mudcat.org: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
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Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???

WyoWoman 30 Nov 00 - 10:19 PM
MMario 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 PM
Max 30 Nov 00 - 02:04 PM
Ferrara 30 Nov 00 - 01:59 PM
bbelle 30 Nov 00 - 01:45 PM
Ferrara 30 Nov 00 - 01:08 PM
NightWing 29 Nov 00 - 05:20 PM
annamill 29 Nov 00 - 02:34 PM
R! 28 Nov 00 - 09:33 PM
dwditty 28 Nov 00 - 07:00 AM
Song Dog 24 Nov 00 - 12:47 AM
Song Dog 24 Nov 00 - 12:40 AM
Alice 24 Nov 00 - 12:26 AM
katlaughing 24 Nov 00 - 12:15 AM
Alice 24 Nov 00 - 12:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 00 - 10:28 PM
katlaughing 23 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,CarolC (at her parent's house in Wheaton) 23 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM
hesperis 23 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM
Long Firm Freddie 23 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM
Lyrical Lady 23 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Liam's Brother 23 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 23 Nov 00 - 05:12 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Nov 00 - 04:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM
Mooh 23 Nov 00 - 10:19 AM
jets 23 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM
Jeri 23 Nov 00 - 09:47 AM
catspaw49 23 Nov 00 - 09:02 AM
Jon Freeman 23 Nov 00 - 08:05 AM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 11:37 PM
RichM 22 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM
Alice 22 Nov 00 - 09:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 00 - 08:49 PM
Jeri 22 Nov 00 - 08:48 PM
MMario 22 Nov 00 - 08:39 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 08:33 PM
Alice 22 Nov 00 - 07:54 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 00 - 07:18 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM
okthen 22 Nov 00 - 06:19 PM
Banjer 22 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 00 - 05:35 PM
Jon Freeman 22 Nov 00 - 05:27 PM
Song Dog 22 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 22 Nov 00 - 05:08 PM
mousethief 22 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: WyoWoman
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 10:19 PM

Banner ads don't make me twitch. Thinking of Max losing sleep because he's losing money does.

Jameson's Irish Whisky and Guinness Stout would be two naturals for the likes of us ... and, of course, music-related stuff like, uh, uhn ...

ww


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: MMario
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 PM

sorry max! good luck. hope the "fix" is easy and does indeed work with your programs.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Max
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:04 PM

Hey, more good news. Our ability to accept credit cards will shortly be suspended because Visa and Mastercard changed the industry standard for internet security reasons. The software we have been using for years in now illegal to use. But not to worry, because the upgrade is only $712.25 and all I have to do is cancel 2 merchant accounts and open another because the new software only works with 2 banks/processors in the whole wide world. Not to mention that I have no idea how this new software works or whether it works with our Web Servers or Cold Fusion or if I am going to have to buy new. Plus I will have to learn how to integrate the code that makes the mudcat commerce work with the new software....

So to sum up, we're talking about at very least $712.25, the 3 hours I've already blown, about 8 hours of research to come, several hours of programming, being on hold for 2 hours to cancel 2 merchant accounts, another hour opening a 3rd merchant account, a call to my bank to set up the direct deposit from the new merchant account... oh, and 10 minutes complaining in this message I just wrote.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Ferrara
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:59 PM

If we could get banner ads for the companies we deal with anyway, it could help the Mudcat.

If we remember to get to those companies via the Mudcat every single time.

I'm no help. I just don't buy on line. Though I may give in and order some zither strings from Lark in the Morning.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: bbelle
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:45 PM

Banner ads ... I ignore them. I do, however, purchase ALL my guitar gear online through marsmusic.com, musiciansfriend.com, elderly.com, fqms.com (First Quality Music Supplies), or FGM.com (Flatpick Guitar Magazine Mercantile.com). It would be nice to have a direct link.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Ferrara
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:08 PM

Thanks, guys. We are trying to send a kid to college on an income that's about $6,000 a year less than our outgo, so have been stingy about contributing to Mudcat. But it sure means a lot to us. If we can afford an ISP, we can afford to contribute to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: NightWing
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:20 PM

I don't mind banner ads either ... because I ignore them too (rather pointedly, in fact). And, as several people pointed out, that makes them worthless to the web site. So, Max, my check is on the way.

In fact, since I use PayMyBills.com, I have set up a monthly automatic check for the next 12 months. I know that PayMyBills *can* send e-payment, but I do not know how a "payee" can set that up. Perhaps they'll send Max the info along with the check.

Like PayPal (which I've never used), you have to give your bank account info to them. They do direct withdrawals from your checking account when you tell them to and for the amount you tell them to. They maintain records of your bill paying and you can download everything to your computer in several different formats (MS Excel and Quicken, for two).

I use PayMyBills for all my bills (except for my car insurance, strangely; just haven't got them set up with it yet) and haven't written a check for a bill (see above) in nearly a year.

It's worth a try. *shrug*

BB,
NightWing

P.S. If all the people who say they are going to send donations actually do, I might suggest that he could raise all the money he needs by announcing every six months or so that he's going to have to start putting up banner ads to pay for the 'Cat. ;>


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:34 PM

I just read an article that said that online buying is 25% down from what it was last year. Not good for Onstage, not good for Mudcat. The reason stated is that people are getting bored surfing the web. I don't know.

I use Paypal for my e-bay purchases and I'm very happy with it. It's easy and fast. Only you have to give them your bank account number, etc. You could open a bank account to be used only by Paypal though and make monthly deposits. It doesn't cost anything to belong to Paypal either. Maybe they charge the receiver or the website. I don't know that either. I like it though, not a bad setup.

I wouldn't mind banners. Maybe they'll have something I would like to buy.

Love, annamill


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: R!
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:33 PM

Like McGrath, I'd never clicked the Support Mudcat pic. I've read through this thread and agree that banner ads seem to be the solution. In the meantime, I detect a sense of urgency so I will be mailing a cheque tomorrow. I've only been here a short time but I'd hate to see the Mudcat disappear.

Stay well, Rowana


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: dwditty
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:00 AM

Just noticed this thread. Bottom line is we need to do lots of things to insure a steady stream of funds to support what we love. Banner ads would be fine - but they will only work if Mudcatters make them profitable for the advertisers. My opinion is that this proposition would be iffy at best. After a few months, advertisers who saw no revenue would discontinue their ads. Hope I am wrong. If banner ads are the way to go, and I have no problem with them, there are plenty of companies who would love to target a demographic like that found here. (BTW, Max, Stan Jay at Mandolin Bros. is a Penn State alum, so he make take an even keener interest in your efforts.) It would still require us to make it worth their while for advertisers to place ads here.

I like the idea of having a facility to hold benefit concerts with an admission on a periodic basis. Credit card payment, pay pal, or whatever, available at the door. We have some real live recording artists on this site who may be willing to "donate" their time on an occasional but regular basis.

Try this. Estimate your average monthly hours on the mudcat. In my case, the few cents per hour to get to a reasonable monthly donation sure seems like a bargain to me. It would be very helpful to have a facility to transfer funds automatically on the xxth of every month - thereby creating a steady stream. I understand the reservation about creating a situation where there are some that give and others that do not. If one were to throw out the fact that they are "putting up," they would demonstarte such small behavior that they could easily be ignored. I have spent the last 3 years on the finance committe at our church. There are tons of folks who "could" give more but don't. They are still welcomed.

In the meantime, it sounds like Max could use some help right now. If you are in a position to, I would suggest going directly to the "Help Support" icon above and send MAx a donation. If you choose not to, I have no problem with that either. In any event, please keep thinking about how we are going to make sure we keep Mudcat alive. As weird as it may be to feel this way about a little piece of cyberspace, I love the mudcat - which is, of course, all of you.

dw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Song Dog
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:47 AM

Kat/Katlaughing; I'm with YOU. Let's dot this **** NOW****


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Song Dog
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:40 AM

Come on "folkies". I can hardly believe what I'm reading here. Sure, it's easy to find a reason NOT to give. That's mostly what I'm hearing here. We all seem to be looking for a way for someone else to pay the way. Ads and such. Thats fine for later,cause that TAKES time. Right now all you have to do is visit your bank and arrange an automatic payment to MudCat, or arrange the same with your credit card company. Arent most of you now paying your ISP with an automatic credit card account? Just do the same for MudCat. Stop worrying about hackers and such if the MudCat says it's server is secure, have a little faith and tell them to take a little each month. Now, come on folks, if we will try as hard to find a way to do this as we are trying to find a way not to, we WILL succeed. **** MudCat Now and Forever.****


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:26 AM

Well, in the few months since I added the PayPal button, I've only had one person actually contact me to pay for use of an illustration. It is easy for anyone to copy a jpeg and never contact me. That particular honest person eventually said they would just send me a check, since the PayPal site was having problems that day and they kept having trouble trying to use it. I discovered PayPal by reading ebay's website about how to transfer money over the internet, and PayPal was recommended. It seems to have worked well for alot of people. Basically, you can transfer any amount you want to from your credit card and/or from a bank account. It may simplify members sending a few dollars on a regular basis to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:15 AM

What do you think of it, Alice? I've been wondering about it. Our newspaper had a big article on it and its founders recently that was very interesting and I've noticed a lot of people have it available on eBay now. Seems like a good way to go. Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:08 AM

I was going to suggest using Pay Pal, but kat beat me to it. I have a Pay Pal button on my website for people who want to use some of my art. It is easy to set up a PayPal account and a button link.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:28 PM

That PayPal link of kat's seem to indicate that the techniology is available that would make it possible to give instant small donations (or buy raffle tickets). But the procedure's a bit complicated as it stands. And I hate giving my creditcard number out over the net.

What I want is a purse full of change which I can spend without giving any theoretical hacker access to my account. I believe that is on its way.

I've just been looking at the Support the Mudcat link - I've never scrolled down it before, just used it to get to Amazon. Essentially it's got the makings of that Mudcat Trade Fair I suggested.

At present, for geographical reasons, it hasn't got the links to people I would be likely to buy things from, like Hobgoblin Music or The Music Room or Pub Prop - but I think it could be expanded in a way that would be useful to us all, as well as a fund raiser. And it needs to be signposted more clearly - to make it clear that this is a source to useful stuff we might want for ourselves, and help the Mudcat in the process.

Are there maybe any helpful elves out there who could be able and ready to help work this up if Max and Co ask them to?

We don't have Thanksgiving as such here - but it strikes me that Thangsgiving is a very appropriate time to be thinking about ways of helping the Mudcat be more secure and less of a strain on the key people who keep it in existence.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM

One more time:

It is my understanding that NO MATTER where you live, if you have a credit card you can make an online donation of any amount going to the link which Alice provided.

Am I wrong in this understanding?

Also, someone asked about a program which lets you set up an account and pay out when you wnat to. PayPal does that. I've not yet hooked into on my eBay account, but it sounds quite easy to do. Please take a look at it by clicking here.

Also, banking online works. My belief system says I should give/tithe to where I receive my most help. I have set up our bank acct. to send a monthly payment to the Mudcat Cafe. It is automatic, easy to do, and painless. There ARE enough of us who could do this, even as CarolC has done; remember the Bible story about the "widow's mite", well it adds up people! I cannot count the times we've talked about it and obviously not done it, at least not enough. It is up to us to help out Max and make sure the Mudcat does continue.

Also Dick is right AND, Dick, I'd love to see PermaLinks to Camsco and Folk Legacy on the main threads page. IF you are going to buy a CD and it is at all possible (ask, they will tell you) BUY it from Dick at Camsco or Sandy at Folk Legacy. Dick IS the DigiTrad and he and Sandy, along with Susan and Caroline are some of the biggest supporters of and contributors to the Mudcat. They deserve our business much more than any banner advertisers which may come on here.

Please, just DO IT NOW and do it consistently!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM

You can get to Amazon.uk via the Amazon.com page that the logo gets you to. Whether this still brings any advantage to Mudcat I don't know - when I asked noone was able to tell, but I go via Mudcat, anytime I want to go to Amazon.co.uk, in the hope it does.

A more direct link would be a good idea, for UK and other places. Is a logo link let you click on countries practical? I'd have thought it's the sort of free program that is lying around somewhere to be picked up and inserted.

But given the evident geographical distribution of Mudcatters, the real support at present has to come primarily from the Americans, I suppose, where giving voluntary money is more sraightforward.

Nobody's mentioned covenants and so forth yet I think. I don't know how that works in the States, or what they are called. What's needed is for an adequate number of people to pledge a small annual sum in a way that guarantees the money, rather than as and when they feel like it, to give a bit of stability for the Cat. (As and when is great for extras.) (But as I said there has to be a confidentiality guarantee if this isn't to be damaging. "Let not your left hand know what your right hand does", as the New Testament puts it.

Getting officially registered as a not for profit organisation: From what people say that must be a lot more difficult in the States than I had assumed. In fact I'd always assumed Mudcat had that status already. I've been involved with organisations getting charitable status in England, and it's never been particulaly difficult. I'd assumed that in the States it'd be even less complicated, what with constitutional rights and all that kind of stuff.

If the Mudcat was based in England I'd be suggesting various organisations, national or regional or local, who could supply a do-it-yourself guide to getting charitable status which they'd send by return of post, (or quicker in these days of faxes and email) - though getting it all signed sealed and delivered might take a bit longer. And there wouldn't be any signifucant cost involved.

That's not particularly useful. But is it really that difficult in the States? Would it have significant advantages? Would it in any way limit the Mudcat? Isn't there anyone out there is USAland who can rattle out reliable answers to those questions at the drop of a hat and for free?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,CarolC (at her parent's house in Wheaton)
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM

I can't speak for anyone else. I can only tell you what I experience myself.

I live on a very small disability income. I don't even have enough money to own a car. The mudcat is important to me. I send money to Max when I pay my bills each month. It's not much, but I try to send in five or ten dollars every month. I'm not saying this so be self-riteous. I'm saying it so people with very little money can know that it can be done.

I used to belong to a food co-op. For a long time the co-op was supported almost entirely by the efforts of a small handful of people. When that small handful of people burned out, the co-op folded. It can happen, folks. If we want something to happen, we have to make sure we each do our part. Some of us can't do as much as others, but we should all try to do something.

The people in the U.K. could agree on one person that they could send a check or money to, and a little extra to cover the cost of the money order or cashiers check, or whatever. That person could take care of converting all of the donations they recieve into a form that could be sent overseas, and they could send that to Max.

Or not...


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM

Talk and great ideas, are cheap. This is a place where many members have overcome all kinds of adversities in life, and have shared their trials and tribulations, and healing msgs, warm thoughts, and general goodwill and caring to their fellow members. Positive thoughts and good will are not going to solve the financial problems of the main benefactor of this forum, without who's past generosity none of you would be here or have many of the relationships you hold dear.

How many of you on this forum, who wish to see it remain, are going out this weekend? Perhaps for a nice dinner or a movie with your significant other, or shopping for Christmas presents, or hitting a local pub with the boys? What do you figure a night out this weekend will cost you? 10, 20, 30, 50 or more dollars? Forgo it, and instead get out your checkbooks now, and send THAT money into Max. Not much of a sacrifice at all, when you look at the sacrifices he's made on all of our behalves.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM

NO BANNER ADS PLEASE!!!

*-Phew!-*

Now that that's out of the way, there are a lot of good options that have been suggested here already. I did like the idea of a Trade Fair page, with links to musical sites. People could use that, especially if it is linked through a permathread.

(Banner ads scattered all over would definitely be somewhat repulsive. Besides, they only pay a little bit for clicks, a bit more for click-throughs, and a bit more for actual purchases through the link. It's not as much as you'd think. And sometimes you can't ignore them. I've gotten headaches from the flicker of certain ads in my "free" email. Please keep Mudcat really free, not "free".)

Also, we could try the voluntary subscription and see how it works. Certain people would be able to give, and certain others wouldn't. You still have to fundraise constantly if you do it at all, because some people drop out, and other people might not know there is a need for them to give.

Performers who use DT songs could pass around a jar after the specific song, and send that money to the Mudcat.

The idea of making songbooks of specific categories from the DT looks like a good one. "Bawdy Songs" "Badman Ballads" ... This could be good.

You could ask certain of your friends and family (you know, the ones who always give you a piece of (more) pretty junk that you don't need instead of a REAL present that you would use,) to give a donation in your name to the Mudcat instead of a present on holidays and birthdays.

My $0.02,
~*sirepseh*~


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM

I see Max has a click through thingy for Amazon.com - how about one for Amazon.co.uk for those of us this side of the pond? (No dear, I'm not simply spending all our hard earned money on more CDs, I'm helping to preserve something rather special...)

LFF


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM

Jon ... don't be crankin about the number of posting this thread has gotten!!... I have a FUNDRAISING IDEA thread going as we speak here and I've gotten a stinkin 7 posts! The thing that scares people off is the thought of having to raise funds ... guess that's why I'm the only Mom at the school running the Hot lunch program! ...LL


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM

I fully agree with Dick.

I receive a great deal of entertainment and knowledge from Mudcat/DT. I'm quite happy to write a check as a donation if that's what's needed. I would expect that others who spend a lot of time here would do the same. I think a reasonable donation benchmark should be established with individuals giving more or less as their means allow and their interest dictates.

Those who've not worked in sales and marketing should understand that supposedly "for profit" companies don't just take out banner ads with no expectations. Increasingly, they have means of monitoring the ad response and they make hard decisions about whether their $$$ are well spent. I don't like banner ads. I certainly wouldn't stop coming here because of them. They will be, however, only a solution for Max if they generate a stream of business for the advertizer.

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM

Was that someone complaining that things shouldn't have got to this state without us knowing? I didn't think we had rights in this place, and as long as Max is running the show, that suits me fine. Anyway, he sounds pretty relaxed.

I do hope you turn Onstage around Max, but I'd say go for the banner ads on Mudcat anyway - no reason why you shouldn't be getting that income to offset costs.

Some of us will even buy some of the stuff advertised - not as many of us ignore advertising as we like to think. Ads or no ads, I'll keep calling by, if only for the penetrating, in-depth critiques we get of even Mousethief's more tongue-in-cheek efforts.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:12 PM

1 - I can put up with the banner ads, if that is what it will take.

2 - Mousethief, it may be a common sort of joke where you come from, but where I was brought up, calling someone a nincompoop, is likely to get a set of knuckles in the face.

3 - I wouldn't mind sending in $10 a month. However, many of us are not in the states. To send a sum like that to the states, it requires either a bank or postal money order or certified cheque. This will add about another $5.00 to the cost, besides exchange. In Canadian sums, $10USx1.7+$5.00Cdn = $22.00 each month. Would quarterly be acceptable to reduce that $5.00 fixed cost?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 04:42 PM

I'm going to yell:

BANNER ADS DON'T DO A DAMN THING UNLESS PEOPLE BUY THE PRODUCTS THAT ARE ADVERTISED. FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, MUDCATTERS DON'T RESPOND TO THE ADS THAT ARE IN PLACE.

I, personally have found (and I suspect that Sandy at Folk-Legacy concurs)that Mudcatters are eager to suggest outside sources for recordings, although they're no cheaper and certainly don't do nearly as much for Mudcat.

THere are enough regular Mudcatters so that an annual income of a buck or so from each of them would support Mudcat and Digitrad just fine: sadly, there's no way at present to handle small transactions electronically. A cyber-turnstile would be great, but it doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM

Do they have the technology yet for a button you could push and make a donation there and then when you felt like it?

I remember reading about something like that for small transactions on the net - you'd set up a credit account somewhere, and that's where the money would come from.

I'm sure that quite a lot of us would do that, if it was that simple and you could do it on impulse.

The same technology if it exists, could also be used for entering into a draw. After all, pretty well every folk club that-ever-there-was has that as part of the evening.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:19 AM

It's hard to write this without sounding more self-righteous than usual.

I have no moral objection to banner ads here. I don't even think we have to worry about getting the right advertisers, they'll be there if we want them. By that I mean, no Nike types. Social conscience in place we'll get music merchants, environmental stuff and so on...this is not my area of expertise obviously...But if one looks at all the advertisers in the music press (Dirty Linen to Acoustic Guitar, there's scores of them), some must be interested in a billboard on the outskirts of Mudcatville.

I've watched most of the televised Toronto Maple Leaf games this year and I can't think of a single advertiser on the boards. It must be subliminal. Though I might have noticed an ad for snow shovels. And that's my point, we'll notice relevant ads and dismiss ads for things which don't interest us.

Many of us are living pretty close to the poverty line these days and are still willing to send money. I personally would like to see some of the big business we support through purchases return the favour.

Peace. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: jets
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM

I think the adds would be fine as long as they were music related.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:47 AM

I would like to hear some other people's ideas, too. Individual donations aren't what Max needs, I think. Fund drives are fine now and then, but what Max needs is guaranteed income. Otherwise, every month will become a fund drive, with some folks feeling satisfied because of the amount they can give, and others feeling guilty because they don't have much.

I'd like to see people try to come up with more ideas. (Of course, I'd also like to have won the lottery or find out a rich aunt has died and left me a couple mil.)

I don't want us to end up welcoming new members and saying "Welcome to Mudcat, a fine, friendly, folky forum where social status doesn't matter - only our love of music. Now please click the fish and give us some money."

So far Max's funding has mostly come from Onstage, which is also in trouble. On the radio, he joked about how much money he would need to run Mudcat from his apartment if Onstage went belly up. It's not funny that the situation has become this scary without us knowing there was a problem.

Max, if you need any long-distance part-time elves for OnStage with only moderate HTML skills, I volunteer. I'm afraid I won't make the board meetings, though.

Ideas - how Max can have a guaranteed monthly income:
Individuals giving him money. People must have money and must be willing to give it.
Grants. Somebody has to write them. I would guess Max puts in a 16 hour day at work already,
Businesses giving him money.
--Maybe hit up folkie organiziations and business. Won't be a lot of money, because even the organizations don't have it.
--Bigger business. Maybe they'll donate money for a link. Maybe they'll want banner ads.
Do something that will generate montyly income - this is where the possibilities lie, but is also where there's work involved.
--Sell something. Requires donated (at least partially) items.
--Provide a service. There are things we could volunteer for. We have an amazing pool of talent here. We can write web pages, create databases, paint, draw, sculpt, pot, cook, transcribe music, play, sing, make jewelery, write...etc.

I don't know how to make those things translate to money. The auction hasn't been too good for this - people sell the things they create rather than their skills.

Ideas?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:02 AM

I agree Jon........We need to let Max know. Banner ads and whatever is needed, but we all love this place and the friendships we've made here.

On a lighter note, maybe we ought to look into THIS IDEA.

Jon, if we used the likes of you and I, I'm afraid it wouldn't sell well though!!!!

Keep the thoughts and ideas coming here and let's try to support Max and ourselves for the future.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 08:05 AM

Killing the Threads makes 450 posts and this only 55?

Come on folks, even if there are no new ideas,or people unable to offer financial support. let's see some more support for Max who I believe works his balls off for this place in financial and time terms.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:37 PM

I know, Alice, I had mentioned it earlier, but a lot of people don't realise it is a link, that is why I suggested a PermaThread. From what people have told me, they see the fish jumping out a banjo as a cute logo, but never realise they can click on it for more info.

Just a thought, anyway. Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: RichM
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM

Go for the banner ads, Max. It's the most consistent way to make money. I don't mind clicking the banners to keep Mudcat going, and to make things easier for you.

Rich


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:17 PM

Kat, there already is a permanent link to that page - the logo fish in the banjo that says, Support the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:49 PM

I do that what Mmario suggests every day with The HungerSite amd its four btenants (the Rainforest, Kid's Aids, Childrens' Survival and Breast Cancer Sites). Got it down to a fine art, doesn't take more than 30 seconds to do them all, unless you stop and read the ads, which I don't as a rule.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:48 PM

Like Don Firth said, maybe Max could find some sponsors (and banner ads) from companies we'd LIKE to visit. (Elderly Instruments, 12th Fret, sellers of folk stuff, festivals, folk organizations, Ben & Jerry's, any place that sells chocolate...)


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: MMario
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:39 PM

heck - if max can make money for the cat with a banner ad, I could force myself to go click each of them once a day or so. what the heck; talk about painless giving. I don't have to READ the bloody things.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:33 PM

Good points, Alice and thanks for the link.

Max, I would suggest a PermThread which is entitled "How You Can Help Support the Mudcat" with all of the information in it that you have on the support page. I am talking about the written info, i.e. addresses, secure server link, etc. and a link to the support page Alice referred to, where those ad-links could stay. I cannot count the number of times people have asked me where the addys and phone numbers are.

When I went to Hober Radio today, I noticed they had an upfront, top of the page, BUT not in huge letters suggestion which said something to the effect of "Please make an online donation today to keep Hober Radio on the air." Wouldn't hurt at all to have that in a PermaThread or AS a Permathread, imo.

thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 07:54 PM

Banner ads. But we can't ignore them, we have to click on them for Mudcat to get anything from the advertiser. I also suggest that all who can, do as much gift shopping from the links that already exist on the Mudcat (CDNow, Barnes& Noble, etc.). Every purchase made through Mudcat also brings in a little bit of support. HELP Support The Mudcat - click here

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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 07:18 PM

Mudcat and Digital Tradition are resources of inestimable value to me. I could easily lapse into silly fantasies about what I could have done if I'd had resources like this when I first became interested in folk music. Information gleaned from the forum, plus links that people have put on have led me to realms heretofore unknown. I am eternally grateful.

Unfortunately, I am also eternally fundless.

Considering my more or less daily surfing habits, I hit Mudcat almost every time I go on line. Then, at least a couple times a week, I'll browse Elderly Instruments, Lark in the Morning, Folk-Legacy, and a few other on-line dealers, surf over to the classic guitar world and check in to see what's happening, and hit a few other places. I often check references to things Mudcatters have put on line (e.g., I had never heard of Seagull guitars until I ran across the Mudcat forum).

What this is leading to is -- banner ads are usually an irritant to be ignored. But -- the right kind of banner adds could actually be a service. Sumpin' to think about, maybe. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM

Song Dog and anyone else who is wondering:

please click on the

Mudcat Logo of the fish jumping out of the banjo
where it says "Help Support the Mudcat"


and follow that to about the middle of the page. There is a link for a secure servier to make donations and/or an addy to mail checks to, BUT this has never worked in the past. I am not saying that this time will be no different, but Max needs something that is absolutely reliable and so far, we haven't been. Just the facts, ma'ams and sirs.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: okthen
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 06:19 PM

Whatever is the lesser of an infinite number of evils,

I am guilty of inertia, I promise to do something about this

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM

Whadda ya mean, "This isn't the Florida Supreme Court"? We Floridians owe a lot to those guys, because now when we claim to be in "State of Confusion" folks don't know if we mean ourselves or where we live. You should have it so good.

AS for the banner ads, I would like to first explore a different solution. But if it comes right down to it, if it will save the 'Cat, lets do the banners.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:35 PM

If those Florida judges could manage to get through that case without cracking up with laughter and cracking terrible jokes, they must be even weirder than judges are supposed to be. Surely that's why they sit in private?

But that is strictly irrelevant thread drift. Other threads is where it belongs, if anywhere. (I say that not because I don't think jokes belong in here, but because I don't want blood and guts all over this thread.)

If Max does go down the advertising route though, I seriously suggest that the link to the Mudcat Trade Fair might have advantages over the banners on the page option. Aesthetic and financial advantages.

And since banners are so easy to block out I think that intelligent advertisers (and only intelligent advertisers would be interested in the Mudcat) might prefer the idea as well.

With banners, I suspect most people would block them out as a matter of routine. With a Trade Fair, I suspect most people would visit it every now and again. At folk festivals I never read the adverts in the programme. I always visit the Trade and Craft Fair.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:27 PM

Sorry Mousetheif, I guess that I am just a little up tight with this one and I do accept that I failed to see your humour which is a form I am not familiar with. Perhaps it is just me just being ignorant or perhaps it is a touch of US humour that is not often used in the UK (which one could argue is me being ignorant too...)

Anyway, back to the topic: any ideas on any other (most likely in addition to banner ads) sources of funding?

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Song Dog
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM

Put simply "folks", It's time to put-up or shut-up. I know what i'm going to do. I just need an address, where to send it. How many will join me? If enough of us send in a few bucks each and every month, the ads won't be necessary. If they are necessary, that's ok by me too. What ever it takes to keep the MudCat afloat. Don't worry about arguments over "who contributes and who don't" I can't bring it up, because I won't know who does and who don't, and I don't care. I can only be responsible for myself and what I do. Let's just try to make it "regular" so Max can count on it more or less. Hey, I'm living on SS myself. Sooo, if I can manage $5 or $10 a month. I'm thinking maybe some of you can also. If not, I'll still love ya. Lets try our best. I love MudCat. Some one give me an address.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:08 PM

Banner ads are unsightly but as many have said they're also easy to block out. Max, do what ever you have to do and know that we all love you for hanging in with us for this long! Vive la Cat!


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Subject: For crying out loud, lighten up!
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM

Because, Jon, I don't take myself as seriously as some do. Yes, this is a serious subject. Will my being a little silly on this thread cause Mudcat to collapse? I doubt it very, very much. Will it make somebody smile? That is what I was hoping. Given the odds of each, I figured it was worth it.

It's a pretty conventional form of joke, actually. "No, you weren't wrong, you were correct, for these reasons. Blah blah blah (enumeration of reasons). Or maybe you're just a dummy." Gentle teasing, but neither vicious nor particularly unusual. It's not like I was breaking really new ground here in the history of humor. It's a folk joke, if you will.

Lighten up, people. This isn't the Florida Supreme Court, this is a public forum for discussion of music and related topics. Humor and laughter are very important for folk music and blues. And Mudcat.

But what do I know? I'm one of those twisted people who already knows how to spell "nincompoop."

Alex
O..O
=o=


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