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An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?

FOG(Friend of Gnome) 27 Feb 01 - 09:11 PM
Sarah2 27 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM
Sorcha 27 Feb 01 - 09:34 PM
Art Thieme 01 Mar 01 - 12:35 AM
Clinton Hammond 01 Mar 01 - 01:07 AM
FOG(Friend of Gnome) 01 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Mar 01 - 02:48 PM
Steve Latimer 01 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM
katlaughing 01 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 Mar 01 - 04:36 PM
Art Thieme 01 Mar 01 - 04:40 PM
Rick Fielding 01 Mar 01 - 05:56 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Mar 01 - 06:10 PM
Joan from Wigan 02 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Mar 01 - 02:57 PM
sledge 02 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM
katlaughing 02 Mar 01 - 05:04 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Mar 01 - 05:19 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM
Sorcha 02 Mar 01 - 05:47 PM
Art Thieme 03 Mar 01 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,JTT 03 Mar 01 - 03:29 AM
FOG(Friend of Gnome) 03 Mar 01 - 08:19 AM
Art Thieme 03 Mar 01 - 06:24 PM
Sourdough 03 Mar 01 - 10:30 PM
Art Thieme 03 Mar 01 - 10:40 PM
katlaughing 03 Mar 01 - 10:42 PM
Sourdough 04 Mar 01 - 01:14 AM
Clinton Hammond 04 Mar 01 - 01:19 AM
katlaughing 04 Mar 01 - 01:27 AM
Sourdough 04 Mar 01 - 01:27 AM
Clinton Hammond 04 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM
Rollo 04 Mar 01 - 05:18 PM
Rollo 04 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Mar 01 - 11:58 AM
FOG(Friend of Gnome) 05 Mar 01 - 12:19 PM
Art Thieme 05 Mar 01 - 01:22 PM
FOG(Friend of Gnome) 05 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM
FOG(Friend of Gnome) 05 Mar 01 - 08:43 PM
Art Thieme 06 Mar 01 - 10:17 AM
FOG(Friend of Gnome) 06 Mar 01 - 12:48 PM
Gervase 07 Mar 01 - 06:06 AM
Art Thieme 07 Mar 01 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Les B. 08 Mar 01 - 12:51 PM
Clinton Hammond 08 Mar 01 - 01:02 PM
Art Thieme 09 Mar 01 - 02:40 PM
Rick Fielding 09 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM
Art Thieme 09 Mar 01 - 11:55 PM
Hillheader 10 Mar 01 - 06:04 AM
Gervase 10 Mar 01 - 12:27 PM
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Subject: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:11 PM

With a bloody defiant shake of its head Channel 4's series on bullfighting finally died. Six glorious weeks of gradual wearing down of its readers indifference led to its timely dispatch from our screens. Pomp and circumstance ended in its ears being cut off and sent to the director general of BBC1. Music passion and belief in honour could not save the bull. It just couldnt get its fuckin' head round the fact that it was playing a leading role in one of the oldest reomantic cultural plays in human history. It couldn't even understand it when the band played. It looked around in terrified bemusement at the baying hordes and asked as the so-called brave matador dodged his last desperate raise of the head. So this is honour Amigos?


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Sarah2
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM

Bravo, FOG: bullfighting makes me ill. It seems like a hangover from bear baiting. Matadors are so brave and wonderful, why not have at each other? It would be at least a little more honest, to place the mindset back into the Circus Maximus.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:34 PM

Good. At least in Spain, the bull occasionally wins. I saw bullfights in Mexico and they made me so ill I left the arena and waited outside for the group. So what if El Matador is muy macho? Who gives a shit? Not the bull, that's for sure.

Let's sic the PETA people on bullfights, and get them out of dog shows.


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 12:35 AM

Back in the 1960s, when I was in my 20s, I thoroughly enjoyed watching bullfights on TV in Chicago (channel 26) as narrated by the only matador from Brooklyn, Sidney Franklin. Not being from the culture that grew up with an appreciation of bullfights, I read all I could about the phenomenon. Manolete was a hero of mine. Carlos Arruza and Joselito -- especially Juan Belmonte. Barnaby Conrad books were truly enlightening. As I got older, I think my testosterone levels diminished. And the newer *star* matadors failed to attract me into the art and the tradition of the pageant like the greats I've already mentioned. Beatnik matadors like El Cordobes just didn't do it for me -- but that was probably due to the fact that I was not living in Mexico or Spain etc. and was away from inspirational happenings every Sunday afternoon. As an American, I can understand why real some have a negative opinion of bullfights. I still feel it might be best for many of us who react negatively to cultural aspects of people's lives that differ from our own to, simply, open up to the fact that other folks do things differently than we do. And I'll always be glad that I took the time to enjoy and appreciate la corrida.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 01:07 AM

If bullfighting was honourable and such, the poor animal wouldn't be wounded BEFORE it got into the ring!!

Outlaw it, like cockfights and spouse abuse...

All inhuman...


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM

Re Art Thiemes response , I for one would never dream of demanding that other cultures conform to my particular feelings. It is still a free world(for some). My only point is that when that 'culture' or art takes the form of torture to a defenceless animal, I for one feel it is incumbent on us all to speak out. A truly brave and honourable bullfight would be one in which the matador attempted to kill the bull on its first charge, while it was still fresh and truly went over the top of the horns thus offering the bull a real chance to kill him. Now that would be brave but I dont see many matadors queueing up to try that one. Lets get it straight. Cultural relativity cannot excuse the fact that the bullfight is the slow torture then slaughter of a defenceless animal. All appeals to art and honour are bollocks. And dont tell me I know nothing about bullfighting cos I have witnessed hundreds in my time in Spain and I never seen the bull get off yet. This makes me so angry. The bull never has any real chance to kill the matador. It is too exhausted and terrified by the picadors and the baying crowds for there to be any sense of honour left. The so-called brave matador very rarely goes over the top of the horns these days-it might have been true in Hemingways day but not any more. In fact one of the only matadors that I ever saw go right over the top was Frank Evans and he was English!! Please consider the fact that as a species of animal on this planet we would not like to be tortured slowly then killed for a spectator sport if the human race were not the superior(questionable) species on the earth. I hope to hear how other catters feel about this most emotive of subjects. Phil Seddon


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 02:48 PM

Art, if canabalism was part of a country's culture, would that make it acceptable?

Jon


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

I'm with Clinton on this one. It's Barbaric, it's outdated and sick.


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM

Same here, but I am sure that is no surprise to anyone.

Art, I can understand the honouring of other cultures, but, as FOG said, not at the expense of animals, and yes, that means I don't go to rodeos, anymore, either and that is a culture I grew up in.
:-)

Another example, I do not honour nor condone, which, to me is just as cultural and extreme, and that is the sexual mutilation of young girls to preserve their "virginity."

kat


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Subject: An end to bulfighting? Yes please!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 04:36 PM

Jon... depends on how ya kill 'em... some cultures eat their own dead, and I have no problem with that at all... I only hope they won't be offended if I brown bag it should I even be invited to dinner...

But I guess... what's the difference between killing a cow or a carrot or a person for food... that's the way of the food chain... survival of one is ALWAYS the cause of the death of something else...

Bullfighting is NOT part of the food chain.. it's torture... closer to female circumcision in it's barbarity...

Some things, the world needs to outlaw!


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 04:40 PM

It all depends on your point of view. In places where 100% of folks eat other folks, canabalism would be acceptable.

The best we can do is lean toward the good as we see it.

Feel as you will about all sorts of things. Others will feel and conduct themselves as they see fit. Smoking, choice vs. life, Kosovo vs. peacekeepers, bullfights vs. animal rightists, the Crusades vs. the pacifism of Ghandi and M.L.King. Wars get fought over some of these things---and, then again, some get resolved more amicably.

It's just what is !

As Lenny Bruce said (speaking of those opposed to sex education in schools): "Having a knowledge of syphyllis is not a directive to go out and contract it."

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 05:56 PM

Oh Boy, did I get caught! I honestly thought this was a "joke" thread. Didn't believe they'd actually have bullfighting on TV! If it weren't for my direct(anglo-Saxon) ancestors and their penchant for bear-baiting, and various other animal torturing, I could take a cop-out and say "oh it's a Latin kind of thing", but of course it ain't. Some folks like to watch cruelty, and some like to do it. Hey some like to dress up in latex! Some dress up like Rambo and blow away Bambi. Scary species, us.

Rick


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 06:10 PM

We are certainly a strange species Rick. We seem to have the capabilities of showing great care and kindness but also to commit acts of cruelty that almost defy belief.

Jon


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM

Not having a TV, I didn't see the series - not that I would have watched it if I had. Sickening programmes like this just make me more adamant that I have no need of one. I am against any and all forms of needless animal torture, but feel I am helpless as an individual to do anything practical to stop it. So-called animal rights activists do more harm to their cause than good when they commit acts of terrorism, and I would never join any organisation which condoned, much less encouraged, such acts. So what can I do? What can anyone do?


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 02:57 PM

"In places where 100% of folks eat other folks, cannibalism would be acceptable"

I honestly don't see the difference between eating carrots, cats, cows or Caucasians! LOL!! (sorry... got caught up in the alliteration)

What I'm getting at is that all eating is murder... and to me there's no difference between plants, animals and people... it's arrogance to say we're outside nature that way...

Mind you, I've seen some of you walking down the street, and if it came to it, I think I'd rather starve! LOL!!

How it applies to Bull fighting... Bull fighting has nothing at all to do with the food chain... it isn't about survival... it's entertainment... Should some society (I'm glancing an you Americans) decide to bring back death sports say... have modern to-the-death gladiator matches, while I may or may not watch them, I'd have no problem with them... so long as the people involved willing entered the ring or the cage or whatever... In Bull-fighting, no one asks the bull... No one asks the pig to be bacon either, but that's why we're supposed to be thankful for our food that we NEED to live... we don't need death entertainment to live...

Kinda understand what I'm getting at?

;-)


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: sledge
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM

My penny's worth, it's late here, but:-(

Antiquity is no justification when it comes to cruelty, if we took that line then just imagine the horrors we would see on our streets on a daily basis.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 05:04 PM

Joan from Wigan, there are many animal rights activists like me, who do not condone destructive acts, either. There is much you can do. Boycott wearing fur, leather, become vegetarian (ever seen anything on factory farming?), refuse to buy any products which were tested on animals, esp. cosmetics, as there is absolutely no need for that whatesoever these days.

Use traditinal cleaners, such as vinegar and baking soda down your drains once per month to keep them clean (harsh cleaners are often tested on animals,too); make you own mix of olive oil and lemon juice to polish furniture. Most of all be sure to let companies and stores know WHY you are choosing not to buy certain products.

If you see somethign on television or an event in your town which you think is cruel, speak up!:-)

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 05:19 PM

I'm kinda with Kat on this one... By all means, do speak up when your morals are offended... but

When you step over a fellow human being laying starving on the street in a pool of his own piss to throw paint on my wife's chinchilla fur coat and I wrestle you to the ground and punch $5000 worth of reconstructive surgery into your face to cover the cost, remember... I'm only doing the exact same thing you are... I'm being morally outraged at senseless destruction and acting as I see fit... If I have to suck it up and take it, so do you...

I see fur farms as definitely the way to go, but they need to be made as humane as possible... maybe it'll be a better world when fur can be grown on a culture the same way that skin is grown these days for burn victims... I'm sure the fur companies will hate it as much as deBeers (sp?) hates factory made diamonds...

I guess what I'm getting at is, ya by all means... adopt such activities... but do make sure to take a page from Kats book... don't be preachy about it...

I'm gonna go send an email to a bio-chem chummer of mine about the possibilities of cultured fur... If such a beast was available, I might never wear anything else!!!

;-)


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Subject: This is getting too funny!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM

Holy thread-drift, Batman!

LOL!!


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 05:47 PM

Hey, mon, pearls are cultured, why not fur? Course, the oyster still dies........


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 12:03 AM

People,

I was striving to say that if bullfighting is cruel and bloody and does cause pain/mutilation/death to bulls, when younger I saw another side to it.

When I was 40 years younger, I studied and got into the finer points of bullfighting and was able to enjoy the art of the thing.

I still feel that there are 2 sides to every coin----paradoxes if you will----and we would do better to get out of each others faces and strive to appreciate that there are some good points to the other side's positions.


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 03:29 AM

This "a different culture" thing always bothers me. I mean, it kind of negates our common humanity?

I had a Spanish student staying with me last year - a lovely kid who keeps hens in his family's back garden. He was telling me how he enjoyed bullfighting, and explaining that it was part of Spanish culture.

When he was going home he wanted to bring some eggs to hatch out, and I was nervous - "you won't use the hatchlings for cockfighting when they're grown?" I said.

He was utterly shocked. "No!!" he said. "Cockfighting is illegal in Spain. It's cruel!"


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 08:19 AM

Re Art Thiemes response, Are you sure you are not mistaking the mere trappings and ritual pageantry for art? Sure you say you were a lot younger but what exactly do you mean by 'the art of the thing'? I fail to find any art in the bullfight. The pomp and finery and music are not art, only a show to wrap around a disgusting and degrading spectacle of cruelty. Im sorry Art but I cannot accept much of what you say. Give me some examples of what you mean by 'the art of the thing'-I would love to know-as an art lover am I missing out? All the best-this is developing into an interesting thread Phil


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 06:24 PM

Phil,

That was a long time ago. As I've said, When your memory goes, forget it!
I'm sure there was a ton of stuff to admire back when I did find artistic aspects to the close passes with the cape and the muleta to be beautiful. And a clean kill was a blessing and showed real skill --- going over the horns rather than an inept butcher trying time and time again and to end it and hitting bone time after time---while the afficianados whistled (booing) loudly.

You said that you have seen MANY bullfights. You must've found a reason to go to all of those before being enlightened. Wasn't part of it an appreciation for the finer aspects of the spectacle? Back then I simply didn't have any points of view on the morality of it yet.

I think I finally turned a disgusted eye to the fights when I realized that the pads on the horses ridden by the piccadors were to keep the throngs in the stands from seeing the disemboweling of those animals after the bulls tore 'em open. That turned my stomach (so to speak) and made me realize there were negative things happening here I'd not been able to comprehend before. Somehow, before that, it seemed logical to me that the banderillas and the picas be used to lower the horns before the matador took his stand. The bulls wounded head was lowered so the sword could ultimately find a clear passage to the animal's heart---depending on the skills of the given matador. It made for a cleaner kill.

Then I just walked away from bullfights---gave away all of my books. This thread brought it back to me that I had really gotten into back then.
But I'm still glad I took the time to learn why some were into it so wholehog. (No bull! ;-)

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Sourdough
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 10:30 PM

A number of people have mentioned the bull's feelings as though the bull's feelings have somethng to do with the morality of the issue. If that is the case, doesn't it make a difference that the bull thinks he is winning for the entire bullfight? I think that is because the bull remains aggressive if he thinks he is just about to get that damned little squirt in the tight suit.

The bull does not have an awareness of death.

As Art said, I thnk it is harder to be as accepting of the picadors' horses. These animals take a real beating. There is no beauty in their life. After a couple of bullfights, I think that they are perhaps the only creatures in the bullring who actually might wish to be elsewhere.

. Sourdough


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 10:40 PM

OLE !!!!!!


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 01 - 10:42 PM

Oh, Sourdough, you say the bull can't have feelings, yet you allow him to think in human terms of winning as an explanation of his aggressiveness?

I would think it would be his innate sense of survival, surely, which keeps him driving to destroy the source of the extreme and incessant pain he must certainly feel.

kat


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Sourdough
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 01:14 AM

I read over my post and I wasn't able to see where what I said could be read as saying the bull doesn't have feelings. I did notice though that I may very well have stretched our knowledge of what we know goes on in a fihting bull's consciousness by saying he doesn't have an awareness of death. If you said he did, I really couldn't argue with you for that.

Now let's see, what difference would it make if the bull won more often? Would the bull think it was a more fair fight?

It is true that the bull is defending himself and that is why he is being aggressive. In fact, that is what those blood lines going back for centuries have been designed to produce. I think that really points out the reason why the bull thinks he is winning.

Imagine the scene if bulls were timid and men with words chased them around a ring while a bloodthirsty audience cheered. Wouldn't that be significantly different?

I am not trying to convince kat or anyone else that she should love bullfighting or even like it but to agree hopefully that bullfighting as a moral issue falls somewhere into a continuum of grays.

It has been my experience that it is wonderfully freeing to feel as though I have gotten a grip on a moral certainty. In fact, it feels so good that I have to be careful that my belief really deserves that sort of certainty. Sometimes it does but sometimes I realize that there is validity in another's point of view. My opinion in that this is one of those cases.

. Sourdough


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Subject:
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 01:19 AM

"The bull does not have an awareness of death."

Bollox... Every thing that's alive knows about death... that's why every lving thing fights to stay alive!


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 01:27 AM

Well, Sourdough, I know with a moral certainty that I, personally, would never feel right about killing or condoning the killing of an animal, for so-called sport or for food. It is a moral issue for me and in this case I do think my "belief really deserves that sort of certainty."

I thank you for allowing that there may be validity in other's views. I agree that everyone is certainly entitled to believe as they will.

kat


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Sourdough
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 01:27 AM

"Bollox"? You may be right. I am not sure how we would know. Instinct doesn't necessarily mean awareness, does it? But I have no more real information about this than you do so you won't get an argument from me. Luckily I find the issue of bullfighting more puzzling and more intresting than this particular side issue.

. Sourdough


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

Sourdough... one small nit to pick eh... I'm not arguing... I'm discussing... so I'm more than keen to hear anything else ya have to offer...

;-)


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Rollo
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 05:18 PM

I read something that might explain why mankind enjoys slaughtering (not only at bullfights, but there are many, many examples, including bloodlusty berserkers).

Said there our ancient pre-human ancestors were descended from grain-eaters. They didn't have hunting-instincts like predators. When they reacted to the changing world by starting to eat everything, including animal meat, they had to devellop new hunting skills based on self-defence and social rank fights. Predators don't show agressions while hunting, but keep "cool". On the other hand, for example wild stallions fighting for social ranks are not only very agressive but tend to serious injure each other.

Now human race combined the "killing instinct" with "rage" instinct.

This would be the reason why humans feel joy or tend to get furious when wounding or killing other animals, including other humans of course.

Of course this is no excuse. We have the gift of intelligence and can thing about good and bad. This is where human kind really has the chance to raise above the animal.


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Rollo
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM

Apologies. I meant "we can think" in the end of my stat. *G*


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:58 AM

Don't worry FOG - we will keep up the songs of wanton cruelty and slaughter series to maintain the bloodlust..;-)

CU later

(Mike Canavan at Swinton, tonight - no bull!)

DtG


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:19 PM

Dave I will certainly be there-and hope to share a dram or 2 and perhaps a scented ciggy to the memory of our mutual friend from Leigh Long may you run Malc -unlike the bulls which I hope will cease to run asap. To return to the bull thing. When I started this thread I hoped for some new light on the subject and to reexamine my feelings on it. I accept Art's and others views that some cultures include mutilation and killing as part of their social history. What I cannot accept is that people can defend their enjoyment of the spectacle. If their cat/dog/budgie was tortured and killed while people stood around and cheered they would be pretty upset Im sure. Is it possible to have feelings about some animals and not about all animals? Art, did you keep a pet during the period of your enjoyment of the corrida? If so how did you square the two concepts and keep them seperate-I am interested in how anyone feels able to do that. All the best Phil


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:22 PM

Phil,

I grew up in a high-rise building in Chicago in the 1940s and 1950s. We had no pets--ever.

When I was in highschool, we had a "Social Athletic Club"-----probably equivalent to a soccer club in the U.K. and elsewhere where we were involved in sports---baseball and American football. (Street gangs maybe sprang from this to an extent--but we were pretty benign---even made cash for charities.)

Our S.A.C. was not good at baseball and we were pretty down about it. I thought we needed a mascot to BOOST MORALE. I went to a Polish shop on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago where you could pick out a live chicken, they woould kill it for you, pull the feathers, drain it of blood and wrap the frsh bird for you to take out and make dinner with.

I bought a chicken--a beautiful bird---and took it home ALIVE. We put it into a small suitcase I had drilled many holes in so our pet could breathe. At home, I painted the words "ALFRED---THE BARON'S COCK" artistically on the sides of the suitace. THE BARONS was the name of our club and Alfred Crepin was our least favorite chemestry teacher at Lake View High.
Every day we had a ball game, I took that chicken (Alfred) to our games, tied a nylon cord to her (I can't remember how we did that) and when our guys hit the ball and ran to first base, ALFRED would chase him down the first base line. When the rope ran out, Alfred would tumble head over heels with feathers flying in all directions.

We won the next six games.

Now, a year or so before this, I had found my way to the top floor of the building I lived in. The top floor was the 14th floor but really the 13th floor 'cause no building had a 13th floor then as it would've been bad luck). If you climbed a ladder and made your way through the electrical elevator machinery, you could get up on the roof of the place overlooking Chicago and Belmont Harbor on Lake Michigan. I would go up there to sun bathe and listen to Cub games on a 6 transistor radio (remember those). I could see Wrigley Field if I looked West. For some reason there was a wooden radiator cover up there on the roof. Little did I know that a year later this would make a home for our pet chicken--"The Baron's Cock". I left water and food for her and she did really well for quite a while-----until Frank Caldwell, a maintenance guy from the building, found his way up there one day, saw ALFRED, plucked him, rung his neck and took him home for dinner.

All I found there when I went up that night with water was a ton of feathers and some blood.

The next day I asked Frank if he'd had a good dinner. Somewhere, I've got a photo of a 16 year old me up on the roof with that chicken. You can see the lake and the harbor in the background. My mother and my aunt(mom's twin) used to say on seeing the picture, "Oh, how handsome you were before you grew that beard."------It's funny what sticks with you-----all those parental voices---long gone...

The only other PET I ever had was after I'd moved out of the family home one Thanksgiving when all were out of town but me and when they came home I was out o' there (with my GUITAR, BANJO, bed & desk) and into my own cold-water pad in Old Town where I would bet with myself which cockroach crawling across the ceiling would win the race to the plaster hole. The one that won I would kill first.

No, those weren't pets---the pet I had when I lived there was an iguana named HOMER who would sit on my shoulder as I walked up and down Wells Street and through Lincoln Park Zoo.

And THEN came the bullfights...

ART THIEME


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM

Art I gues its different for you then. Thanks very much for sharing your background. The internet was designed by technologists with luddites in mind. We better start using it to communicate-thank you. The global folk club is with us. When we all get webcams and multi-streaming audio-we will all get to play together across the world. We will have carlos biere estabueno from Cuba on percussion. Bruce from Wallamaloo on didgeridoo and musical boomerang Patrick seamus o'fiddle on string driven things Angus Mac pipe of that ilk on breathing apparatus and glen -tuned iron lung, and last but not least paco de corrida on bulls balls and white hankies


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:43 PM

sorry folks a bad case of thr head drift there lol Phil


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 10:17 AM

Phil,

David Amram has been doing what you describe for 30 years now---at folk festivals and at his classical music concerts etc. Now it's called World Music.

Art


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: FOG(Friend of Gnome)
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Art for enlightening me there lol


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:06 AM

Clinton,
The bull will fight to stay alive, just as every organism will. However, what it does not have is a concept of mortality - of the nature of death and its inevitability. That is what sets human beings (as far as we know) apart from the rest of the biosphere - the fact that we know we are going to die (or, to paraphrase Beckett, that we give birth astride the grave).
It's why we invented God, but maybe that's a thread drift too far. :^) (For that same reason - the fundamental difference between us and other species - I prefer to think of human responsibilies rather than animal rights, but again that's risking drift...)


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:43 PM

Here's the poem/epitaph FRANKLIN JONES by Edgar Lee Masters from his Spoon River Anthology

If I could have lived another year
I could've finished my flying machine,
And become rich and famous.
Hence it is fitting the workman
Who tried to chisel a dove for me
Made it look more like a chicken.
For what is it all but being hatched,
And running about the yard,
To the day of the block ?
Save than a man has an angel's brain,
And sees the ax from the start !

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 12:51 PM

Just curious. What do they do with the dead bulls after a fight? Are they eaten ?


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:02 PM

Sorry Gervase

I don't buy that the human race is the only one on the planet that has that sense of mortality... that sets us apart from everything else and gives us much more credit than we're worth.. we're learning every day, exactily how intelligent, say, chimps, dolphins, parrots ect ect are...

There's no way in hell I'm about to put the human race at the top of the pile... Dolphin kids don't blow each other away at school... Face it, the human race is an evolutionary cul-de-sac... a slight blip on the time line of this planet... and the sooner we're gone, the sooner this planet can begin to move on to bigger and better things...

;-)


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 02:40 PM

I have alway been told that the meat was distributed to the poor.

Art


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM

Actually, that's the case with the dead Matadors as well, Art. I'm told that Manolete was delicious.

Hannibal Fielding


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:55 PM

"It must've been someone I et."

----------Michael Flanders

"Et tu Brute?"

---------Wm. Shakespeare (saying he ate two--not just one.)


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Hillheader
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 06:04 AM

Bullfighting is abhorent, but then so is foxhunting, hare coursing and can someone from over the pond tell me why the rope is tied round the bulls and horses at rodeo's?

I think when we put our respective houses in order, then we can start to convert others.

People in glass houses should not go for a sh** with the light on!


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Subject: RE: An end to bulfighting on Channel 4?
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 12:27 PM

Clinton, I'm with you on not putting the human race at the top of the pile.
Unfortunately we've had 2000 years of a Judaeo-Christian view of life as an heirarchical set-up, with us at the top. Yes, it's cobblers, but those who have the will/ability to behave responsibly should do so - and from what I've seen so far, that means us.
Mind you, the day I come across a dolphin spray-tagging a tube train or dropping litter or buying a gas-guzzling car is the day I start ranting at the cetacea. (You've been warned, Flipper!)


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