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When does Lent end?

Freereed 12 Apr 01 - 05:17 AM
Skipjack K8 12 Apr 01 - 05:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Apr 01 - 06:00 AM
Gervase 12 Apr 01 - 06:51 AM
IanC 12 Apr 01 - 07:41 AM
Freereed 12 Apr 01 - 08:24 AM
IanC 12 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM
Big Tim 12 Apr 01 - 08:41 AM
MMario 12 Apr 01 - 09:03 AM
Skipjack K8 12 Apr 01 - 09:50 AM
Mrrzy 12 Apr 01 - 10:00 AM
Burke 12 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM
MMario 12 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM
mousethief 12 Apr 01 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Don Meixner 12 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM
Ringer 12 Apr 01 - 01:11 PM
Ringer 12 Apr 01 - 01:12 PM
mousethief 12 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM
Sarah2 12 Apr 01 - 02:26 PM
radriano 12 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM
jeffp 12 Apr 01 - 02:51 PM
mousethief 12 Apr 01 - 03:22 PM
mousethief 12 Apr 01 - 03:27 PM
mousethief 12 Apr 01 - 03:28 PM
mousethief 13 Apr 01 - 03:06 AM
Joe Offer 13 Apr 01 - 04:23 AM
Bill D 13 Apr 01 - 11:08 AM
Midchuck 13 Apr 01 - 12:22 PM
Mark Clark 13 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM
Mrs.Duck 13 Apr 01 - 12:42 PM
Burke 13 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM
Burke 13 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM
Mark Clark 13 Apr 01 - 01:13 PM
Susan from California 13 Apr 01 - 01:17 PM
Mrs.Duck 13 Apr 01 - 01:47 PM
Mark Clark 13 Apr 01 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 10 Apr 20 - 10:45 AM
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Subject: When does Lent end?
From: Freereed
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:17 AM

We're dying for a drink. We thought Lent ended on Easter Sunday. Hoever someone said that it ends on Easter Saturday at noon. Any advice?


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:51 AM

Keep the cork in, brother. Midday it is, you and me both.

Greg


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:00 AM

Well, mine ends at Easter Breakfast with bacon, eggs, sausage, black pudding, mushrooms, hash browns, toast, coffee and BEER!

Easter Eggs follow.....

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:51 AM

I was always led to believe it ended at sunrise on Easter Day. Hang on in there, you chocoholics.
Of course, for those of us who gave up all our New Year's resolutions for Lent, it's no great sacrifice..!


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: IanC
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:41 AM

Thought so. Good Friday isn't in Lent. It's a special day of fasting and abstinence. Here it is from the Catholic Church.

By the threefold discipline of fasting, almsgiving and prayer the church keeps Lent from Ash Wednesday until the evening of Holy Thursday. All of the faithful and the catechumens should undertake serious practice of these three traditions. Failure to observe any penitential days at all or a substantial number of such days must be considered serious.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Freereed
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:24 AM

Skipjack - Do you mean noon Saturday or noon Sunday? Ambiguous! Fingers crossed!


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: IanC
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM

Sorry.

Read my own message and I didn't make it quite clear. Lent ends on Thursday Evening.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:41 AM

My father always stopped smoking for Lent, but always had an amnesty on St Patrick's Day, then sat up until a minute past midnight Sat/Sun to resume the puffing. He smoked for 71 years and lived until age 78.

PS I notice Martin O'Neill is off drink for Lent.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:03 AM

Technically Lent ends on the Evening of Maunday Thursday


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:50 AM

Err..... Today, innit? Like 5 Blighty hours?

I'm sure GF is a fast day, so looks like it's whenever the sun's over the yard arm Saturday, Freereed. That's crisps, coffee, chocolate, conjugal rights, and liquor, but in what order?

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:00 AM

How about When you give back?


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Burke
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM

Is seems to me that Lenten fast is a spiritual exercise & the important thing is not some absolute time but what it's meaning to you. Lent may officially end on Thursday because of the Lord's Supper meal on that might entail breaking a fast. If I'd given something up, I'd break the fast when I celebrated the resurrction, i.e. when I have my Easter Communion. If it's at a Saturday vigil, end it then, it not Sunday morning.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM

yup - Burke, that's the spirit of the thing, not just the letter!


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:21 AM

For the Orthodox, Lent ends just after the Liturgy on Lazarus Saturday (the day before Palm Sunday). Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday are a sort of intermission (we customarily eat caviar on the one, and fish on the other, although few Americans follow through on the caviar thing -- ugh!), then Holy Week starts, and we're back to serious fasting.

Holy Saturday is veggies-and-wine-only. Then we break our fast immediately after the Pascal Liturgy (which usually ends at about 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning) and stuff ourselves silly.

Alex


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

My understanding is that if He rolls the stone back from the tomb and steps out and then sees his shadow there are six more weeks of Lent.

Don


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:11 PM

Being a pedant, I point out that the Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Monday is not Easter Saturday. Easter Saturday is the Saturday after Easter. Weeks run from Sunday to Saturday. The day after Good Friday is Holy Saturday or Easter Eve.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:12 PM

Dunno why I said "between GF & Easter Monday" - I should have said Easter Sunday.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM

In the O. Church, the days after Pascha (the feast of the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, commonly called Easter in the west, but we avoid using that word because often y'all celebrate it on a different day than we do, and having 2 words for 2 different days seems more convenient than calling htem the same thing and then having to distinguish which one you mean)

Let me start over: The 6 days after Pascha are prefaced with the adjective "Bright."

Thus, the day after Easter is "Bright Monday" and the Saturday of the same week is "Bright Saturday" and the last day of "Bright Week."

The days before Pascha, starting on Monday, the day after the Feast of Palms, are all Holy. Thus, Holy Monday, Holy Tuesday, etc. We don't say "Good" but "Holy Friday" and we don't say "Maundy" but "Holy Thursday."

Just FYI (not that anybody probably cares; I think it's interesting to note differences between different traditions).

Alex


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Sarah2
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:26 PM

Freereed, if you want to get technical, you can break your "fast" on any feast day, as they are not considered days of Lent. Lent is forty days and does not include any Sundays or any other feast days (i.e., St. Patrick's), so you can relax your obligations on those days.

That's why Easter is a "moveable feast" -- some saints' feasts may fall on Sunday, some not. Whichever, they are not numbered as days of Lent.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: radriano
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM

When it's repaid! (yuk, yuk)


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:51 PM

Alex, keep posting the Orthodox information. It's fascinating to learn of the differences.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:22 PM

Thanks, Jeff. I love to hear myself talk, and an opening like that is too good to pass up.

Another huge difference is that our Lent includes Sundays. Thus it starts on a Monday, not a Wednesday. We also have a long pre-lenten season to sort of get us warmed up, including a totally fast-free week, followed by a regular week, then a week in which we eat dairy and eggs and fish but no meat, and then finally Lent proper. And of course as I said it ends the day before Lazarus Saturday; Holy Week is not part of Lent. Thus by the time Pascha rolls around, we have been cheeseless for 49 days, and meatless for something like 58 days.

The Paschal Liturgy for us is the height of the year. It starts all slow and melancholy, with a lament for the death of God (very pagan, in a way), and then breaks into joyous craziness. While the choir is chugging away at the canon, Father John (our priest) wades through the crowd, dousing everybody with holy water and shouting (in several different languages), "Christ is risen!"

The people shout back, "Indeed he is risen!"

And this happens over and over and over and over.

Eventually he gets a little tired and gives Deacon Joseph the water and the broomlike splashing device. If you thought Father John was excited, you are blown away by the deacon. He verily trumpets out the call, and the people, already getting hoarse, meet him decibel for decibel in their response.

This goes on for some time, then we settle down again and have the regular liturgy service.

Needless to say, immediately after the Paschal Liturgy (which ends around 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning) we have a big potluck and eat a bunch of meat and cheese. Most of us don't shit for a week after Pascha just from that alone.

Then we go home and collapse, and come back at noon for a very short "Agape Vespers" service, at which the gospel (John 20:19-28) is read in as many languages as we can read it in. We always get Norwegian, because one of our members is Norwegian, and we always snigger at hearing about Thomas "stikken da fingger" in the nail-hole, and "stikken da handa in da zeida". It's the highlight of the service.

Then at our parish we have a huge cook-out and potluck and eat ourselves totally sick, and dance Virginia Reels to our resident string band (which I usually get to join as an honorary temporary member, since Jeannie needs to lead the dancers and so can't play guitar or banjo while so doing).

I love Holy Week and Pascha! Yipppeeeeee!

Alex


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:27 PM

I hope I didn't offend anybody with the "pagan" comment; I meant it in a good way: we celebrate the death of our bod, like many pagan religions do.

Actually we've kyped a lot of stuff from the pagans (largely greco-roman and slavic pagans), I'm not ashamed to say, because it was good stuff. Thanks, pagans!

Alex


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:28 PM

oy! our "god" not our "bod"

Or should we say our god's bod?

Sorry.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 03:06 AM

Boy I sure know how to kill a thread, don't i?


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 04:23 AM

I dunno, Alex. I think you killed Lent. [grin]
In the Roman Catholic Church, the Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and the Easter Vigil on Holy Saturday) is considered a separate season that begins with the liturgy on Holy Thursday evening - but Lent doesn't really end until the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus at the Easter Vigil.
But heck, if somebody has been abstaining from something important like sex or alcohol, I think we'd better declare an end to Lent right now.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:08 AM

when I was a Unitarian for several years (before deciding it was too structured *grin*) we'd wander in to this meeting on Sunday...have a few Humanistic homilies, sing a Unitarian Hymn like "We Would Rather Not be Moved", and break up into small groups to congratulate ourselves on NOT having all the baggage of the Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, Episcopalians...etc...(had a nice little white building, not nearly the upkeep of those big cathedrals and such)

ah, well, it is fascinating to see how very different our lives and approach to the 'great mysteries' can be.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:22 PM

There was a young fellow named Kent Who gave up on all f***ing for Lent And three different whores Had to go sleep outdoors, 'Cause they had no more money for rent.

That just came to me as I was reading this thread.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM

Well, Alex seems to have covered the territory pretty well as he has in a few other threads. (Way to go Alex!) However I thought I could add that we Orthodox don't call it Easter, at least not formally. This is partly because the word Easter evidently originally referred to some pagan vernal equinox or spring fertility sort of celebration and the name got appropriated as the Christian armies conquered the pagan regions.

The word Pascha is really the Christian name for the feast day and actually means Passover. Pascha is the new Passover with Christ as the Lamb and His sacrifice, His blood, saving us from death.

As Alex says, we have many glorius hymns. One of my favorites is sung on Holy Thursday.

Today He is suspended on a tree,
He who suspended the earth over the water.

But the greatest, sung at the Paschal Liturgy, is

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life.

This hymn also is sung in many of the traditional languages of Orthodox Christians. In our parish, we don't sing the Russian version (though I wish we did, it's a very stirring version) but we sing it in Greek, Arabic and of course English. We will sing that at every Liturgy from Pascha until the Feast of the Assention.

Back to you, Alex.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:42 PM

I always took it that Lent ended on Palm Sunday on the basis that it is supposed to remind one of Christ's forty days in the wilderness which ended with him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Good Friday has always been a non- meat day for Catholics and many C of E even after the old fish on Friday rule was relaxed. Last Sunday was 40 days from Shrove Tuesday. That makes Lent over by five days in my book.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Burke
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

When is Orthodox Pascha this year. April 15, or some other day.

Right about Easter not being a Christian based name for the day. I think it's the name of a goddess who was honored, or whatever it might have been called, in the British Isles (Celtic, Anglo-Saxon?) about this time of year. Coloring eggs comes out of a pagan celebration of some kind as well. Anyone know what the Latin, French, or Greek words might have been?


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Burke
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

Mrs. Duck, if you don't count the Sundays from Shrove Tues. you end up later. Saturday, I think.

Answering my own question about the origin of Easter, the OED has the earliest usage as 890. Eostre (Northumb. spelling of Éastre), the name of a goddess whose festival was celebrated at the vernal equinox; her name shows that she was originally the dawn-goddess.] She was a Teutonic goddess.

Most other languages follow the Pascha pattern that Alex mentioned. (L. pascha, Fr. Pâques, It. Pasqua, Sp. Pascua, Du. pask).

If a storm from the north east is a nor-easter, is a storm from the east an easter?


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 01:13 PM

Burke, thanks for finding the origin of the word Easter. I knew it was originally pagan but didn't have more information than that.

And the Orthodox date for Pascha this year corresponds with the Western date, April 15, although that doesn't happen very often. The reason the dates usually differ is techno-political and quite arcane. I considered providing a detailed explanation here but came to my senses before committing the act. You're welcome.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Susan from California
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 01:17 PM

Since my spouse always gives up the Internet for lent, I, for one, am glad for Joe Offer's interpretation! it gives me two more days of posssible computer time! I almost *BG* thought I was going to be compelled to tell him that he could get back on now!


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 01:47 PM

Yes but I do count Sundays. I don't suppose Jesus popped home just because it was the weekend! Eostre was indeed the goddess of the dawn but also of new life and was suymbolised by an egg from which we also get the word oestrogen. Another symbol of new life and fertility was the hare due largely to its ability to multiply even faster than a rabbit (it can in fact conceive whilst still pregnant) and this is the origin of the Eastewr bunny.. The timing of Easter has little if anything to do with real dates for the crucifixtion and was chosen to coincide with the pagan celebrations of the coming of Spring much as midwinter was taken over by Christmas.


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:57 PM

Actually the timing of Pascha/Easter—though not Eostre—has a lot to do with the real dates for the crucifixion. The events celebrated in the Christian Pascha (Passover) took place at the time of the Jewish Passover. That's why the date of Pascha is calculated loosly as the first Sunday following the first full moon following the vernal equinox. The Hebrew calendar was/is a lunar one and the Jewish celebration of Passover was based on a similar calculation.

Christmas (the feast day of Christ's birth) was, I believe, originally observed by the Church as a minor feast day sometime around July. I don't have the history at hand but this feast was in fact moved to December 25 at a later time. I think this was in part another case of trying to infuse an entrenched pagan celebration with Christian meaning.

      - Mark (still trying to sidestep explaining the whole calendar thing.)


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Subject: RE: When does Lent end?
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:45 AM

refresh


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