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Trimble - Vaya con Dios?

Fiolar 26 Jun 01 - 01:46 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 26 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM
Fiolar 26 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM
GeorgeH 26 Jun 01 - 02:24 PM
paddymac 26 Jun 01 - 04:57 PM
Big Tim 27 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM
GeorgeH 27 Jun 01 - 01:10 PM
Big Tim 27 Jun 01 - 01:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jun 01 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,chrisj 28 Jun 01 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,Ickle Dorritt 28 Jun 01 - 07:07 AM
Big Tim 28 Jun 01 - 07:18 AM
Fiolar 28 Jun 01 - 09:41 AM
Big Mick 28 Jun 01 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Airto 28 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM
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Subject: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:46 PM

So once again David Trimble has decided to edge out on a branch and saw it off behind him. Giving ultimatums that "if you don't do as I say, I'll scream and scream and take my ball away" has no place in Northern Ireland. Makes one wonder if these politicians have learned anything over the years. If he does go and there are several newspaper columnists who will happily wave him goodbye, will it make any real difference to the whole executive? My feelings are that you can cry wolf once too often. Well, July 1st is nearly here, so goodbye and good luck David.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM

I feel sorry for David Trimble, and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Here's a man trying his best to bring peace to his land. And yet you get idiots like Ian Paisley and his friends who like to live in the past. When are these people in both the Loyalist and Republican camps going to embrace peace instead of fighting each other. They've been fighting for over 300 years and I don't think that they'll ever stop.

So good luck to David Trimble and my God go with you.

Peace


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM

I am not sure if "sorrow" is warranted. No one is forcing him to go.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:24 PM

Sorry is definely warranted - for Trimble and the people of Northern Ireland. He has been walking a tightrope towards peace, as have Sinn Fein . .

G.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:57 PM

Seems to me that Trimble's biggest problem is that he's a political follower, not a leader. I think his objective from the beginning has been to bring down the devolved government, emulating Paisley's stunt back in the seventies, but with infinitely greater finesse. On the other side of the street, Adams and McGuiness have exerted great leadership in persuading nationalists to abandon abstentionism, put their faith in the hope of a political resolution, and create the necessary background for a cease-fire. Trimble and company, on the other hand, seem more interested in holding back the tides of time. What really worries me is how much longer can the nationalist communities continue to turn the other cheek. Of course, the militarists on the other side are very hopeful that their continued provocations will eventually goad them into a response, thus enabling them to sya "see, we told you so." If prayer is your thing, this might be a good time to send those energies to all of those folks who truly do want a peaceful solution.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Big Tim
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM

Oh, this is nasty. Just about every politician in NI is a follower not a leader, except Paisley. I reckon Lou Reed is the man to sort out this simple problem.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:10 PM

Personally I don't understand this "follower not a leader" nonsense (not my first choice of word), and I think Paddymac is less than impartial . . .

To attribute bad faith to Trimble verges on the ridiculous . . . What, exactly, are the Nationalist communities "turning the other cheek" to?? The most significant violence at present is the attempts by a minority on the nationalist side to destroy, by violent means, any hopes of peace . . They, MOST OF ALL, are guilty of seeking to provoke a reaction from their opponents which will end the peace process . .

G.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Big Tim
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:26 PM

As I said on another thread a while ago David Trimble "had to backtrack to protect his seat in the forthcoming elections". Well, he just scraped in but if he hadn't made some big gesture to appease his grassroots (following not leading)he would have been out of Parliament, with Jeffrey Donaldson set to replace him. For me, a "neutral nationalist", if such an animal is possible, Trimble represents the best hope from the, relatively, moderate unionist side for the immediate process in NI.

Apart from all that I think DT is just getting sick and tired of the unreal entrenchment from the fanatics on both sides, I said on both sides OK, that he may be looking for a way out. The recent mauling of his wife, a friend of Mrs John Hume, won't have helped. If he resigns I, a Catholic Ulsterman, will be saddened, even further.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:01 PM

There are only two situations under which it makes any sense to give an ultimatum. One is when you are confident that the other side are going to play ball, because you've informally sorted it in advance. The other is when you are pretty certain that they it is going to be rejected, and you are working on that assumption.

It looks as if neither of these scenarios apply in this case. In which case it was just stupid - and it's not a good idea having a stupid man in charge in a crisis. And it's always a crisis on Northern Ireland at this time in its history.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:41 AM

NI politicians all say they want to take the guns out of politics. The UVF was founded as a private army by some loyalist bigshots to defy the implementation of Home Rule, an Act of the British parliament. The IRA was founded by a group of nationalist extremists to counter the effect of the UVF on British opinion. Both organisations gained popular support by reason of the moral vacuum left by the politicians who could not (or would not) give a sustained, reasoned response to the fears of one side of being swamped in a Catholic,largely peasant society (loyalist/Protestants)or, on the other side, of forever being regarded as second-class citizens in their own country (nationalist/Catholics). The partition of 1921 was a flawed solution to the impasse as it gave too much power to Unionists at that time, just as a fully united Ireland could never have achieved the acceptance of loyalists at that time. We will never know now the possible response of Irish people to such proposals as a federated or confederated system of government in Ireland or even across the UK, but it is certain that extreme republicanism became the nationalist response by default rather than any mass conversion to radical political ideology of nationalists. Even now a generous admission of past failures to deal fairly with the legitimate aspirations of the Irish for their autonomy within the larger entity such as was allowed to the 'dominions', Canada, Australia and New Zealand not very much later, would probably be a dam breaker in negotiations and a voluntary re-association with the Commonwealth of Nations would signal to the world that Ireland no longer views Britain as its natural enemy. This could make acceptable the re-establishment of the police force and the final disarming of the IRA. These are the two primal forces that keep Ulster in thrall.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:07 AM

There are not many politicians who can change an entire culture and David Trimble is not alone in beng unable to swerve the public away from the identities they have held for hundreds of years. Perhaps he has forced himself into this position for the same reason that John Major did and for the reason Sinn Fien are unable to bringabout decommissioning - because like politicians everywhere they have lost touch with popular opinion. The question is - are they the true power base? I would have thought in these days of devolution and of an expanding Europe, that Unionists would have wanted to take an entirely different path to that which they seem to take.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:18 AM

Guest: that's the problem, people are always telling the unionists what they SHOULD believe rather than listening seriously to what they actually DO believe.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:41 AM

No easy answer people. The one man who might have made a difference in the 1920s (Michael Collins) got killed because DeValera could not stomach his success and split the country into pro and anti-treaty forces. I for one could never forget that. Craig and the other NI politicians at the time never saw the border as a permanent fixture. Nowadays the legacy of hate has burned deep and the young generation growing up sadly have ingested it with their mothers' milk. The saddest thing I saw for many years was a photograph some years ago of a tiny tot in his push-chair with a tee-shirt on which was emblazoned the legend "No Surrender." No surrender to what for God's sake? British television has started showing a series of programmes entitled "End Game, Ireland." The chilling aspect of it, is, watching people like Michael Stone and Johnny Adair talking calmly about training the young to become like them. Getting back to Trimble, let's not forget that he like most politicians is an opportunist. He was second in command of Vanguard and waltzed down the road hand in hand with Ian Paisley not so very long ago. Will it make a great difference if he goes? Life will still go on I suppose.


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:56 AM

This is another thread that I would hope those that have all manner of preconceived notions about the Troubles would read. And then sit down, ponder it, and then read it again. There are many lessons in the disparate views expressed here.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Trimble - Vaya con Dios?
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM

I don't detect the usual level of panic this time around that the hardliners on both sides are getting the upper hand.

Maybe I'm totally out of touch, but I have the impression that most people in the North like having their own assembly. The DUP are no longer vowing to smash the agreement. They say they want to renegotiate it, by which I think they mean they want to force the IRA into a concession on handing over arms.

Trimble's problem since the election is there is no point for Sinn Fein in negotiating with him when stronger forces are waiting in the wings to dump him. The real business now has to wait until he departs and the marching season is out of the way.

Perhaps I'm naive, but Sinn Fein are now in a position of relative strength from which to make a gesture, and the people to whom they will have to make it will be better placed to give something in return than Trimble was.


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