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Celtic Music

GUEST,Margaret Burgstaller 31 Oct 02 - 02:58 AM
Bruce O. 21 Feb 98 - 12:26 PM
casey 21 Feb 98 - 11:52 AM
Dan Mulligan 20 Feb 98 - 09:06 PM
JJ 20 Feb 98 - 06:48 PM
leprechaun 18 Feb 98 - 12:56 AM
Bruce O. 15 Feb 98 - 01:18 PM
Bruce O. 15 Feb 98 - 11:38 AM
Bruce O. 14 Feb 98 - 04:42 PM
Bill D 14 Feb 98 - 02:23 PM
Bruce O. 14 Feb 98 - 08:53 AM
Dan Mulligan 14 Feb 98 - 12:42 AM
Bruce O. 13 Feb 98 - 09:48 PM
Dan Mulligan 13 Feb 98 - 08:33 PM
Bruce O. 13 Feb 98 - 02:05 PM
Jon W. 13 Feb 98 - 10:18 AM
Frank in the swamps 13 Feb 98 - 06:40 AM
Bruce O. 13 Feb 98 - 12:29 AM
Anon. 13 Feb 98 - 12:14 AM
Bruce O. 12 Feb 98 - 12:54 PM
Bill D 12 Feb 98 - 12:15 PM
Bruce O. 12 Feb 98 - 12:01 PM
Bill D 12 Feb 98 - 11:43 AM
Bruce O. 12 Feb 98 - 11:35 AM
Bruce O. 12 Feb 98 - 11:28 AM
Tinwhistlers Mutha 12 Feb 98 - 11:07 AM
Bill D 11 Feb 98 - 11:48 PM
Tinwhistlers Mutha 11 Feb 98 - 08:48 PM
Bruce O. 11 Feb 98 - 07:11 PM
Bo 11 Feb 98 - 06:49 PM
Bruce O. 11 Feb 98 - 01:50 PM
Bruce O. 11 Feb 98 - 01:01 PM
Jerry Friedman 11 Feb 98 - 12:49 PM
Bruce O. 11 Feb 98 - 12:37 PM
the professor 11 Feb 98 - 12:15 PM
Bruce O. 10 Feb 98 - 04:49 PM
Bruce O. 10 Feb 98 - 04:42 PM
Bruce O. 10 Feb 98 - 04:31 PM
Anon. 10 Feb 98 - 04:22 PM
Bill D 10 Feb 98 - 03:48 PM
Anon. 10 Feb 98 - 03:35 PM
Bill D 10 Feb 98 - 03:17 PM
Bruce O. 10 Feb 98 - 03:16 PM
Bo 10 Feb 98 - 02:25 PM
Bruce O. 10 Feb 98 - 01:47 PM
Bill D 10 Feb 98 - 01:39 PM
Anon. 10 Feb 98 - 11:25 AM
Wolfgang Hell 10 Feb 98 - 09:00 AM
Helen 09 Feb 98 - 10:30 PM
Dan Mulligan 09 Feb 98 - 08:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: GUEST,Margaret Burgstaller
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 02:58 AM

This is a message for Alice in Montana.

I am a soprano and harpist and have been listening to a lovely CD of Mary O'Hara, on which she sings Roisin Dubh and Scent of the Roses.

I wonder if you might have the music for these and also for The Shortcut to the Rosses ?

It is nigh impossible to get these in Australia, so as my blood is Emerald Green, I should be most grateful if you or another friend could help me, or give me an address which I might be able to obtain the music.

Thanks and Best Wishes

Margaret


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Feb 98 - 12:26 PM

It's the songs that are allegorical, not the titles. I've run into a Scots song in in MSS of c 1705-25 which is an allegory about the pretender to the English throne at the time (Bonny Price Charlie's father or grandfather?). Whoever he was, in the songs he is a the "Gaberlunzie man" (beggar man). There is another about the same time where he is 'The Highland Laddie".


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: casey
Date: 21 Feb 98 - 11:52 AM

Let's see if I have this right. Mo Gille Mear is an allegorical song without an allegorical title?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 20 Feb 98 - 09:06 PM

Well.....Ok, I guess. I was saying though that Mo Gille Mear is not an allegorical name for Ireland , and it isn't. It was being compared to " Roisin Dubh," and "Four Green Fields." Not really the same kind of song.The song is an Irish Jacobite song written in honour of Charles Stewart, by Sean Clarach MacDomnail.

Dan Mulligan


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: JJ
Date: 20 Feb 98 - 06:48 PM

Mr Mulligan is not strictly correct in saying that Mo Ghile Mear is not allegorical. Bonny Prince Charlie, the eponymous Swift Hero, was seen as the savior of what could loosely be called Dalriada - the Scots/Irish hegemony.

Mo Ghile Mear is one of a host of songs looking to the hero who will come from overseas and save Ireland (and Scotland) from the invader.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: leprechaun
Date: 18 Feb 98 - 12:56 AM

This thread has been so much fun; we just can't let it fade away.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 15 Feb 98 - 01:18 PM

I have been quite impressed by Craig Cockburn's scholarship (see my post of Feb. 11) on the Scots music list, so clicked onto his hompepage. (He goes right to the heart af any matter and quickly separates facts from speculation and makes sense of it.)

www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig

Lots on Scots Gaelic (much in English) and even midis of Scots Gaelic tunes that will play if you have your sound card set up for internet. Some of his links are very good too.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 15 Feb 98 - 11:38 AM

I found I made another error above, on Feb. 4. Henrik Norbeck plays timber flute, tinwhistle and bodhran, and he sings, but he is not a fiddler. He is very good at identifying others Irish and Swedish tunes of unknown title.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Feb 98 - 04:42 PM

Thanks Bill. I've found I can go from message box here to a file on my computer, and back. It would be nice if I could figure out how to have that file in a 2nd window, so I could directly compare, but I don't know how to do that. But just to be able to look at the file at all will be a big help.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 98 - 02:23 PM

up above I tried to post the address to a spell checker...I just heard that it didn't work..I seem to have entered it in the wrong place in the 'template' I use...here is the correct address for anyone who is interested...http://clever.net/quinion/spell/


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Feb 98 - 08:53 AM

Oops, one of my br's above was missing the r.
Dan, I've diddled around with several instruments but really can't play anything. I used to be able to do about two dozen melodies on a dulcimer and a few on a bowed psaltry.
A few members on this list heard my latest attempt to sing last weekend. They were kind. No catcalls.
To get on list for Irtrad-L
send to: IRTRAD-L SERVER no subject, message:

subscribe IRTRAD-L your e-mail address

You will be subscribed and get all postings to the list via e-mail, and a file telling how to do such things as post your own questions, unsubscribe, get a digest etc. Henrik Norbeck noted above (and he doesn't like his name spelled wrong) is one frequent contributor.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 14 Feb 98 - 12:42 AM

It is interesting that Max is now considering grouping the threads by category now, perhaps this little "civil war" had something to do with that idea. Bruce O.> I have no reason to believe that we have any differing opinions about celtic music, I would enjoy hearing what kind of tunes you enjoy. What do you play? Have you got any real cool old tunes? I really enjoy knowing that I am playing a great tune that was played hundreds of years ago. (trivia question : can you name they oldest known bagpipe setting? I have it.) And how do I use the IRTRAD-L? As far as serial numbers, I am sure that an IP address is attached to each posting and could be traced to the server from which that posting originated.I take credit for my own , "the Professor," and the one Anon. (You weren't Anon. I was Anon.!)which was just a joke. At any rate these guys sure beat their chests alot don't they?*grin* Dan Mulligan (Donal O'Maoligain)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 09:48 PM

Peace, Dan, I guess we have somewhat different notions of what Celtic music is, but I can live with that, that's part of life no matter the subject, as long as one doesn't live in a totalitarian state where you're told what you have to believe.
I found out by copying the thead as HTML that there is what seems obviously to be a serial number attached to each submission to the forum, but I would never ask Dick, Susan, or Max to identify a sender for me, however curious I might be.
Dan, you might be interested in the Irish music list, IRTRAD-L. There you'll find every thing from 18th century Irish (mostly dance and instrumental, but occasionally even a Gaelic song) to modern Celtic and Riverdance/ Lord of the Dance. Several ABC's turn up every week, some of them with no name, asking an identification of the tune. Among the list members are about three who can identify almost anything.
Akond of Swat, I couldn't connect to your URL's. Care to try again?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 08:33 PM

Bruce O.> That was just a joke. I knew it would get your goat. *smile* If you are indeed "Anon." then I still applaud your humor, some very funny stuff. Frank in the swamps> I am indeed "the Professor" and I did not spend hours pouring over encyclopedias.I didn't have to. And I suspect that you are attempting to stir the pot once again. I personally don't care enough about your opinion to engage you. Jon > Point well made.All I ever wanted to do was share the music with others that enjoy it as much as I. Peace to all. Dan Mulligan


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 02:05 PM

Jon. W., I guess it's ok by me. I still don't quite know what Tinwhistlers Mutha was charging me with. I thought I mentioned my interests as an amateur historian of folk and old popular songs and tunes, and I made no claim to be an expert on any aspect of this, but I guess that was on another thread.

For one of the short articles and notes I published in the 'Folk Music Journal' of the EFDSS, I got about 6 reprints. This is the sole compensation I've ever gotten in any form for anything to do with my studies of old songs. No expenses of mine along this line have ever been compensated for in any way (well, maybe I inadvertently walked out from work with a ball point pen in my pocket a few times). I trust that does not make me a professional or expert.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jon W.
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 10:18 AM

Still, there is something to be learned here. Mudcatters had a fairly well established but non-written convention: one song, one thread (except for the fantasy song circles and their like). Dan comes in and tries to change it (using the imperative form, no less). The result is civil war. Can any war really be civil? I would like (if I had the authority) to declare the "late unpleasantness" to be over. Let's get on with the music.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 06:40 AM

Since The Professor has drawn a distinction between the Celts and the celtic languistic groups solely for the purpose of denigrating Bruce (I had no difficulty understanding the disclaimer of "now" expertise), I think it would be helpful to point out the difference between the Celts and the folk music we label "celtic". If you wanna split hairs this fine, go find some music from Ireland in the year 300 a.d. then we'll see what celtic music is all about. Also, since The Professor is the first authority I've read who settled the question of whether or not the Picts were Celts, perhaps he can explain why they were a celtic people who spoke both a pre-celtic language, and Pictish, an unidentified language, possibly a non Indo-European isolate, but not Celtic?

I'd suspect Dan (he took nae brag o his swift nag, that bore him aff sae fleet man)Mulligan of spending hours poring over the encyclopedia trying to outdo Bruce, but for the fact that I don't think he has the head for it. Anyway, I think he bailed out.

It's certainly a loss not having Shula around, she once hoisted me up for an inappropriate remark. I dearly hope that "the ticker that took a lickin" is still a tickin'. In any event, Bruce O. You are an awesome old windbag, keep it coming. I come to the Mudcat because it is a stimulating forum, there are plenty of "fanzines" for those who just wanna coo over their fave way cool bands.

Frank in the swamps.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 12:29 AM

Anon. Doubtlessly you are one of many, but neither you nor they wrote the parody on Celtic music above. I have the return copy of my slightly different version posted to the scots-l list about 3 weeks ago. I am sure Max can discover where every item posted came from, and time and date of submission. One can't really be Anon here or on any lists for which a record is kept.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Anon.
Date: 13 Feb 98 - 12:14 AM

You weren't Anon. I was Anon.!


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 12:54 PM

Thanks Bill D.

Beyond my two errors on Goidelic and Manx, not one seems to have pointed out any others in my contributions above. If you know of any please let me know. If I am misinformed, I am ready reevaluate the information I have in the light of new evidence.

I also admit that there were several untruths in a little parody I added above under the pseudonym of 'Anon.'. The references are all real, but I embellished a few facts beyond that warranted in the references. I also thank those on the Scots-L list that saw a slightly earlier version for not blowing my cover.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 12:15 PM

Bruce...there is a very nice little freeware spell checker on this page it has several languages available and is easy to use...I use it anytime I type more than a few quick lines..it works in almost ANY 'edit box' like this....


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 12:01 PM

I've learned a valuable lesson. Never try to compose somthing in the thread message box. I find it hard to check spelling that way. You can check with your books as references, but not references in other ASCII files on your computer. I do not have too many of these, since it is true as the professor said that there are a lot of self-styled experts on the internet, so I'm pretty chosey about what I use from it, and never anything from anyone I haven't some good reason to believe is reliable.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 11:43 AM

okey dokey....no one wins in a pissing contest....point taken about the thread, tinwhistle--no more from me in that vein. The music is more important than defending some little point.....


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 11:35 AM

Sorry, I goofed. Professor does say B. C. and not A.D., or C. E. for the migrations to Britain.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 11:28 AM

I did not write pages of misinformation about Celtic culture. I have pointed out the two mistakes that I know I made, both regarding languages. I do not believe the history that the professor said came from a Juris G Lidaka. Julius Caesar knew about the Celts and their Druids on the British Isles centuries before the professor says they got there.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tinwhistlers Mutha
Date: 12 Feb 98 - 11:07 AM

Why would they need a searcher for WIN 3.1 at Mudcat? Dan was clearly pointing out that Mudcat could use one of the searchers, not you. Whether the technology exists and is relatively available for that purpose is a fact, not a matter of opinion, and you were clearly wrong about the sophistication of a technology that searches only titles. He stated that he thought that the Mudcat searcher searched the bodies of the articles when he started the thread, and conceeded that starting a new thread was the right thing to do once he knew that. I agree, I have seen some "nice" posts from Dan, in fact they were all nice until you and Bruce started up. This thread started up with this posting, "Use this thread to share links to celtic music (MIDI, files, GIFs, Etc.) Also use this thread to post files that you are looking for." Bruce , however, chose to write pages of misinformation on Celtic culture. THAT was rude. As a Tinwhistle addict it would have been nice to have been able to use this thread the way that it started out.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 11:48 PM

All I meant to claim was that Bruce knows the music and the history thereof...I've known him personally for about 20 years and he was publishing articles on song and tune histories long before I met him... One is not 'wrong' or 'right' on Mulligan-related things...one is merely opinionated..*smile*...and I hope Dan does not condider himself 'driven out'...he has posted a number of nice posts in other threads...

On searchers...boy, if I AM wrong, I'd sure like to find out! I can't find any internal search programs for WIN3.1....I know I can use the 'find' command to locate words in a file I already have loaded, but that has no relation to the problem of finding stuff in Mudcat threads---where Max has already provided some powerful search tools...I think we may not all be talking about the same thing on this one, and it seems that almost everyone hsa agreed that it is 'safest' to post requests to a new thread....


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tinwhistlers Mutha
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 08:48 PM

Jerry-Actually I think that Bill D was claiming that Bruce O is an expert when he stated that Bruce had put in 30 plus years into research.....Bruce O made no attempt to deny it. It would appear that the professor pointed out the errors in his ramblings. My guess is that the Professor is a linguist....perhaps? Bill D- you get points for your humor but you would appear to be wrong about Mulligan,Bruce O. and searchers . Anon- great stuff. Got anything on the origins of the Tinwhistle? Dan M- sorry they drove you out. Maybe we can talk Celtic music in another thread some time. I have seen your postings, you seem to have some good tunes.

T.M. (a Tinwhistle addict)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 07:11 PM

Bo, a calm sane approach on the internet? My God, what a novel idea! It'le never sell.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bo
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 06:49 PM

I dont understand why everyone is so deffensive. Thank you everyone for your help. I agree with everyone who said there are a number of problems with this medium making instant experts. I dont think anyone is in dissagreement there. Its laudable that so many of you are stating your sources and that the thread has continued till we hashed out an answer.

Thank you Bruce, 'Professor' Anon and everyone who cared enough to contribute.

bo


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 01:50 PM

Just what is our professor a professor of? We don't often have professional academics on this list that I know of. I'm simply an amateur historian of folk and other old popular songs and tunes here, with a smattering of other related information picked up almost at random, or as opportunity allows.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 01:01 PM

Refering back to Craig Cockburn's note on the Scots-L list, I did mix up Goidelic with continental Celtic, and put Manx as p-Celt, rather than q-Celt. Jerry, above, has them correctly.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 12:49 PM

Professor, as I read what Bruce wrote, he did not claim to be an expert on Celts. Unfortunately, his disclaimer was a little folk-processed.

Anyway, if I may summarize, your version is the way I learned it (as a non-expert):
P-Celtic = Brythonic = Welsh, Cornish, Breton languages
Q-Celtic = Goidelic = Irish, Manx, Scots Gaelic languages

Thanks for informing me that Gaulish was from a third, Continental branch--which surprised me because I thought at least some of the Brythonic-speaking people (who of course came from the Continent) were Gauls or something very similar.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 12:37 PM

Professor. I unfortunately spelled two words incorectly in my introductory sentence above. It should have read "I'm no expert on Celts." I cited my main sources, with subsequent references, except for the precise language division, summarized (as I understood it) from a note recently on the Scots-L list.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: the professor
Date: 11 Feb 98 - 12:15 PM

Ther problem with these types of forums is that almost anyone can claim to be an expert, and have studied a subject for thirty years. in this forum Bruce O. has mistakenly presented q-celts and p-celts as subgroups of celts. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The terms p- celtic and q-celtic refer to language groups. Insular Celtic is that group of languages centered in the British Isles. It is in turn divided into Goidelic (or _q_-Celtic) and Britannic (or _p_-Celtic). (The terms _q_- and _p_- refer to their respective develop- ments of the Indo-European labiovelar *kw; it became k in Goidelic and p in Britannic.) The Goidelic branch includes Irish, Scots Gaelic, and Manx. . . . The Britannic (or Brythonic) branch of Celtic comprises Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. . . .

Juris G. Lidaka Dept. of English West Virginia State College There were two waves of invasions to the British Isles which gave rise to the P/Q variaties we have today. The first invasion was to Ireland in the 4th century BC, probably from Western France. This variant became Gaelic and spread from Ireland to the Isle of Man and Scotland. The second invasion (P-Celtic) was to southern England and Wales and from there (in 5th century AD) to Brittany. Celtic languages have also spread from Britain. 150 Welsh speakers started a Welsh colony in Patagonia in 1865, and there is also a Scots Gaelic community in Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia. (about 1,000 speakers today). Breton is not classified as continental Celtic because it came to Brittany from Britain. There was a Gaelic speaking community in the Carolinas but this died out in the early 20th century.

Pictish: The Picts were Celts but spoke a mixture of languages. They spoke a pre-Celtic language for ritualistic purposes (source: Prof Derek Thompson - "Why Gaelic matters"), and Pictish at other times. Pictish is mentioned The Cambridge Encyclopedia of language as possibly being Celtic or possibly being a non-Indo-European isolate like Basque. Thompson says "It is clear from the evidence of place names that there was much common ground between [Brythonic] and the Celtic constituent of Pictish". There is some debate as to whether Pictish was non IE or not, as there is so little information available on it. There are three groups of Celtic languages: Continental, Brythonic, and Goidelic. The only known Continental Celtic language was Gaulish, which died out some time during the Roman occupation during the first four centuries AD. The Brythonic (or P-Celtic) languages are Welsh, Breton, and Cornish (in order of prevalence). The Goidelic (or -Celtic) languages are Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic (this is usually the language which is called "Gaelic"), and Manx Gaelic (again in order of prevalence). The Brythonic and Goidelic strains are distinguished primarily by the fact that the former will have "p" and "b" in places in words where the latter will have "c" and "g."

Welsh (Cymraeg) is alive and well, with over 500,000 speakers in modern Wales. It is most prevalent in the northern and western hill country of Wales, where English language and customs have never fully taken root. There may still be Welshmen who are not fluent in English. Breton (Brezhoneg) is the language of Celtic Brittany, where refugees from the Saxons fled during the 500s and 600s AD. Modern Breton has digested many elements of French, but is still essentially Celtic. Most speakers of Breton are elderly, and almost all of these also know French. Thus, the future of the language is in some doubt, although 500,000 still speak it. Cornish (Kernewek) was the language of Cornwall, the enclave of Celtic resistance to the Saxon invasion at the corner of southwestern England. Cornwall fell to Wessex in 856, and the Cornish language virtually died out at the end of the 18th century. At this time, however, there are over a hundred people who are at least semi-fluent in the old Cornish tongue.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 04:49 PM

I would like to know more about northern England and the borders country from the 7th century on. Can anyone recomend a good book that's relatively easy to get?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 04:42 PM

Bo, same for reprint of John Morris's book, 'The Age of Arthur' mentioned above, which I think is good on the Welsh. My Irish history book has lots on the major kings and their rivals mostly in and around Munster, but not much on most of the rest of Ireland, so I will not pass on any recommendation. Anyone else have any favorites here? Anyone know of any history of Brittany? Morris has some for 5th and 6th centuries.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 04:31 PM

Bo, early Irish (called Scots) history in Scotland is in Fitzroy Maclean's 'A Concise History of Scotland', 1970, reprinted 1988, which I think can be picked up at any Borders or other large bookstore.


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Subject: Tune Add: THE REEL OF HARDEN and THE SCOTS WRIGGLE
From: Anon.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 04:22 PM

There were a lot of accidents with those new fangled reels (see X:1) with that extra eighth note at the end of every measure and a lot of limbs were broken slipping around it or hopping over it, and they were called hop jigs or slip jigs because of that. Then a wise Scot figured out you could just wiggle around it, like in the 2nd dance below.

X:1
T:THE REEL OF HARDEN
N:Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion
L:1/8
M:9/8
K:Am
B2G GGG Bdg|B2G GGG cAF|~B2G GGG gde|f2F (ABcA)f2A::\
g2dg2dgdB|g2dgdef2A|g2d~e2d Bde|f2F (A/B/c)Bf2A:|]

x:2
T:THE SCOTS WRIGGLE
N:Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion
L:1/8
M:9/8
K:D mixolydian
G2c~B2G (B/c/d)B|G2c~B2G efg|G2d~B2G dBG|F2A AFD (F/G/A)F|\
G2gg2G B/c/dB|G2gg2e (f/g/a)f|gfe dcB cde|~F2A AFD (F/G/A)F::\
G3 BGB (A/B/cA)|G3 BGB (A/B/c)A|G3 BGB (A/B/c)A|\
(B/c/d)B gdB AFD:|]


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 03:48 PM

I thought the 'arms down' thing was the result of the one Ecumenical conference between the Catholics and the Calvinists, where the only thing they could agree on was that dancers should avoid any appearance of actually touching one another! Some of those 'kick' steps were intended as metaphorical moral reminders to dancers of the opposite sex not to get too close.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Anon.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 03:35 PM

I dunno. The 9/8 ones were called slip jigs or hop jigs. Some slipped, some hopped, maybe some even managed to dance a bit. I think it was from getting broken arms in the latter that they developed the hornpipe type with the arms stiff at the sides.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 03:17 PM

dear anon...the tune you posted above for "Steg Knetter'd at the Sneck Band"... isn't that one of those rare little things known as a 'Trip Jig'? These were written for dancers who had lost a limb in battle and were using crutches...it was considered a dubious honor to be asked to dance to one, as it usually resulted in further injury.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 03:16 PM

I'm now experts on Celts, but a brush up was on the Scots-l list a little over a week ago.

Roughly Celts were divided into three language groups, Goidelic, (European and long extinct as a language), Gaelic (Irish and Scots), and Brythonic (Welsh, Manx, Breton).

A Northern Irish group called Scots colonized Argyle and Kintyre and adjacent islands in the 3rd and 4th centuries A.D. establishing the 1st kingdom of Dalriada. A further group of Scots under Fergus mac E-something and two brothers conquered the Dalriada Scots about 500 A.D. and established the 2nd kingdom of Dalriada. These subsequently absorbed and eliminated the Picts, and occupied the highlands and western and northern islands of Scotland (named after these Irish).

John Morris in his history 'The Age of Arthur' notes 3 massive emigrations of Britons (Cymri/ Welsh) to Brittany, the 1st is a little fuzzy, but sometime in the period 380-420 A.D. when Roman rule was disintegrating in England. The 2nd was about 460 A.D. when Vortigen's kindom (under a successor) fell apart, and the 3rd about 520 A.D. when civil war in Wales divided the kingdom. [This may have ended with the battle of Camlann, in which Arthur and Modred supposedly perished).

A further note: 'Welsh' derives from a Saxon word meaning 'foreigner' and isn't from Celtic, and modern Welsh prefer to be called Cymri.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bo
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 02:25 PM

To Bruce O

The BS. from Anon was amusing and somewhat inspired by the multiple bits of history that I (for one) have trouble relating without the background education. I really appreciate having access to someone who has a background in this sort of history, please dont take offence at the small minded or easily bored.

Would you be so kind as to give a _real_ explanation of the (insert consonant) celts. I have read some broad histories of the celts\scottish etc people but I would really like to be able relate it to my folk education.

I understand that there are space constraints and I certainly dont want to make this drudgery for you but I would appreciate some background either on this topic or (probably better) under a new heading. If you would prefer email me at dedy@ionline.net, but I think there are others on this forum who are serious enough to appreciate your words.

Bo.

slainte


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 01:47 PM

Thanks, Bill. Let's hope that rubbish by Anon. is over now and we can return to real Celtic music.

Music of the p-Celts. I have no information on any tune that might have been published in Brittany before the end of the 18th century, nor can I find in BUCEM any books of music published on the Isle of Man prior to 1800.

This leaves Welsh tunes as the only ones I know of. Edward Jones published 'Musical and Poetical Relicks of the Welsh Bards' in 1784, with an extended edition in 1794, with a second part in 1800. John Parry has a few Welsh tunes scattered around in some of his publications which are listed in BUCEM.

The 16th century tune "Sedany or Dargeson" may be a Welsh one. Sedany is a corruption of the feminine name Sidanen, and a ballad by Lodovick Lloyd of 1579 in praise of Queen Elizabeth calls for the tune as "Welshe Sydanen". (Internet broadside index ZN3235)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 01:39 PM

Mr. Mulligan, sir,...

1) I would love to have Alta Vista, or other, software for my local and/or intranet searches, but it seems that almost all of it is WIN95 based, and I cannot use it, and it represents a cash outlay that I cannot deal with for the forseeable future..(I read recently that 70% or so of users still use WIN3.1)

2) If you add 'agressive' to 'snotty' in your characterization of Dick's very short & mild remark, you will find that you are pretty much out there by yourself.

3) If you have the audacity to describe the 30+ years of research that Bruce O has devoted to this field as 'BS', just because YOU don't care to follow the details, then you display abomnible manners! Yes...the parody was hilarious, and Bruce probably enjoyed it..(who know...maybe he wrote it..*shrug*), but the material being parodied is of inestimable use to some of us! You have already gotten the 'polite' responses to your remark...this is the one that others are probably thinking...... Do re-think how your words appear before you criticize!


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Anon.
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 11:25 AM

Early Celtic Music

I forgot to add at the end of the 1st paragaph that a sub-tribe of the Dal Riada Scots known as the Campbells had discovered a recipe for a delicious soup using Picts for the base stock. It was appropriately called Scotch Broth. (Earlier tries with Britons proved unsatisfactory, because theyjust couldn't get all the woad off and no one would eat blue soup.)

[I thank Charlie B. for proding my memory here.]


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Wolfgang Hell
Date: 10 Feb 98 - 09:00 AM

Yes, it has happened in the past few months that one post or even a whole thread was not interesting for me. I then stopped reading it but never assumed that it would also be without interest for everybody else. We are a group with mixed interests and backgrounds. Therefore we cannot expect that a contribution is read by everyone with the same level of fascination. And even if there was only one person who was looking just for the information posted it was worth the effort.

Bruce, please go on posting these informations for me and at least some others. I do highly appreciate reading about the historical background for songs or tunes, about when and where a song was first published, about title variants and so on.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Helen
Date: 09 Feb 98 - 10:30 PM

Dan

I found Bruce's information very worthwhile, and just the sort of information I would hope to find in a thread on Celtic music, i.e.what books are available and what can I expect to find in them. The other thing I was looking for in this thread, and it is in here a bit already, is the links other people have found in the net for anything to do with the Celtic tradition.

We all have our areas of expertise, and giving and receiving i.e. sharing that expertise between each other is what I find most rewarding in coming to the Mudcat forum, apart from the pure social fun of chatting with like-minded folks.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 09 Feb 98 - 08:49 PM

Um......... the makers of the big Internet search engines have software available for searching INTERNAL files. The software is readily available and not very expensive and will find the word that you are looking for whether it is buried in the article OR in the title. That way you don't have to choose to search one or the other. You can purchase software from Altavista for example that you can use on your PC to search your own files. In fact you can download a shareware version. Also I had no problem with the fact that he disagreed with me but that he took a tone that was aggresive, and I still don't understand why. And I agree with you Helen, that is probably the best reason to make a seperate thread for each new request. I just thought I would try it this way, I had no idea that it would be met with such vehement oposition. Also it has proven that a longer thread will be overrun by bores like Bruce O. that choose to dazzle us with their expertise on everything. So, I suppose that I am saying that I abandon my stance on the subject and concede defeat. I also would like to applaud the article by Anon. which is a hilarious parody on the B.S. that Bruce has been posting for the past weeks. Bravo. Dan Mulligan


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