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Help: Greensleeves the real composer?

DigiTrad:
GREENSLEEVES
GREENSTAMPS
LADY GREENSLEEVES


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Mr Red 21 Feb 01 - 12:14 PM
MMario 21 Feb 01 - 12:18 PM
IanC 21 Feb 01 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 21 Feb 01 - 12:44 PM
wysiwyg 21 Feb 01 - 12:55 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM
Mr Red 21 Feb 01 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Anonymous 21 Feb 01 - 04:04 PM
LR Mole 21 Feb 01 - 04:20 PM
BH 21 Feb 01 - 04:34 PM
MMario 21 Feb 01 - 04:38 PM
LR Mole 21 Feb 01 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,Sean 21 Feb 01 - 04:57 PM
kendall 21 Feb 01 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,leeneia 21 Feb 01 - 07:01 PM
Lanfranc 21 Feb 01 - 07:16 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 01 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 21 Feb 01 - 09:18 PM
Bob Bolton 21 Feb 01 - 09:40 PM
Melani 21 Feb 01 - 11:35 PM
Edmund 21 Feb 01 - 11:37 PM
Don Firth 22 Feb 01 - 01:40 AM
Monashee 22 Feb 01 - 05:29 AM
Bob Bolton 22 Feb 01 - 07:09 AM
manitas_at_work 22 Feb 01 - 07:46 AM
Jon Freeman 22 Feb 01 - 07:48 AM
GUEST 22 Feb 01 - 10:42 AM
GUEST, Jerry Friedman 22 Feb 01 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 22 Feb 01 - 12:00 PM
Fiolar 22 Feb 01 - 12:24 PM
GUEST, Jerry Friedman 22 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM
Don Firth 22 Feb 01 - 12:40 PM
IanC 22 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM
GUEST 22 Feb 01 - 01:06 PM
Don Firth 22 Feb 01 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Moleskin Joe 23 Feb 01 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 01 - 12:28 AM
Don Firth 24 Feb 01 - 03:11 AM
Fiolar 24 Feb 01 - 12:48 PM
Mark Cohen 25 Feb 01 - 03:23 AM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 25 Feb 01 - 04:26 AM
Don Firth 25 Feb 01 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 26 Feb 01 - 12:17 AM
Don Firth 26 Feb 01 - 01:50 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 26 Feb 01 - 02:14 AM
Mr Red 26 Feb 01 - 07:18 PM
Malcolm Douglas 26 Feb 01 - 07:44 PM
Snuffy 26 Feb 01 - 07:50 PM
GUEST 27 Feb 01 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,petr 27 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM
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Subject: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:14 PM

Anyone know the name of the court musician to Henry VIII who was a prolific composer at a time strangely coincident with Henry's miraculous alledged composing of Greensleeves?

When you are famous for sequestrating monastries and lopping wives' heads and want to plagerise, who is going to argue? Er "not me" said the lutenist.

Said musician's name anyone?


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:18 PM

anonymous as far as I know


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:21 PM

Probably was Henry. As a youth, he was well known as a dancer & musician. Don't let your bias against him make you ignore what he started out as.

By the way, he wrote the set of morris jigs called "greensleeves", not the song tune.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:44 PM

There's absolutely no evidence that the tune was known before 1580, which misses Henry VIII's time by a good bit.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:55 PM

Well, it was me, but don't tell!

~S~


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

Years ago I read in an academic book on folk songs and ballads (can't remember which one, but I probably have it in my bookshelves somewhere) that the first known printed copy (a broadsheet) of the song bore the notation:

Newe words to the olde tune of 'My Ladye Greenfleeves'

The new words were the ones we probably know the best: Alas, my love, you do me wrong . . . etc., and it was dated 1580.

The book also said that although the melody is sometimes attributed to Hank 8, it is very unlikely, and that the best one can say is that its origins are unknown.

Bit of trivia: my wife,Barbara, who owns an old letter-press (weighs about a ton and is stored in a friend's studio) and knows volumes about printing and its history, informs me that the reason the s sometimes looks like an f (minus) the crossbar) is that when it's next to a taller letter like an l, it helps to support the adjacent taller letter. Blocks of type were often made of wood, and they broke easily. That also accounts for some weird conventions in punctuation that still survive.

As a friend of mine used to say, "Greenfleeves. What a ftrange name for a fong!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:22 PM

Af ever the plot getf ficker.

I did hear this story on more than one occasion. How many greensleeves are there? I suppose I better say "TREE" before anyone else does. keep the data flowing.

TIA


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:04 PM

Geensleeves was written by Henry Vlll..he wrote it for his first wife..I should know...I worship that song.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: LR Mole
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:20 PM

At the slightest provocation I'll recite the satire called "Green Stamps", done, I believe, by the Brothers Four. So watch it. Henerry VIII Yam Yam


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: BH
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:34 PM

Having heard a story from and English person recently regarding how Lady Greensleeves got her name I would query this group to see if anyone might be able to answer that question. I'd like to see if it is the same story I heard.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:38 PM

The way I originally heard it was that Henry VIII wrote greensleeves for Anne Bolyn - who wore distinctive (suppossedly green in many cases) sleeves to cover her vestigial sixth finger.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: LR Mole
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:44 PM

I heard (really) that it had to do with women who'd let guys...um...in the fields...grass stains...


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Sean
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:57 PM

I recently played some three part compositions attributed to Henry. They were all excellent and very definitely in the style of his era. Even if he had help in writing some of them it goes to show some compositional tendencies. Also, the simplicity of Greensleeves when compared to these mich more intricate works suggests that Henry could well have written it. Remember, it doesn't take a musical genius to write a catchy tune.

I would also like it to be remembered that extensive musical education was part of the upbringing of such people as much as Latin, Greek, arithmetic, etc.

Sean.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 06:44 PM

And, did Anne Bolyn really have 3 boobs?


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:01 PM

I think that Greensleeves came from into Elizabethan society from somewhere such as Scotland or Ireland. (Queen Elizabeth has one Irish harper in her court that I know of, and perhaps other Celtic musicians were around.) The reason is that there is no other known song in all English literature which is dedicated to anybody's sleeves. In the early twentieth century we find The Blue Skirt Waltz, and that's was close as we come. However, "slieve" is a fairly common word in Gaelic tune names. It means "mountain" or something similar.

If the song came from a conquered people, it is no surprise that its origins remain mysterious.

I used to think that there was no song quite like Greensleeves, but now I have found one. Try playing the beautiful Playford dance called "Daphne" and see what you think.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:16 PM

When I was studying Early Music aeons ago, I remember this discussion arising. From what I remember, the tune we now know as "Greensleeves" was originally of Flemish origin and a dance tune. Henry VIII's claim to authorship would thus be about as tenuous as that of Paul Simon to "Scarborough Fair". You'd have had to be a brave man to gainsay him at the time, however, and it does make a good story.

Can't come up with any formal documentary proof at this stage, but it would be interesting to know why the Belgian songwriter Jacques Brel, who wasn't exactly renowned as a fan of "English" folk songs, used a variant of the tune for his song "Port of Amsterdam".

It is possibly the best known early "English" tune, and has been rehashed numerous times over the years. Ralph Vaughan Williams "Fantasy on a Theme of Greensleeves" (which also includes the Norfolk folksong "Lovely Joan") is perhaps the most famous, and there are numerous parodies. There is also the Christmas Carol "What Child is This?" and the 1960s French pop song "Loin" (that's French for "far away", and not anatomical, by the way!).

As Flanders and Swann used to say, "In every period play, set in any time from the Wars of the Roses to the Victorian era, "Greensleeves" is always played - and the royalties go to Royalty!"

But please, always play it in 6/8 and NOT 3/4!!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:32 PM

The first time I ever heard Greensleeves connected with Henry VIII was on a Flanders and Swann record (At the Drop of a Hat back in the late Fifties or early Sixties, and it was part of a comedy routine. Ever since then, I keep hearing people claiming, without qualification, that it was written by Hank the 8th.

There is no proof and no documentation one way or the other. Music historians, musicologists, and scholars specialiing in English Renaissance music all agree that although Greensleeves is often said to have been composed by Henry VIII, there is no real evidence that he did so.

It is conceivable -- just possible -- that he indeed did write it. He was a competent musician (as were most aristocrats at the time) and he dabbled in composing and song-writing.

But what I find baffling is how many people there are who, in the face of such a lack of positive evidence, can be so all-fired sure that he did. I don't know who wrote Greensleeves, and I'm not afraid to say so. The fact that I don't know doesn't keep me awake nights.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 09:18 PM

No mention of "Greensleeves" has ever been found earlier than the Stationer's Register entry of the ballad on Sept. 3, 1580 (and there's no known extant copy of it). After that date there were many imitaions parodies and moralizations. The song was so poor that it had been forgotten by about 1610, and was a 'lost' song until the late 18th century when it was turned up in 'A handful of pleasant delites', 1584.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 09:40 PM

G'day All,

I seem to remember reading ( - the old 1-vol. Percy Scholes version?) that Greensleeves was typical example of the Italian tunes imported with the improved viol / ~ modern violin in the 16th century.

I also have seen the suggestion that "greensleeves" was a nickname for a promiscuous girl (grass stains on her sleeves).

I understood that the ascription to Henry VIII was only a much later thing and never found in anything contemporary.

Don Firth: It always puzles me to hear people talk about "the reason the s sometimes looks like an f (minus) the crossbar)". It is well known to any student of English that there have been a number of extra letters, now left out of our 26-character alphabet. One of these was the "long s", used for the soft forms (those always using a modern 's') as against the harder forms that are close to modern usage of 'z'.

This is the common usage in handwriting - at least up to the end of the 18th century ... and I have seen it in many 19th century manuscripts. The only contribution that the printing press made to this usage was to elinate it in order to reduce the size of letter cases in the printery. the handwritten letter was more like an extended 's', but print founders 'cheated' by modifying the existing 'f' mould to approximate the "long s".

BTW: Did Greensleeves become the signature tune of motorised icecream vendors in other parts of the world ... or is this just an Australian oddity?

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Melani
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:35 PM

I have heard that the tune is traditional Welsh, and that Henry wrote the words for Ann Boleyn, who did not, to the best of my knowledge, have three boobs. I have also heard that the set of words "What Child Is This?" was written when Elizabeth I wanted to use the tune for a Christmas service, possibly in honor of her mother.

A harper friend of mine, finding her Renaissance Faire set unexpectedly usurped by a christening on the same stage, sat quietly in the background and played "What Child Is This?" for twenty minutes.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Edmund
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 11:37 PM

I'm not musician enough to express this clearly, but the chord progression in Greensleaves is the same as it is in many flamenco pieces. My guitar teacher speculated that the origen of the music might have been in Spain.
Edmund


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 01:40 AM

Bob, just to keep the record straight, I majored in English for about three years before I changed my major to Music. Having been a word-buff all my life, I'm a veritable mine of etymology. I know a great deal about changes in the alphabet, changes in word usage, changes in pronunciation, changes in grammar, and the general history and growth of the English language. Checking again with my wife (a writer and editor who once worked in all phases in a publishing company, including type-setting, and who now works for the Seattle Public Library) she reasserts that many of the type-face combinations no longer in use -- and punctuation conventions still in use that don't necessarily make sense -- come from the fact that many printers used wooden type, and it was pretty delicate. Parts of letters, particularly letters that protruded above or below the letters adjacent, kept breaking off, so certain combinations of letters were cut on a single block, sometimes with a modified shape, so they would reinforce each other. "st" and "sl" were two such combinations. What you say about the differences in pronunciation between the two "s"s is true, but that worked out felicitously for printers who used wooden type.

A little historical trivia.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Monashee
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:29 AM

Isn't it amazing that a song such as this could live on for so long...it is a captivating piece..the mystery really does add to it's appeal don't you think? I love this song..sing and play it on my fiddle..it is timeless.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:09 AM

G'day again,

Don: I was just pointing out that the written forms precede the printing press by centuries ... and seem to have survived past the general use of 'long s' in type. The general written form was similar to an 'f', but often with a forward looped ascender and a backward looped descender ... and thus no crossback at the centre of the letter.

To change tack: My previous posting should have read "I seem to remember reading (The Oxford Companion to Music - the old 1-vol. Percy Scholes version?) that Greensleeves ... " if I had not mucked up the HTML (which does hark back to manual printers' mark-up codes!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:46 AM

>If the song came from a conquered people, it is no >surprise that its origins remain mysterious

At the time of Henry VIII Scotland was a completely independent nation, whose monarch was to succeed Henry's daughter as King of England, and England's rule only held sway in a small area around Dublin known as the Pale.

I've never heard that Anne Boleyn had an extra boob, she may have been said to have an extra teat which is quite different. Moles or other blemishes were often considered to be extra teats.

Greensleeves certainly used to be the signature tune of ice-cream vendors in England.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:48 AM

Bob (and others) it is usually best to drop a note in the Help forum if you realise that something has gone wrong with the HTML. This particular error does not seem to be causing any problems but a number of errors do lock threads up, for Netscape users in particular. They only take us a couple of minutes to fix and I think that the end result looks neater than corrections later in the thread.

I'm faced with my usual dilemma now, do I fix the first post and then your second one would make no sense without an explanatory note (unless of course I deleted your correction) or leave it alone? I guess as it doesn't appear to be causing any problems for my browsers (IE5, Netscape 4.7 and Opera 4.2), I'll leave it alone.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:42 AM

Why does Bruce O. bother ? Nobody listens....

The earliest known version of the melody dates from 1580 or so. It it the version now used for "What Child is this ?" The attribution to Henry VIII is probably about as reliable as an attribution to Old King Cole would be. But I have encounterd even more outrageous claims for other tunes.

A variant in 6/8 time, documented later, was used in the 17th and 18th centuries. It is sometimes called "Green Sleeves and Yellow Lace" and "Green Sleeves and Pudding Pies".

A Kidson/Neal book of 1916 prints a third variant, in 2/4 time.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST, Jerry Friedman
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:45 AM

I'm paying attention to Bruce--but just to look for mistakes. How long was "Greensleeves" lost? It was known before the late 18th century, since according to this site, it was Air 67 in John Gay's Beggar's Opera (1728) and was used in "a number of songs" in some (roughly contemporary?) source called Pills. Could you have meant the late 17th century?

And if "Greensleeves" was so poor, when did it become so beautiful?

Okay, Bruce, thanks for posting some real historical data. A little more: the bass line seems to be that of a dance form called the passamezzo (or the very similar romanesca), according to many sources, such as this one (scroll down to "passamezzo"). I am not suggesting that the origin might be Italian!

In fact, today a friend of mine happened to send me the following quotation on a distantly related subject. The last sentence is my favorite.

'I'm often asked the question, "Do you think there is extraterrestrial intelligence?" I give the standard arguments -- there are a lot of places out there, and use the word *billions*, and so on. And then I say it would be astonishing to me if there weren't extraterrestrial intelligence, but of course there is as yet no compelling evidence for it. And then I'm asked, "Yeah, but what do you really think?" I say, "I just told you what I really think." "Yeah, but what's your gut feeling?" But I try not to think with my gut. Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in.'

- Carl Sagan, The Burden Of Skepticism, The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. 12, Fall 87


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:00 PM

I said that the song was lost, not that the tune was lost.

Yes "Greensleves" is a discant on the romanesca, or cut time passamezzo antico, and sometimes both. John Ward noted (JAMS XX, 1967)) that as a result "Greensleeves" was a type rather than a specific tune. Note that there are 6 versions of it in the broadside ballad tune ABC files on my website.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Fiolar
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:24 PM

According to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable "Greensleeves" was a popular ballad in the time of Queen Elizabeth I. It is apparently mentioned in Shakespeare's "The Merry Wives of Windsor." During the English Civil War it was used as a tune for political ballads and is mentioned by Samuel Pepys under the title of The Blacksmith. I heard many years ago and I don't know how true it is that prostitutes in Tudor times were required by law to wear green-sleeves.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST, Jerry Friedman
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM

Sorry, Bruce! I've been away from the Mudcat for so long I forgot that you say "song" where I'd say "lyrics".


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:40 PM

Right you are, Bob. I did some further checking (sparked my curiosity) and learned that movable type was first developed in China in the eleventh century, and the idea may (or may not) have been brought back to Europe by Marco Polo. Europeans fiddled with it off and on, using laboriously carved wooden type (by now the Chinese had decided that it didn't work very well because it kept breaking, and switched to clay). Gutenberg didn't invent movable type, he just made it work; one source says by "bringing together concept of movable type with the technologies of paper, oil-based ink, and the wine-press."

Major thread creep here. Sorry about that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: IanC
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM

Thanks, Jerry.

There being no evidence for something before 1580 simply means that it's at least as old as that, not the other way round.

I'm not convinced Henry wrote the song - there's no evidence. But that means there's currently no evidence he didn't either. I'm fairly sure that he did, however, write a number of other songs and poems as this is fairly well established. See this site for useful info.

The Works of Henry VIII

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 01:06 PM

Air 67 in The Beggar's Opera is the "Pudding Pies" variant, not exactly the same as the 16th century air.

"Daphne" bears some resemblance to "Greensleeves". A piece called "A Gigg" in The Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, II.237, also has some similiarities. But differences are also clear from the second bar or so:

"Daphne":
Em B Em
When Daphne from fair Phoebus did fly

"Greensleeves":
Em D
Alas my love you do me wrong

In one of the 16th-century references to "Greensleeves" is it designated a "new tune" ? Or not ?


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 03:04 PM

Who wrote Greensleeves? Henry VIII? "Yes, he did." "No, he didn't!" "Yes, he did." "No, he didn't!" "Did!" "Didn't!" "Did!" "Didn't!" (sigh).

People have been fruitlessly applying the whip to this equestrian cadaver for quite a long time now, and as they say, the beat goes on. A discussion on this subject on, oddly enough, a website which seems to be dedicated to the works of Jane Austin, contains an exchange too long to cut-and-paste here, but you might check it out to see an example of previous discussions, neither more nor less authoritative than everything that has gone before and has come after.

The only accurate answer, pending either Divine Revelation or the discovery of relevant documentation, is "Nobody knows for sure."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:50 AM

I always understood that Greensleeves was attributed to/associated with Francis Cutting the English lutenist.

Good Luck

Ian M.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 12:28 AM

I don't know who wrote Greensleeeves..But Gutenburg invented moveable type. The chinese invented Printing,,Gutenburg made it move........

Geordie


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 03:11 AM

Nope. The Chinese were using movable type in the eleventh century. Check it out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Fiolar
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 12:48 PM

Has anybody considered that the whole thing might be a rather humorous parody? The Tudors were big on that sort of thing as witness Utopia by Thomas More. Also there is a well known one in Irish called "Eoghan Coir" written in the 18th century by a Richard Barrett. It praises the "generosity" of a well know land-lord of the times when everyone knew that he (to use a Dickensian phrase) outscrooged Scrooge. Irish mudcatters will recognise the poem.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 03:23 AM

OK, folks, my turn to play pedant. I've loved this thread, by the way, and was pleased to see somebody resurrected this Greensleeves thread from 1997, which has more of Bruce's amazing erudition.

First, the subject on which I'm not an expert. My recollection was that the use of the long vs. the short "s" depended on the position of the letter within the word, not on its pronunciation: the form we commonly use today was a "final" letter, as in certain Hebrew (and, I think, Arabic) letters. Hence, a word ending in "ss" would be written with a long and a short "s", in that order. Somebody will probably correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding Anne Boleyn's purported "third boob", I can offer a more precise explanation of the anatomy, if not the history. It's not just that "moles or blemishes were sometimes considered to be extra teats." It is fairly common for a person, male or female, to be born with one or more "supernumerary nipples" (more than one is less common). This can be found below the nipple on the chest or abdomen, along what corresponds to the "milk line" in other mammals such as dogs and cats. It ranges in appearance from a small flat pigmented spot, to what looks like a poorly-formed nipple, to, rarely, a well-formed but small nipple with underlying breast tissue that may enlarge at puberty. My suspicion is that the lady in question had something along that, er, line.

Oh, and, Don, it's Jane Austen. I know you knew that and it was just a typo, but I wanted to be really pedantic.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 04:26 AM

What startles me about the tune is how adaptable it is. Sinnce it is first listed as [from memory this - a New Northern Song]I prefer to think of it,with absolutely no suppporting evidence, as a Scots tune. I also recall reading that up till around 100 years ago it was a lively jig. Third, if you retread the tune to become major rather than minor mode it turns into a family relative of a popular Scots kids ring game tune with a tangled pedigree - Who'll Come In Tae Ma Wee Ring / Bee Baw Babbity.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 02:02 PM

Right, Mark. Austen it is!

My only excuse is that I know a great folksinger/guitarist named George Austin.

My wife, Barbara, discovered Jane Austen when she was very young, and she has problems watching movies (even stuff on Masterpiece Theatre) adapted from her novels. Also with the Bronte sisters, particularly Charlotte's Jane Eyre, which I think Barbara has memorized. She can practically do a sing-along with the dialog, and when they deviate from the original, it causeth her to cry out and rend her garments!

She browses Mudcat from time to time, but maybe she'll miss my heinous goof. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 12:17 AM

Guest, I'm quite used to being ignored. True believers never let facts impinge on their cherished fictions.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:50 AM

Bruce, I haven't been ignoring you, I think I've been agreeing with you all along.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 02:14 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that everyone ignores me. I was responing (rather late) to the comment in the message of 10:42 AM, Feb. 22.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 07:18 PM

I posed this question at the Cheltenham Folk Club (2/4th Fri - venue moving soon) and a knowledgable violinist insisted that there is a "morris" tune called Greensleeves and said it as if it was different to the "song" tune. And he thought it was just possibly conceivable that Hank might have.....

I would have prompted him to play it but my date for the night (first date) said she would go off folk clubs permanently if they ever played Greensleeves.

How should I choose, the tune or the girl? HELP.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 07:44 PM

The Morris tune is a close relative, and sounds similar, but different.

I should go for the girl.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 07:50 PM

There are several Morris versions of Greensleeves, although most will be found under the name of "Bacca Pipes", as the tune was often used for a solo dance round a pair of crossed clay pipes (English equivalent of the highland sword dance?).

Anyway there are Bacca Pipes from Ascott-under-Wychwood, Bampton, Headington, and Hinton, Greensleeves from Longborough and Stanton Harcourt traditions. I can post ABCs of any or all if required.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 12:03 PM

Here is musical notation for the "Yellow Lace/Pudding Pies" (dance) variant.


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Subject: RE: Help: Greensleeves the real composer?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM

fascinating thread. I just wanted to add to the above comments on printing and the f and s lettering. I do know something about printing, as I run a printshop and my father worked in that business for almost 60 years (most of it in letterpress) Ive always heard that was an early s. The reasoning about the wooden type doesnt make much sense to me as very little type was made of wood (usually only large block letters) as small type would be hard to carve and could not withstand the pressure and last very long.

From the time of Gutenberg most small type was cast in lead (with some other metals), wooden type was almost never smaller than about 1 1/2 inches.

By the way Gutenberg did invent movable type (although independently from the Chinese and Koreans). He took existing technologies and put them together, like the wine press, paper (a chinese invention also), and his skill as a goldsmith (goldsmiths made punches to sign their work) and put it all together. The main advantage of Gutenbergs system is that he made steel punches of letters and punched them into molds from which he cast lead type. This way he could produce many copies of letters. These were often melted down and the lead re-used.

The Chinese used wooden hand carved characters and later clay although the Koreans did cast metal type. The main disadvantage was the Chinese writing system requires thousands of Characters whereas the European alphabet has only a small number making it much easier to reproduce.

On the other hand there are some typefaces notably script style that do have overhangs ie. the top of the s that hangs over another character otherwise they would be too far apart.

Thanks for the link on the Printing history site Don. It is quite informative although the last section on advances in Printing Technology while mentioning the Linotype (machine typesetting) completely ignores the invention of lithography (by Alois Senefelder around 1800) which was later developed into offset printing and is in fact todays dominant printing technology used by most printers. Very few printers use letterpress now except for some special applications such as goldstamping, embossing, diecutting and numbering.

There are also other printing process such as screen printing and engraving which are different as well and get no mention on that site. cheers petr.


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