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Origins: Arthur McBride - What's the background?

DigiTrad:
ARTHUR McBRIDE
ARTHUR McBRIDE AND THE SERGEANT


Related threads:
Paul Brady's version of Arthur McBride (144)
Lyr Req: Arthur McBride (Planxty) (26)
Lyr/Chords Req: Arthur McBride (from Paul Brady) (46)
Lyr Req: Arthur McBride (33)
Guitar Tab for Arthur McBride (15)
Lyr Req: Parody of Arthur McBride (15)
Lyr Req: To the tune of Arthur McBride (2)
Help: 4-1-1 on 'Arthur McBride??? (8)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Art Mac Bride ( midi made from notation in the Petrie Collection [Stanford-Petrie (1902-05) number 846]. )
Arthur Le Bride ( from Samuel Fone of Blackdown, Mary Tavy, Devon; noted by Mr Bussell in 1892. Midi made from notation Sabine Baring Gould's Songs of the West (1905). )


Brian Hoskin 28 Jun 01 - 09:02 AM
IanC 28 Jun 01 - 08:51 AM
Brian Hoskin 28 Jun 01 - 08:42 AM
IanC 28 Jun 01 - 08:39 AM
IanC 28 Jun 01 - 08:25 AM
Noreen 28 Jun 01 - 08:25 AM
Jim Cheydi 28 Jun 01 - 08:06 AM
ard mhacha 28 Jun 01 - 07:51 AM
Big Tim 28 Jun 01 - 07:15 AM
English Jon 28 Jun 01 - 07:12 AM
Jim Cheydi 28 Jun 01 - 07:04 AM
English Jon 28 Jun 01 - 06:45 AM
English Jon 28 Jun 01 - 06:43 AM
Jim Cheydi 28 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM
Les from Hull 28 Jun 01 - 06:14 AM
GeorgeH 28 Jun 01 - 06:13 AM
Jim Cheydi 28 Jun 01 - 06:08 AM
Ella who is Sooze 28 Jun 01 - 06:04 AM
Les from Hull 28 Jun 01 - 06:00 AM
Ella who is Sooze 28 Jun 01 - 03:40 AM
Ella who is Sooze 28 Jun 01 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 28 Apr 01 - 02:37 PM
Malcolm Douglas 28 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 28 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM
Midchuck 28 Apr 01 - 01:15 PM
Frug 28 Apr 01 - 12:50 PM
Mike Byers 28 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:02 AM

Sorry Ian, it was EJ that pointed to East Anglian connections.

Brian


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:51 AM

Brian

I don't. I never said nowt about it being East Anglian (read my posts). The shillelaghs are one of the things which point to Irish forebears in the DT version. However, it was quite common to "Irishise" or "Scottishise" broadsides, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

My guess is that it may well end up being Scottish, for the reasons I have given. I can't support that at the moment, though, so I'll just have to go away and dig deeper.

Cheers
Ian


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:42 AM

Ian, As a matter of interest, how do you account for the reference in the broadside version to 'shelalas', was this Irish word (I'm assuming this is a variation on shillelagh) common parlance in 19th century East Anglia?

Brian

(Not trying to stir, just interested to know!)


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:39 AM

For some attempt at joined-up background, here are the 3 previous threads on Arthur McBride

Arthur McBride
Paul Brady \ Arthur McBride
Paul Brady's Version of Arthur McBride

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:25 AM

Here's some fun.

The DT has 2 versions

Both are apparently English, but one at least looks to have Irish forebears.

The Bodleian Collection has 3 broadside versions.

One (Harding B25(82)) on a slip, undated and unattributed claims it as "A New Song" Broadside Version. Though the typeface appears to be rather older than the other two versions (below) I'm sceptical about its claim to be "New" as I know that publishers frequently claimed this erroneously.

The other 2 versions in the Bodleian are by J. Harkness (Preston) betweeen 1840-1866 and from The Poet's Box (Glasgow) 1870.

It doesn't appear to be in any of the C16th or C17th ballad collections I have searched.

Though I can't find any evidence of this on the net (nor in any printed sources as yet) I have been told by a normally reliable source that it was, in fact, composed by a well known Scottish songwriter in the C18th. If I could remember his name, I could try and confirm it. More later.

Cheers!
Ian

PS Ard, the earliest spellings appear to be MacBride. if it proves to be Scottish, are you saying you're East Anglian? (if so you're welcome far & near ... "If you're East Anglian, Come into the parlour ...").


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:25 AM

If you put Arthur McBride in the Digitrad and Forum Search box at the top of the main forum page, you will get a long list of previous threads discussing this song and its varous versions.

Try these:

Paul Brady \ Arthur McBride

Paul Brady's version of Arthur McBride

and

Lyr Req: Planxty´s Arthur McBride

Paul Brady's version was collected in Maine.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:06 AM

Fen or broad?


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:51 AM

Hello All. If a man with the name of McBride didn`t come from Donegal, then, I am an East Anglian. Of course the English poor resented joining the rest of the Scots Welsh and Irish to be used as cannon fodder, Well those with brains did. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:15 AM

I read somewhere that the song dates from the 1840s. I would say that Planxty put it on the map (1973) and that Bob Dylan spread it even further (1992), if memory serves.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:12 AM

Earliest known version collected from Henry Payne of Thetford (1813 - 1898) who was a town bandsmen and conductor of the choir of St. Stevens, Little Thetford.

Or have I just made that up?

EJ


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:04 AM

the woild roover?


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:45 AM

And so's the wild rover.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:43 AM

The song is east anglian, not irish.

EJ


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM

Les, I think we're saying the same thing from different angles. What I am suggesting is that it would have been sufficient to say 'many people resented' without needing to specify nationality.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:14 AM

There were plenty of poor Englishmen in the British Army as well, Jim. My dad, for one.

Les


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:13 AM

Jim . . and your point was??

What's there to seethe at? No-one's denied that the army was a "last resort" for many of the English poor, too . . There are songs reflecting English relations with the army (The Recruited Collier springs to mind); this one happens to feature an Irishman.

Interestingly (in contrast to your seething) the song seems to have been popular with English squadies, too!

G.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:08 AM

of course there were no English in the British army because they all lived in luxury

*seethe*

JC


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:04 AM

Thanks... Les...

It's along the lines of what I thought, but good to get some sort of clarification on things.

Thanks

Ella


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:00 AM

The story dates back before to conscription when recruiting parties were sent out to entice likely young lads to enlist. They were then paid a bounty, but served for something like 20 years (if they lasted that long). For poorer people sometimes it was the only way they could survive, hence a larger proportion of Irish, Scots and Welsh served in the British Army than we would normally expect.

Arthur is wise to all this and refuses. The recruiting sergeant takes this as an insult, but before he and the Corporal can attack them, they beat them up. Many Irish people resented that they were expected to fight in the British Army when then had few freedoms at home.

Hope this helps
Les


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:40 AM

oops... where did the Ella bit go?


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Subject: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:40 AM

I was just listening to a song called, Arthur McBride, a nice song, but was wondering what the background is to the song.

Listening to the lyrics it sounds like he's been asked to join the army and doesnt want to enlist.

But whats the whole story?

Can someone tell me the background to this song, like where it comes from etc.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 02:37 PM

According to Roud, "Arthur McBride" in the Madden collection had no printer's name or place, but Madden filed it with broadsides from Dublin. I.e., title is not the same as that listed by Malcolm as the 1st above at the Bodleian Ballads website, so 1836 remains the best date we have for it.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Here is a link to Henry and Susanne's text and notes:  Arthur McBride #1.  The first few quoted are from A.L. Lloyd, Folk Song in England, 1967, and indicate that the song was known in both Ireland and England in the 1830s/40s, and in Scotland perhaps a little later.  It has also been found in America: as has been pointed out before, the version recorded by Paul Brady (and posted here several times) was an American one.

There are three broadside copies at the  Bodleian Library Broadside Collection:

Arthur Macbride: A New Song  Printer and date unknown.
Arthur M'Bride  The Poet's box (Glasgow) Oct. 8, 1870.
 Printed between 1840 and 1866 by J. Harkness of Preston.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM

Supplementing what's already in this forum (search for arthur). Song is Roud #2355 (folk song index), and he lists 8 traditional versions. He lists (broadside index) a broadside copy in the Madden collection with handwritten date 1836. That makes it older than the copies on the Bodleian Ballads website.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:15 PM

Always thought Arthur was a good deal brighter than Willie...

P.


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Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: Frug
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 12:50 PM

Try the notes attached to the song on Henry and Susannes Folksong Index which place it at or about the 18th C.


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Subject: Arthur McBride
From: Mike Byers
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

I was wondering about the origin of this song; most of the references I've found list it as Irish in origin, but some of the lyrics I've come across seem to be in Scots dialect. Does it date from the 1800s or was it written later?


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