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Help: Is there only one Water?

Luke 05 Apr 01 - 03:23 PM
MMario 05 Apr 01 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 05 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM
Bert 05 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM
gnu 05 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM
Midchuck 05 Apr 01 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,#1 05 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM
katlaughing 05 Apr 01 - 04:19 PM
Geoff the Duck 05 Apr 01 - 04:21 PM
kendall 05 Apr 01 - 04:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Apr 01 - 04:47 PM
Bill D 05 Apr 01 - 05:33 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 05 Apr 01 - 07:39 PM
kendall 05 Apr 01 - 07:48 PM
Bill D 05 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM
sophocleese 05 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM
Luke 05 Apr 01 - 10:51 PM
Sorcha 05 Apr 01 - 10:55 PM
GUEST,#1 06 Apr 01 - 12:11 AM
Ebbie 06 Apr 01 - 01:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Apr 01 - 05:29 AM
Luke 06 Apr 01 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,Carol's Friend Don 06 Apr 01 - 01:17 PM
GUEST 06 Apr 01 - 01:43 PM
Roger in Sheffield 06 Apr 01 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,#1 06 Apr 01 - 02:56 PM
pattyClink 06 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,#1 06 Apr 01 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Carol's Friend Don 06 Apr 01 - 04:36 PM
Stewart 06 Apr 01 - 04:46 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 06 Apr 01 - 05:12 PM
sophocleese 07 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM
CarolC 10 Apr 01 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,petr 10 Apr 01 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,#1 10 Apr 01 - 10:45 PM
Peg 10 Apr 01 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,1-16-1 10 Apr 01 - 11:04 PM
Dani 11 Apr 01 - 08:42 AM
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Subject: Is there only one Water?
From: Luke
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:23 PM

Probably someone has posted to this topic but I have not seen it so, here goes. I was listening to NPR yesturday and there was a piece on world struggles and they were saying that when it all shakes down the next world confrontaion will not be about food or fuel but about water. I have always wondered if water was finite. Means is there only just so much, has only ever been just so much and if that is the case. How about the big corporations buying up third world countries water supplies bottleing them and selling them to us so that those countries can make some money but then the farmers there can't grow food because the water table is so depleted. I just wonderedif any here have thought about this.

Thanks,

Luke


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:37 PM

water is finite in that there is only so much hydrogen and oxygen available on this world - but it can and is both created and destroyed daily due to various natural and man-made causes. Water can also be distilled from the sea - and purified from sources undrinkable in their natural state.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM

One can make tritium in a nuclear reactor, and from it make T2O, which is the heaviest water (barring O18 instead of O16). It will kill you, but you won't die thirsty.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM

When they started drilling for oil in Saudi Arabia, they struck large resources of fossil water, that's water that has been trapped in the rocks and has not been part of the world's water cycle for over 200,000 years.

It's slightly brackish, but drinkable once you get used to it. You can buy 'sweet water' ('mye baleh'), which is purified water, fairly cheaply.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM

Yes. Water is terribly scarce and the water you are drinking is not fit. Therefore, I, a big corporation, am willing to sell you water you can be happy to drink. I will tell you the price and you will pay it. In the meantime, I will line the pockets of the politicians who allow me to perpetrate this farce and piss on the poor and unknowing from great heights with great accuracy.

Happy ?


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:10 PM

There's a finite amount of water on the planet, but there's so much that it's infinite for all practical purposes. The problem is that almost all of it is in the oceans, and too salty for drinking or irrigation unless the salt is removed, which takes a lot of energy, or in vapor in the atmosphere, and unuseable until it comes down. And too much of the fresh water is either polluted or in the wrong place (actually, the water is in the right place, the people just chose to settle in the wrong place, but you know what I mean).

Cheer up. If the global warming thing goes as the prophets of doom predict, when the Antarctic icecap melts down, all our coastal cities will have plenty of water. Lots and lots.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM

And all salty.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:19 PM

At least then we won't have to worry about being up the crick without a paddle.:-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:21 PM

Oh Goody Good
QUACK QUACK QUACK
Geoff the Duck!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:34 PM

Will Canada become the richest country in the world?


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:47 PM

I believe England is about the only country where they've ever managed to have a drought and floods at the same time, in the same part of the country. That kind of thing requires a kind of genius. And privatisation.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 05:33 PM

good, fresh water is found in rivers & lakes....IF we haven't dumped sewage & industrial waste into it...trouble is, we have. Places in Southern Calfornia and Arizona, etc. are dependant on water which starts in Montana, Idaho, Colorado, etc....but there are a whole bunch of folks ahead of them who seem to want to use that water for drinking, power, irregation BEFORE it gets south....and yet they keep growing in Phoenix and trying to build golf courses...and complaining because Colorado & Wyoming don't allow it all to flow on down!

The ONLY solution for the long term is fewer people and less demand....now, imagine a politician campaigning on that platform.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:39 PM

Yes there is only Waters,. No qualification. one sky, Rain, snow, sleet hail, wind all are unquantifyable. TV so callerd M Love and kisses, Jody


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:48 PM

Bill, every problem we have can be traced to too many people.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM

kendall, I suspect you are entirely too right...but it's like strip malls...no one seems to comprehend that we have had enough for a long time now.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM

I've been looking for a book that I was reading a couple of weeks ago. Its called Water and its by (I think) Marc de Villiers. It won the Governor General's Award here in Canada for Non-fiction. Its an excellent way to find out an awful lot about the water on this planet. Most of the water on the planet is salt water and undrinkable. Of the fresh water on the continents not all of its accessible and a lot of what is accessible is becoming contaminated. If you can find the book I reccomend it (if you find my copy can I have it back please?).


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Luke
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:51 PM

Thank you kindly one and all. I enjoy the notion of one water. everyone of us kneeling down to the same watering hole. My point is that maybe now would be a good time for us to start thinking about water rights before Coca cola buys all the rights to the aquifers in Nebraska or South America.

Luke


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:55 PM

Great song title and subject, here...One Water.....go for it guys...! (and don't blame it on Wyoming, it's Nebraska's fault!! sneaky grin, here!)


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:11 AM

Icky song learned growing up there

Omaha, Omaha, finest place you ever saw; When you go to sleep at night,
Dream of Omaha.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 01:38 AM

All glacier water is fresh water, as is snow.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 05:29 AM

There is never a shortage of water globally. The planet is mainly covered in water. It's main inhabitants primarily water. It's plant life, soil and skys contain vast quantities. All organisms give up their water eventualy. All water consumed is eventualy put back into the cycle. It is the ultimate renewable resource.

Problem is that it is often in the wrong place or wrong state at the wrong time.

Good argument here for using hydrogen instead of fossil fuels btw. Once (if ever!) we crack the problem of extracting hydrogen from water efficiently we could solve a number of other problems, especialy polluted water supplies. Hydrogen can be extracted from water in any state. Salt, polluted, poisoned - it doesn't mater. Once combined with oxygen (burnt) for energy it gives off pure water so we clean up the planet in more ways than one!

Hope the oil companies buy it. Even more I hope it happens so we (GB that is) can start to sell water to the Arab states......;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Luke
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:45 AM

So I guess since theres just so much damn water everywhere it's about who's gonna own it where ever it is. Those guys from Coca Cola got great big overcoats. They can exist where other actual human beings can't. There's probably some junior vp somewhere just chomping at the bit to be in charge of polar plumming. He has a bunson burner and a tin can and a frozen smile. I guess there's just one more little thing. There are companies that are buying water rights from countries that shouldn't really be selling them cuz it will starve their populations in the end. Since we can buy as consumers whatever water we want. Maybe theres a list somewhere of companies that we should not support in their efforts. A water boycott so to speak

Luke.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 01:17 PM

As probably one of the few people to complete a Masters on the subject (Safety and Environmental Management - WVU '99) my views on the above subject remain somewhat opposed to my friend CarolC's views. From the day the Kobe Accords were signed by the first benighted government functionary Clinton could get to put his initials, "AG" on them, and later to almost universal Senate condemnation, we have had several rather focused discussions on water and other resource issues.

So instead of injecting a viewpoint that might actually be formally educated on the this subject, (what ever that might mean to those caught up in the passions of belief) might I suggest you folks refer to the EPA web site on local community water quality reports. They also contain links to local watershed conditions, and test reports, by state, region, county, municipality. Many of the original reports can be accessed through state or federal EPA sites. The blunt fact is that our water is as good, standard for standard, as any first tier nation, and given our tremendous political and cultural diversity, we use our resources pretty well. (And no, we won't bottle other countries water and ship it here; think transportation and shipping, materials handling, and the fact that it all eventually evaporates into the atmoshere for world wide redistribution... or we could all watch each other pee in a jar... oh).

They won't diminish the finely wrought hysteria over the issue (for example the fact that, if the entire North Pole completely melts, the water level in the world will DROP about 4-6 per cent - try this with a glass of tea and six or more ice cubes to fill it to the brim, then allow it to melt... oh. It's a different story with glaciers, but different dynamics too).

Anyhoo, try www.epa.gov/safewater/ccr1.html, enter your state, then your county from drop-down menus. Be sure and check your watersheds on the sidebars.

The laws that Nixon sought passage, then immediately signed (stunningly true), like the original EPA legislation, and its progeny, RICRA, FIFRA, and SARA II, are not perfect, but they still beat the living hell out of any other country in the world, given the level of our bio-socio-technical culture, our evolving knowledge of how those inter-relationships are driven by nationstate economics, and our national ability to counter-march off the dime, if our enlightened self-interest is made manifest. History is littered with nations, tribes, and cultures that failed to realize that imperative (even now, Vietnam begs for our trade). As the Arabs say, "Dogs bark, but the caravan moves on..."

(SOON TO BE SEEN AS THE ACRONYM "DBBTCMO".)

(Now somebody go wake up Carol... )


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 01:43 PM

A person knowledgeabe of basic natural principles and weather patterns could, for instances, build a line of plants across the path of a prevailing system and dry the air in a manner similar to the way the rockies dry the air that arrives from the Northwest making Denver's weather much drier than that to the west of that mountain range.

Money for this would be available in the middle east and targets galore await. The drought in Ethiopia that spawned "We Are The World" could be recreated and controlled by political forces.

It might only take the removal of a few percentage points of moisture (free water vapor, not electrolisis) to trigger a disaster.

Those paragraphs only represent supposition, but if true would be just as dangerous as a rogue nation openly conducting nuclear tests.

What think ye?


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 02:26 PM

If you have a river that passes through several different countries you have a problem, if the countries are arid then you have a big problem. So if a river that begins in the mountains of Turkey and flows through Syria (and maybe Iraq? don't have access to an Atlas right now), that rivers clean water resource can be a source of conflict. If a dam was proposed on this river in Turkey or just more water extracted from that river then there would be less flowing to Syria. The upstream country can control the clean water of its neighbour with effects on health and agriculture. Even worse the water could be polluted in Turkey (by heavy industy perhaps) and no clean water would be available downstream in Syria via this river.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 02:56 PM

No water tastes as good as the melt-off right at the edge of a mountain snowfield in the spring or early summer.

Now, how many want to buy my new fossil water dousing sticks at the super-saving sale special price of #499.97


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: pattyClink
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM

'nother hydro-worker checking in... The concern is valid and worth thinking about. But, water has a cycle, it rains, it gets stored, it gets used, it evaporates, it rains. There's plenty unless you get greedy.

"Greedy" means insisting on building your largest cities in deserts, putting golf communities in deserts, irrigating cotton in deserts, polluting your water sources, etc. It also means piping water from where there's plenty to supply unthinking greedy people in the desert who still wash their cars twice a week with drinking water because it's so cheap.

What we may see someday: a few unpleasant events that in the end will benefit us because they will cause us to wise up and stop being reckless with something so important. Like: prices rising to reflect actual cost of providing water in unsustainable places.

As with all doomsday scenarios, the worriers are discounting the flexibility of humankind. If push comes to it, there is a lot that can be done; artificial recharge (directing rainwater to storage), dual piping (using funkier water for washing and sewage and conserving the crystal clean stuff for drinking) etc., and the one we don't like but mankind has used many times to survive--migration away from unsustainable places. 'course many people would rather fight to take somebody else's stuff, so wars are possible, but not too likely wherever there are more practical answers.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 04:19 PM

Developers seem like to start in the desert and build huge fountains and swimming pools and lakes to raise the humidity. With a little double-speak it's called efficient use of H2O.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 04:36 PM

Yo Patty, Right on... and for those who want to see what can be done under literally all of the conditions Patty mentions, look at what the Israelis are doing. They're even selling their sweat pipe technology to the Jordanians, to keep the cost of war too high. (You don't want to drive a tank through your own orchards, even to attack your ancient enemy). Golan Heights, Smolan Heights, it's all about water.

I've often said that while Malthus postulated that food grew at an arithemetic rate, and populations grew at a geometric rate, he never knew that technology would grow at a trigonomic rate. But why spoil a perfectly good panic? Chicken Little was Right! (or CLWR!)


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Stewart
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 04:46 PM

Recommended reading: Cadillac Dessert: The American West and its Disappearing Water, by Marc Reisner. As a native of Los Angeles (don't blame me, I left there 40 years ago!) I know this as a prime example of corrupt politicians (an oxymoron?) stealing water to create a city that shouldn't exist except for the water. There's enough water to go around, but it's the distribution that's the problem. Now in Seattle we are in an official drought - Los Angeles has had more rain this year than Seattle! - so you can't take anything for granted.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 05:12 PM

Water management would help, but it must be on a regional, not local scale. Many of our large, deeper aquifers are being drained, with damage to the environment. Shallow reservoirs, which fed dug wells in the old days, are contaminated by pesticides, petroleum leakage, and other materials. Rivers here in western Canada can be sport-fished but the fish cannot be eaten (North Saskatchewan, Bow, and others) because of mercury, farm runoff, industrial and sewage pollutants. Large population centers such as Phoenix are a disaster in the arid southwest. Mankind is smart enough to survive, but the planet will not be neither healthy nor pleasant to live in.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM

Here in Ontario people are getting a little edgy about water quality since 7 people died from a strain of E. Coli that got into the water system an a place called Walkerton. We like to think that we're a developed country with modern qualities and a healthy water system. It doesn't hurt to question things now and again.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:19 PM

Ok, Don, I'm awake now. I was trying to avoid getting into this discussion, but since you dragged me into it, here's my response.

I don't take environmental advice from people who are in the process of killing themselves with excessive tobacco use and high cholesterol, low fiber diets. (You would call this a self correcting IQ test, I think.)

Carol


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:38 PM

Patty is right on, the problem with the water supply is that many farmers irrigate with water from underground aquifers that take centuries or more to fill up so when its gone it will take a long time to come back. In that situation they are not paying the actual cost. Also look at places where rivers have been diverted and overused upstream. (in Russia or the Rio Grande) . Canada has 1/4 of the worlds fresh water supply and even though water is not part of the free trade agreement there already is a company suing the Can. Govt for the right to export water.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:45 PM

Let's chop off coastal California (jiggle the San Andreas Fault a little) and raise up the remainder. Then the Colorado River will run west to east like it did originally, and El Nino will take care of us.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Peg
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:48 PM

I am thinking of the commercial on TV many years ago (early 80s maybe) in which a glass of water is shown while an African-British actor's cultured voice explains that certain percentages of the world;s water are in oceans, etc. and you watch as the level of water in the glass gets smaller and smaller and he finally says that only 1% of the world's water is drinkable...

then someone taps their cigarette ash into the glass...

and the actor says "Now isn't about time you got DAMNED mad at people who things like THAT?"

This was back in the days when public service announcements about the environment were much more common...


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: GUEST,1-16-1
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:04 PM

H2O, HDO, HTO, D2O, DTO, T2O.
Then we do the same replacing O16 with O18.
Then we make water dimers, trimers,...Xmers.

Lotta watta

Forget polywater; that turned out to be mostly perspiration.


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Subject: RE: Help: Is there only one Water?
From: Dani
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:42 AM

To bring this around: a song I love is Lorre Wyatt's "Somos el Barco". It talks about this very thing. It can sound a little corny, but basically says, "We are the boat, we are the sea."

I'll try to post it the right way, since I couldn't find it in the DT.

Dani


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