer) I can send you a MIDI file or NWC file of the tune.

Dan Mulligan Mulligan@iserv.net


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 08:20 PM

Mo Ghille Mear..... Not an allegorical name for Ireland it means "My Hero" And is an Irish song about Bonny Prince Charlie of Scotland.

Mulligan


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 06:06 PM

I forgot to add that in the 18th century Irish tunes can be found in several English works, especialy country dance collections. Scots works with Irish tunes are Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Comanion', Maclean's 'Scots Tunes', McGlashan's 'Scots Measures', 'The Scots Musical Museum' Aird's 'A Selection of Scots, English, Irish, and Foreign Airs', Brysson's 'Curious Collection'(mostly ~50 Irish tunes) and the Gows' 'Repository' and 'Strathspey Reels' series. These are besides works that are exclusively Irish tunes.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 05:52 PM

Celtic Music: A brief capsule of early Irish tune records. The world of Irish music is eagerly awaiting publication of a reported 5000 copies of early Irish tunes assembled by the late Prof. Aloys Fleischmann, by Garland Publishing Co. It was originally supposed to have apeared last year, but was not in their new titles catlog when I looked about two weeks ago.

At present the only very early Irish tunes that I know of are in the Wm. Ballat Lute Book MS (c 1580), with some of the same ones in the Fitzwilliam Virginal MS. A few Irish tunes appeared in England in the 17th century, and more in English publications of the early 18th century.

The Neals published in Dublin in 1724 'A collection of the most celebrated Irish tunes'(recently reprinted) and gave some more in a few collections of country dances spread over a few years subsequent.

About 1748 a collection of O'Carrolan's tunes were published (a few had appeared in ballad operas earlier), but all that survives, of what was apparently this, is a few pages. After about 1750 Irish printers issued single sheet songs with music, most of which were English songs, but books began to appear (not all of which are extant) about 1780.

The earliest known MS collection of tunes after those named earlier was one from a harper named O'Neill, 1787, and several tunes from the manuscript are in the Stanford-Petrie collection. I don't know if this manuscript is still extant. It has been said that the earliest manuscripts now known are those of Edw. Bunting. Donal O'Sullivan edited these and published the tunes in Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, c 1927-9.

I have made an index of the titles of tunes in most of the works mentioned above (except I have used Bunting's 3 books rather than O'Sullivan's extended article) through the Stanford-Petrie collection (Petrie died in 1866), and I don't have Petries' 1855 volumes, and have 'theme coded' many so I can recognize the same tune under different titles (and there are a fair number of these). This is far from complete; I only have about 2500 tunes (but some are multiple versions of the same tune).

If anyone can add to or correct my brief account (beyond my poor spelling that is) here please do.

P. S. I almost forgot, there have been articles on Irish Music in Grove's Dictionary by O'Sullivan and the late (great) Breandan Breathnach. [O'Sullivan, usually good, when he made errors made huge ones so they are usually easy to spot. 'The Beggar's Wedding' (ballad opera) is not all Irish tunes, only about 10 out of 54 are. Peter Kennedy copied this error into his 'Folksongs of Britain and Ireland'.)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 04:44 PM

As an example of Grattan-Flood's inventions, note the Uillean pipes. Flood couldn't figure out what 'union' meant in connection with the Irish pipes (union of chanter and regulators, c 1770-80) so decided that Uillean (Gaelic for elbow) was the right word, and now we are regularly told the lie that they are Uillean pipes because they are pumped by the action of the elbow. There were only union pipes pre-Flood.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 04:03 PM

I won't believe any of the above about a 16th century song or author until I see documentary evidence that this wasn't lifted from one of Grattan-Flood's books or articles. Too many books on Irish songs and music c 1900-1950 swallowed his lies and reprinted them without attribution to him.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From:
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 03:51 PM

Roisin Dubh is one of the songs of the Aisling (vision) tradition, part of the Sean-Nós (Old Custom) canon in which Ireland is envisioned as a woman; these songs were partly a method of concealing nationalist sentiment when it was liable to get the singer hanged.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 03:39 PM

"Druimion Donn Delis" (Dear Brown Cow, often confused with Druimion Dubh Delis = traditional Drimandown, dear Black Cow), and "Granuaile" (on a recent thread) are two other songs in which Ireland appears in allegory.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From:
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 03:32 PM

Roisin Dubh is one of the songs of the Aisling (vision) tradition, part of the Sean-Nós (Old Custom) canon in which Ireland is envisioned as a woman; these songs were partly a method of concealing nationalist sentiment when it was liable to get the singer hanged.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 10:53 AM

fsgw.org under swap links has both of those and many more. Henik is a young Swedish fiddler that specializes in Irish music and is pretty knowledgeable about it.


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Subject: Tune Add: THE BUTTERFLY
From: Jon W.
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 10:38 AM

Here's ABC for The Butterfly, copied from Henrik Norbert's ABC Page :

X:1
T:Butterfly, The
R:slip jig
C:Tommy Potts
D:Bothy Band: 1975.
Z:id:hn-slipjig-3
M:9/8
K:Edor
B2E G2E F3|B2E G2E FED|B2E G2E FGA|B2d d2B AFA:|
|:B2d e2f g3|B2d g2e dBA|B2d e2f g2a|b2a g2e dBA:|
|:B3 B2A G2A|B3 BAB dBA|B3 B2A G2A|B2d g2e dBA:|

If you don't know about ABC, take the link above and also this one:The ABC Homepage. You can find software for turning it into sheet music such as ABC2Win and Muse. Also do a search of the forum, we've discussed it pretty thoroughly lately.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Carol Duffy
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 09:10 AM

I am looking for the music to a tune called Butterfly. The only version I have is by Kathryn Devalier played on the Irish harp. I play the flute. Can anyone help me?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: leprechaun
Date: 04 Feb 98 - 01:10 AM

Perhaps more recently composed, but nevertheless allegorical is the song, Four Green Fields, by Tommy Makem. Also, isn't Mo Ghile Mear allegorical? The Irish are masters of allegory, and I bet there are hundreds of Irish songs that fit the bill. I'd be interested in seeing Kimraff's final product.


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Subject: Tune Add: ROISIN DUBH
From: Bruce O.
Date: 03 Feb 98 - 10:38 PM

Take your pick. Can we have some words?


X:1
T:Roisin dub
N:Stanford-Petrie, #1240
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:G lydian
d/e/|ffe/d/|c/A/ d/c/A/G/|AA(B/G/)|AAc/d/|ee/f/ g/e/|\
e/d/ e/c/ A/F/|GG(A/F/)|GGA/G/|FD/E/F/G/|Ad/e/ f/e/|\
dc/A/G/F/|GGA/G/|FD/E/F/G/|Adf/e/|dc/A/G/F/|GG|]



X:2
T:Roisin dub
N:Stanford-Petrie, #1240
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:Em
B/A/G/|E3/2D/ G/D/|E3/2D/E/G/|c3/2c/B/A/|B3/2E/ F/4G/4
A/4B/4|cd/c/ B/A/|Bc/B/ A/G/|A3/2B/ A3/4G/4|A3/2||E/ A/B/|ccd/c/|
BB/A/ G/E/|EE/D/ E/F/|G3/2 B/e/d/|cc/B/ A/^G/|AB/A/ G/E/|\
D3/2D/E/F/|E3/2|]




X:3
T:Roisin Dub (Dark Rosaleen)
M:Roche Collection, I, #65
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:D dorian
(D/E/G/A/B/)|(c2A2) {e/}(fe)|(dc A)(G ED)|(DE) {E/}(FE DC)
|D4 (A/B/c/d/e/)|(fg) {e/}(fe) (d/e/d/c/d/)|\
ed {e/}(f/e/d/c/) (Ac)| (d>e) (f/d/e/)(c/ d/c/A/G/c/)|A4|\
(D/E/F/G/A/B/c/d/e/)|(f>g) {e/}(fe) (d/4e/4d/4c/4d3/4e/4)|\
f>d e>d (d/c/A/G/|A/c/d/c/A/G/) (E>D) (D2|d4) (d/e/G/A/B/)|\
c2A2{e/}(f>e)|(dc A)(G ED)|(DF){f/}(E>D) (3CDE |D4|]

X:4
T:The Little Black Rose (An Roisin Dub) 1st setting
N:O'Neill's Music of Ireland #70
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:Cm
G/2=A/2|(BG)e3/4c/4|(d3/4c/4) (B/G/) (F/D/)|DCC|\
C2(c/d/)|eed/c/|e(d/c/) (B/G/)|c3/2 B/ G/F/|\
G2(c/d/)|e(e/f/) (d/c/)|e(d/c/) (B/G/)|c3/2 B/ G/F/|\
D2(G/=A/)|B c3/d/ e/c/|d3/c/ B/G/ F/D/|C2C|C2|]



X:5
T:The Little Black Rose (An Roisin Dub) 2nd setting
N:O'Neill's Music of Ireland #71
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:Cm
c3/4B/4|GG{A/}G/^F/|GG (5 G/4A/4=B/4c/4d/4|ed{d/}c/=B/|\
c2c/d/|egf3/4d/4|c3/4B/4 G/A/ =B/c/|~dcc3/4d/4|d2||c/d/|\
edg3/4f/4|fdc3/4B/4|GFG/A/|.B2(G/B/)|ced/c/|\
B3/2c/ B3/4G/4|FEC3/4=B,/4|C2|]


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 03 Feb 98 - 08:11 PM

There's a lot on "Roisin Dubh" in A Kuntz' 'The Fiddler's Companion' tune index at the Ceolas site at Stanford celtic.stanford.edu/ceolas. (search on Roisin) They have all and more than Louis Killen gave above. But it looks rather undigested to me. Joyce's correction to Bunting is made in the tune noted for Margaret Roche, but not made on the entries from Bunting. They even get "The Blackbird" tune connected to some "Roisin Dubh's", but don't seem to know that it was the Scots "Bonny Lass of Aberdeen" earlier.

Caution: This site seems to take some information from Grattan-Flood. No wise Irish scholar would touch it, too many outright lies.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 03 Feb 98 - 07:50 PM

We may need some ABC's or theme codes of tunes here to sort things out. Joyce, 'Old Irish Folk Music and Songs', #57 give "Margaret Roche" tune with 1st verse in Gaelic and in English. He says that Bunting (3rd coll'n, 1840) called the tune "Roisin Dubh" (in table of contents, on music page it's "Black Rose Bud".)

Joyce points out "Roisin Dubh" is in a major mode in Stanford-Petrie, and in his own 'Irish Music and Song' in the proper minor mode. I do not have the earlier Joyce book, so I'm stuck. I could do ABC's or theme codes of the two "Roisin Dubh's" in Stanford-Petrie so we could figure out which tune he meant there. Anyone with any ideas? How about 1st lines of songs (English and/or Gaelic)? Titles are such poor identifiers.


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Subject: About Roisin Dubh
From: Louis Killen
Date: 03 Feb 98 - 05:10 PM

In a little book entitled Irish Minstrelsy pulished by the Walter Scott Publishing Co, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, in 1904 (3rd Edition)that belonged to my father there is a translation from the Irish by Thomas Furlong. The note with the song says: This song was composed in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, to celebrate the Irish hero Hugh Ruadh O'Donnel, of Tyrconnell. By Roisin Dubh, supposed to be a beloved female, is meant Ireland. Thomas Furlong - poet and politician. Born at Scarawalsh, County Wexford,1794; died July 25,1827. Was a close friend of O'connell's and an ardent repealer, but is now remembered as translator of ancient Irishj poems.

I hope this helps.

Louis Killen

Lou_Killen@hotmail.com killen@tscnet.com


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From:
Date: 03 Feb 98 - 04:25 PM

May the road rise with you is an Irish blessing all right: Go n-éiridh an bóthair leat.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: David
Date: 01 Feb 98 - 05:57 PM

say, i ahve been looking for some music of a certain type. it can be best described (by me) as atmospheric/beat/irish music. that is to say... what something perhaps modern like ENIGMA would sound like if you discarded the chanting and replaced it with Irish reels set to the beat, and sometimes vocals... sung usually in Gaelic. in particular i am looking for certain artists' names, albums, etc. Slán!


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Frank Phillips
Date: 01 Feb 98 - 05:50 PM

Didn't the late Jimmy Ferguson have a variant of the blessing that said: "May the wind at your back never be your own."

Frank


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Feb 98 - 11:37 AM

There are both major and minor mode tunes entitled "Roisin Dub" in the Stanford-Petrie collection, #1240 and #1241. These were obtained by Petrie no later than 1866.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tormid
Date: 01 Feb 98 - 07:45 AM

Posted to separate thread, "Welsh songs" before I saw this one. Anyhoo, looking for (English trans.) lyrics to "The Maid from the Parish of Penderyn," and "Calon Lan" (Welsh approximate, sorry, for "Pure Heart").


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 01 Feb 98 - 12:01 AM

The tune "Roisin Dubh" which means "Dark Rosaleen" is an allegorical name for Ireland, stemming to the days of the Penal laws when use of the name Ireland was forbidden. Poets employed numerous poetic names, such as Caitlin ni Houlihan, Roisin Dubh and others. Ireland was often depicted in poems as an old woman, as in "Shan Van Voght", the poor old woman.

Roisin Dubh was composed by Sean O'Riada back in the 1950's as the theme music for a movie called "Mise Eire - I am Ireland." I have not seen the movie, but would be interested in doing so, has anyone else any information regarding it?

Jack Hickman


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Barry
Date: 11 Jan 98 - 09:36 PM

Sandy, if you're searching for a song/words start a thread & you'll probably get much better results. Barry


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Sandy Cameron
Date: 11 Jan 98 - 05:48 PM

I heard a Celtic song yeaterday at a memorial service. It was one of the most beatiful I have heard both lyrcically and musically. The only line I can recall is in the chorus and is..."we'll stand tall like all red-coated laddies do". If anyone knows it I would sure love to get the rest of the lyrics and the music. sandy.cameron@ns.sympatico.ca


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Jan 98 - 04:18 PM

If you have questions about Irish tunes, you can post them to the IRTRAD-L server, and if its Scots go to SCOTS-L. Once subscribed to the list, though, you get all messages in your e-mail inbox, and IRTRAD-L can run to 60 per day.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Alice
Date: 11 Jan 98 - 12:29 PM

Dan, I sent email to Kimraff regarding allegorical songs and Roisin Dubh. If you want the music, I can scan and attach it to email. Send me your email address (you can leave a message for me on my Mucat personal page). Alice in Montana


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Subject: Kimraff
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 11 Jan 98 - 12:15 PM

Wow....You never know just what you are going to start with one of theses things do you? Who would have guessed that this thread would include a discusion of the origin of the "Irish Blessing" rounded out with a mention of Tom Lehrer's "Irish Ballad." It sure made for entertaining reading though.... :-)

I would really like to help out Kimraff though if possible... I have thus far found nothing for "Dark Rosaleen." I am not quite sure what you are looking for anyway. Do you have music for it?

Here is a link for the words to the poem "Roisin Dubh."

http://expo.nua.ie/wordsmith/MaighreadMedbh/Hunger/CryEasy/RoisinDubh.html

It is translated in both english and gaelic there.

There is also a version of a tune called "the black rose bud"(Roisin Dubh)On Derek Bell's album "Ancient Music For The Irish Harp." Beautifull tune.

Do you have music for it? I would be interested in it if you do.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: chet w
Date: 05 Jan 98 - 08:43 PM

Check out Tom Lehrer's "The Irish Ballad". Good fun.

Chet W.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jaxon
Date: 05 Jan 98 - 11:51 AM

My favorite last line of The Irish Blessing is "may all that hate you twist their ankles so you know them when they're coming". Jack Murray


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: alison
Date: 04 Jan 98 - 10:50 PM

Hi

Yes some of us do say the Irish Blessing, (my mother in law sent me it as an embroidery to remind me of home.) It's one of those things that tends to get printed on tea towels etc to keep the tourists happy, like recipes for soda or potato bread. We have book loads of this sort of stuff and sayings of "Irish wisdom" (insert own jokes here.....), eg. you can't pluck a frog!

And then there's always the Irish letter.... you know the one that starts... "I'm writing this slowly because I know you can't read very fast....."

Slainte

Alison


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 04 Jan 98 - 10:30 PM

Kim, to search out the allegorical songs you might consider joining the Irish Trad music list, or the Ballad list, at least long enough to see if anyone can help you. I don't have the subscription info but as with all of these e-mail lists you can get the information by doing a Liszt search. I suspect a posting in rec.music.celtic might get you some responses.

You tend to find knowledgable people on the e-mail lists, because they are the only ones who take the subject seriously enough to tolerate the volume of e-mail received.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Cathy
Date: 02 Jan 98 - 09:51 PM

To Tim:

My Grandma is Irish, and she's said the Irish blessing to me many times. Can't help ya on the Patrick Fagan bit.

To Kim:

Wish I could help you on the info you need for your thesis. But I don't know anything about Irish allegorical songs.


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