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Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!

Malcolm Douglas 23 Feb 01 - 10:35 AM
wes.w 23 Feb 01 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,Mark. West Sussex U.K. 22 Feb 01 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Passing Stranger 22 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM
JohnB 22 Feb 01 - 12:38 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Feb 01 - 10:58 AM
Dunc 22 Feb 01 - 03:00 AM
Lady McMoo 21 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM
thehippydragon 21 Feb 01 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Blind desert Pete 21 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Sam Pirt 21 Feb 01 - 03:33 PM
katlaughing 21 Feb 01 - 03:17 PM
Art Thieme 21 Feb 01 - 03:09 PM
Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) 19 Feb 01 - 11:20 PM
longarm 19 Feb 01 - 10:20 PM
Jim the Bart 19 Feb 01 - 06:15 PM
katlaughing 18 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM
Dave Wynn 18 Feb 01 - 07:29 PM
Hawker 18 Feb 01 - 04:05 PM
Art Thieme 18 Feb 01 - 11:27 AM
katlaughing 18 Feb 01 - 08:20 AM
Deni 18 Feb 01 - 05:53 AM
katlaughing 17 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Feb 01 - 01:43 PM
sledge 17 Feb 01 - 11:58 AM
Gervase 17 Feb 01 - 11:12 AM
JohnB 17 Feb 01 - 11:02 AM
Hawker 17 Feb 01 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 17 Feb 01 - 08:02 AM
leprechaun 16 Feb 01 - 10:57 PM
katlaughing 16 Feb 01 - 10:46 PM
katlaughing 16 Feb 01 - 10:29 PM
Hawker 16 Feb 01 - 09:20 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 16 Feb 01 - 08:19 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Feb 01 - 07:56 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Feb 01 - 07:55 PM
nutty 16 Feb 01 - 07:49 PM
katlaughing 16 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM
radriano 16 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM
nutty 16 Feb 01 - 07:11 PM
katlaughing 16 Feb 01 - 05:23 PM
Zebedee 16 Feb 01 - 05:01 PM
wdyat12 16 Feb 01 - 04:35 PM
radriano 16 Feb 01 - 04:26 PM
Bernard 16 Feb 01 - 04:18 PM
Lepus Rex 16 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM
nutty 16 Feb 01 - 03:56 PM
sledge 16 Feb 01 - 03:46 PM
scouse 16 Feb 01 - 03:42 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Feb 01 - 03:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:35 AM

The objection is not to killing, which is pretty much an unavoidable part of life, but to killing for pleasure which is quite another matter.  Some predators do it, of course, but we humans, who set ourselves up as in some way separate from, and superior to, the rest of the animal world really have no excuse for indulging in such things.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: wes.w
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:16 AM

Fox Hunting is a living tradition still, which is more than can be said for English folk song. Personally, I'd rather just shoot foxes, but it isn't that practical.
Foxes aren't nice furry creatures, they are vicious blood lusting killers (just like the hunt?). I've come down some mornings to find pens of ducks and chickens mauled, often only half alive, with only the odd one taken for food.
Perhaps some of you would understand more if you didn't buy everything prepacked in supermarkets. Own up now; who expects someone else to kill their meat for them, and then pretends they don't know anything about it?
Yours very sadly ... wes


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: GUEST,Mark. West Sussex U.K.
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 08:13 PM

People hunted. People wrote songs. Not singing the song won't change the past. People still hunt foxes today ( although most of them, even fifty years ago would not have been allowed near a hunt because they would not be sociially acceptable enough) Kennelmasters still kill perfectly healthy hounds at about six years old because they've lost that youthful vigour. Each year over thirty thousand new born bitches are crushed under the Kennelman's heel because, as females, they are not suitable for pack hunting. The problem is, does a song about Hunting two centuries ago give tacet support to contemporary hunters? I think it comes down to irony. I heard a man last year sing "John Peel" with a tone of scathing contempt. Familiar words and tune but with a bit of genius in the delivery it became one of the best anti-hunting songs I have heard.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: GUEST,Passing Stranger
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM

I wonder how many of those who condemn hunting, fishing and meat eating keep a cat or cats?

Ever heard of a veggie cat? They do more damage to wildlife than all the hunts/hunters/fisherman in the world put together.

If a "cute and cuddly animal lover" owns a moggie, they are hypocrites pure and simple.

Cats are by nature carnivorous (ie they eat meat (and fur and bones and feathers))

Homo sapiens is by nature omnivorous, and has evolved from hunter/gatherers.

Get real, veggies, sabs and antis - especially the violent or proselytising variety. You live the way you want to, and let others do the same.

Just pretend that we're cats!


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: JohnB
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 12:38 PM

Old Lilter Followed in and never more was seen which made our Poor Sportsmen to murmer. Not a finer litle hound ever ran above the ground, he was the bonniest little hound in the number. Foxes Nil Hounds 1. Well in that verse anyhow. JohnB


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:58 AM

In traditional versions of "The White Hare of Howden", the hare is always caught.  There is a verse in which she escapes, but this appears to be a modern bowdlerisation, perhaps by Gary Aspey, which doesn't really fit the song, either syntactically or as a piece of storytelling.  See the current thread  The White Hare (Watersons)

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Dunc
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 03:00 AM

If I ever sing a hunting song in which the fox / deer / hare dies, I always follow up with "The White Hare Of Howden" - 'cause she always escapes the hunt. I will continue to sing the songs as long as I enjoy them and those hat I sing for enjoy them. They tell it as it was in yester year, but I like to finish with the 'hunted' getting the upper hand.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM

I disagree fundamentally with hunting for sport and wouldn't and couldn't personally bring myself to do a hunting or whaling song. But I wouldn't impose my views on anyone else and can appreciate the quality of many of these songs if not the sentiment.

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: thehippydragon
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 04:07 PM

May I just mention The Black Fox? Does that count as a hunting song? Or an anti-hunt song? If it does, I would say it shows that there are different opinions aired, sometimes even with subtlety, within the genre.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: GUEST,Blind desert Pete
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM

Kat: Better give up photography too. Where do you think the gelatin on film and paper comes from?


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:33 PM

What are traditional songs about? correct, the past, its cultures, traditions etc.. If you sing it does not mean you are condoning it, if anything you maybe portraying how bad the sport is through the medium of song.

The minuite you start to look at your reportoir to suuch detail your vision will become clouded then you will be singing songfs without a meaning, message or of any opinion be it in your eyes good or bad.

Music is about creating emotions, Punk music came about for a reason and it worked, surly fox hunting songs can be see along these same lines.

Cheers, Sam


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:17 PM

And another profundity from our esteeemed Fine Art!


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 03:09 PM

Lean toward and do the best you can according to your lights--and then paticipate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. Yes, just one more paradox.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 11:20 PM

I am reminded of a standup comic I saw on TV a couple months ago. He talked about going to see old movies at a theater in Los Angeles. There were people in the theater that objected to the characters in a movie filmed in the 40s not living up to modern ideals. "Sure, let the women clear the dishes while the men retire to the den for cigars and brandy. Can you believe it?" "can you believe the way they treat the Indians" ..........
Certainly in this day and age, these would be considered distasteful, as would Ricky spanking Lucy, a black employee having to step and fetch and say "Yassuh Boss, I cleans it up good.", Father automatically knowing best, or any of a host of things that society has (hopefully) grown out of. Nonetheless, these movies are not portraying life today, or necessarily saying that we should go back to living in those times. Life began before the 1990's, and if you listen to the music that's out now, I'm glad that it did.

Rich


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: longarm
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 10:20 PM

Still sing songs about Whales but would never dream of hurting one. I've always been facinated by harpooners,I guess that's why there's always cocktail sticks floating in my goldfish bowl!


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 06:15 PM

From time to time I have to draw a line and say "I don't advocate or support this and I won't include I song about it in my repertoire". I don't do it because I'm convinced something is necessarily "wrong" or evil; after all, "right" or "wrong" are such relative terms. I do it because even when the song is pretty it's not beneficial to glorify or mythologize certain things. One of these areas for me is blood sports. No Nascar songs or fox hunting songs for me. But that's just me.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM

Dear Hawker,

I did take your "Ha, ha" as irony and I didn't take offense at anything you've said. I am sorry that I have gotten into the personal, but it is a subject very close to my heart, so it is hard not to.

I am very sorry about your cat and the chickens and it is nature. I am not making a judgement call, but that is one reason why my cats have all been indoor cats or in and out in an enclosed run for many years, as I just couldn't stand the heartbreak.

I think I've said what I meant here and it is time for me to bow out. Thanks for the discussion.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 07:29 PM

Sorry Bernard ....I read the bit about duty....Why is it "our duty"...I am a singer/musician. If I am being paid to sing , then I will sing any kind of material that the piper asks.....But dont tell me it's my duty...It's may be my choice to prostitute my talemts (such as they are) but it's not my bloody duty , it's my choice! (right or wrong).

If I am singing for ME and bugger the audience (eg they haven't paid to see me) then I will sing and play what the F I want too. I am happy to take the consequences of my personal taste and face any critics on or off the car park.

If however you believe accoustic / folk etc etc clubs should provide a platform only for people who sing out of a misplaced "duty to make the audience feel comfortable" then count me out of such clubs....and try telling that to countless singers/ musicians who write and sing what they feel rather than pander to such censorship....

Spot.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Hawker
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 04:05 PM

Kat/Katlaughing,

It is easy to explain badly what you are trying to say.... and I apologise I think I just did.....

The Ha Ha was ironic laughter NOT LOL or ROFL laughter. Anyone who is honest, decent and humane dislikes the idea of killing any other living thing and if we all had to kill cattle for beef ourselves or whatever, then there would be a whole lot more vegetarians in this world. In stating that it defeats the object, I was referring to it being a hunting song and there seems no point in terrorising a poor innocent fox by chasing it accross the countryside scaring it half to death, only to put it in a box and then let it go. That idea of allowing the hunters to excercise their horses, let their dogs run, following a "dragged" scent seems better, as there technically is no kill at the end seems more socially acceptable, but the inference that I thought it was funny was not intentional.

Surely, by asking the question I am asking others for their feelings on EC...... I think all would agree that there are many, many trad songs that are NOT EC for one reason or another...... and in support of Deni, the same is VERY true with fairy tales - big bad wolves eating up children out walking in the woods..... evil stepmothers poisoning their princess daughters!

As for convictions - I am tempted, due to my sad sense on humour to say I have no convictions - my police record is clean, but I was once fined for parking with 2 wheels on the pavement...... but I know what you mean. I have not mentioned convictions because I did not want this to become a PERSONAL discussion, but a more reasoned debate on the subject. But seeing as how you asked......

I would not like the idea of being persued and slaughtered like Mr Fox / deer / whatever. Therefore on the addage do unto others, I personally would not do it myself. However Mr Fox killed one of my dearly loved young cats and all my neighbours hens in a night of carnage - he has caused me heartache. me... You may say that that is nature and he is an animal.... So are we and from the newspapers & television of today and history, that is all too apparent. Lets not add to the hatred in this world - life is too short.

Hope this is more clearly put? as I said at the start I DID NOT mean to cause offence. Apologies to those who felt otherwise! Lucy


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 11:27 AM

Is no right. Is no wrong.
There's just what we do.

I've often said, believing it pretty much (especially since the 2000 election in the U.S.A.) that the law is whatever the Supreme Court says it is. I can say that still feeling the election was stolen and terrible damage was done to a great old system of governing.

Still, there's just what is ! And I'll always enjoy watching the parade as it passes. What a show. And I'm lucky to be able to watch it.

(See the song "THE FOX" -- where the fox itself is the hunter---..."and the little ones chewed on the bones" !

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:20 AM

So, if I'd stated my views like this:

With children's workshops we sing.... We'll catch a fox and put him in a box and then we'll let him go.... sort of defeats the object really but I suppose it could be classed as a song about a drag hunt!! Ha Ha!

Or this,

As for teaching hunting songs to children, I suppose you would apply the same 'censorship'rules as for any other kind of violence. Not many parents would read the original fairy tales to their kids, as they are far too horrific, but tend to stick to the more sanitised versions.

without any mention of EC or my convictions, it would have been more acceptable and I wouldn't have heard such things as "fucking PC?"

The above comments look like the same thing I was talking about, IMO.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Deni
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:53 AM

I would never hunt either, but you can't just chuck out great chunks of history because it isn't PC. I sing a lot of very emotional songs about war, death, and all sorts of unsavoury topics and folkies seem to have a higher ughh factor than the general public. I have heard that some political songs are particularly inflammatory to the people on the opposite side. The reason folk songs are so powerful is that they are written from one viewpoint.

One of the best-selling horror writers said that people enjoy being scared because it allows them to face their greatest fears and deal with them. In the same way we go through a hundred (exaggeration?)different emotions when we listen to folk music, not least of which is relief that life ain't like that any more.

How could you ban hunting songs and then sing about people being put to death for what would be seen these days as trivial offences? If I weeded my song list of all dodgy topics, I might be left with love songs, (Hmmm. Not that I don't love them, I hasten to add!)and songs about how lovely it is to rise at four, work like a slave for eighteen hours and then take home just enough to put a loaf of bread and some dripping on the table.

As for teaching hunting songs to children, I suppose you would apply the same 'censorship'rules as for any other kind of violence. Not many parents would read the original fairy tales to their kids, as they are far too horrific, but tend to stick to the more sanitised versions.

Deni


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM

Thanks, Malcolm. As soon as I can dig out their tape I will give you a specific. If my memory serves, it was a very slight change, much along the lines of what Hawker mentioned about "letting him go" in the foxhunting song.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 01:43 PM

Thanks for fixing my plague of italics, Kat.  As to the "folk process", I was making a general point, since I obviously have not seen what alterations your friends may have made to their texts, and have no idea in what kind of communities they grew up.  The term gets used a lot round the Forum, and I certainly believe that it is often used carelessly, without any real informed understanding of what it actually means.  Baring Gould and Marson, for example, were considerable scholars and conducted a great deal of "field research", but their re-writing of traditional texts was in no way a part of any folk process; they were setting themselves up as mediators of tradition -in essence, as more important than the people who actually maintained and practised that tradition.  I would say that exactly the same is true of bowdlerisation or any other kind of deliberate re-writing of traditional texts today where it is intended to change their meaning; it feels to me like an intentional falsification of the historical record, no matter how well meant.  The fact that a person may have a good grasp of traditional idiom may mean that their re-write won't sound too awkward on the face of it, but it won't be a traditional song any more, and should not be represented as such.  I wouldn't dream of saying that anybody has no right to make such alterations, but I would say that anybody who does this is doing just what many collectors of a century ago did, and with no greater justification.  When I say this I am speaking specifically of the sort of alterations discussed in this thread; my comments should not be taken as extending to what I would call the "genuine" folk process, which is too complicated an issue to deal with here; I've already "crept" the thread quite far enough!

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: sledge
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:58 AM

Gervase, well said.

One of my favourite songs centres on incest and murder, yet 30,000 people yelled their aproval of Maddy Priors rendition of sheath and knife at croperdy 99, no protests ordark looks for that one.

Stuart


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:12 AM

At the risk of pouring petrol on the flames, if someone were to write a contemporary hunting song and it was good, I'd be happy to sing it.
I have every respect for Kat's views, and she clearly lives a lifestyle in accordance with her ethical framework (which is more than many of us can achieve), but I shoot and fish and I have hunted in the past. I know in some circles that's tantamount to admitting to a penchant for paedophilia and neo-Nazism, and it has brought me some grief from colleagues in the Labour Party, but I'm afraid that's what I am, and that's what I do. One of the reasons I don't hunt is that in the south of England, where I live, most hunts have been hikacked by social climbers, would-be aristos and crashing snobs who embody so much that is bad about British society.
That, however, is only part of the picture - albeit the picture that is most often seen by the public.
One of the things that has saddened me about much of the pro-hunting lobbying currently under way in the UK is how it has failed to galvanise really popular support and instead has used spurious arguments to further the views of this narrow minority (as well has being hijacked by rabid anti-government types and the nastier elements of the far right, including the BNP).
Yet there are communities for whom hunting is still an elemental part of life, and their voice is not heard - or if it is, it's parenthsised in a patronising way by Daily Telegraph feature writers.
I'm no great shakes as a songsmith, but I would love someone to write a modern hunting song which had passion and beauty and I would be happy to sing it.
For, as said above, even if we don't approve of something, keeping and singing a song about it is an important historical document - and history hasn't come to a stop yet.
That's my two-pennorth, and I don't mind being flamed for it. Personally, I have already experienced hostility in some quarters when I've sung hunting songs - though rarely when singing songs about whaling, adultery, murder or war.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: JohnB
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:02 AM

Whenever we sing the newer songs, I generally ramble on about how such a barbaric sport spawned such wonderful songs. If we do older ones such as Blow Thy Horne Hunter, William Cornyshe 1525, I brag about how Harry and I would sing these songs in the Pub after a Day at the chase. I would not sing them if I thought people would throw things at me for doing so. Nor would I change the words for Politcal fucking Correctness. JohnB


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Hawker
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 08:06 AM

With children's workshops we sing.... We'll catch a fox and put him in a box and then we'll let him go.... sort of defeats the object really but I suppose it could be classed as a song about a drag hunt!! Ha Ha!

Are there any songs about drag hunting I wonder!? Anyone?


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 08:02 AM

But what does Basil Brush think?

Rembember him being very upset with:

"a hunting we will go, we'll catch a fox and put him in a box and never let him go."


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: leprechaun
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 10:57 PM

I'm not sorry. It was me or the deer.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 10:46 PM

Here ya go:

Help: "Coon" songs - Your thoughts about them

Song appropriateness

Cotton-eyed Joe-true story/composite?

PC is not a dirty word-Proud to be PC! (This is the one where we discussed "ethically correct/conscious")

Suggestions for "Old-timey" American songs


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 10:29 PM

Fionn, not much to explain except that I was in abusive relationships with each ex, at different times, obviously, and I went along because I had no choice. I never used a gun on an animal in my life. I was raised NON-hunting and the brief times I was married to hunters were over almost 25 years ago. Been a vegetarian for almost 20. I believe in living my convictions.

Sorry, nutty, if it felt like you'd touched a powderkeg; these issues are close to my heart.

Malcolm, not sure how you measure whether someone is part of the tradition and has any rights to change anything...does growing up in it count? That's where my friends are coming from, as well as having done field research and scholarship in the UK.

Please do not read into my words what I do not say. I never said the original documents or songs should all be obliterated/changed or whatever. I was citing ONE instance.

Fionn, great attitude, to dimiss someone's views with a flippant "to hell with them." Even with the addition of a smiley.

I do not have the energy to restate all that I feel on these issues.

Hawker, we have had some really good threads on such questions. I'll go *hunt* some of the up and come and post them for you.

Oh, BTW, I am thinking of rewriting the words to How Much is that doggie in the window. Such an exploitative song! I think I'll change them to How Much Is That Human in the Window! **BG** (It's a joke, guys!!)

kat


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Hawker
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 09:20 PM

Hi, Interesting thoughts from you all - I asked really because this question was raised at a meeting of performers who were going to be working with children in the 7 to 11 age group on a project about Exmoor - and there is a great hunting song - The Exmoor Hunt. It was decided by the project leader to include the song in the pack, but not to use it as one of the core songs - but let the schools use it if they wished - none out of the 12 schoiols did! I am planning a similar project in Bude and wondered what the world thinks - as I said at the start, I am not going to come down on one side or the other, I don't like the words I quoted, but they are a record of what happened, and as hunting gets banned in UK maybe it is good to have a record of that to remind us whay it was banned?

MMario I am not trying to cause contraversy - as I also said earlier, there is enough of that inthe world, just trying to see how others feel about the subject - not always easy without causing someone offence!

Well you can't please all the people all of the time - we should all know that as artists! - and MMario you tried damned hard last night - and I was pleased - Good stuff!

Lucy


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 08:19 PM

I'm with you 100 per cent nutty. Times change, values change. Foxhunting was simply not in question when the songs were written that Hawker's talking about. It would be absurd to condemn those who hunted 100-200 years ago, or to condemn their wonderful songs. (I'd draw the line at people writing songs now that glorified foxhunting.)

Aren't you being a bit disingenuous Kat? Slavery was always in question among those with consciences, and you surely appreciate that there is limited value in comparing the relative effects of singing songs about foxhunting and songs about "coons." Not my business, but I would have thought your own past involvement in hunting took a little explaining, assuming that your concern for animals is not just a recent fad.

Don't know why I don't just come straight to the point and say to hell with PC/EC, whatever you want to call it. *BG*


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 07:56 PM

Italics unintentional!

no problem - fixed by
- la joeclone -


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 07:55 PM

To be fair to Sharp and Baring Gould, they had to "clean up" the songs in order to get them published; both, as a rule, preserved the original texts in their manuscripts.  That, too, was just the way things were.  With all due respect to Kat, the deliberate bowdlerisation of what are, quite apart from anything else, historical documents is not a legitimate part of the "folk process"; that term is so often used to justify all kinds of abuses of traditional material by people who are not themselves part of that tradition.  If people feel that children are unable to deal with the real thing, perhaps they would do better to wait until they are older before broaching the subject.  Mind you, I'm not so sure that children are unable to cope with the truth, provided it's explained carefully and put in context.  It's more than a century, after all, since Baring Gould was publishing, and Cecil Sharp died in 1924.  I'd like to think that we've matured a little as a culture since then.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: nutty
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 07:49 PM

Sorry Kat - if I gave the impression of "Having a go" at you - that was not my intention
I was interested, with regard to the new "ethically correct/concious" labellings but I feel we need to remember that we are human beings and as such, we are fallible.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM

Not trying to nutty and we've had long discussions about this before. As I said, they tell the children about the lives and times. The kids get a wonderful history lesson and are made aware of what happened to the whales and that it was a well-respected way of life, then they get to hear the artists' own version, which is not censorship, it is folk process. They do not do it with every song and they are working with very, very young children, so they do what they have the right to feel is appropriate. I happen to agree with them in this instance.

Like I said before, and as has been said in threads about "coon" songs etc...it really comes down to whether you feel a song is appropriate for your audience and also how you feel about singing about such things as hunting and the other things you mentioned. There are so many others songs available which would not be offensive, yet are stil trad.

I did NOT say that we should change History nor make it "polically correct" and I will not get dragged into any arguments about such.

BTW, for those of you who are so adamantly opposed to what PC started out as, we've a new term which reflects more of how a lot of us feel...it is "ethically correct/conscious." If you are interested just put it in the supersearch and get ready for an interesting process and read.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: radriano
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM

You know, if we sanitize everything the world will be a very boring place.


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: nutty
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 07:11 PM

OH Kat - I really was hoping that this thread was going to avoid recommending the kind of censorship used by C. Sharp and S.Baring-Gould when they "cleaned-up" and "sanitised" British Folk Songs.

If we use that arguement for not singing songs about fox - hunting and whaling, then why not object to songs about child employment , coal mining , slavery ,war and all other occupations and activities where death was brought about by the inhumanity of one living creature to another

We cannot change History and make it politically correct


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 05:23 PM

They may be wonderful sounding and traditional and all of that, but I don't want to hear them. So what if I am a big softie and I feel a physical pain in my heart when I hear about the killing of animals?

Someone said there are so many of them it would be silly to ban them all. I don't care if you ban, wouldn't want that to happen, BUT there are so many OTHERS equally as beautiful in tune, etc. it is not that hard to find something else to sing which doesn't glorify man's sickening penchant for killing creatures, for sport or food. And, not I do not eat meat.

Some friends of mine sing at school a lot. The kids, who've all worked on save the whale type projects, would get very upset when they sang the old whaling songs. Now, they explain about those days and tell about the old words, but they sing a slightly "folk-processed" version in which the whale gets a fighting chance and lives. Later on the kids, if they are interested, will understand that it was a way of life and commerce of the past to be understood in context. In the meantime, their love of nature and care for all of the planet's critters remain in force.

katwhohasalsobeenhuntingaLONGtimeagowithacoupleofexes...goodriddance


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Zebedee
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 05:01 PM

"Eeny meanie miny moe. Catch a nigger by his toe. If he hollers let him go. Eeny meanie miny moe"

Despite disliking fox hunting and whaling, Brass Monkey's version of 'The Foxhunt' and the Watersons version of 'Greenland Whale Fisheries' are amongst my favourite songs, but I don't think I'd ever like to hear the above mentioned rhyme put into song, however traditional the context.

In other words, I don't know

Ed


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: wdyat12
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 04:35 PM

Hawker,

You're right foxhunting is a tradition, so is whale hunting to the Japenese. Killing animals for meat is one thing, but killing animals for sport is another matter. I'm glad I'm not a fox or a whale. I'm glad people don't kill each other for the sport of it or do they?

wdyat12


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: radriano
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 04:26 PM

I have struggled with this topic myself over the years. I do sing and enjoy hunting songs. Someone once told me that there was a big difference between the English nobles' hunt and the hunting of the common man. I think most people think of the nobles hunting when they think of fox hunting, for example. The common man's hunt had more to do with a respite from the boredom of everyday life. A chance to be with friends and, without a doubt, to hunt and kill something.

I've never hunted myself but it does seem to me that hunting is quite unfair. Maybe if the fox had a gun too, perhaps? Yet it seems that hunting is perhaps part of the human psyche or some vestigal remnant of our past. However, there are too many good hunting songs with great choruses.

Richard


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Subject: Being offensive...
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 04:18 PM

If the song is sung because it is a good song, then it's fine, provided the audience are not likely to be offended.

If the song is sung to deliberately cause offence, it is irrelevant what the subject matter of the song is - it is offensive to sing it!

An acquaintance of mine used to sing an extremely funny song about Robin Hood, where the verses deliberately did not rhyme:

The friar's name was Tuck
And he did not give a damn...

For some strange reason, he thought it was funnier to put the rhymes back in. He just wanted to cause offence.

It's our duty as performers to make the audience feel comfortable - the whole essence of entertainment. There are perverse people in the world who enjoy being offended, and people who are able to tread the fine line between entertaining such people and not being at all entertaining to anyone!!


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM

Nah, nothing wrong with singing about it. Until foxes learn English. Then there might be some hurt feelings. ;)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: nutty
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 03:56 PM

I sing songs of things that have happened in the past - we cannot transfer the values we hold now and condemn our ancestors for acting in the way they did

Then was then - now is now

If we are now going to censor what was written etc in the past life would make no sense - well certainly not to me
I can sing a hunting song without any qualms but I would never go hunting


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: sledge
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 03:46 PM

I think there are too many good songs to be discarded on a whim, if you are singing to an audience that may not think like that, then a little preamble prior to the song with explanation.

If they still don't get it afterwards then what the hell, some people just like to whine and whinge.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: scouse
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 03:42 PM

Honest opinion... Sing 'em I do do! I don't particullary agree with Hunting but I hate Politcal correctness but I love the songs and have been singing them for the past 30 years and sod any one who tell me not to sing about the English,Scotish or Welsh tradition.Not to mention the Irish....... who were great lovers of the chase.Ever fancied walking up to Peter Bellamy if he was alive.(God Bless him.) and telling him not to sing Innocent Hare. I think I know what the answer would be. Luv Scouse


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Subject: RE: Fox hunting songs - right or wrong!!!!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 03:34 PM

Although I consider killing for pleasure to be fundamentally wrong, I have no objection at all to traditional hunting songs; they are products of their time, and should be seen as such.  A modern hunting song might be an entirely different matter.

Malcolm


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