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I'm not anti Irish.. honest

Manitas 04 Feb 01 - 11:06 AM
Dave Wynn 04 Feb 01 - 10:51 AM
Fiolar 04 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,MacTattie 04 Feb 01 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,JTT 04 Feb 01 - 07:07 AM
pict 03 Feb 01 - 09:05 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 03 Feb 01 - 09:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 01 - 08:51 PM
Irish sergeant 03 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM
Dave Wynn 03 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,colwyn dane 03 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM
carolee 03 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM
Big Mick 03 Feb 01 - 12:01 PM
Irish sergeant 03 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Ribbit (at work) 03 Feb 01 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,John Hill 03 Feb 01 - 06:35 AM
Snuffy 03 Feb 01 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,parked for a bit... or a wee bit or a 'tad' 02 Feb 01 - 11:01 PM
Big Mick 02 Feb 01 - 10:30 PM
Dave Wynn 02 Feb 01 - 09:14 PM
sophocleese 02 Feb 01 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,surfin and laughing my ??? off 02 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM
Big Mick 02 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM
Dave Wynn 02 Feb 01 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,petr 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,petr 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,prof 02 Feb 01 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,prof 02 Feb 01 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,prof 02 Feb 01 - 07:45 PM
Dave Wynn 02 Feb 01 - 06:18 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Feb 01 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,surfin still 02 Feb 01 - 05:21 PM
radriano 02 Feb 01 - 04:36 PM
pict 02 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 01 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 02 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,John 02 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM
Biskit 02 Feb 01 - 01:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM
Blackcatter 02 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM
Hobie 02 Feb 01 - 01:11 PM
sophocleese 02 Feb 01 - 01:07 PM
sophocleese 02 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM
Fiolar 02 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM
English Jon 02 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM
Bert 02 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,John Hill 02 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Manitas
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:06 AM

Fiolar wrote:

Guest, JTT - you probably mean Phil Coulter.

No, it's definitely Colclough. I met him once,I think he's from Essex and it is about a holiday he spent in Ireland.

I thought the Irish version of the Rose of Allendale was called the Rose of Aranmore?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:51 AM

Mr McGrath of Harlow I read some facinating stuff about St Ninian (of Dumfries and Galloway fame) who setup a pilgrims route (the date escapes me but around 600 AD seems to ring bells). He travelled throughout Europe but established a route across the English (or possibly Scots then) mainland right into Ireland via Galloway paticularly the Isle of Whithorn (which isn't an Isle but a peninsular).

This became a kind of pilgrim and trade route bringing all the benefits of cross culture from Europe , mainland England / Scotland into Ireland and therefore BACK again. He became quite a famous person in his day. I capitalise BACK because with this route established as early as this date the intercouse in music and other culture like art and craft would have been arterial and duplex. This would make the determination of which belonged to who(m) difficult if not impossible from the resulting homogenous creation.

It could explain , in a little way , the noticable similarities in the North East English / South West Scots and Irish music and instruments in particular and then again reflected into European music in general.

Well....It facinated me....

Spot.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM

Sorry fellows - but Allendale is in Northhumberland and is more than likely the place mentioned in the song, especially when you consider the words "When Mary left her highland home." To Guest, JTT - you probably mean Phil Coulter.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,MacTattie
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:14 AM

Dear guest JTT. The "Rose of Allendale" is a ship.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:07 AM

The original poster is not altogether correct. Rose of Allendale is about Katherine O'Shea, Parnell's wife - Allendale is his house in Wicklow. Danny Boy is Irish. Mountains of Mourne was written by Percy French, who was Irish last time I looked.

Song for Ireland is a song about Ireland by someone called Phil Colclough - I've heard the song on the radio but don't know anything about it. Someone will know, I'm sure.

Peggy Gordon is certainly sung in Ireland as a traditional song; I don't know its provenance.

The Shoals of Herring is, of course, English, by Ewan McColl, and a great song it is too.

Fiddler's Green - don't know where it comes from but the phrasing certainly sounds English.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: pict
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:05 PM

Modern Scotland is made up mainly of Picts,Gaels,Britons,Angles and Norsemen with bits of Norman French,Flemish and Asian for an extra bit of flavour probably largest ingredients first.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:04 PM

Rick hit the nail on the head when he put "commercial" in caps. Some publishers "pass off" songs as whatever they think will sell best. And, unlike Big Mick, I think that's worth a grumble.

If I bought a book of English songs and found it full of songs by Tom Paxton (who happens to spend a fair amount of time in England) I'd be a bit miffed - if only because I hadn't got what I was expecting. Likewise if I bought a book of Irish songs and found it had songs like "Shoals of Herring" (written by a Lancastrian who claimed to be Scottish) I'd be slightly annoyed. Beside me as I type, there is a copy of David Hammond's booklet, "Songs of Belfast." It's quite a shoddy effort in somes ways, but - lo and behold! - it contains exactly the sort of songs I'd expect from the title.

Fiolar, I think you misread the first post -language didn't come into it.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:51 PM

Nah, I wasn't suggesting it was just Catholics got shot in times of trouble in Scotland, far from it.

But that line in Danny Boyabout saying an Ave rather implies it's Catholics involved. I thought I'd stick that in, in case anybody thought that fact might mean that the song had to be set in Ireland. Of course it doesn't, since there were always parts of the Highlands and Islands which stayed as Catholic as most parts of Ireland.

The Scots came from Ireland in late Roman times, and pushed the Picts (and the Romans) around, and the word itself is just another word for Irish I believe (would that be in Pictish?). But then were a whole bunch of other ones came across from the European mainland later, and somehow the Northern half of the Kingdom of Northumbria ended up as part of Scotland (with the Southern half becoming Geordies and suchlike).

The Scots are as mixed up "racially" as the English or the Irish - and all the better for it. And so is the music, thank God.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM

Spot; I enjoy your posts. Keep barking up the tree. Even if its the wrong one.;-)Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM

Hello GUEST..Parked for a bit..wee bit ..tad etc. etc. etc. etc.

It appears that I may have inadvertantly hit a nerve on one of my postings....Please sign in as a member and we can discus this. This way things may get aired and resolved.

On the other hand please let me know which nerve I hit. I hate drilling where there is no oil.....

Spot.(the Red Airdale) (spelling spelling...My greatest failure...)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM

Hi,

Cole Porter 'borrowed' sounds, styles and techniques from different parts of the world.
For some of his better known songs he mixed an exotic musical-brew.

The 'foundation' was Eastern music (DEI).
The French taught him to lighten his writing.
The Africans gave the basic beat.
The Italians supplied the value of pure melody.
The English - a warning not to speed up a tune for the sake of jazz.

"There's nothing new in the world except the music you don't know."
---Myself (with thanks to Harry S. Truman)---

Just my 2percent and roughly on topic [OjO].

Colwyn.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: carolee
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM

Who cares anyway? If the song's good, that is all that matters. Is a song written in Ireland by and Englishman, but using Irish 'idiom' Irish? Or one written in England by a second generation irish etc etc etc. It doesn't matter. Personally I love Irish songs. I love English songs. I love Scottish songs. I love Geordie songs. In fact I love any song that appeals to me. I know it is law, but I don't agree with copywright. Songs are about communicating and shouldn't have strings attached.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:01 PM

Hey John, ...........read your last post...........I rest my case. ..............


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM

Being American and trying to get my hands on as much Irish and Scottish traditional music as I can, I don't recollect specific incidents of english or Scottish music being marked as Irish. Yes, it has been included in books and Recordings "Banks of Sicily" and D-Day Dodgers" both by Hamish Henderson are good examples. In Fact "D-Day Dodgers" borrowed its tune from "Lili Marlene" by Norbert Schulz. You're losing the point if you're pissing and moaning about ethnicity of the music. We're all here because we love music. Period. Kindest Reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Ribbit (at work)
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:45 AM

As the Clancy Brothers once said "ya fellas want sides on everything" :) Ribbit


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:35 AM

The point isn't about the Irish borrowing songs.. we all do that. Its about marketing them as Irish. Most of the songs I have a main beef about are recent songs which are copyrighted and everyone knows who wrote them. I was just looking at a home page for Pete St. John. On it there is a "List of Some Irish Artistes who recorded Pete St John songs" ... these include James Last and Guy Mitchell.... I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:32 AM

A song qualifies to be Irish in the same way as soccer players do!


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,parked for a bit... or a wee bit or a 'tad'
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:01 PM

Spot loves attention, doncha ...

The only thing you ever shot was pool, or darts

People who shoot b?????dy things or People are so sorry, they sit indoors all the time trying to forget or they get blindo all the time.

tell you what Spot

Chew a Bone


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:30 PM

Well, Sophocleese, I will tell you why. It isn't about the question, it is about the tone. Here are two direct examples:And don't anyone give me the crap about "Well thy are.....and ....actually bother to listen to is set in Scotland anyway.... The poster then ends with a comment about the expected backlash. Posts like this are designed to get a rise. If a poster started with "I have noticed that the Irish seem to borrow a lot of tunes, and I have often wondered why?" or something that showed an interest in an answer instead of the reaction, then I would say that intellectual curiosity was in play. This type of post makes me believe that this is just a smartassed question from someone that has an axe to grind with the popularity of Irish music and culture.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 09:14 PM

Guest Surfin and laughing etc etc.....I wish you wouldn't use language like that in front of the pups....Wufff indeed...disgustin'

Spot


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:55 PM

I am amused at all the angst about the intentions of the original poster. Would be people be wondering about his sanity if he had said he was wondering why books of English Folk Songs always had stuff from Scotland or Ireland? Its a legitimate question to wonder why songs that are known to have been written in country A are included in books of folksongs from country B. It seems that several people are reading more into the question than is actually there.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,surfin and laughing my ??? off
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM

Hey Spot ...

Wufff...


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM

Let me begin by saying that I have not read this whole thread, but I must ask the original poster what the point is? The Irish have been great borrowers of songs, tunes and musical instruments as long as there has been an Ireland. It is because of our Celtic and Bardic culture and its traditions. Doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Look at an Irish trad band today. It will usually have an "Irish" bouzouki. Our people borrowed this in the late 60's (I think I am right on the time frame?), changed the body style, added a course of strings and monkeyed with the tuning. Soon the Donal Lunny's of the world had adapted it to the tunes and made it our own. Guitar is used by most, but it is a second half of the twentieth century introduction as well. Most Irish singers sing Woody Guthrie songs, and the Chieftains will record in any number of traditions. Davey Spillane plays blues and jazz on the Uillean pipes like it was invented to do so. The point is that Irish tradition loves and honors good music, and will borrow it in an ongoing manner as long as there is Irish music being made by Irish musicians. It is because music is what makes us tick, and what allows us to tell the world who we are and how we see things. So I return to my orginal question. What is the point? The tone of the original post suggests that it irritates the poster. Sorry, my friend, but maybe you need to examine why you have ceili envy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:40 PM

Forgive the irony..But I bet that the very first musical note ever played in the universe could be traced back to Ireland.

Spot. Thinking ....


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM

I think that traditional Irish music has to include the American Irish music. People like O'Neill who collected many tunes & songs that otherwise would have been lost, or fiddle players such as Michael Coleman who inspired a generation of musicians in Ireland with his recordings. and others such as Ed Reavy who came from Cavan but settled in Philadelphia for most of his life and wrote many great fiddle tunes. Or for that matter Irish American fiddlers and composers like Liz Carroll. I certainly agree with all of those who say that the fastest way to clear an "Irish Bar" is to play real Irish tunes or sing real Irish songs. petr


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:35 PM

I think that traditional Irish music has to include the American Irish music. People like O'Neill who collected many tunes & songs that otherwise would have been lost, or fiddle players such as Michael Coleman who inspired a generation of musicians in Ireland with his recordings. and others such as Ed Reavy who came from Cavan but settled in Philadelphia for most of his life and wrote many great fiddle tunes. Or for that matter Irish American fiddlers and composers like Liz Carroll. I certainly agree with all of those who say that the fastest way to clear an "Irish Bar" is to play real Irish tunes or sing real Irish songs. petr


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,prof
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:30 PM

Don't forget that a lot of these tunes have been pinched from the Irish in the first place! -ie., I understand that most of the sea shanties were adapted from Irish jigs. Even Scotland the Brave has a gaelic title in Ireland! And the Irish have been creating music for an awfully long time: Gerald of Wales, who WAS anti-Irish, highly praised their music in the 1100's! The Irish have been behind much of the development of modern popular music(eg, Foster in the USA)and many of the members of British pop bands are of Irish descent(ie. the Beatles, Culture Club, Oasis, etc.).


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,prof
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:20 PM

Don't forget that a lot of these tunes have been pinched from the Irish in the first place! -ie., I understand that most of the sea shanties were adapted from Irish jigs. Even Scotland the Brave has a gaelic title in Ireland! And the Irish have been creating music for an awfully long time: Gerald of Wales, who WAS anti-Irish, highly praised their music in the 1100's! The Irish have been behind much of the development of modern popular music(eg, Foster in the USA)and many of the members of British pop bands are of Irish descent(ie. the Beatles, Culture Club, Oasis, etc.).


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,prof
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:45 PM


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:18 PM

I take exception to your comment McGrath of Harlow "Highland Catholcs getting shot by the redcoats and all" another example of you getting it wrong. We shot any bloody thing that moved in the highland clearings...;-)

Spot.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:00 PM

John, the fastest way to clear out bar patrons from an "Irish bar" in Toronto would be to sing real Irish folk songs. No matter how unskillfully performed, they want to hear "Danny Boy" and "The Unicorn". Of all the fine contemporary Irish music written, only about 10 songs get their interest. Most of the Irish songbooks that I've seen which are COMMERCIALLY available, are generally pub repertoire in orientation.

Rick


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,surfin still
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 05:21 PM

Oh well, the Irish are to blame and the Scots are not gettin off either LOL.

Seriously can any one tell me what if any difference there is - besides the accent - between an Irish, Scottish, English or Welsh or what ever, Smith ?

Now that I have raised the obvious question, ie the mingling of the races of Britian for over a 1000 years, what would the difference be if Conelly was born in Cardiff or Edinburgh or Dublin? None I suspect.

Being IRISH scot I know only too well all about the Football rivalry and such, can it be we are applying the same rules to Folk Music?

Sure there are songs with claimed National origins, but again what does that prove? I have written a few things and witnessed them being tore apart and rehashed into other weak songs by wannabe songwriters. So nothing can sway me toward a National origin most of the time since the writer could have taken the entire song from where ever.

Nor do I not buy the assertion that a Song is Xish because it was published in Xville in 1423 and 1/2.

The Derry Air, well so what. I am fair sure if I poked around in Piping circles I would find many a Theme that is similar and probably not even British at all as well as being at least 10 thousand years older LOL.

Lyrics and Irish folk bands, I sure do agree they know how to do em well. These stories about songs comming from Americas make me howl. It is like Jay Ungar and OCarrolan, his compositions are just variations etc, but Turloch probably variated what he heard. I guess that is all there is to it.

Antrim and the Scots, well I am learning something new everyday. I always thought the Scoti invaded Ireland first then a while later the Mainland.

Nah Pict I don't buy the Antrim bit, besides there are Mc Donalds AND Cambells all over the South of the Island.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: radriano
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 04:36 PM

I've often wondered about this myself, John. A lot of good points have already been made by others in this thread but I wonder if some of the publishers aren't being very careful about what they're doing sometimes.

However, there has been much interplay between Scotland, England, and Ireland - sometimes distictions are blurred with regard to songs and their origins. The popularity of an English or Scottish (or American) song in Ireland doesn't take away from its validity. It is true that the Irish can often popularize a song from somewhere else but do it in a very Irish style. Then others hearing the song think it's Irish.

But sometimes I wonder if I'm missing the point of it all. I was attending a song workshop in 1984 at the Willie Clancy Festival. One of the guest singers, an Irishman, introduced his song as being English. He sang the song in a very Irish style - it was beautiful. Later one of the people taking the workshop complained that "he didn't come all this way to hear English songs." But the Irish song tradition has been influenced by English & Scottish songs, and vice versa. What then does someone mean when they say "Irish song"? Does true Irish song only refer to Sean Nos singing? Is a song really Irish if it's sung in English?

I'd much rather just enjoy the tradition of singing which is influenced by a lot of factors. Wouldn't we miss out on a lot of good songs if we imposed strict criteria on what songs should be sung where and by whom?

By the way, John, Fiddler's Green was written by John Conelly, an Englishman, yet it's almost become an Irish song by popularity.

Richard


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: pict
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM

In my experience most people who aren't Scottish or Irish can't really tell the difference between the music of Ireland or Scotland and it's very understandable I have a Clare friend who very nearly came to blows with me over my assertation that Peggy Gordon was a Scottish song.The late great Seumas Ennis once learnt a tune from a Barra man about the children of Lir who were changed into swans for 900 years by Eva his second wife,several years later a group of Irish musicians were at the feis in Barra and one of them a piper played the tune,an old man said that it was a Barra tune but the Irishman refuted this and said he had learnt it from Seumas Ennis the old man then told that it was he himself that had taught the tune to Ennis by singing it to him.The story of the children of Lir is obviously Irish in origin but then again the Scots originally came from Antrim so was the tune brought to Scotland or did it originate there because of the shared tradition.The Irish are so good at marketing themselves that it is easy for foreign songs to be thought of as Irish they are famed for their musicality and deservedly so,often the Irish flavours added to a tune are so powerful they can obscure the origins of the music entirely.They may steal the silver but they always give it back polished.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:17 PM

Nothing I can see that implies that Danny Boy "is set in Scotland anyway" - I suppose it could be, since they've got pipes and glens there as well, and Highland Catholcs getting shot by the redcoats and all. But I can't see anything to indicate a Caledonian provenance.

Of course the classic example of a song that's become identified as Irish is the Wild Rover, collected in East Anglia.

I can't imagine asking songs for passports before I sang them.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM

I suspect a large part of the answer is that we Irish, for our sins, are the one English-speaking country which still retains a semi-oral tradition in that language. We take up these songs, knock them into shape and re-export them!

I'm reminded of being asked many years ago, by a very polite Englsishman, what the Irish did about the "Irish jokes" then very popular. "We tell them about Kerrymen.", sez I. "And what do the poor Kerrymen do?" sez our friend. "They put them in books and sell them to Englishmen!", sez I.

Regards

p.s. John: "The Mountains of Mourne"?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:19 PM

That's the way I have seen it. Song's such as "The Garden Song", by an American, Dave Mallett have ended up in those little compilations because the likes of Makem and Clancy have recorded them. But it is a part of the folk process to borrow and assume as your own, songs from other cultures. I think Archie Fisher used a Basque melody for his "Dark Eyed Molly", but I'll always regard that song as being Scottish. Eric Bogle's"No Man's Land" is usually in those books as well. I always thought it was an Irish song because I became familiar with it in pubs in Ireland. Is it a Scottish song, or an Australian song because Bogle has a dual nationality? Mind you, I wouldn't mind a bit more research when they put those songbooks together. In the case of Mallett's song, they did not even attribute authorship to him, and said that the song had come over from America.

John


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM

Could it be that groups such as the dubliners and dublin city ramblers or performers such as Paddy Reilly have recorded all those songs listed plus others of similar origin and simply by assosiation many regard them as Irish?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Biskit
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:28 PM

;)


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM

No matter where they come from, if they get sung in Ireland people tend to assume they're Irish. And they're right. If you live in Ireland, you become Irish soon enough, and that goes for the songs as well.

The most useful collection of songs I know are the four Ossian Publications books "Folksongs and Ballads popular in Ireland". And one of the things that makes it so useful is that it doesn't set out to impose some kind of ethnic purity when it comes to the songs it includes, which would mean it excluded the ones you were after.

There's plenty of collections of traditional material as well. There's room for all sorts.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

greetings all

It mostly comes back to two things: ignorance and marketing. Ignorance in that many of the compiler or the books as well an performers and fans don't know the origins of the songs (and to some extent don't care). Marketing in that the work Irish has been "hot" for close to a decade and anything connected with it will sell.

Once again it comes down to definition. John Hill, you seem to have a definition and seem to want to enforce it. But who says your definition is correct? How many songs written outside of Ireland were STILL written by Irish people? If an Irish person writes a song isn't it still Irish? Also, if I, an American with little or no Irish heritage write a song in a traditional Irish style and even write it about Ireland - isn't it Irish?

I discovered a while back that music and rules only mix occasionally and only when it makes people happy. If your upset about something - ignore it or try and spend time educating people about your opinions - I'm sure they'll appreciate a disertation morre than some songs . . .

pax yall


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Hobie
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:11 PM

I think it's a convience thing, when we as musicians try to explain to someone who doesn't really know what were about it's alot easier to say we do irish music than sit there and explain....well, it's hard to explain.

Hobie


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:07 PM

geez lots of goofs there. "Celtic" not "CeEtic". PLease add commas wherever they are needed.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM

I'm afraid that the answer "Well they are popular in Ireland." Although not a good answer as far as you are concerned is probably the most correct. American and Canadian Folk Song books have a lot of songs that originated in different places on the other side of the Atlantic. Also a lot of them may get printed as Irish because people that don't know much of the history of the song associate them with Ireland, its a marketing game. I like to sing songs from all over the Britsh Isles but generally say that I sing songs from England and Scotland because otherwise people assume I sing a lot of Irish or "CeEtic" music which doesn't really do justice to the fact that I sing what I like wherever it comes from.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Fiolar
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:43 PM

Try listening to the songs of people like Joe Heaney one of the great Irish sean-nos singers to get the real flavour of Irish songs. As for the comment that many "Irish" songs are in "English" has it crossed your tiny mind that many of the people who wrote the originals had to earn a living and like most people had to satisfy the mass audience of the day? Take Thomas Moore for example the author of "Moore's Melodies" which include such numbers as "The Minstrel Boy", "The Harp that Once", "The Meeting of the Waters" and many others. If he had written them in Irish which at the time was a language which was regarded as alien by the then government, how many would be available today? Don't forget such great groups such as Clannad, Annuna, The Chieftains - shall I go on?


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: English Jon
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM

I'll Back you up on this. It's a bit silly, isn't it?

Having said that, Folk music/purity...not exactly hand in hand, nor should they be.

Someone should do a bit more research though... Anybody interested in English Fiddle tunes?

Best wishes

Jon and Jon's Cat


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Bert
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM

It's 'cos everyone in the world claims, or wants, to be part Irish.


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Subject: RE: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM

I was busking one day and was approached by a lovely old lady... she stood and listened to a few songs, mostly Canadian folk from the past 5 years or so... She stepped up to the case and while she was tossing in a few small bills asked me to play something Irish... Now I was gearing up to play Paddy's Green Shamrock Shore anyway, so I launched into it... She stood, listened, and applauded at the end... and was still there 2 or three songs later... She then asked me when I was gonna get to her request... I said that Paddy's Green had been for her, but I'd be happy to do more along that bent if she'd like... She said what she'd like is a REAL Irish song, not "that plastic paddy American crap" as she put it... I kinda chuckled and told her that she'd be more than welcome to suggest titles if she wanted... She started with "Whiskey In The Jar"...

But what the hell, I already had her money...

;-)


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Subject: I'm not anti Irish.. honest
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM

Can anyone explain to me why books of "Irish Songs" are full of stuff not written in Ireland at all. And don't anyone give me the crap about "Well thy are popular in Ireland"... I'm sorry I don't buy that at all. Books of English songs are not full of stuff like "Freight train" or The wild rover .. or Over the Sea to Sky.. or Now Westling winds"
Examples of "Irish songs" are "The Shoals of Herring, Peggy Gordon, High Germany, Fiddler's Green, Rose of Allandale"... and hundreds more like this.
Even "From Clare to here, The Mountains of Mourne and Song for Ireland" are all English, not to mention the lyrics to "Danny Boy" ... (again English) which, if you actually bother to listen to is set in Scotland anyway .
(Stands back and waits for backlash)


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