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American National Anthem

DigiTrad:
ANACREONTIC SONG (2)
THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER
TO ANACREON IN HEAVEN


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Sarah2 05 Mar 01 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Carol's Friend Don 05 Mar 01 - 03:05 PM
Lonesome EJ 05 Mar 01 - 03:03 PM
Sarah2 05 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Carol's Friend Don 05 Mar 01 - 02:35 PM
Fiolar 05 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM
Irish sergeant 05 Mar 01 - 01:05 PM
Greg F. 05 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM
The Dane 05 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM
mousethief 05 Mar 01 - 12:30 PM
mousethief 05 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM
Lonesome EJ 05 Mar 01 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Carol's Friend Don 05 Mar 01 - 11:49 AM
catspaw49 05 Mar 01 - 10:51 AM
Jeri 05 Mar 01 - 07:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 01 - 07:02 AM
Chanteyranger 05 Mar 01 - 01:58 AM
Joe Offer 05 Mar 01 - 12:22 AM
catspaw49 04 Mar 01 - 11:56 PM
Art Thieme 04 Mar 01 - 11:47 PM
InOBU 04 Mar 01 - 11:41 PM
Sarah2 04 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 01 - 10:37 PM
Joe Offer 04 Mar 01 - 10:21 PM
Jeri 04 Mar 01 - 09:52 PM
Sarah2 04 Mar 01 - 09:40 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Mar 01 - 07:23 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 04 Mar 01 - 06:53 PM
mkebenn 04 Mar 01 - 07:45 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 04 Mar 01 - 04:18 AM
TamthebamfraeScotland 04 Mar 01 - 04:10 AM
jofield 03 Mar 01 - 10:31 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 01 - 09:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM
guest(intruder-inactive) 03 Mar 01 - 08:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 01 - 08:40 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 01 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 03 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM
Allan C. 03 Mar 01 - 04:45 PM
Irish sergeant 03 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM
Joe Offer 03 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM
InOBU 03 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM
Amergin 03 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM
Lepus Rex 03 Mar 01 - 12:33 PM
Amergin 03 Mar 01 - 11:52 AM
Amergin 03 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM
The Crazy Bird 03 Mar 01 - 11:03 AM
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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:20 PM

That's okay, GUEST CFD, you can find a lot of digression above. I confess to being part of it: damned little of this thread has much to do with the original post! We've got several topics going and Art and Spaw striking in with the laughs now and then. Just like a mudcat party somewhere...politics, histories, music, general philosophy and an overall interesting thread.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:05 PM

NOTE to Greg F: Ref: the "Philippine Insurection". Noting your point about propaganda, I must point out that the insurrection had nothing to do with the Filipinos throwing off American rule. Far to the contrary, the Filipinos were, at that point, quite happy to be out from under Spains rule (Remember the Spanish-American War was only 12 years before). The Moslems wanted their own island nation and committed some Taliban type "inducements" (i.e. disemboweling infidels, which might be seen as "religious freedom" to some).

While this might seem like American Imperialism, which may have mattered to some of the Filipinos who actually knew we were there ( i.e. a backward island nation with no communication except poor roads and dugout canoes) the Japanese changed all that some 25 years later by disemboweling everybody. A good book on the American perspective of this is "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", (I don't remember the author) published in the 1950's. Those Filipinos who rejoiced at the defeat of the Americans at Corregidor, became part of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and didn't live long enough to regret it. But I digress...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:03 PM

McGrath- perhaps our difference on the "empire" question is primarily semantic. I associate the word with forcible conquest and annexation, as for example the Alexandrian and Roman Empires of ancient times, or the British Empire of late, and perhaps also the Third Reich. I also tend to think in terms of Monarchies or Dictatorships when the word "empire" comes up.

If you view an Empire as a large nation-state with world balance-of-power overtones, I might agree that the US is one. Brazil might be stretching it. Personally, I think there should be a better term to describe Super States (and no, I don't like that one either) in the 21st Century that isn't quite so redolent of colonialism and conquest.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM

Greg,

Yes, I live in Texas now. It's history is fascinating, and much more complex than you seem to understand. I'm only saying that to sweepingly lump the "acquisition" of Texas with the Mexican War is off. In fact, it's sort of looking at it backwards. Texas rebelled in 1835-1836, joined the U.S. in 1845 from the status of a free Republic, and the Mexican war was begun and ended in 1846. Texas, then a state, had a lot to do with the U.S. engaging in that war, of course: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna kept sending troops north of the Rio Grande. The U.S., having accepted Texas into the union, was bound to defend its borders. If the Mexican War was a war of imperialism, then why isn't Mexico a part of the United States? Hell, they took Mexico City.

Texas history is something I'm still studying, as it is all around me, in museums and libraries and private collections. What one gets in the schools is the bare bones of history, no matter the subject -- and it's not always so very accurate in its assessment of the motives behind events. Sure, slave ownership was probably one of the "economic issues," but there were more, many more Mexican-owned slaves than Anglo-owned. Like much of the U.S., Texas was initially sought out for "a new start" by people who weren't "making it" back in their home states from the Anglo point of view. The entire Anglo population of Texas at the time of its rebellion was under 35,000 -- and there were a LOT of women and children in that number. The fact that Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had overthrown the legitimate Mexican government and established a dictatorship in Mexico would have had more to do with armed rebellion than an issue that might have otherwise been solved in the Mexican courts and legislature.

As for my being patronizing, sorry if you feel that way. I thought we were just trying to thrash out some facts, and I suppose that living next door to another American country makes me more sensitive on a daily basis to their feelings on the matter than others may be.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM

By this logic, Canada, Brazil and Australia are also Empires, since the territory of their countries consists of land annexed from indigenous peoples.

I'd see no reason not to call them empires as well. The word empire doesn't in itself imply tyranny or genocide etc, any more than it implies benignity - the word just means a set up where a central government holds together an assembly of disparate states. For example, the United States.

I still find it strange that Americans seem so sensitive about this kind of stuff. It's like those stories about elephants being frightened by mice. A standing invitation to any mouse who's feeling a bit low to say "I know, I'll go out and frighten an elephant, that always cheers me up." (And please note I'm not recommending that any mice do that - it's both dangerous and unkind.)

Drop the Star Spangled Banner because it's too difficult to sing, in favour of America the Beautiful? I'd call that dumbing down. Better to learn to sing it properly. I suppose the French could drop the Marseilleise and sing Frere Jacques instead. But they won't. (If you can't hit the high notes in a song, simple enough, just sing them low instead.)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:35 PM


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

Several years ago I used to pass a house on my way to work which had painted on the gable "Yanks Go Home." I used to wonder what kind of a pathetic idiot would do such a thing. However when the "Yanks" finally did go home there was much "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as the local economy took a nosedive and many houses were left empty and tradesmen saw their profits drop.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:05 PM

Tom: Please do not think that I was implying you don't have the right to your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thank you for your apology. I'll be the first to admit that my country has it share of problems. I wanted a level playing field. This discussion is about a song. It happens to be our national anthem and it speaks to what every citizen of the United States (Nortes to our Hispanic citizens of the Western Hemisphere)hopes this country will be. We are a young country as nations go, so if we seem like brash upstarts, maybe we are. But there is also a generosity in my people that cannot be denied. -The American people spent their tax dollars to help rebuild Europe and Asia after the second world war. Not just to benefit our allies but our former foes as well. -When the puppet governments of Romainia, Croatia etc. declared war on the U.S. in that conflict, the U.S. ignored them. -American dollars and volunteers can be found helping out at most if not all natural disasters that occur. -We still remain a haven albeit an imperfect one for refugees from throughout the world. Our borders are the easiest in the world to access of any. By the way, Scotland is considered a nation. The Scots have their own parliament and judicial system even if they don't have a seat in the United Nations. To explain my position, Tom, I took offense at the remarks about the land of the brave. I have lost friends in Vietnam, Greneda, Lebenon and the Persian Gulf. I have had relatives fight in World War s One and two, Korea, Vietnam, during the Cuban Missle crisis, and I myself was in the Gulf War. Again, I accept your apology and I thank you for it. My choice would be America the Beautiful if the government ever decides to change the anthem. Kindest reguards to all of you, Neil


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

Well, Sarah, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this 'un. You must have studied a different version of history than I did- you wouldn't be a Texan by any chance, would you?  :-)  Think its safe to say that slavery was an "economic reason"-no? What's styled "propaganda" often depends on which side of the issue you find yourself .As an example, the "Phillipine Insurection" mentioned above was an effort by the Filipinos to repulse American invasion and colonization of the islands.

And please climb down from the the patronizing "Norte-Americanos" bit. I'm on your side, and that battle has already been fought several times in this forum.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: The Dane
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM

As I see it, America is the combination of the best and the worst. I used to hate the place years back - thought Americans were all stupid, ignorant hillbillies. Then I met some... they turnes out to be the greatest people on earth... met some other Americans - total ass holes...

But anyway, I wen't to the States - although I promissed myself I would never go – and this is what i found: It's a place of opportunity and wealth - for some people anyway - and a place of poverty...both literaly and intelectually. And I could go on and on... But what I mean is: Don't slag off the States and don't make it look like paradise on earth. It's neither of those. As is the case for most places, the truth about America is more complex than that!

Jacob


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:30 PM

Oh. Sorry. I said Scotland was a nation. It's not. My apologies.

Alex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM

I always love it when people from Europe start USA-bashing. Um, who do you think white U.S.Americans ARE, you noodle-heads? They're children of YOUR great-grandparents, who came here because they wanted to get away from you jerks who stayed behind (whether out of cowardice or because you were the ones in control and making life miserable for them, or some other reason).

The US&A has its problems, and has had them. But let's look at our so-called "empire." Of all the wars we've fought in the last 100 years, how many have been wars of expansion? Phillipines -- independent. Cuba -- independent. Mexico -- independent. Germany and all of western Europe -- independent. Japan -- independent. This is hardly imperialist expansion.

I'll be the first to admit what we did to the aboriginal North Americans ("Indians" and "Eskimos") was abhorrent, and we owe them a hell of a lot in repayment for it. (Don't tell my Republican friends; they think there's nothing to do with the budget surplus but give it to the rich.)

However, leaving that aside (for the moment), our relations (as a nation) with other peoples have NOT been expansionistic. (Admittedly some major corporations have done horrid things in the middle Americas to keep the cash flow going, and I abhor what the government has done to back them!)

In short, we Americans know we have problems, and get mighty pissed off when people from some third-world nation like Scotland start telling us we're the Evil Empire incarnate.

We sing "the land of the free and the home of the brave" because that's what we ASPIRE to be. Maybe we aren't there yet. But we want to be, and will keep working on it (current resident of oval office notwithstanding).

Alex.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:23 PM

"Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies."

Then how come the United States stretches across a whole annexed continent? The fact that the occupied teritory was contiguous rather than scattered around the place shouldn't disguise the fact that the United States is essentially an Empire. After all, the same could be said of most Empires - Roman, Chinese, Russian, Austrian...

By this logic, Canada, Brazil and Australia are also Empires, since the territory of their countries consists of land annexed from indigenous peoples.

Fact is, the annexation of North American land in the 18th and 19th Centuries represented competition between the newly-created United States and the colonial powers such as England, France, Spain and Russia who all held land in what is now the US. Whether or not these powers had legitimate claims to the territory held is another question entirely.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:49 AM

As for anthems at sporting events, why don't we do something that reflects history, and have the American National Anthem sung by the winners, and the International sung by the losers...

NOTE to McGrath of Harlow: guest(intruder)'s comment about "moros" was, in his own e. e. cummings style, a reference to the Philippine Insurrection in the early 1900's in which the American Army was bailed out yet again by the Marine Corps. It was an epecially bloody affair with the Corps adopting the .45 automatic pistol to stop the charging (and doped-up) mystic/moslem warriors. The Corps also adopted the Sidler bayonet fighting tactics, which are still different than the Army's and are better suited to close-in fighting. On Marine Corps Mess Nights, the phrase "Stand, he served at Samar" was invoked to the assembledge for any Marine who fought in that conflict. (Samar is an island in the Phillipines).


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:51 AM

Very well put Jeri. Your argument on the song is persuasive too........but I can't make "Play Ball" fit as the actual last two words of "A the B" as well as I can with the Bananer. Maybe its just I haven't tried it enough............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:52 AM

McGrath, I don't know what the big, powerful nation feels. I, as an individual, don't much like it when anyone says "you all." I don't think it's right in any context. Once more time: it's not the comments about my country that annoy me. It's the stereotyping as an excuse to bash. It's a verbal form of beating, instead of a discussion, and I would have hoped that folks here would be more interested in discussing. Given half a chance, we Americans can write a full report of everything our nation has done wrong. It starts with ancestors coming here from places where "you all" was a good enough excuse to start a war or demolish a race. It reflects the way the world worked, not some isolated pocket of tyranny. Does anyone who is a citizen of somewhere other than the US believe if their ancestors had emmigrated here, they would have done things differently? Could they have altered things if they'd wanted to? How do you know our individual ancestors didn't try?

On the anthem - it's hard to sing, and I'm not crazy about the words being an ode to a symbol surviving a battle. I like the ideas behind America the Beautiful better - the people and the land, not the flag managing to last through a battle. It's also a lot more singable. Of course, we wouldn't be able to make bets at sporting events as to whether the singer will manage to hit the high parts...

Art...ugh. UGH, UGH, UGH! (applause.)


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:02 AM

Difficult awkward melody? I wouldn't think it's any more so than the Marseillaise, the Soldiers Song, the Internationale, any decent anthem... You've got a good tune, with words that are in fact anti-imperialist. I gather it gets wrecked by incompetent show-offs hired at public events in America, presumably because they don't want the crowd to sing the words. But those bastards would wreck anything, as,long as you let them get away with it.

If I were American, that's the kind of thing that would annoy me, not people making comments about aspects of my country's history and present state. There sometimes seems to be an awful lot of insecurity and heightened sensitivity around. It might make sense in some small fragile nation that's been ground down by oppression and poverty, but it really seems strange in citizens of what is at this point the most powerful human collective the world has ever known.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:58 AM

My major argument with out national anthem is the difficult, awkward melody. Put me in the America The Beautiful camp - beautiful melody, beautiful, poetic lyrics. As for the anti-American flame, without repeating much that's been said, or going into a detailed rebuttal of my own, my message to ur critic here is that one of the strengths of my country's democracy is that it is always evolving and self-correcting. It's more than a set of rules with underlying values, it's a process and a way of life, and a mechanism by which change can be made. For every injustice, there's an ACLU case, for every national policy, a non-governmental organization working to become majority opinion and effect change. This is not just a record of lone voices in the woods. What was once minority opinion has often become majority, and I believe this country has, all in all, been in many cases a force for good, and not by any means all evil. Of course there have been, are, and will be injustices perpetrated by individuals, groups, and at the local, state, and national levels. But again, this country has a powerful process of self-correction, and a process by which competing ideas and values can be worked out, whether in the courts, the legislatuive bodies, or in the streets. It, of course, cannot be taken for granted, and, as any civil liberties activist will tell you, takes constant vigilance.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:22 AM

Art, I don't know how you do it....

I laughed so loud, I think I scared the neighbors.

-Joe Offer, in awe-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 11:56 PM

........ohmygawd........................Art, I'm speechless!!!!!!! Not only is that one TOP NOTCH, but I don'r recall you using it before!! A "DOUBLE WHAMMY" so to speak..........BRAVO~~~BRAVO~~~~~

Spaw


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 11:47 PM

And it was Leo Kottke's brother, Francis, who wrote the Star Spangled Banner.

Art


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 11:41 PM

Gee, Joe: As a fellow red, see what all we'd avoid if we adopted the International for an anthem? It could be like Bush being forgiven his past by going on the waggon and finding God! ;-)
Well, fellow travellers...
All the best,
Larry


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM

Sorry, Greg, but, as I mentioned above, most of the people who sought independence from Mexico in Texas did so for economic reasons, and they were of Mexican descent, the large landowners. The "American Colonization" myth was mostly propaganda from Mexico. (By the way, Mexicans consider themselves Americans, as do citizens of South America...If you're ever carrying on a discussion with one of them, suggest you not refer to the U.S. as America.) Sure, some Anglos had settled here, but they were hardly in a position to start a war without the wholehearted support of the Spanish speaking majority. Texas became a Republic for a number of reasons, but some devious U.S. expansion plan out of Washington wasn't one of them. Texas was a Republic for only nine years, it's true, but that's because she jumped at the chance to be a state, not because she was dependent on the U.S. Texians just knew a good thing when they saw it...

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 10:37 PM

Wasn't Texas a Mexican province settled by colonizing Americans under concessions granted by the Mexican government? It was after the Mexican Congress in 1830 passed a law prohibiting slavery and the further settlement by American citzens that the American colonists denied the authority of the Mexican government and decided to secede and establish this 'independent republic'. Texas may not have been initially annexed by the American government, but it most cetainly was, at the point of a gun, by Americans

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 10:21 PM

You know, it's not the comments against America that bother me - it's lumping everybody together and claiming they're all the same, and that they're all evil. It's the basis of every kind of racism and nationalism and jingoism and all those other "isms." If you want to class all Russians together or all Africans or all Europeans or all Jews or all Catholics together and then demonize them, I'd be every bit as offended.

I am not Bill Clinton. I am not George W. Bush. I am Joe Offer, and I'm a pretty nice guy - even if happen to be an American. Oh, and I happen to be a pacifist and a democratic socialist. Does that fit your American stereotype?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 09:52 PM

Busbiter, it's not what you've said about America. It's what you've said about Americans - every last one of us. You have to be completely clueless or looking for a flame war to lump every one of us together to blame us for things beyond our control. If you want to hang onto your prejudices in order to feel superior, fine. Just don't expect us targets to quietly put up with them.

You started this with flame bait, and a flame war is exactly what you expected to get. I don't believe you're so ignorant as to believe you wouldn't hurt some people who might have thought you were a friend.

This is nothing more than the "I'm better than you are" game, and if anyone wants to play it yet another time, go ahead. Realize though, that no one's going to win.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Sarah2
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 09:40 PM

ASIDE...

Er, sorry, Greg, but you'll have to leave Texas out of that equation. Texas was an independent Republic at the time of its annexation to the United States, and sought statehood on its own. (Nor would it be correct or fair to use the names of Houston, Travis, Crockett and the like as being the movers and shakers behind Texas' war for independence from Mexico. Most of the men who died defending the Alamo had surnames of Fuentes, Gierro, Barziza, etc.)

Sarah


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM

Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies.

Um...there was this little thing called the Annexation of Texas & California & the Mexican War. Then there were several invasions of Nicaragua. I seem to recall something about a Spanish American War invlving Cuba & the Phillipines.....& etc & etc & etc.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 07:23 PM

"Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies."

Then how come the United States stretches across a whole annexed continent? The fact that the occupied teritory was contiguous rather than scattered around the place shouldn't disguise the fact that the United States is essentially an Empire. After all, the same could be said of most Empires - Roman, Chinese, Russian, Austrian...


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 06:53 PM

I know that I said that I wouldn't be sending any more messages on this subject, however when you sing the part of The land of the brave and the land of the free. What about the McCarthy era in the 1950's or the civil right movement in the 1960's.

Any way that's just me and if you don't like what I've said about America I'm SORRY.

Tom Hamilton


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: mkebenn
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 07:45 AM

Nice for the most part, Lonesome, but as to that "annex our enemies" part, the Seneca and Onieda here in western New York, the Cherokee to the south, and the many Great Plains Tribes to the west may have a different viewpoint. Mike


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 04:18 AM

Thank you Neil for putting me in my place, I'M SORRY for all that I said about America and you lot of Americans who are love your country and who don't like people like me who tell some home truths, as they say the truth hurts, and some people like to turn a blind to it all. However like myself, we all need a kick up the arse now and again to remind ourselves what our own history of our own country was like. I hope this all makes sense to you all. After all that I've started on mud cat I will not sending anymore messages on this thread, but I'll just check up on it from time to time. Tom Hamilton


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 04:10 AM

Thank you Neil and Everybody who says that I get natsy on Mud cat. I'm sorry for some of the things I said about America, not all of them. I don't mean to get natsy on the mud cat, but are we not allowed to voice our opinions.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: jofield
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 10:31 PM

OK, back to the subject at hand: "America the Beautiful" would certainly be a much better choice for a national anthem, but the right-wingers, without whose approval nothing will be changed, are probably suspicious of that word "brotherhood" -- smacks of what I would call civil rights and they would call Federal intervention in their right to discriminate as they please. (After all, if we have "brotherhood" in the national song, what's next? Voting in one's own economic self-interest? Eeew...bad for Republicans. It's so much easier to corral white southern votes when you have that good ol' subtext of race.) So "America the Beautiful" will have to wait a long time. Meanwhile we have "The SSB", which ain't a half-bad tune, when it's performed right, which it seldom is. The tune was originally a drinking song, and should be sung at the flowing rhythm of swinging grog mugs, but it never is. At all American mega-events, it is used as a "never-mind- this-dumb-song, look-at-ME-ME-ME!" vehicle (i.e., the Mariah Carey school of voice).
Matt Groenig and the Simpsons gang had the final word when they showed some brainless singer starting the Anthem at a big sporting event; cut to a clock, dissolve to the end of the song, 7 minutes have passed, and the singer is still vamping on the last three words. How true. How awful.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:23 PM

Well, actually, intruder there's a lot more to it than the triumph of white-european descended males. America is the greatest collection of polyglot races and nationalities since the beginning of time. In many ways that has been the greatest hurdle to overcome, but ultimately it has been our greatest strength.

AS for creating a system where changes are wrought through compromise and logic rather than brute force, many aboriginal peoples were able to achieve peaceful co-operation through understanding. And Europe has proven again and again that it is more than willing to entertain wholesale slaughter of its people in order for one State or another to seek supremacy. Our country was drawn into at least two of those wars.

I would take strong issue with McGrath's comparison to Rome and other swaggering imperial powers. Never have we sought annexation of our allies, nor even of our enemies. We have often acted in self-interest, but most often with the support and aid of countries like Great Britain, France, Australia and Japan who share our belief in the republican form of government and, yes, our economic system. Our greatest transgressions occurred during the Cold War, when we supported fascist strong-men in third world countries throughout the world. The United States in the 90s and in the new millenium seems destined (cursed?) to be the World's arbiter and police force in such areas as Bosnia/Herzogovia, where the options seemed to be 1)Stand and watch genocide take place or 2)Act against the repressors and for the repressed, according to our best understanding of the situation.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM

Picking out one country or another as big baddy is a waste of energy, because everyone takes turns at it, one way and another. But the idea of democracy goes back a long way, in many parts of the world. Not that it has ever reliably prevented wholesale slaughter, any more than it did in America.

"the moros" ?


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: guest(intruder-inactive)
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:55 PM

hey!

i'm an american, a veteran and i know we slaughtered the moros in their thousands...

but, yanno, i'm fed up with being the designated creator of all that's unholy

i.e. a white european-descended male

shall we take a minute to discuss mongolian warcraft?
chinese foot binding
clitdorectomies in mother africa?

white european-descended males invented something no one ever thought of...
a system where you can make changes WITHOUT wholesale slaughter
so ::stands up and starts singing::
god bless america, land that i love
stand beside her and guide her, through the night with the light from above
from the mountains, to the prairies, to the oceans, white with foam
god bless america
my home sweet home

america, love it and make it better!!!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:40 PM

The USA of 1814 is a small country in a war with a great power that has recently occupied and largely demolished its capital city, stuck on the edge of a continent that hasn't been incorporated into a new Empire, where the first American nations were still mostly free. The America of this song is an underdog nation, struggling gamely to survive.

That's what is attractive about the song. Now it gets seen through the distorting lense of a history which has turned that vulnerable little country into an imperial superpower, with the propensity for swaggering arrogance that all imperial superpowers from Rome on tend to adopt. Sung in the right spirit it doesn't have to be an expression of that arrogance, but a reminder of what could have been, and maybe still could be.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:18 PM

"Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" refers primarily to the people who came here fleeing religious, political, and economic persecution from places like Ireland, England, Poland, Russia, Sweden and Italy, (or in my family's case the Highland Clearances) who were brave enough to leave their homes and families and finally realized the meaning of freedom and opportunity in this country. It is also a tribute to the concept of democracy and political equality unknown in the world at the time of this country's establishment, but one which quickly took hold throughout Europe. It is not a statement of perfection, or even the aspiration to perfection. It is not an excuse for our wrongs. And it is sure as hell no reason for an apology.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM

The history of the tune is far from clear. I would reccommend you read Oscar Sonneck's 'The Star Spangled Banner', Library of Congress, 1914. (A facsimile of Key's autograph of the song is included).
I found a copy a few years ago in a used book store. If you can't find it, you might enquire at the Sonneck Society's website.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

"Land of the free and home of the brave" - surely that refers to native Americans, and represents an aspiration for what, in 1814, America still could have become?


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Subject: ADD: Don't Put It Down (from Hair)
From: Allan C.
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 04:45 PM

I would have to vote for something more along the lines of this.
    Text below added by Joe Offer
http://web.archive.org/web/20010424223130/http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/1080/b-dont-put-it-down.html
 
DON'T PUT IT DOWN (from Hair

Om mane padme om
Om mane padme om....

Folding the flag means taking care of the nation. Folding the flag is putting it to bed for the night. I fell through a hole in the flag.
I'm falling through a hole in the flag! HELP!!

Eb F7 Bb
Don't put it down, best one around.

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the red, blue and white.

Cm F7 Bb Eb
Crazy for the red, blue and white.

F7 Bb
You look at me, what do you see?

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the white, red and blue.

Cm F7 Bb Eb
Crazy for the white, red and blue.

F7 Bb
'Cause I look different you think I'm subversive.

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the blue, white and red.

Cm F7 Bb Eb
Crazy for the blue, white and red.

F7 Bb
My heart beats true for the red, white and blue.

F Eb Dm Gm
Crazy for the blue, white and red.

Cm F7 Bb Eb Bb Bdim
Crazy for the blue, white and red and yellow fringe.

F Eb Bb
Crazy for the blue, white, red and yellow.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM

Busbitter; The last part of your "handle" is telling. I'm of Scottish ancestry on my father's side and Irish on my mothers but that is neither here nor there I state that only so you'll know I'm no raving anti-brit or scot or what ever. Since we're on the subject of American foibles You make a valid case that we as a nation have done some terrible things. No American will deny that but let's look at the record of some of the things that were done by various other groups

-The Glencoe massacre. Ask the MacDonald clan who was responsible for that little social event.

-You state that we (America) was three years late entering WW1 and two years late entering WW2. No argument. World War one was a result of European posturing. America was drawn in by several factors. The European portion of World war Two was due to failure by the European victors to make a just peace with Germany, failure to stop Hitler when he went into the Saarland( Had France and the United Kingdom stood firm then, Hitler would have had to back down and his credibility ruined.) Ask Czechoslovakia who they feel is responsible for World War Two. Can we say Munich? Also, you state we were two years late joining Britain in fighting Hitler. I suggest you read up on your naval history and see how many American sailors died to ship provisions to the U.K. in official violation of the Neutrality Act to provide weaponry and food stuffs to the U.K. I might also mention the LaFayette Escadrille in World War One, The RAF Eagle Squadrons and the men who joined were not named such as George Harsh who soldiered behind the wire in Stalag Luft III after being shot down in His Majesty's service.

- No-one in this country (America) will deny we lost Vietnam. It was the wrong war, it should have never been fought. Even Douglas MacArthur agreed on that score.

-I'd be really interested on your opinion about the Falklands War. The Royal Navy used American ports to resupply.

I don't come to Mudcat to get ugly with people although apparently, you do. We sing the land of the free and the home of the brave because it is true. And yes, we don't always get it right. But read up on the Statuates of Killkenny or what the victor (Great Britain) imposed on Scotland after Culloden. Bravery doesn't always come from nobility and America doesn't own exclusive title to heinous acts. Remember it was Scottish nobles that sold William Wallace out to Edward Longshanks. The old adage from the Bible still holds true. Judge not lest you be judged.

Please do not take this as a personal attack on yourself. I don't know you. The fact is that you are probably a nice person. I felt I had to respond to you scurrilous and ignorant comments about my country. I will be more than glad to offer a hand of friendship to you and anyone else provided that they have an open mind. Kindest reguards and apologies for my rant, Neil


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM

I've always thought America the Beautiful would be a better choice for a national anthem, although I suppose I have to admit that "Star-Spangled Banner" works pretty well for sporting events and military things, if those things are one's preference (they ain't mine).

There certainly is great natural beauty in the U.S. - I don't think the staunchest anti-American would argue against that. And I suppose it's also true that Americans have done much to spoil the beauty of their country and deplete its resources. There is also an idealism in the national spirit that is quite remarkable. I'm afraid that idealism can lead to an arrogance that makes us very inept at international relations.

We Americans have many things to be proud of, and many things to be ashamed of. We're an interesting mix of good and bad, just like every other country. If you want to blast Americans, you've come to the wrong place. Most American Mudcatters have a rather realistic view of their country, and are quite aware of both the good and the bad aspects of the U.S.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

Well, as long as we are voting for a new national anthem... How bout the International?
Need I say... you all know it is from, Yours - very red and truly,
Larry
PS Maybe a highbrid between the origional and the Billy Bragg version - I am not as found of the Unites the world in song, line, I prefer, the International Working Class, shall be the human race. Has a sort of nice ring to it. No passaran! Salude!


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM

Oh ok...maybe Busbiter is just off today because his pint costs a penny more than it used to....


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 12:33 PM

"Without us, you'd all be speaking German!" ---Otto, "A Fish Called Wanda"

Busbitter's from Scotland, home to black people with British surnames... How'd they get those again? ;)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 11:52 AM

Oh and Busbiter, in World War 1, we should not have gotten involved with that family squabble at all. The only reason we did was because the Bossmen wanted in. In WW2, our government wanted an incident to happen to justify our presence in that war. So they permitted Pearl Harbour.

Besides there have been many many very courageous souls on this side of the pond, just as in any other country. The ones that history can name are but a few: Mother Jones, Harriet Tubman, Frank Little, and Pete Seeger are just a few names....So that part is right.

Now about the free....I figure we are freer than some parts of the world and yes there are many cases in which we can gain more and those details have been in the process of being ironed out since the day Jefferson and friends signed the Declaration of Independance.

I suggest though that before you just go ahead and piss on somebody else's country, you should piss on your own.

Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM

BusBitter, where are you from? I for one do not think proudly of our nation's history of slavery and such, but I am damn sure I can point out some of the flaws in your own country. The US did not invent slavery. That was an idea thousands of years old when the Greeks first thought of it.


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Subject: RE: American National Anthem
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 11:03 AM

My comment is a snippet from a poem/rant in progress.

I am an American,
        and proud of it!
At the same time,
        I am filled with deep shame...

My ancestors?

Some came over on the Mayflower,
        others huddled together on the bottom of not so famous boats.
One was a draft dodger during the civil war,
        another helped hang a man in the wild west a few years before
One owned half of what now is Chicago,
        most of them have been working class poor.

I am an American,
        and proud of it!

When I see our Flag defiled,
        burnt or spat upon,
as is it is with all of us,
                I feel great pain...

And yet, sometimes,
        I am filled with deep shame...
learning of things
        done in our country's name...

In other words, the home-of-the-brave-land-of-the-free bit, is, at worst, a dream, at best, something to be confirmed in each generation...

rgrds CrzyBrd


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