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Any songbook publishers here? Need help

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Pinetop Slim 10 Feb 01 - 04:47 PM
katlaughing 11 Feb 01 - 01:15 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 11 Feb 01 - 07:45 AM
Pinetop Slim 11 Feb 01 - 03:31 PM
katlaughing 11 Feb 01 - 05:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 01 - 06:20 PM
Bob Bolton 11 Feb 01 - 09:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Feb 01 - 08:03 PM
Bob Bolton 12 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM
Bob Bolton 12 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 13 Feb 01 - 12:06 AM
Lin in Kansas 13 Feb 01 - 06:14 AM
Anglo 13 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM
Pinetop Slim 13 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 01 - 02:28 PM
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Subject: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 10 Feb 01 - 04:47 PM

I need to put together a pocket songbook in a 3-and-three-quarter-inch by 6-and-three-quarter-inch format and wondered if anybody has experience with a project of this type. There's a lot of nifty software available, but nothing I've sampled so far allows me to manipulate the type as much as I'd like.
The goal is a book in keeping with with the tradition of "For All the Songs,""Come Let Us Sing" and others put together -- or inspired -- by the Council of Southern Mountain Workers.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 01:15 AM

Slim, take a look at the thread on preserving an old fiddler's/composer's works...it's a recent one, should show up if you refresh the threads with the date set for a couple of days. There wasn't anything specific as far as size goes, but a lot of experience and maybe someone you could PM for more info.

kat


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 07:45 AM

I love Microsoft Word, but it can't do that.

For that sort of thing, Word Perfect seems ideal.

You do it up on a Landscape Page (Sideways) and sub-divide it. Once you're finished inputting all the text and formatting of it, including a cover page/illustration, you can print it as a booklet.

WordPerfect then takes care of all the positioning to get it to print so you have the COVER and the last page together, with the first page and the second-to-last page on the next page, etc. Note, you must have the pages (including cover and last page/back cover, totalling a multiple of four. Note, you can print just the odds and then re-insert the paper to print on the back-side of the paper.

It REALLY works well.

I've used it for printing a 122 page Carol and Christmas Song book (for church)among others.

It does the same in both Windows AND Linux versions. Everything is in different spots, but it works the same.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 03:31 PM

Sounds like good advice. Thanks very much.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 05:44 PM

George, did I miss something obvious in Word Perfect?

I tried to put together a booklet that way, typed in all of my info, formatted it, etc., chose landscape, chose two-sided print book option, and printed. When I went to assemble, the pages were printed exactly in the order I'd typed, which made them all out of whack.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 06:20 PM

I put little song books of stuff I've written together from time to time, about 30 pages.

I've found it best to combine computers and paste-ups.

So I'll type the pages into the computer, make up galley proofs, and then cut them up and paste them on to the pages, together with any pictures - or music, if I was using music. Then make a cleaned up photocopy of two A5 pages, on A4 paper, still which I then turn into a two sided photocopy of four A5 pages, on A4 paper. Then I use this to print off as many pages as I want (photocopy of off-print), collate, staple with a long-necked stapler, and trim the edges withy a guillotine.

All that last stuff could be done by the people who do the printing, but they'd charge, and I like keeping then whole thing in my own hands.

I suppose it would be possible to cut out the paste-ups and do that on screen - that's how professional printers do it these days. But they've got specialised computers often with extra-big monitors and highly sophisticated programmes. But with an ordinary sized monitor, and the kind of computer programmes, and computer skills I've got, I think that'd be a real pain. And with paste-ups I think you get a better feeling of how it'll look like and feel. And I like doing it. Cow-gum smells great too.

Working out the type-size and the line-length, and which pages are printed next-door to each other, and which back on each other - that all takes a bit of fiddling around, especially the first time. Might be worth making up a blank mock-up, writing in all the page numbers, and then dismantle it and use it as a guide. But it's basically pretty straightforward really. Just stick to the old carpenter's rule - measure everything twice and cut once.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 11 Feb 01 - 09:45 PM

G'day Pinetop Slim,

MS Word and Wordperfect are basically word processors - an electronic analogue of a fancy typewriter. Initially, there was a necessity to use a Publishing program to do publishing (PageMaker, then QuarkXpress ... and at the bargain end MS Publisher - which I have used for years for all sorts of magazines, pamphlets, posters and music books).

Lately a lot of manipulative features of MS Publisher have 'leaked' back into MS Word ... if you know how to find them - let alone use them. One that has yet to migrate is "Booklet" creation, so you need at least MS Publisher (often included in MS Office Suites along with MS Word).

McGrath: I grew up in cut & paste, but there is nothing in cut & paste that can't be done in electronic programs ... far better, with greater control ... and a bloody sight less sticky!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 08:03 PM

I grew up with hot metal, before they had stick and paste. I always see that as the fancy modern way I've adjusted to.

And keeping things organised on a 15 inch monitor get's too damn fiddly when your dealing with a few dozen pages that all have to be coordinated with each other. I'd sooner spread my work over a big table, and combine my technologies. Write in the headlines with a felt pen sometimes.

I'd sooner drive a car with manual gears than an automatic. Different srokes for different folks.

Anyway sticky can be fun.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM

G'day again McGrath,

The point about a properly working booklet is that you don't have to see all the pages at once. You can see the two pages that will be next to each other in the final layout ... and that is the important view for fine tuning. The program will print a final, imposed version on whatever sheet size you need for the printer - or can go directly to a modern (electronically aware) printer - by email.

You can wax nostalgic about the good old days, but sending a magazine or booklet off by email to the printer .. and having the colour proof dropped on your desk by a courier 2 hours later was the stuff of deepest fantasy 20 years ago!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM

G'day again McGrath,

The point about a properly working booklet is that you don't have to see all the pages at once. You can see the two pages that will be next to each other in the final layout ... and that is the important view for fine tuning. The program will print a final, imposed version on whatever sheet size you need for the printer - or can go directly to a modern (electronically aware) printer - by email.

You can wax nostalgic about the good old days, but sending a magazine or booklet off by email to the printer .. and having the colour proof dropped on your desk by a courier 2 hours later was the stuff of deepest fantasy 20 years ago!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 12:06 AM

Katlaughing, did you specify it to be printed as a booklet? To get there, you have to press/Click on Print. When this opens up into a dialogue box, one of the buttons there is for Options

Under options one of them is booklet. I usually do one of two methods. One is to print ALL the pages. This prints on one side of a piece of paper, and then you can run every second page through to match. Otherwise, you can print it two side, by JUST printing the Odd Pages, then print the Even pages. With some printers, you would have to reverse the order of the pages before you print the other side of the page.

If you are, then, perhaps another question, what is the version of WordPerfect you are using?

The versions I have used were WP 6.0 and WP 8.0 (Windows and Linux).

McGrath - I've done that! I prefer this method, thanks.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 06:14 AM

John in Kansas - bootleg on LIK's hookup.
The problem mentioned by Pinetop Slim was
that programs he has looked at don't allow
the font control he's looking for. I don't see
that as a problem with any decent word
processor.

If he wants to include music scores, it's a major
deal. Most of the score programs I've seen
have very clunky text capabilities. In fact,
I've discarded a couple of fairly expensive
programs for that reason -- the scores
exploded every time I tried to add decent
notes, comments, or more than a couple of
verses of lyrics.
I'm currently using "Rhapsody," which is a little better,
but the publisher went belly-up about 4 years ago,
and I don't know if it's still available.
If this is the problem, then
the discussion about Word vs WordunPerfect
is academic.

Additionally, I don't know of a music score
program that allows more than one 'score'
on a page, which is a good argument in
favor of the simple cut and paste method.

If this is a small booklet, the best and simplest
procedure is to print all of the individual
pages (and paste them up into 'master'
sheets if necessary) that can be copied. The
master sheets generally do not need to be
the final size. You can make the printed
area the size you want (and leave the rest of
the page blank), or make the master larger
(in proportion) and reduce at the time of
printing.

It is generally simpler to make one-sided
masters and print one sided, then turn the
copies over in the copy machine and print
the other side from the other masters. Just
figure out which goes on the back side of
what (and which side up). Of course, if you
mess up one, all of the following sheets
will be out of order (or mismatched). Same
thing happens if the copier eats one sheet –
master or copy. Print small batches.

In the real book world, 8, 16, 32, or 64 or more
pages will be printed in really strange
order, crosswise and topsy-turvy, on each
side of a v-e-r-y large sheet, which is
folded so that everything comes together in
the right order. The problem for the
amateur producer is that the pages need to
be cut to size AFTER they are folded,
because the fold takes up space.

Almost any small job printer could take care of
this for you, and the best thing to give
him/her is a separate sheet for each page.
Let the printer take care of getting them in
the right order. – but talk to your printer
first. A printer will probably want the
masters larger than the printed sheet, with
crop marks. If you choose to use a pro
printer who will take a computer file, he
probably will want the file in page order –
he will have the software to rearrange the
pages into folios. If you need more than
about 50 copies, professional printing may
be really reasonable. At a nickel or so a
sheet for copy service, a 50 page booklet is
a couple of bucks. You might get it printed,
bound, and trimmed for about that,
depending on quantity.

If you want to do it yourself, try to keep the
number of sheets in a group small. Use
many groups if needed, and if you can, try
to find a really heavy duty paper shear so
that you can cut to size after folding and
binding.

The problems discussed above, about how to get
things in the right order, depend more on
your printer than on the WP software you
might be using. Unfortunately, if you want
to do a good job now, you usually have to
do some thinking about what YOU have to
work with.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Anglo
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM

I'm with Bob on this one - I've done books for a long time, for various publishers, using PageMaker to handle the text and layout. It's easier and more intuitive than a word processor, and better suited to my simplistic computer skills. I do the music in Finale (any music notation program that can export eps, or even tiff, will do fine) then import into PageMaker where I can see the music, add text, add any verses, ad page numbers and all that sort of thing, and view the whole thing at various enlargements to make sure it's the way I want it. Good luck, whatver you decide.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM

You've pretty well hit it, Lin in Kansas: The problem is finding software to transcribe the music at the desired size. Every program I've test-driven would be fine with a large format, but balks at 3 3/4 inch by 6 3/4. None comes with a template that size; those that allow user-defined pages become illegible or nearly so when adjusted to the short line length and short page.
A songster published around 1935 shows that hot metal printers had solved the problem (McGrath's not surprised, I bet) with fonts that provided small clefs, short stems on the notes and short descenders and ascenders for the lyrics. The lyrics are only 8 or 9 points, in a serif type, but remarkably easy to read. Later samples indicate to me that similar fonts are available for offset printing (these songsters are loaded with crooked type, McGrath. Surprised?) but don't seem to have been picked up in the font catalogues of any of the tested software.
Rhapsody sounds promising, but as you've pointed out, it's no longer available.


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Subject: RE: Any songbook publishers here? Need help
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 02:28 PM

Ah, but it's not just the pages that will be next to each other in the final lay-out, it's the pages that will be next to each other in the booklet as well.

And I know it can all be done through the computer. The same way it's possible to dispense with hand-tools entirely when you're making things, and just use power-tools. I just find it easier mixing and matching. Rocks can still be quite useful hammers even today, in certain situations. That's not being nostalgic for the stone age, it's using whatever technology happens to be most convenient.


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