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Pinewoods - An evil Empire???

InOBU 06 Jun 01 - 03:57 PM
Little Hawk 06 Jun 01 - 04:49 PM
Hollowfox 06 Jun 01 - 06:17 PM
Little Hawk 06 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Subway Sam 06 Jun 01 - 08:15 PM
Bill D 06 Jun 01 - 08:21 PM
InOBU 06 Jun 01 - 09:43 PM
Rick Fielding 06 Jun 01 - 10:16 PM
Peg 06 Jun 01 - 11:11 PM
marty D 06 Jun 01 - 11:22 PM
Sorcha 06 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM
Amos 06 Jun 01 - 11:55 PM
Desert Dancer 07 Jun 01 - 01:16 AM
InOBU 07 Jun 01 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 07 Jun 01 - 06:25 AM
Les from Hull 07 Jun 01 - 08:18 AM
Suffet 07 Jun 01 - 09:17 AM
marty D 07 Jun 01 - 10:03 AM
Fortunato 07 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM
Fortunato 07 Jun 01 - 10:22 AM
Bill D 07 Jun 01 - 11:34 AM
Desert Dancer 07 Jun 01 - 01:59 PM
Joy Bennett 07 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM
Suffet 07 Jun 01 - 02:09 PM
Fortunato 07 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM
Joy Bennett 07 Jun 01 - 02:15 PM
Fortunato 07 Jun 01 - 02:30 PM
Joy Bennett 07 Jun 01 - 03:33 PM
Fortunato 07 Jun 01 - 04:10 PM
Jim the Bart 07 Jun 01 - 04:34 PM
InOBU 07 Jun 01 - 06:35 PM
Joy Bennett 07 Jun 01 - 08:00 PM
Joy Bennett 07 Jun 01 - 08:03 PM
InOBU 08 Jun 01 - 07:38 AM
SINSULL 08 Jun 01 - 09:38 AM
Jim the Bart 08 Jun 01 - 10:23 AM
InOBU 08 Jun 01 - 08:21 PM
marty D 09 Jun 01 - 01:01 AM
InOBU 09 Jun 01 - 07:10 AM
Suffet 09 Jun 01 - 09:57 AM
Jim the Bart 11 Jun 01 - 11:06 PM
InOBU 12 Jun 01 - 07:24 AM
catspaw49 12 Jun 01 - 08:47 AM
InOBU 12 Jun 01 - 08:50 PM
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Subject: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:57 PM

Is Pinewoods the evil empire?
Of course not! What happens in this idiotic world is that there is a huge problem, and instead of working out the problems, we take sides in the I'm OK your NOT ok game of my idea is better than your idea. Fact is, that there is a piss poor folk scene in New York and any one who does not believe it, just check out where the bands go to make money. Here is an idea, in stead of making accusations and defending ourselves against them, lets put some ideas out there about how to remedy the situation. Here is my first suggestion—don't suggest we all join the same club… that is the kind of suggestion we get from Evangelical Christians, no offence to any close minded—"you all are going to hell, but not with me" Evangelicals out there. (how to make friends and influence folk, eh?)
Well that's all from me… for now
An ex-carpenter who never was a joiner…
Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:49 PM

Pinewoods?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Hollowfox
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:17 PM

I feel like I've just tuned in during the middle of a soap opera.


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM

Yeah...me too. One can't help but wonder just what it's all about.....?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: GUEST,Subway Sam
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 08:15 PM

What, there's a piss poor folk scene in New York? You could have fooled me. When was it decided that folk music was about making money? I thought it was about making music.

Sam


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 08:21 PM

Pinewoods is a folk music 'camp'...has quite a long history and many admirers, but like many festivals and events, there are political and social issues which cause friction.....and as to soultions? Scholars differ bicker.


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:43 PM

Oh, we musicans shouldn't pay rent, eh? Well, next time you go to your boss for your pay check, just say, I do my job for love. How much do your tools cost. My pipes cost about 8 to 10 thousand dollars. I have been training at my trade for some fourty years. Give me a break, Sam. Next time you meet Pete Seger, ask him how he makes his money and can you have all his records for free.
Add your own explitives
Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:16 PM

Larry, you're obviously very upset about something. Calm down and explain what's happening. Mudcat is nothing if not helpful in stressful times. What's the story? We're friends here.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Peg
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:11 PM

I am not sure I understand either, there does seem to be some info missing...

That said, I would agree that good folk musicians should make money at their craft if they can...


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: marty D
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:22 PM

What are the requirements to play at Pinewood? Is it really restricted or something? I know there are traditional music Festivals where songwriters are not welcome, and certainly a lot of songwriter-Festivals would never hire an unaccompanied ballad singer. Are there other criteria at work here? Our local folk organisation is heavily traditional at the moment, so the songwriters just go somewhere else. Doesn't it even itself out?

marty


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM

I think this Pinewoods may be what he is talking about....it's a Folk Club in NY........


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:55 PM

I just wrote them and told them to add the Cat to their New Yorky web page.

A


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 01:16 AM

The thread that got InOBU started was this one: Help: Seeking good acoustic venues in NYC. It's about NYC venues, with some reference to the NY Pinewoods Folk Music Club among them.

Pinewoods Camp is in Massachusetts, run by the Country Dance and Song Society, and has a wonderful Folk Music Week, along with an early music week and numerous dance weeks. Check the information on "Programs" here. As Joy said, the NY club was started by folks who enjoyed the Folk Music Week experience.

~ Becky in Tucson, just trying to clarify! And Folk Music Week this year still has space...


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 06:16 AM

Hi Guys!
Sometimes in print things get blown out of perportion because you all don't hear inflection. There is a problem with lack of paying folk venues in New York, especially for Irish bands and bands that don't avoid the important issues of our day. The point of this second thread (READ THE NO PART!)is to get past the orgional turn in the previous thread. This is the way that runs...
Someone asks about where to get paid to play folk in NY. I who have an excellent and underemployed band tell him New York's folk scene is dead. Fact is Folk City, one of the last great begining progressive clubs was the last. Then our dear brother Steve Suffitt listed a long list of Pinewoods venues. I pointed out, that if in deed this was the present New York scene, why was my band not playing there. He said send a demo... I said I did.
This led to a disscussion which ran the gammut from the competency of my band, to the contention that we all have to play free five minute sets untill we make it big... and all the rest.
The point is we need comercial start up folk clubs as exist in most other cities here in New York, not an ongoing rant about pinewoods.
It may be that this was lost to the lack of my precision writing from the effect of cold medicine, but I also think folks and folkies and not reading as carefully as they might.
The point of this thread is HOW CAN WE GET MORE PAYING FOLK VENUES IN NEW YORK!!!!
I used the saterical title to get folks from the other post to look at this and think, most people seem to have ignored what I have said and stayed with the headline.
Not really pissed, just trying to pay bills...
(not the least of which are paying what I owe my band from venues that did not pay)
Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 06:25 AM

Too much caffeine in that cold remedy, Larry? Nil Carborundum Illigitimi!
Best to you & Genie & the band.
RtS (still keeping an eye out for the John Otway stuff)


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 08:18 AM

I've no idea how things work in New York but one of the answers in the UK to 'how do I get more paid work for my band?' is the Irish Pub Scene. These 'theme pubs' are still popping up all over the world (there's a thread about one in Tokyo), and they tend to offer live music opportunities. I'm sure you and your band are familiar with this kind of work, but I am kind of curious to know how it operates in New York with so many of the population having Irish ancestors.

The Downside. In the UK at least there is a certain repertoire that 'must be performed' - The Wild Rover, the Irish Rover, the Auld Triangle, Dirty Old Town, Fiddlers' Green (not all Irish songs as you can see!). But I know a few people (and some excellent, well-renowned musicians among them) who do or have done this sort of work as it helps to pay the bills and allows them to keep playing. Perhaps New Yorkers are more (or even less) discerning?

Les


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 09:17 AM

I do not want to get embroiled in this discussion. I do, however wish to point out that what I listed were seven acoustic venues in New York and two more in New Jersey, all complete with addresses and phone numbers. This was in response to a request for such acoustic venues. None of them is a "Pinewoods venue" in the sense that New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club has any control over whom they book. Each is independently operated, and I suggest that anyone looking for a gig contact the respective owner or manager of each site.

Having said that, I should add that mnay members of New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club have performed at each of these nine sites. But that should come as no surprise for two reasons.

1. Many of the top-notch traditional musicians in the New York metro area are members of NYPFMC. They are the musicians those venues like to book, not because they are Pinewoods members, but because they are so talented.

2. NYPFMC members get recognized because they are very often the people who do volunteer work, lead workshops, teach classes, show up at open microphones, organize community sing alongs, and play at schools or for environmental groups such as Clearwater.

If anything, I would characterize New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club as the Good Empire. But then I am the NYPFMC publicity chairman, so I might be prejudiced.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: marty D
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 10:03 AM

Sorry for the overeaction INOBU but you have to admit that the 'Evil Empire' bit would pique anyone's curiosity. If you'd put a link in to the other thread it would have helped (thanks desert dancer) clarify your points.

One thing has me stumped though. You are obviously playing highly charged political material, and yet you want to be payed a decent wage for it. WHO DOES get payed for making a middle of the road audience uncomfortable? I simply can't picture a club owner who needs customers of all political stripes including Pat Buchanan supporters, actually WANTING a portion of his clientele to be offended. And paying for it to boot. As far as little folk gigs go, I'd be surprised if the people who play them weren't part of some extended family. Don't you think you're trying to have it both ways by whacking society (often needed) but also asking that same society to pay you for doing it? I think that most of the musicians in your field of politics would HAVE to have a day job to pay the rent.

marty


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Fortunato
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM

Steve,

Thanks for the NY folk venue listings. I will try them out next year. How far ahead, generally, do these venues book? Approximately when would they start booking April of 2002, for example?

Would you be so kind as to provide contact information for booking for the New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club.

Thanks, Chance Shiver


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Fortunato
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 10:22 AM

Steve,

Also, are any or all of the venues you listed union shops? That is, must all performers have a union card?

Chance


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 11:34 AM

if someone were to compile a list of all the bands & singer-songwriters who are sure they are good enough to make it, but never seem to get enough bookings and recognition, I suspect it would make good wallpaper.

It ain't fair, it never WAS fair, and no one ever promised it WOULD be fair. There is politics, 'image', talent, luck, chutzpah, connections, choice of material, attitude, and a dozen other factors that determine whether some group & individual gets 'play time' in decent venues.......back when there were MORE places to play, there were more 'wannabes' competing for the stage time.

Wasn't it the Country Gentlemen who made an album years ago titled "Don't Give Up Your Day Job"?


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 01:59 PM

Off the point of this thread, but to correct an error in my post -- Pinewoods Camp in Plymouth, Mass., is run by the non-profit Pinewoods, Inc.. CDSS has many camps there, but a few other organizations use the facility, too.

(I'm a CDSS Board member, so I feel obliged to be sure I'm not spreading misinformation on this!)

On topic -- Traditional music and dance are my day job... but I am very lucky to have a spouse with a day job that pays actual money!

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM

thanks Steve for your clarification of the list your were kind enough to provided for those seeking places to perform. And thanks also to all else for your input, especially Desert Dancer, Les from Hull, Marty D, Fortunato and Bill D -- cooler heads prevail.

I too am a performer with two groups and have not, can not and will not give up my day job because I know what it is to make a living as a performer while trying to pay my now mortgage (past -rent.) We all make conscious decisions based on the information at hand.

One of the biggest problems in New York City is that there is so much competition - on any given night hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of venues run events, and the bottom line as the owner of an establishment in NYC is making money to pay the rent and have some pay for yourself -- difficult at best in this day where real estate in Manhattan has soared to new heights. More clubs close than open each year and many clubs that once were have made way for new high rises.

I do think on the whole that musicians are underpaid. But realisitically, you can't pay out what doesn't come in.

Do I think there aren't owners of venues who are greedy? there probably are many who are.

Would I like to see more venues for quality folk. Certainly.

Was I suggesting we all join the same club -- not necessarily (not that i would mind having many new members in Pinewoods to help the club grow and yes, even change) I was suggesting that if a person is not willing to devote the time and energy it takes to help effect change, then he/she shouldn't gripe about it. Get involved!

A thousand songs can be written about what is wrong with this or that -- and that is good -- get the message out -- but if that's all we do, nothing will change. Writing and singing songs is not enough to make a change -- getting involved in whatever you believe will help to change the things you write about, will help.

and making statements just to get a rise out of people truly infuriates me -- so you have done your job.

end of soapbox -- back on the ground - and back to making music, enjoying friends, and working to effect change.

Joy


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 02:09 PM

For booking information at the nine acoustic venues I listed, contact each of the places individually. Their policies vary widely. Many require a CD or tape, but very often a personal appearance at one of their open microphones is all that is needed. I cannot speak for any of them, much less all of them.

To perform at an event sponsored by New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club, please contact Evy Mayer. She's UKELADY on Mudcat, so you can send her a PM. Or else send her an e-mail at:

ukelady1@prodigy.net

Evy's phone number is (718) 549-1344, but only call after 11 AM.

For a really comprehensive listing of venues in and around New York City, get a copy of the New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club monthly newsletter. You can request one by calling (212) 563-4099 and leaving your name and address.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Fortunato
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM

Oh, so you want to make a decent living as a folk/oldtime/bluegrass muscian? Try dressing like you're seventeen, bare midriff, ultra tight pants, try to appear to be thin and blonde with large breasts. Maybe make a video where people ooze around on each other damn near naked holding banjos? Or buy a cowboy hat and sing soap opera cheating songs. Irish Rap? Celtic Hip-hop?

You know what thay call a folk/oldtime/bluegrass musician without a working spouse?

A)Homeless B)Destitute C)Retirementless D)Health Insurance deficient? E)All of the foregoing?

I think I just depressed myself.


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 02:15 PM

Fortunato -- in answer to your question, Evy Mayer is the NY Pinewoods program chair working with the program committee and the board to develop programs, concerts and events in the club. Don't have her address with me at the moment, but anyone interested in being considered for any of our events may contact Evy at ukelady1@prodigy.net

feel free to contact me directly at joybennett@att.net if you have any questions about anything related to the club (folk music, hair styles, swimsuit competition, the Camp Freedman wave, etc.)

But seriously, just as a guide, we generally book 8-12 months ahead and that will probably be closer to 12-14 months ahead shortly. There are some occasions when we may be able to accommodate a shorter schedule depending upon our program needs. Basically, the longer lead time the better.

We are inundated with requests, so please be patient if you send info. We will get to yours.

The other thing to keep in mind is that all NY Pinewoods board and other staff members are volunteers - no one is paid for the enormous amount of work done on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. Each person makes time in his/her busy life to do some task(s) associated with running this club with members in many states (altered or otherwise), so be kind!

Joy


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Fortunato
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 02:30 PM

Thanks greatly, Joy. I appreciate the contribution you all make through volunteer work for Pinewoods. I have done a bit myself for the Folklore Society of Greater Washington, though not a much as many here.

I am saving the information you have kindly provided.

We are still readying the new act, though our 'proof-of-concept' debut was well received at the Mount Airy Festival. And we have to go into the studio and record.

It will be a while, but I hope to bring The Shivers up to see you one day.

Thanks, Chance Shiver


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 03:33 PM

Thanks Chance -- congrats on the new act and happy it went well at the Mount Airy Fest.

Good luck with the recording.

We're always looking for new talent -- what is the group all about? Vocal? Instrumental? both -- feel free to email me directly. Do tell me all.

thanks

Joy


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Fortunato
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 04:10 PM

Well, Joy, the (The Shivers) act puts oldtime country music and comedy together on stage. Picture George Burns and Gracie Allen with a guitar and an autoharp singing songs by the Delmore brothers and the Carter Family and novelty tunes. Add period (1930's) costumes. Except I'm much better looking than George Burns.

:)

The act is close to ready but since it's new we have no demo and no publicity packet. As you know very well, one has to have good promo materials to get folks attention, so we've some work to do. Thanks for your interest. regards, Chance shiver


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 04:34 PM

InOBU - Making a living in any creative aspect of the music business is tough. Trying to keep together a five piece band as a Uilean Piper? It would be difficult to stack the deck higher against yourself; it would take an incredible amount of talent, luck, chutzpa and all the other stuff mentioned above to find a living wage in that situation, regardless of where you live.

I started fighting the same battle that you are now in, here in Chicago, back in the 70's. Over the years I have learned one hard lesson: there is no guaranteed living wage in the arts. Period. You do what you can, where you are, with what you have. You do it out of love with little hope that what is given back will balance with what you put in. You savor the little victories. Mostly, you adjust your expectations as you get older.

Congratulations on the recording co-op. I wish we were geographically closer so I could see your band and you could hear me play. Good luck. Prove me wrong.

Best wishes,
Bart


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 06:35 PM

Thnaks Bart... Let's see where to start... Check out the words of my songs posted on mudcat, Marty, in fact, my social comentary over the years has pleased audiences from white working class bars, middle class festivals, and progresive groups. We have been heckled once for the song Amadou Diallo, which white middle class audiences find to be about racial blindness not a cop killer song. As to Joy saying singing aint enough... well, I was a civil rights lawyer and I can assure the day of making change incourt without a cultureal movement for change is not working. In the words of Arthur Kenoy, (said to me over a burbon in a bus termanal late one night almost ten years ago) the civil rights movement died in America the day we stopped singing.
As to the general ecconomics of the question... it has been an imperitive of the right to defund social change arts, the film The Cradle Will Rock, is not far from what is happening today and more so...
It is up to us who are struggling to carry the folk tradition into the present, as PEOPLE'S MUSIC with peoples concerns, to remind folk, that we are workers and need to get paid to work.
If that is controvercial, well shoot me.
All the best
Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 08:00 PM

never said don't sing, just that it isn't enough to JUST sing.

A good friend just mentioned to me that Ewan McColl once said that the message is not enough - it has to be good music as well.

I believe that a message in good music will go on for years after we have left the stage. There's plenty of it still around today.

I am a rebel in a large bureaucracy - tend not to tow the party line -- but if I have learned anything - it;s easier to change things from the inside out and with a positive attitude and not always a fight.

Chance -- your group sounds really interesting. Keep me informed of what 's happening with you -- and let me know where you are playing -- of course I'm in the big bad NYC, so I don't know when I would hear you -- but keep me informed and I will send out minions -- ok, I'll let others near you know.

and to the rest of you out there -- the NY Pinewoods has listing of all kinds of venues in and around NYC, NJ, upstate NY and CT -- none affiliated with the club but included for informational purposes -- I say this not to praise pinewoods, but to point performers in the direction of possible performances.

LOL joy


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 08:03 PM

in my previous posting -- it;s the newsletter that has the listing --

typing getting sloppy - so is the brain.,


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 07:38 AM

My dear dear Joy...
Anyone who know me can tell you I have been and am a man of action politicaly. In my years as a lawyer, I never took a fee working for communities which have no representation and no hope of funding, for example, state and unrecognised Indian nations. BUT! I have seen a removal of social content from people's music growing each year. Now, I don't mean to say Pinewoods is part of that process (reminding all that the answer I posted to the shock headline was NO...).
As to the quality of the music, much of the social commentary of past people's music was much more obvious during it's day. No one wondered why Johnnie Faa was going to be hanged - or his love was being held in chains, at the time it was written. That song was about (is about) the genocide of Romanichales (Gypsies) in Scotland.
Have you heard the live demo I sent Pinewoods, just as a bit of curiosity on my part? You speak of the quality of music in general terms in this, while many mudcatters who know my band speak raise a litteral obeservation about the quality of our work and ask, what is it about our band that does not make the grade?
Just currious, not confrontational... Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 09:38 AM

I recently joined Pinewoods in the hopes of getting involved in some local events and just to keep up with what is out there in folk. I also recently attended a Sorcha Dorcha concert which quite literally moved me to tears. My review is posted in a thread here and on Larry's website.

The topics raised within this thread and others have created a lot of interest, comment, suggestions. But the issue of Pinewoods choosing not to employ Sorcha Dorcha, in my opinion, belongs in the PM section.

It is unfortunate that Joy, Suffet, and others find themselves in the position of defending their club's policies in this forum.
Larry, I love you dearly. The unhappy truth is that Pinewoods gets hundreds of applications and can only honor a few. In the real world and in Pinewoods, it helps to know someone. And I would estimate that there are at least a hundred other talented performers who also did not make the cut. Also, possibly, maybe, some who did were not as talented but had an insider pushing for them or paid their dues by stamping mailings and setting up chairs and so earned the opportunity. You, of all people, know that life isn't fair.
So, my suggestion is that Joy et al be allowed to be simply members of the Mudcat, that they promote their events the same way others here do, and this personal issue between you and Pinewoods be kept personal.


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 10:23 AM

Larry - Forget about the Pinewooods of the world - for now. My theory is to ignore any venue that chooses to ignore me. You can bitch about it, or you can make yourself into an entity that people can't ignore. You create your own music, you may have to create your own market, too. You've already begun the process, if you're putting out your own CD's. Take the next step.

Create your own places to play. Find a hall that you can rent on the cheap. Find a small, independent room (coffeehouse, church hall, bookstore) that is willing to put you in on spec on a Sunday afternoon or on a night when nothing else is going on. Find public areas that will allow performers, set up and play. Publicize the shit out of everything you do. Build a fan base. Build an e-mail list. Send notices to publications, send reviews, get friends and band members to send letters. Let the whole metropolitan area know that you are there!

Oh yeah. Get someone out passing the hat and working the crowd (sell CD's, pass out gig notices, band info, etc.) while you're playing.

This approach doesn't generate $100 per man to a five piece band. You'll have to either get the band members to buy into a long term approach or say goodbye. You are committed to your music - committed enough to put your personal money behind it. If your bandmates aren't, treat them like the mercenaries that they are. Thank them, let them know that you'll be glad to use them on a "contract per gig" basis when money gigs are available (Of course, they shouldn't expect to receive the same remuneration at those gigs as full members).

If your players are not willing to commit without guaranteed money, you hobble yourself by viewing them as essential to what you do. Re-think the band concept; use the minimum configuration that it takes to put your music across. . .Later on, when things begin to happen and the gigs support a full band, you can always find other mercenaries. Maybe better ones.

Do it yourself. You mentioned Pete Seeger in another post. He did a lot of freebies and had a lot of doors shut in his face before he worked his way up to the stature he now holds. If you're right about your music, maybe you can do the same - eventually.


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 08:21 PM

In point of fact, what began as an off handed joke about the fact that Pinewoods never even ackowleged getting our demo has raised a lot of hackles. Now, generally when folks get all hot and bothered (I'm not about this) well... you know the rest. As to Bart's suggestion, been there, doing that, but this is New York. Nothing is cheep. We were the house band at a venue which we brought the first music to... and the city buracracy finally closed them down. As far as organising, the caberet licences are a really killer of culture here.
All the best Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: marty D
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 01:01 AM

Larry, you got me again. I'm going to have to have a rubber stamp made saying 'I'm sorry Larry'. It's true I DID think you must be singing some pretty political material, and wondering why you were surprised that it was hard to get a gig. Your posts on Mudcat have always seemed to be very much from a left wing perspective and I guess I assumed much of your music was too. I wouldn't go as far as to say that most of the Irish style music I've seen and heard over the years was liteweight but it seems mostly either instrumentals or songs about 'the ould sod', with the ONLY politics being of an 'Ireland for the Irish' nature. I figured by you asking people to actually think about issues, you were on shaky ground with your average bar patron. Perhaps it's just 'too many artists, too few gigs'.

marty


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:10 AM

Marty: You hit it on the head, too many artists, too little gigs. Add to that the fact that New York has become the nightmare of capitolism unrestrained, where only the most generally popular is fostered, so you get the biggest audiences - the road to the quick buck, and there is vertually no helping the little guy. Once we had CEDA grants, part of the Johnston war on poverty. Like the WPA we were able to establish experimental clubs build new audiences, it just is not happening the way it was. Shoulda been born to rap about sexist violent issues I suppose. Ah well, what can you do. Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 09:57 AM

Since Larry mentions rap, it reminds me of a wonderful young group that came together in New York 5 or 6 years ago. They were called the Disciples of Hip Hop, and their rap songs were about serious social and political issues: immigrants' rights, police brutality, exploitation of the workers who actually produce the fashionable clothing, abuse of children and the elderly guns and the politics of the gun lobby, gentrification and the displacement of poor people from their own neighborhoods, etc.

So what happened to the Disciples? They were feautured in "The Source." "Vibe" gave them a glowing review. They played the Back to the Bronx Festival and made countless appearances at street fairs, political gatherings, and even some schools throughout the 5 boroughs of New York City. They appeared at the Donnell Branch of the New York Public Library, and PBS's "Rights and Wrongs" did a piece about them. They even performed at a Hudson River Sloop Clearwater Pumpkin Sail concert at South Street Seaport. Rap at a Clearwater event? Amazing!

But in the end, all of this was just "chump change" compared to what was getting promoted and what was getting airplay. I haven't heard of the Disciples in 2 years, so I can't say for sure what happened to them. I heard that some of them haved moved on to college or to jobs or to other things in life. The remaining Disciples have taken on some new members and I hear they are strictly Old School, That's the kind of stuff LL Cool-J, Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash, and the Fat Boys were doing. Also Debbie Harry when she was with Blondie. Bragging and erotic, for sure, but not the gangsta crap. I don't expect there's a huge liveligood to be made in that stuff, either, but it's certainly more than what the Disciples could have made by staying the course. The equivalent, I suppose, would be if Larry and Sorcha Dorcha gave up doing songs about contemporary political issues and confined themselves to "The Leaving of Liverpool," "The Wild Colonial Boy," "Fiddlers Green," and an occasional "Come Out You Black and Tans."

By the way, the Disciples of Hip Hop never did a New York Pinewoods concert. However, the NY Pinewoods program committee chairman at the time, David Kleiman, recommended them for the Back to the Bronx Festival and the Clearwater concert, both good venues for their message and their music.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:06 PM

I thought you might have gone that route before. But I really don't think there is a viable alternative these dayds to "do it yourself". In a way it's like alchemy: you keep repeating the process until the lead turns to gold. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:24 AM

Hi Steve:
That really is what it is all about, progressive rap is "classicalized" the process by which the issues and relivence of the community who writes the music is removed and the class intrest of those who promote the music is substituted. Sex and money is what is important to the owners of the record industry while peace and justice concerns us.
This is why I started the co-op. The struggle is that we live in a community where young musicians have grown up so influenced by the me generation, I keep getting members more concerned with how they can get more than the other guy out of the effort, deffend their turf, etc.
But, Bartholemue is right, you keep plugging cause there is nothing else to do. We live in a world that does not work, in a vilent and hateful nation, quick to kill and slow to foster. Most people are board with that message, because they profit from America's violent empire - Roman's didn't like to hear the truth about their wealth, so they threw folks to the lions. Well, what can ya do...
Remeber what Phil Oachs said? "Protest music is the stuff they don't play on the radio cause they say the words aren't good enough or the guy cant sing... while they are playing the shit they play on the radio"
NO longer singing the truth to power, but the truth to apathy...
Larry


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:47 AM

I dunno' if I can agree with you on the apathy thing Larry. Personally, I can either take it or leave it.............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Pinewoods - An evil Empire???
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:50 PM

Bless us, OUR SPAW IS BACK! God love ya Spaw, (who else will? Only kidding) Great to see ya in the pink. Larry


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