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Scots Dialect Q's

Bo 24 Oct 97 - 01:31 AM
Murray 24 Oct 97 - 03:42 AM
Bo 25 Oct 97 - 08:13 PM
BK 26 Oct 97 - 12:07 AM
Murray 26 Oct 97 - 05:34 PM
Jon W. 27 Oct 97 - 11:30 AM
Ian 27 Oct 97 - 12:44 PM
Murray 30 Oct 97 - 04:30 AM
Jon W. 30 Oct 97 - 11:48 AM
Murray 31 Oct 97 - 01:30 AM
GUEST,C Dye 17 Aug 00 - 10:42 AM
little john cameron 17 Aug 00 - 11:05 AM
Naemanson 17 Aug 00 - 11:58 AM
Naemanson 17 Aug 00 - 12:00 PM
little john cameron 17 Aug 00 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,C Dye 17 Aug 00 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,C Dye 17 Aug 00 - 12:23 PM
Cobble 17 Aug 00 - 12:32 PM
rabbitrunning 21 Aug 00 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Louise Franklin 19 Feb 07 - 02:16 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Feb 07 - 02:21 PM
dick greenhaus 19 Feb 07 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Fraochainn Dubh 19 Feb 07 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Kieran Campbell, Glasgow 10 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Wullie 10 Apr 07 - 05:15 PM
Hillheader 10 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM
GUEST 10 Apr 07 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM
Hillheader 11 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Wullie 11 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM
Abby Sale 11 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM
Hillheader 12 Apr 07 - 02:18 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Apr 07 - 01:05 PM
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Subject: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Bo
Date: 24 Oct 97 - 01:31 AM

There's a truly great song in the Data Base called "Battle of Sherra-Moor", it's also (some would say more often) called 'Sherramuir'.

I love the version the Corries do of it called 'The Sherramuir Fight'.

Problem is I wonder what some of the words mean.

eg:

'I saw the battle, sair and teugh (sair and teugh = sour and tough???) And reekin-red ran monia a sheugh; (sheugh = ???)

"Wha glaum'd at kingdoms three, man. (glaum'd ???)

(philibegs???)

skyrin tartan trews (skyrin???)

And many a bouk did fa', man! (bouk????)

If anyone can fill in any of the gaps I'd appreciate it.

Bo


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Murray
Date: 24 Oct 97 - 03:42 AM

Rough glossary: sair-sore/teugh-tough/reekin-red-smoking red [i.e. with blood]/ mony a sheugh-many a ditch/ cluds-clouds/ glaumed-grabbed/ cockauds-cockades, or cockards, little badges worn in the hat; black, means the Hanoverians/ slaw-slow/bouk-body/hough'd- slashed at the hams to disable [!!]/ kyles-skittles/fey-doomed philibegs-kilts/ skyrin-shining, i.e. brightly coloured/ trews-trousers/ baiginets-bayonets/targe-(Highland) shield/ dows-doves/ swarf-swoon, faint/ crowdie-raw porridge [she's bringing his breakfast]/ cogs-bowls/ brose-real porridge (oatmeal +hot water+ salt etc.)/-- that should do it. Cheers Murray


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Bo
Date: 25 Oct 97 - 08:13 PM

Swiftly and masterfully done sir!

Thanx

bo


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: BK
Date: 26 Oct 97 - 12:07 AM

Murray: Fantastic!! Could you do a similar translation for "twa recruitin' sairgents?" I'm sure its likely in the data base. Super song, but who understands much of the words?

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Murray
Date: 26 Oct 97 - 05:34 PM

It is in the DT, filename TWAREDCRU. A couple of expressions are glossed there, and other that may puzzle are: fleg - take fright/ owsen - oxen/ -- I don't see anything else. By the way, the word "ole" in stanzas 2 & 4 has to be a misprint for "old", though Jeannie Robertson, like everyone else, sings "auld". It's a great song, I agree.Cheers Murray


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Oct 97 - 11:30 AM

Make that file name TWARECRU, Murray.

A couple more items: The Black Watch was (is?) an elite unit, the Forty Twa (or forty and twa) more common. This song reminds me of the TV ads recruiting folks to the US Army - they use a lot of the same arguments in a modern setting.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Ian
Date: 27 Oct 97 - 12:44 PM

Jon - I don't understand your comment about the Forty Twa - surely the sargeants just got 42 recruits. Of course, the Black Watch is the 42nd regiment as remembered in the other song: Wha saw the forty second ?
Wha saw them rin awa' ?
Wha saw the forty second?
Ower the heid o' Broomie Law

- generally heard sung by regiments other than the Black Watch!


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Murray
Date: 30 Oct 97 - 04:30 AM

The sgts got 42 recruits, but I think it's just a kind of a pun on the number of the regiment. Ian's verse has several versions, e.g. Wha saw the forty-second,/ Wha saw them gang awa',/ Wha saw the forty-second,/ Mairchin' doon the Broomielaw. / Some o' them had buits an' stockins,/ some o' them had nane at a',/ Some o' them had umberellas [4 syllables!]/ Mairchin' doon the Broomielaw.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Jon W.
Date: 30 Oct 97 - 11:48 AM

I stand corrected - I take most of my knowledge of this stuff from the songs I hear, and I sometimes assume too much. What are the complete lyrics to the song about the Broomielaw?


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Murray
Date: 31 Oct 97 - 01:30 AM

Look up the DT, filename MARCH42--I've got 4 or 5 versions there, and Dick added another.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,C Dye
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 10:42 AM

I know this is an old thread, but I was looking up a song I knew as a kid, and you haven't got the version I know. Or the tune. But I learned March42 like this:

Warsaw the forty second
Warsaw gone to war
Warsaw the forty second
Marching through the brambles raw

Zoomde men got boots and stockings
Zoomde men got nain at a'
Zoomde men got boots and stockings
Marching through the brambles raw

My girl scout troop sang it as an eight part round, holding the "raw"s for eight counts to make the bagpipe drone under the melody.

(And my sister learned it "zoomdelady boots and stockings" just a couple of years before I did. Colorado, approx. 1968)


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 11:05 AM

Ah wid say this is an example o misheard lyrics.This is common with bairns an when listenin tae Bob Dylan. LJC


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 11:58 AM

Thread Creep!!

As regards the Black Watch here is a true story: My father used to work as an immigration inspector on the border between the US and Canada. On day a bus containing a contingent of the Black Watch pipe band pulls up to the station. My father checks their paper work after which the following conversation sesued:

Father (thoughtfully): I don't know if it is such a good idea to let you people into the US.
Lieutenant (puzzled): Why not?
Father: The last time we had nothing but trouble and it took a tremendous effort to get you out of here.
Lieutenant (Outraged): I need details so I can report this back to headquarters! When was this?
Father: 1776

Brett (withapologiestoourbritishsibling.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:00 PM

Before our Scots siblings take me to task for my last post I would like to point out we revolted against England, not Scotland!


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: little john cameron
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:16 PM

Wan thing aboot us Naemanson,we can take a joke.Naeborra.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,C Dye
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:23 PM

One of my scouting friends also said the lyrics were misheard, but she thought the original was:

We all saw the forty second
We all saw them going to war
we all saw the forty second
marching through the brambles raw.
Some of the men had boots and stockings
Some of the men had none at all
Some of the men had boots and stockings
Marching through the brambles raw.

The song fascinated me because of the thought of all those poor guys trying to march in thorn bushes!


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,C Dye
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:23 PM

One of my scouting friends also said the lyrics were misheard, but she thought the original was:

We all saw the forty second
We all saw them going to war
we all saw the forty second
marching through the brambles raw.
Some of the men had boots and stockings
Some of the men had none at all
Some of the men had boots and stockings
Marching through the brambles raw.

The song fascinated me because of the thought of all those poor guys trying to march in thorn bushes!


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Cobble
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:32 PM

I though the Black Watch was a night shift down a coal mine. Brian


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 07:32 PM

Whoo hoo! It wasn't me that misheard the lyrics! I just found a ditto sheet from GS camp that has it the way I learned it.

(though, to tell the truth, I think misheard lyrics are at least one of the major reasons that there _are_ folksongs...)


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,Louise Franklin
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:16 PM

In a book I read about the Black Watch (it was a fictional tale of a soldier,) was a verse along the lines of "Here comes the 42nd here comes the soldiers braw, there goes the 42nd, marching thru the bloody snaw."   Also, in the movie "The Great Escape" with Richard Attenborough, Steve McQueen and David McCallum (among many others) there is a scene in which Ronnie Corbett and Charles Bronson sing a verses in which the 42nd is "sailling doon the runny maw" Or something like that. I would love to know all the verses.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:21 PM

Wha saw the 42nd?
Wha saw then gae'n awa?
Wha saw the 42nd?
Sailin' doon the Broomielaw

Is what you heard.
The Broomielaw is/was a quay in Glasgow from which many ships sailed. When I was lad, there used to be regular service from there to Belfast and back.

Giok


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:25 PM

And I encountered:

Wha saw past the 42nd
Wha saw the Forty Twa
Wha saw the bare arsed bastards
Comin' from Ashanti war.

Some of 'em had hieland bonnets
Some of 'em had nane at a'
Some had trews and others hadna
They were Hieland Johnnies raw..


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,Fraochainn Dubh
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:29 PM

Some o' thaim had tartan breeches,
Some o' thaim had nane ava'
Some o' thaim had Kilty cauld-bums,
Sailin' doun the Broomielaw


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,Kieran Campbell, Glasgow
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM

Over the years i have heard various different words sung to the tune we all know and recognise. But as i understand it the "correct" words before the Broomielaw/ Kilts/ Cold bums/ Brambles(!) etc came into it was from a version entitled "Wha Wad Nae Fecht For Charlie"- a call to arms during the last Jacobite rebellion which begun on the 19th of August 1745.

"Wha Wad Nae Fecht For Charlie"

Chorus:
Wha wad nae fecht for Charlie
Wha wadnae dra' a sword
Wha wadnae up and rally
At the royal prince's word.

1. Think of Scotia's ancient heroes
Think of foreign foes we felled
Think of loyal Bruce and Wallace
All the soldiers who fought well.

Chorus:

2. See the northern clans advancing
See Glengarry and Lochiel
See the brandished broad swords glancing
Highland hearts as true as steel.

Chorus:

3. Now the prince has raised his banner
Now triumphant this our cause
Now the Scottish lion rallies
Let us strike for Prince and laws

Chorus:


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM

There was an older song, "Who will go and marry Kitty" - the tune was written down under that name before "Wha widna fecht for Charlie" appeared. I don't think the words for it are known.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,Wullie
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 05:15 PM

The Black Watch were the police force for the British government to keep down the native highland Scottishmen, a shower of quislings. And Naesmith, you revolted against Britain, not England, as England and Scotland had united as one country.
Christ, none of you seem to know your history


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Hillheader
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM

Kieran

The Corries did a great version of "Wha Wadnae Fecht Four Charlie"
I remember the end of the first verse as "Wha the proud usurper quelled" which would certainly fit the ethos of the song.

I presume both versions have been sung in the past.

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 06:40 PM

Before the Corries there was a superb LP by Archie Fisher and Barbara Dickson of Jacobite songs which included 'Wha widna Fecht for Chairlie'

Jack


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM

Guest Willie, the Declaration of Independence stated:

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States...

American school children are taught that the War of Independence was fought in order to establish a nation where "all men are created equal." In simple terms it was a war against royalty.

You would be amazed at how little the average American cares about the relationship between Scotland and England, two countries the size of one of our bigger states, two hundred years ago.

And we can leave Christ out of it.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Hillheader
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

Guest Wullie

Interesting that the Black Watch were Quislings over 200 years before Quisling!!!

People who live in glass houses (re knowing history) should not go for a shit with the light on!


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: GUEST,Wullie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

Leeneia, your country's ignorance regarding the make up of Great Britain is no excuse, and Davebhoy, people in glass houses shouldn't.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Abby Sale
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM

Giok, et al:

And yet, occasionally the Broomielaw isn't a quay in Glasgow from which many ships sailed.

        One Hogmany at Glesca Fair
        There was me, mysel' and sev'ral mair
        We a' went off to hae a tear
                And spend the nicht in Rothesay, O.
        We wander'd through the Broomilaw
        Thro' wind and rain and sleet and snaw
        And at forty minutes after twa
                We got the length of Rothesay, O.

        "The Day We Went To Rothesay, O"


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Hillheader
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:18 AM

Origin of the name Broomielaw


History of the Broomielaw Quay

"In The Day We Went Tae Rothesay O" the reference to "Broomielaw" is certainly about the quayside and not the croft.


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Subject: RE: Scots Dialect Q's
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:05 PM

Guest, Wullie:

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't"
..
..
..
Until it gets dark!


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