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THE WINNER

GUEST,khandu 08 Nov 00 - 02:19 AM
katlaughing 08 Nov 00 - 02:24 AM
Lonesome EJ 08 Nov 00 - 02:29 AM
katlaughing 08 Nov 00 - 02:35 AM
CarolC 08 Nov 00 - 02:40 AM
WyoWoman 08 Nov 00 - 02:45 AM
Bugsy 08 Nov 00 - 02:51 AM
Lady McMoo 08 Nov 00 - 02:58 AM
GUEST,khandu 08 Nov 00 - 03:05 AM
wysiwyg 08 Nov 00 - 03:14 AM
Steve Parkes 08 Nov 00 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 08 Nov 00 - 03:46 AM
Lepus Rex 08 Nov 00 - 03:51 AM
mrmoejoerisen 08 Nov 00 - 04:04 AM
Bun 08 Nov 00 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Me 08 Nov 00 - 04:28 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Nov 00 - 04:32 AM
CarolC 08 Nov 00 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,harp 08 Nov 00 - 04:38 AM
CarolC 08 Nov 00 - 04:39 AM
Lena 08 Nov 00 - 04:52 AM
CarolC 08 Nov 00 - 05:04 AM
Thyme2dream 08 Nov 00 - 05:30 AM
Bagpuss 08 Nov 00 - 05:43 AM
bbc 08 Nov 00 - 05:44 AM
Banjer 08 Nov 00 - 06:02 AM
Ringer 08 Nov 00 - 06:05 AM
The Shambles 08 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM
InOBU 08 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 00 - 06:58 AM
kendall 08 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Bob S. 08 Nov 00 - 08:27 AM
kendall 08 Nov 00 - 08:41 AM
MiriamKilmer 08 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM
Peter T. 08 Nov 00 - 08:50 AM
SINSULL 08 Nov 00 - 09:00 AM
Pseudolus 08 Nov 00 - 09:08 AM
L R Mole 08 Nov 00 - 10:18 AM
Jim the Bart 08 Nov 00 - 10:23 AM
Mrrzy 08 Nov 00 - 10:35 AM
katlaughing 08 Nov 00 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Bob S. 08 Nov 00 - 10:55 AM
Alice 08 Nov 00 - 11:12 AM
Little Hawk 08 Nov 00 - 11:14 AM
Jim the Bart 08 Nov 00 - 11:39 AM
Bert 08 Nov 00 - 11:42 AM
L R Mole 08 Nov 00 - 03:01 PM
Midchuck 08 Nov 00 - 03:54 PM
DougR 08 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM
MichaelAnthony 08 Nov 00 - 05:26 PM
Peter T. 08 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM
Liz the Squeak 08 Nov 00 - 06:04 PM
Jim the Bart 08 Nov 00 - 06:06 PM
Bert 08 Nov 00 - 06:06 PM
MiriamKilmer 08 Nov 00 - 06:38 PM
wysiwyg 08 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM
Jim Dixon 08 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM
DougR 08 Nov 00 - 08:09 PM
MiriamKilmer 08 Nov 00 - 08:13 PM
bflat 08 Nov 00 - 08:15 PM
Troll 08 Nov 00 - 08:26 PM
Lonesome EJ 08 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM
Troll 08 Nov 00 - 09:29 PM
Troll 08 Nov 00 - 09:38 PM
Bill D 08 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM
Bill D 08 Nov 00 - 09:59 PM
Charlie Baum 08 Nov 00 - 11:50 PM
Thyme2dream 08 Nov 00 - 11:59 PM
katlaughing 09 Nov 00 - 12:32 AM
GUEST 09 Nov 00 - 01:05 AM
Margo 09 Nov 00 - 01:32 AM
The Shambles 09 Nov 00 - 02:14 AM
GUEST 09 Nov 00 - 04:04 AM
sian, west wales 09 Nov 00 - 04:40 AM
Jim the Bart 09 Nov 00 - 11:52 AM
Troll 09 Nov 00 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,PETr 09 Nov 00 - 12:06 PM
L R Mole 09 Nov 00 - 12:39 PM
Peg 09 Nov 00 - 01:36 PM
Jim Krause 09 Nov 00 - 01:57 PM
Jim Krause 09 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM
DougR 09 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM
Bert 09 Nov 00 - 02:54 PM
MiriamKilmer 09 Nov 00 - 03:31 PM
Peg 09 Nov 00 - 03:46 PM
mousethief 09 Nov 00 - 04:20 PM
DougR 09 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM
mousethief 09 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM
Murray MacLeod 09 Nov 00 - 05:48 PM
MiriamKilmer 09 Nov 00 - 06:10 PM
Hollowfox 09 Nov 00 - 06:31 PM
mousethief 09 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM
MiriamKilmer 09 Nov 00 - 06:52 PM
mousethief 09 Nov 00 - 06:57 PM
The Shambles 09 Nov 00 - 07:04 PM
kendall 09 Nov 00 - 07:39 PM
wysiwyg 09 Nov 00 - 08:23 PM
MK 09 Nov 00 - 08:26 PM
DougR 09 Nov 00 - 09:42 PM
MiriamKilmer 09 Nov 00 - 09:47 PM
Tinker 09 Nov 00 - 09:56 PM
Little Hawk 09 Nov 00 - 10:05 PM
harpgirl 09 Nov 00 - 10:20 PM
DougR 09 Nov 00 - 11:46 PM
Charlie Baum 10 Nov 00 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,Bob S 10 Nov 00 - 05:13 AM
GUEST,Stackley 10 Nov 00 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Bob S. again 10 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM
MiriamKilmer 10 Nov 00 - 11:30 AM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Stackley 10 Nov 00 - 12:23 PM
The Shambles 10 Nov 00 - 01:37 PM
Bert 10 Nov 00 - 01:47 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Stackley 10 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM
MiriamKilmer 10 Nov 00 - 02:23 PM
MiriamKilmer 10 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 04:26 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 04:54 PM
GUEST 10 Nov 00 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Petr 10 Nov 00 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,Petr 10 Nov 00 - 09:01 PM
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Subject:
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:19 AM

Just in: Dubya has won.

Are you cheering or crying?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:24 AM

They are saying there is still a chance something may change, if not, I am breaking out the black armbands. Smae thing I did when his dad was elected. Fuck!

kat


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:29 AM

Nader had a chance to throw his votes to Gore,but opted to try for his 5% and get matching funds.He failed,but in the act cost Gore a margin of victory.

Well,we have Bush now,for better or worse.I wish him luck,and hope he does what is best for his country.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:35 AM

He will LeeJ, the key word being his country. I doubt we will recognise it once the all Republican House, Seante and he get on a roll. Canada is looking better every day.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:40 AM

*sob*...*whimper*....I want my binky...


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:45 AM

I am so deeply, profoundly pissed at Ralph Nader. He had a chance to make a strong statement, set some parameters, make some demands, then throw his support to Gore in exchange for some real assurances that the issues he raised would be dealt with, not just given lip service. Coalition-building is what politics is all about, but that lesson seems to have been lost.

I'm bereft, frankly. And it isn't just because a Republican has been elected President. I'm a Democrat, but I can live with the Other Guys, if they behave themselves. It's that I think the American people fell for a line of b.s. about Gore (re. him being a "pathological liar," etc.) and that his handlers and pollsters and managers and pundits and every other imaginable buffer got in the way and kept him from actually running the kind of campaign he could have. I think that campaign was mismanaged from the get-go and no one knew a damned thing or had the courage to do any intelligent damage control about stuff that was EASILY provable as horseshit.

I feel like the Democrats handed it to Dubya. And I think time will tell us which of those two gentlemen -- Dubya or Al -- actually are morally and ethically challenged.

Maybe this will be the impetus for finishing the social revolution we started in the Sixties -- as the election of 1953 proved to be back then. Power to the People! Right arm!

ww


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bugsy
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:51 AM

Meanwhile, it's a lovely day here in Western Austtralia.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 02:58 AM

Our condolences to the American people from the Surreal Kingdom of Belgium.

Peace

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:05 AM

To the Gore supporters, I offer my shoulder and hankie. To the Bush group, I lift a pint of Guinness.

For us all, I lift my voice in prayer.

May we all keep pressing on to the higher calling.

khandu


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:14 AM

mcmoo-- Aw that's so sweet, condolences. Thinking of us Statesers as we gnash our teeth. Thanks for keeping a thought for us.

Yeah, NADER. I wanna have a little talk with HIM.

I grew up thinking Ralph Nader was a really, really big deal. Maybe it's the fault of network TV (or my own for watching it), but all I have seen of Nader in this election has been an angry face drawing votes away from someone who was actually electable. I'm always a little suspicious of people who attack instead of working positively within an existing system and who cannot build their OWN organization up to a functional level.

I'm all for third parties but it does seem to me that when their candidates have no governing experience, they can't do much but be spoilers. I used to think that sound business experience could be a substitute, but then I went to work for the Red Cross as an exec, and I learned a lot about the difference between management and governance. I understand checks and balances much better for that than I ever could have from school civics lessons. Management and governance are different critters, and thank God they are. And NADER???? Come on! To run all that the US is??? Yeah, he was a real serious candidate.

~S~


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:35 AM

Well, I'm just glad it had nothing to do with me! At least I don't have to take sides, although I could never bring myself to support a man whose father spanked Bart Simpson.

People keep saying we get the government we deserve -- we don't! Nobody deserves politicians!!

Steve


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:46 AM

From the UK perspective I'd have preferred a Democrat but I didn't envy the choice on offer to the US voter. Still, let's be generous and congratulate DougR, if not Dubya.
RtS


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:51 AM

Oh, he hasn't really even won yet. They just said that the NY Times has stopped their presses because of the difference a Florida recount could make. God, this is a great election...

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: mrmoejoerisen
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:04 AM

Well I can talk because I voted and am drying the tear stained hankie now. Stupid Nader; if Gore had simply pounded out about 4 or 5 more issues he could have easily swept up lame Naders deciding votes but alas we have reached the end of the "Goals for the Twenty First Century Campaighn" and plunged ourselves into the "Raise the taxes so my buddies Defense and Pork" can take over for the (hopefully only) for the next 4 years agenda. In the next election in 2004 wouldn't it be interesting if a former Independant Party Candidate were to run as the Vice Presidential Democratic Candidate? I gave it my best effort yesterday as an American Citizen to continue our prosperity and stifle the Rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer scanario by casting my Vote. Well we'll see how Bush Jr does in the Oval Office we have his dad to thank for the Gulf War. mrmoejoerisen


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bun
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:24 AM

Shite!
Rich


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:28 AM

I have said it before and I will say it again -
DEMOCRACY JUST DOESNT WORK!!!!!
So - whats the alternative??????


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:32 AM

I voted for Nader. He is right about so many things, that he went over the top... of everyone. Gore hasn't lost yet, Bush hasn't won either. Too close in Florida, with potential hanky-panky to boot! Lost ballot boxes, recounts in five districts, big media turnaround after giving the state to Gore...

I smell a rat.

Media made this election, with selective reporting. Their predisposition/bias was evident in their late night blunders... I think Bush may have tried to buy this election... the "influence" wielded by the consevative Republican party.

I hope he gets caught.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:35 AM

**HONK**...sniff...sniff...


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,harp
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:38 AM

It's official Folkies! In the first Presidential Election of the New Millennium, the deciding vote was cast by an Elvis Impersonator who works in a Holiday Inn Lounge in Broward County!!!! No wait!!!....A Jamaican bass player in a Reggae band! No wait....An eighty five year old retired telephone operator from New Jersey down to play the slots!!!! No...wait!!!!...

harp


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:39 AM

As of 4:40 am EST, Wednesday, Al Gore now has the majority of the popular vote for the whole country!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Lena
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 04:52 AM

Guys,our condolences to the rest of the world OUTSIDE America,starting from Canada!!!I still have to forget all the shit Old man bush brought to overseas countries when he was on.This is the worst new I have been given in months.but with the disasters in Israel,I couldn't sort out the worst possible candidate to handle the matter,between the twos...I'm off,bitterly crying.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:04 AM

Gore now has Iowa and Wisconson!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:30 AM

I for one have been ashamed and disgusted by our leadership in the last eight years. Whatever the issues, I think Gore personally is a fairly intelligent, but nasty man. He would not be a leader I could be proud of, and I am hoping against hope that I can wake up sometime in the next few days and be proud again. If Bush is elected, I hope that he will follow through with his ideas of bringing the nation together, and really working with both parties on solving problems. I don't think you all have as much to fear or swear about as you think you do if he is our next president...with this sort of split vote, no one has any kind of dreadful power until they prove themselves in reality...and with a split congress as well, every major decision will be a battle for either man. I respect you all and your right to swear at me now, and will try to stay friendly and cheerful, but with all the stress I finally just had to put in my tuppence!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bagpuss
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:43 AM

Alternatives to democracy? I volunteer to be your benevolent dictator :-)

Seriously though, you should know better than to take the unofficial results of the tv stations. The difference in Florida is small enough to be withing the margin of error and a recount could change it all. With so many more votes to recount there, though, it may take a day or so.

never trust exit polls, my friends lie in them, just to make the forecasters look stupid!

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: bbc
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:44 AM

Although my radio is still saying it isn't final, I dearly hope that Bush has won. I have been ashamed to admit to being an American during Clinton's terms & Gore doesn't seem any more moral, just more inept. It's a dark day in NY--that's for sure! Moving to CT or MA is looking like a more pressing goal!!! This may even more me to buy a bumper sticker for my car for the 1st time--"Didn't vote for him; didn't vote for her!"

Where's DougR? Let's get a drink, honey!

bbc


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:02 AM

It ain't over till the fat lady sings..And she won't sing till all the Florida votes have been recounted...Does it really make a difference though?....One is as bad as the next one, maybe just in a different way!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:05 AM

Democracy is the worst possible way of getting a government... except for all the alternatives.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM

Come on stop 'beating around the Bush'. Who won?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM

Polar Bears turned black
Roe v Wade turned back. Ralph Nader gains a little ground,
But the world turns upside down.
God we hope not... Larry (it is still in play at 6:30pm)


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:58 AM

Never forget that anyone who thinks they can run a country and therefore stands for election cannot be sane. What makes matters worse is that people know this and still vote for them anyway....;-)

Alternative to democracy? ANARCHY RULES OK!!!!

BTW - the OED primary definition of anarchy is absense of government and I'm all for that!!!

Dave the anarchic gnome


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM

Is it, or is it not well known that Bush lied?That newspaper reporter asked him if he had been arrested after 1968, and he replied "NO". Is it or is it not well known that he was arrested not once, but three times? Then he takes the moral high ground, attacking Gores credibility. This bird couldnt qualify for a regular Civil service job, yet he can be president. What a country!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:27 AM

At least the people in Gore's "home state" of TN had the sense not to vote for him. They know him.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:41 AM

They are ALL sleeze bags. Its vital to be a politician. Does anyone really think that Nader is the savior? Got news folks, he is just another power hungry politician. that is the only reason anyone runs for high office. That guy in NJ spent 6o million dollars of his own money.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM

I found you! (I had left my browser open on the old thread, and when I refreshed it, everyone was GONE! I posted there. Now I'm here.

Kat, there are two midi file links at the link you gave me, but my player rejects both of them. However, "The Wearing of the Green" is entirely familiar... and green is so appropriate as a color for "le variateur d'ambiance du concombre saumuré."


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:50 AM

How are things in the banana republic this morning? The light on the shining hill, the beacon of the world, the ballot boxes in the swamps of Dade County?

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:00 AM

4 years of "subliminable messages". I don't think I can take it. Is our children safe from illiteracy with Bush in office?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Pseudolus
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:08 AM

Florida, the only state where the election is best out of three!!!! So far, Gore 1, Bush 1.

I think the best line of the night was from Bob Dole of all people who in response to the question, Could the electoral vote end in a tie said, "If it does end in a tie and they can't pick a president, I'd be glad to serve."

Frank


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: L R Mole
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:18 AM

Put the acoustics away and plug in the electrics, folks. Time to turn it up again.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:23 AM

Oy Vey...If I had only gotten in one more really clever quip, if I had only made up one more scandalous story, if I had only sedated 1,000 more blue-haired ladies...


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:35 AM

I'm just glad I didn't lose a night's sleep waiting up for the returns... but the pundits are right, at least it isn't BORING! But I still fear, I fear...


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:45 AM

You say you want a revolution....


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:55 AM

The recount in FL will probably take a week at least. They have to wait for the overseas ballots to show up. In the meanwhile whoever is responsible for the recount has yelled for her lawyers. I guess she doesn't know what her job is.

Now we will have recounts and challenges until some judge can be persuaded to validate the results. We will never know who won.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Alice
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:12 AM

Here is a message from the discussion going on at the professional illustrators forum regarding the Florida voting... interesting...

---

It's been reported that in Broward county Florida, confusing graphic design on the ballot has resulted in over 3000 Gore voters mistakenly voting for Buchanan.I've seen it. It's confusing to me and I'm no octogenerian. With Georgie ahead by about 1700 at this time it's possible that bad design could throw this thing. Amazing.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:14 AM

My condolences as well to my friends south of the border. We are presently having a Canadian election which is every bit as silly as the one you have just completed...just doesn't last one tenth as long. It will be over in a short time from now, and little, if anything, will really change, except that the rich will probably get richer, and there will be a few more homeless on the streets of Toronto and other cities...regardless of who wins it.

Someone said "Democracy doesn't work!" Well, of course not! Not the phony excuse for democracy that we have at present, because it ISN'T REAL DEMOCRACY AT ALL.

It would be better to ban all political parties and simply have individuals run for election on their own personal merits as human beings. Those individuals could be funded from a pool of public money, rather than from private (read: corporate) funding. Each individual, up to a maximum of 5 candidates per riding, would receive EXACTLY the same amount of money to run his campaign. The campaign would be limited to 40 days maximum. The individual receiving the most votes would win that riding. The winners of the ridings would form state committees of a non-partisan sort. The state committees would elect from their membership a national committee, after a period of holding discussions. The national committee would elect from its membership a federal committee, which would appoint a cabinet and a chief executive.

The PUBLIC would have the right to vote any member of that government out of office at any time...by a 66% vote of dissaproval. This would make those in government think twice about abusing their privileges.

Now think about it. Eliminate political parties, eliminate your ridiculous electoral college, eliminate BIG MONEY behind the scenes, and you have eliminated all the graft, corruption, and divisiveness of your present system.

Your present system CANNOT work. It is not democracy, no matter who wins your election...because the RICH and only the rich control and run your present system. And they distract you by dividing your attention between the Republicans and the Democrats and putting you at each others' throats...until the day after election...and then they cynically tell you it's time to "heal the wounds and unite the country". What utter bullshit. Democracy indeed!

By the way, I looked outside this morning, and the world is still beautiful, thankfully.

- LH


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:39 AM

Good thoughts, Little Hawk, but you underestimate the power of greed and corruption. A new system would just mean the wealthy and corrupt would have to find new ways to use their money and influence to screw the regular guy.

Yeah, I'm more than a little bitter about this election (like I've been about almost every election since I was old enough to think). Yes we need a new way to pick our leaders, but what stops your "committees" from becoming parties? Oh well, we need to keep those cards and letters coming in - all suggestions should be heard!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bert
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:42 AM

Bagpuss, you're on


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: L R Mole
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:01 PM

"...I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody, Outside of a small circle of friends..."the sainted Mr. Ochs.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:54 PM

Why do we need a legislative body when we have the web?

All we need is a sufficiently secure password system to make sure nobody votes but once, and every piece of proposed legislation could be subjected to a referendum.

You would need some constitutional safeguards, of course. Probably be a good idea to provide that any new law needed considerably more than a simple majority to enact, but repeal of any existing law needed less than a majority...

Peter.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM

Hi there, bbc! It's nice to see a posting by you again!

Been doing anything interesting lately?

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:26 PM

I'm all for new parties. The media and those parties in power don't give some a chance. I hope Nader gets the 5%. I like folk.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM

How about this alternative:

Back to the ancient Greeks,not to mention the jury system. People should be allowed to sign up, by paying $10.00 to a lottery, indicating their willingness to be decision-makers for a year. They would have to pass a simple competence test (more than GWBush ever did), not be too lunatic (more than Richard Nixon ever did), or senile (Ronald Reagan). The $10 million dollar prize would be paid to each of the 100 winners, $100 thousand each as salary. They would be the legislators. Think of the new perspectives, the interesting debates, the possibility that any citizen could have a real say in running the country. 100 would mean that the law of averages would flatten out the looneys.

Worse than the present system? I don't think so.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:04 PM

Fat lady won't sing until the postal votes are in - you guys could be in for another week of this!!

So hands up who wants to be a colonial again!! *BG*

LTS


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:06 PM

As a student of history, particularly that of my people (the Poles), I find this turn to our discussion very interesting. One of the reasons that Poland was such a mess for so long was that it was a pure democracy; any landowner could vote. They elected their king, who ruled til he died. Any individual citizen (landowner) could kill legislation. It sounded like a good idea at the time.

Unfortunately, it led to total gridlock and extreme corruption. Every "citizen" who was down on his luck put his vote up for sale to the highest bidder. The result was predictably chaotic; the King of Sweden was once "elected" to rule Poland, and proceeded to pillage his new realm. What a mess.

None of this was news to the founding fathers, who had good reasons to insist on things like representative democracy and the electoral college. If any of the 'Cat's scholars could add to my comments, I'd appreciate it. I'm at work and "shooting from the lip"; some of my facts may need buffing up.

Pax
Bart


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bert
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:06 PM

The price you pay for gas! not bloody likely Squeaks.


Bert.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:38 PM

http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,sunsentinel-nation-82373,00.html

Here you will see a picture of the faulty ballot.

My sister from Palm Beach (not the ritzi part) said she looked VERY CAREFULLY at that ballot before casting her vote for Gore.

There's more good stuff at the site where I found that link:

http://www.tompaine.com/


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM

I know-- let's all pray an exact tie in Floh-ree-duh...... do they do a runoff then (right into the swamp) or do the electors get to play grabass then???

We got the the Alligator 'Lector blues...
How come they hafta make US choose?
It was s'posed to be so simple
But now I see we're just the pimple
On the ass of progress toward....
A resolution where the people simply lose!


~S~


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Subject: "THE ONION" GETS IT RIGHT
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM

8 November 2000

BUSH OR GORE: 'A NEW ERA DAWNS'

AUSTIN, TX, OR NASHVILLE, TN--In one of the narrowest presidential votes in U.S. history, either George W. Bush or Al Gore was elected the 43rd president of the United States Tuesday, proclaiming the win "a victory for the American people and the dawn of a bold new era in this great nation."

"My fellow Americans," a triumphant Bush or Gore told throngs of jubilant, flag-waving supporters at his campaign headquarters, "tonight, we as a nation stand on the brink of many exciting new challenges. And I stand here before you to say that I am ready to meet those challenges."

"The people have spoken," Bush or Gore continued, "and with their vote they have sent the message, loud and clear, that we are the true party of the people."

With these words, the crowd of Republicans or Democrats erupted.

© Copyright 2000 Onion, Inc., All rights reserved. http://www.theonion.com/

To see more of this article click here.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:09 PM

Yeah, it must be pretty difficult for folks who cannot read, or cannot see arrows pointing to the correct space to punch, to use a ballot like the one used. That's why there are people at the polls to help such people vote.

It's a red herring, in my opinion.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:13 PM

Here you will see a picture of the faulty ballot.

Sorry I forgot to make the clicky, the other place to which I post does them automagically, so if you make them clickies yourself, they come out looking like garbage,

My sister has a friend who thinks she voted for Buchanon by accident.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: bflat
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:15 PM

And now for a Tom Paxton encore....S**T!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Troll
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:26 PM

There were sample ballots sent to every registered voter in the state. If anyone had a problem understanding the ballot they had an opportunity at that time to complain. This situation is kinda like the fellow who told the golfer who told the tournament officials on the 17th hole that he had been entered in the wrong handicap group.
"Why'd you wait until now to tell us?" asked the official.
"Up to now I was winning." came the reply.

troll


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM

I have heard several commentators suggest Al Gore "do the right thing" for the country and concede the election.Consider this- Gore won the popular vote,and a Bush Presidency will be by vote of a MINORITY of Americans.Could Bush have stolen the Florida election? there are widespread stories of missing ballots,misleading ballots,and Jessie Jackson has said that there were many closures of polling places in black precincts where hundreds of Gore voters still stood in line. If,in fact,there were improprieties,Gore would do America a disservice by conceding.If the irregularities are accidental and inadvertant,perhaps he should be magnanimous and bow out.

I would not be at all surprised if there is a new election in Florida,or at least Palm Beach County.Imagine the spectacle of both gigantic political machines grinding down on the 60,000 voters of Palm Beach County.Hey,we should do the whole thing live on NBC...let Gore,Bush, and Nader live and work with the folks there,and they could vote one out each week.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Troll
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:29 PM

There would also have to be a new election in New Mexico where a "data glitch" threw out 68,000 ballots. And in St. Louis where the polls stayed open AFTER the court-mandated closing. There have also been reports that some troops overseas did not get their absentee ballots.
And what about the medias announcment predicting a Gore victory BEFORE the west coast polls closed. I'm sure that had an effect on voter turn-out.

troll


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Troll
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:38 PM

Isn't this FUN?
And in only four years, we get to do it all again!

troll


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM

I heard a guy on a call in talk show who said HE voted in Palm Beach, and now that he sees it, he is NOT sure how he voted.....he ALSO said that there were not NEARLY enough poll helpers to deal with everyone...especially with the many 70 & 80+year old voters there.....

yeah...technically, DougR is right...they are supposed to read VERY carefully and pay attention, but ballot designers oughta be more careful not to make it so easy to miss! Buchanan got 3400?? or so there, and no one can find 75 people who admit to voting for him....enough to change the Florida totals.

Now, suppose that mistake had cost Bush rather than Gore.....how red would that herring be then, Doug?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:59 PM

I don't expect any new elections in any of those places...I can stand losing, if it is REALLY losing....but when it is so damn close, you want it totally fair.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:50 PM

What most disturbed me today was a story from Palm Beach County, Florida (All Things COnsidered, NPR). A woman was presented with the confusing ballot. She brought it to the election official to ask if she had marked it for Gore or Buchanan. The election official said she had punched the hole for Buchanan. The woman said that she had wanted to vote for Gore and asked for a fresh ballot. The election official denied her a new ballot, saying "one per person," grabbed the incorrectly marked ballot from her and thrust it into the ballot box. This is a clear violation of election rules, which specifically state that every voter who believes a mistake has been made or wishes to change his mind is entitled to a new set of punch cards until the voter is content that the ballot correctly represents his vote. This complaint is the most blatant case of election violation, and I wonder how many times the election official was able to repeat it during the day. It's not just that the ballot was confusing, but that voters were denied the right to correct their mistakes.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:59 PM

Buchanan did well in West Palm Beach...better than in other counties in the state--BUT, I heard an interesting fact on NPR this afternoon (you know they aren't slanted for Bush!) During the last presidential election, Buchanan also did well in that same county--it was the third highest vote for him in the state-couldn't you figure he got more votes there this year cos the same faithful crowd stayed loyal? Gee, maybe people voted for GORE by mistake!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 12:32 AM

Charlie, I heard that same woman. She was a young woman and this was her first time ever voting. We need young people to be involved, but with that kind of first experience, when she said there were signs all over telling people they had the right to change their ballot, if they thought they'd made a mistake, is not going to build their confidence in the system which needs them to participate so badly.

That doesn't sound like a red herring to me, Doug. Her mother had the same confusion with the ballot.

Thanks for the link, Miriam. I've done eough graphic layout to know that the holes for the righthand side of candidates SHOULD have been placed to the far right, just to avoid such confusion. It would have been a simple thing. Stupid to have them all running down in the middle row.

I also heard that the people were going door to door getting a petition signed for a new election there and that two lawsuits had already been filed on behalf of the voters. THIS is what democracy should be about. The people organising by grassroots and demanding that their concerns be handled legitimately, instead roling over like meek lambs and taking whatever is dished out.

It would be interesting to know about the company which designed the ballots.

kat


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 01:05 AM

If DuMbya gets in it will be a sad, scary day for this country.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Margo
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 01:32 AM

Hey Bartholomew, What interesting points you have brought up! America is not supposed to be a democracy, rather a republic! There's a huge difference, and I think you understand it. Margo


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 02:14 AM

The ballot paper could easily explain the difference btween the exit poll figues and the actual ones. A lot of voters would have believed and stated that they had voted for Gore, when they may not have?

Maybe the networks did not get it so wrong after all?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:04 AM

the electoral college is a joke> the candidates are a joke> Fla is a Joke> the media is a joke> your vote doesnt count> these things I know and hold to be true


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:40 AM

Margo: republic rather than democracy? That sounds interesting! I really don't understand American politics, but I'd sure like a Dummy's Guide explanation of that, for my file!

I'm still amazed that the Media are allowed to publish exit polls before all booths across the country have closed. I supposed they'd base their argument on Freedom of the Press but responsibility should be part of freedom. A fair election should take priority over who grabs the first news bulletin, surely?

sian, west wales


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 11:52 AM

I find it amusing that all this hub-bub could come down to 20 or so thousand people who couldn't figure out a ballot.

In 1976 we had a close election between two average candidates, Ford and Carter. The country floundered for four years under the Democrats and then elected the opposition candidate(Reagan) for eight years.

In 1988 we had a close election between two blah candidates, Bush and Dukakis. The country floundered for four years under the Republicans and then elected the oppoeition candidate (Clinton) for eight years.

Let Bush and the Republicans have the next four years. The economy is due for a downturn, the Congress is pretty well split up, and Bush is not the type of highly-skilled, energetic, visionary leader who can force things through. He will spend two years trying to gather his strength in the face of a declining economy. The Republicans will lose the House and Senate in two years and begin to move to the right to regain their dubious "mandate". Bush will spend the last two years of his term fighting off opposition from within his party and running for re-election. Nader will force the Democrats to move left, but a strong Centrist candidate will emerge to take the White House in 2004 & 2008. Let's just hope that he (or she???) will not be an alley cat, like good old Bill, or on the road to Altzheimers, like good old Ron.

And it's back to business as usual, here in America.

Love to 'Catters on all points of the political spectrum
Bart


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Troll
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 12:05 PM

Item: The ballot was designed by the WPB Supervisor of elections; a DEMOCRAT.
Item: Sample ballots were sent to all voters. If there was a comprehension problem there was time BEFORE the election to bring it up.
Item: The Reform party has ALWAYS done well in Palm Beach County. There are well over 3500 independents registered there versus about 100 for the adjoining county.Item: The early media announcment of victory for Gore BEFORE the polls had closed on the west coast caused some people to leave the polls without voting, convinced that their vote now made no difference.
All those who want a recount in Florida had better consider that the Republicans could ligitimately ask for a recount in New Mexico where 68,00 early and absentee ballots were not counted due to a "data glitch" and in Missouri, where polls were kept open past the court-mandated closing time. And this is only two places. There are probably others.

troll


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,PETr
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 12:06 PM

Apparently people in Chicago were so disenchanted with the election that some of them only voted once. Petr.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: L R Mole
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 12:39 PM

Damn them red herrings. Look what they done to Roosia.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Peg
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 01:36 PM

at this moment; according to the recount in Florida, Bush only leads by 799 votes...

considerably less than the 1800 earlier cited...

it just keeps getting more and more interesting...

peg (who woted for Nader in the "safe" state of Massachusetts)


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Jim Krause
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 01:57 PM

As I type this it is 1:51 PM central time (USA) and no one quite knows for sure what has happened, except they got a lotta votes to recount down in Florida. Even if Dubya wins, the pragmatic, some would say cynical side of me says that he's gonna have a long, hard four years of it without a strong majority in Congress and an almost 50/50 split in the Senate. Soddy's Analysis: Four years of you-ain't-seen-no-gridlock like this-here-gridlock. There's always the 2004 election, and don't forget the midterms in 2002. A lot could happen, or not. So, vote early & vote often. Soddy


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Jim Krause
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM

As I type this it is 1:51 PM central time (USA) and no one quite knows for sure what has happened, except they got a lotta votes to recount down in Florida. Even if Dubya wins, the pragmatic, some would say cynical side of me says that he's gonna have a long, hard four years of it without a strong majority in Congress and an almost 50/50 split in the Senate. Soddy's Analysis: Four years of you-ain't-seen-no-gridlock like this-here-gridlock. There's always the 2004 election, and don't forget the midterms in 2002. A lot could happen, or not. So, vote early & vote often. Meanwhile, back at the ol' Bar S I think I'll go down to the courthouse and reregister Green Soddy


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM

Peg: the total number of votes in the majority are immaterial. If Bush beats Gore by one vote, he is the president elect. Reminds me of the story I heard about a mother advising her son about sex on the day of his wedding. "Son, just remember this, a drop is as good as a gallon."

Bill D. All I can say is what I hope would happen. If the roles were reversed in Florida, I would hope that Bush would concede. Just as Nixon did to Kennedy, when he had as much reason to call for a recount in the 1960 election as Gore does. The longer the democrats fight this, if the final count shows Bush won (even by one vote)the more the country is going to be in turmoil. Look at what is happening to the stock market today! That might not appear serious to many mudcatters, but it is!

Bush may feel compelled to look into other irregularities in states which Gore carried by small margins, and this thing could go on and on.

If the disputed votes recounted show Bush as the winner, Gore should concede. We do not elect our presidents in this country according to popular vote. Perhaps we should, but that should be addressed after this election is over.

This time I agree with Bart. It's just four years, and then both parties (and maybe even more than two parties) will have another shot at it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bert
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 02:54 PM

...20 or so thousand people who couldn't figure out a ballot...

Well look at that ballot form! There WERE two holes in the Gore panel. I can understand the logic of assuming that the first hole belongs to Gore rather than to some guy on the facing page.

...If there was a comprehension problem there was time BEFORE the election to bring it up...

It's kinda difficult to resolve such problems before the election if the voters didn't get to see them until they were IN the booth. AND the officials couldn't understand them either.

It doesn't matter whose fault it was but there needs to be some way of fixing such problems; otherwise future form designers will have no reason to restrain themselves from using similar techniques.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 03:31 PM

My sister from Palm Beach County says: "the sample ballots were perfectly clear. The problem was that when you combined it with little holes you were supposed to poke, the little holes were not where you would have expected them to be. Nor were there numbers next to them. There were little arrows pointing at them, more or less ... Buchanan says no way can these be his votes. I think a good question might be whether those 19,000 ballots were all punched for Buchanan and Gore. Whoopsie."


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Peg
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 03:46 PM

from a friend:

Just got this from the CNN page:

A federal judge has scheduled a hearing for this afternoon to address allegations of voter irregularity in West Palm Beach, Florida, as the state continues its recount of presidential votes. The advantage for Republican candidate George W. Bush over Gore was 787 votes after 53 counties completed their recount, according to The Associated Press.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:20 PM

Some of the comments here make it look like people think that Gore called for a recount in Florida. He did not. State law mandates a recount if the difference between the two leading candidates is less than 1/2 of 1%. This was an AUTOMATIC recount. Gore had nothing to do with it.

I hear that Bush, however, did call for a refill. :)

I fail to see how the fact that the ballot was designed by a Democrat makes it non-confusing. Are you saying you implicitly trust all Democrats to make non-confusing ballots? What a stupid thing to even bring up. If it is determined that the ballot was confusing, then it was confusing whether it was designed by a Democrat or a Rosicrucian. The question is whether the people of this particular district are allowed to have their votes count. If 19k of them were thrown out, because they couldn't figure out which hole to punch and punched both, or punched the wrong one, then they have been cheated out of their vote. All this "it was designed and checked by a Democrat" crap is just special pleading.

And what's this bullsh*t about Gore conceding before all the votes are counted? What if he concedes and then the final vote -- including absentee ballots from overseas military personnel (don't THEIR votes count?) flip the total into his column? He'd look like an idiot. (Okay, bigger idiot.) No, it's best for everybody if he doesn't concede, and Dubya doesn't claim victory, until the vote tally in Florida is OFFICIAL and FINAL.

And finally, Troll, get this through your thick head: it isn't the DUI/OUI/DWI/whatever. It's the lying about it, and then going on to run a "bring integrity back to the Whitehouse" campaign. Get it? He lied through his teeth, then jumped on Gore for lack of integrity. Get it? Get it? Sheesh.

Okay, flame away, y'all.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM

Miriam: the arrows look pretty clear to me on CNN.

Alex: I don't flame. I assume the remark about Bush asking for a refill was intended as humor. If so, I think it was in bad taste. And I haven't seen anyone suggest that Gore concede BEFORE all the votes are counted.

If a new election is scheduled everytime someone's candidate does not win, we are going to be involved in constant elections. Perhaps another election should be scheduled for the one in 1996! Bob Dole didn't win that one, and I wanted him to win.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM

Ah, Doug has declared the ballot non-confusing, so it's non-confusing, and that's final.

Oh come on, Doug, Bush has been mispronouncing words and making malapropisms all year. Now finally you get upset about it? Oh, brother. If I had made some joke about Gore claiming to have invented the ballot recount, would that have offended you?

The point is not that Gore didn't win, but rather that there are very gross irregularities in the florida voting.

And am I the only one who has noticed that as the recount has proceeded, the difference between the candidates (in votes) has steadily declined? I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but THAT seems awfully suspicious.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 05:48 PM

I find myself rather benused that anyone with the remotest interest in folk music and what the whole ethos of folk music is about could actually be rooting for Bush to win. It would have been inconceivable for any folkie in Btitain to vote Conservative, and help put Margaret Thatcher in power. Is the analogy accurate?

Murray


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 06:10 PM

Subject: re-vote of the Presidential race in Palm Beach County Date sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:55:42 -0500

Forwarded from Kirk Ballin :

The election of Al Gore or George W. Bush as President may depend on the resolution of voting irregularities in Florida. Reports from Palm Beach County indicate that a confusing ballot set-up in that county led to thousands of votes mistakenly going to Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore. And there are reports of other voting irregularities as well. Florida Governor Jeb Bush, brother of George W. Bush, must bear ultimate responsibility for the integrity of the results to be reported by that state. Call on Governor Jeb Bush to ask for a re-vote of the Presidential race in Palm Beach County.

Click here to send an email to Florida Governor Jeb Bush asking for a re-vote of the Presidential race in Palm Beach County: http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/action.cfm?ItemId=9237

------

The deadline is TODAY - I don't know what time.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Hollowfox
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 06:31 PM

Thanks, Miriam. I just read this, and posted an e-mail right away.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM

I tried to use it and it crashed. Sigh.

Just got into a shouting match with my boss over the West Palm Beach ballot. Wonder if I'll get my merit-pool pay increase this year? Naaaah, he wouldn't stoop that low. The Pinkerton Guard days are long over, right? I mean, even Ronald Reagan wasn't anti-labor, was ... I mean, um, ... well, ...

What I really want to see is for every county in Florida, and perhaps even every precinct, the vote on the first count, and the vote on the recount. Seems the numbers are far more Gory now that they're having to be careful and all eyes are on the hands that feed the ballots. Arfully fishy.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 06:52 PM

That tends to happen when a lot of people are trying to access the site at once. I hope you'll try again, Alex. And I hope you get your merit-pool pay increase this year!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 06:57 PM

Reform party members "staying loyal" would never vote for Buchanan, who hijacked the party and took it off in a direction completely foreign to the philosophy of its founder.

One website I saw showed that there are only 304 registered Reform Party members left in Palm Beach County, whereas Buchanan received over 3000 votes.

Hmmm. Can you spell "discrepancy"?

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 07:04 PM

Interesting to see all these Republicans saying that Gore should concede and what damage this is doing etc.

I think that they should maybe be a little careful what they say. As if the recount should now give Gore even a tiny majority, they will then have to practice what they preach.........


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: kendall
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 07:39 PM

Good old Jeb said he would deliver Florida into Dubbyas hands.Wonder what he meant by that?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 08:23 PM

All day long the parties played a pissing contest over how much pressure to bring to bear on each other, the markets, and the people's passions. I will remember this the next time I vote. But the vote just cast has to be clean, or there will be hell to pay.

The people bear the burden of voting. But the election workers have the burden of making that POSSIBLE. Once you are in the polling place, your vote is in the stewardship of the workers and they have authority there. Whatever you may have seen or not seen of the ballot, it is the worker's responsibility to assume you know ZERO and simply wish to VOTE, and to help you do that with some degree of respect for the integrity of your vote.

I have also been a been a volunteer at a polling place that was overwhelemd by early voter turnout, and I can tell you this much-- no matter how overwhelmed you are, your responsibility is to serve each vote's integrity, period. Where were the observers from each party when these irregularities occurred?

I think I am a pretty smart and assertive person. I have voted before. I have done graphic design... and when I went to vote Tuesday, they handed me a ballot set up like I had never seen before and it took me three tries at getting instructions before I got any I could understand. I can be assertive when it makes sense, but I also have a public role in my community-- and sometimes those considerations have to be put first. So I am not always that willing to seem that dumb in public. I bet I am not the only one.

How many people went to vote but did not feel up to arguing with people in charge who exercised authority over them, as election workers actually do? I am most concerned that there are so many cases being reported that people who knew they had made a mistake were denied fresh ballots. That alone ought to call for a remedy in that county.

So if legalities permit this as a remedy, I am for a revote for those who voted, in this Florida county, and anywhere else there can be irregularities documented. The application of legal remedies should be available in any election, whenever the process matters enough to any citizen that they make sufficient noise about it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MK
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 08:26 PM

I think at this point in time, given the nasty rhetoric back and forth between both camps regarding possible voting irreuglarities, the will of the people and the popular vote, etc.etc.etc.......that rather than waiting another week to week and a half for the overseas votes and absentia votes to be tallied, we simply put Gore and Bush in the boxing ring for 12 rounds 1 on 1. No ear biting or headbutts allowed. If this results in a draw, then (as some respondent on CNN said last night) each can serve two years as president, and a simple coin flip will decide who starts first.

It's very sad and bittersweet regardless of the winner...who obviously has no mandate from the people.

I was very amused by Nader's remarks at a press conference last night where he accused the Gore campaign of stealing the election from HIM.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 09:42 PM

There have been no proven voter irregularities in Florida! There have only been reports of people who cannot read, and cannot distinguish one candidate from another when an arrow clearly points to each one of them.

And Alex, you see a conspiracy because the gap between votes for Bush and Gore has lessened during the recount process? What kind of conspiracy would that be? All those poor Florida bureacrats doing the recount have a vendetta against George Bush? I don't think so. It only takes a majority of one to win the election.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 09:47 PM

Hey guess what! My brother (another Floridian) says: "Palm Beach printed the sample ballot in the paper. The sad thing is that there was a similar problem in Palm Beach in 1996 and the idiots didn't learn from it. 15,000 ballots were discounted in 1996... "

And Buchanan had a strong showing there in 1996.

Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Tinker
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 09:56 PM

The issue for me is not which of the two wins, although I DEFINATELY have a STRONG preference. But can we leave the spins and the games?
The "Legal" rules followed to whoever's own benefit don't impress.Let's just clean house district by district. Each of us can work to assure that our own district respects and handles each ballot as if the eyes of the world will be watching in the morning. This race proves the possibility.

No, I know history doesn't hold a lot of hope for universal integrity. But, locally one district at a time we can try. Right now both sides are fighting for themselves. But as a voter the integrity of the system seems more important to me.

Okay Kendall, hold me to it. I will find the time for one more thing. If only cause it's the basis of so many others.

Tinker


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 10:05 PM

Why not just hold a 24 hour lying competition with Bush versus Gore, and then give the presidency to the one who is the biggest and most convincing liar? This would follow in a time-honoured political tradition, and would help to maintain the existing system for at least another 4 years.

We could then do the same in Canada.

After all, they say that every time the USA sneezes, Canada catches a cold...


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 10:20 PM

...my family has lived in Palm Beach County for over thirty years...my father was a City Councilman in Riviera Beach for eight years. The county is largely democratic and has many older Americans as well as a large black population. But, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if there was a conspiracy to keep this ballot in operation despite a clear awareness that many voters would be confused by it.

The people with real power in this county are rich white Republicans, who are arrogantly disdainful of the majority of individuals in the county, both politically and personally. Remember, Henry Flagler sponsored a picnic on one end of Palm Beach and proceeded to burn down the black section to rid the Island of black citizens! That is the legacy of Palm Beach County!


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 11:46 PM

I'm sure Florida's Governor Bush is going to be greatly impressed with hundreds, perhaps thousands to email from folks outside Florida.

No, Murray, it is not.

Miriam: Careful, dont' try to confuse these folks with facts.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:22 AM

The Palm Beach County ballot may well have been illegal, at least insofar as it violated statutory requirements for a ballot layout set down in the Florida codes (Title IX, Chapter 101). On paper ballots, candidates must be listed linearly and the holes placed to the right of their names. On electromechanical ballots, which is the sort of ballot used in Palm Beach County, where hole punches are then read mechanically, the holes may be to the right or left, but a linear arrangement is still expected--and this was not the case in the "butterfly" ballot. Moreover, the two major parties (i.e., Democratic and Republican, with the governor's party on top), must occupy the top lines of the ballot, with minor parties below. The Republicans had the top. The Reform Party was beneath. The Democrats were bemeath the Reform Party.

Having established that the ballot did not meet the statutory requirements, it is next necessary to show that the failure to conform created a result that caused the will of the electorate not to be represented. The 19,120 double-voted ballots and the number of Buchanan votes huge beyond statistical probability are indications that the form of the ballot created confusion and probably caused misrepresentation of the voter's will. It was not merely that the voters were incompetent; the ballots were badly designed. (Could one file a complaint under the ADA provisions, I wonder?)

Then we'd have to show that this matters. Normally, voting irregularities might affect final tallies, but rarely do they amount to enough votes to change the final outcome. In this case, they change the final outcome not merely for Palm Beach County, but for Florida as a whole, and for the entire nation, which is being asked to trust in the Electoral College system, and which will potentially give a majority of its electoral votes to a candidate who did not receive a majority of the poplular vote. Under the circumstances of the electoral vote countermanding the popular vote, the nation outside of Florida must be assured that the result in Florida was legitimate. Otherwise, it will have cause to see President as having assumed the office without legitimacy or authority. And that lack of faith in the process would spell the ultimate demise of the system.

How long can this go on? The good news is that there's a deadline--the second Tuesday of November, 2004.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 05:13 AM

NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE 11/09/00 9:00 a.m. The Palm Beach Legal Precedent No cause for Dem squawking. By Dave Kopel of the Independence Institute According to some Florida Democrats, the particular layout of ballots in Palm Beach was confusing to voters, and resulted in mistaken votes for Buchanan which were actually intended for Gore. The Florida judiciary has already addressed the issue of post-election claims about ballot confusion, and the precedent is unfavorable to those who want the election overturned. In the September 10, 1974, Republican primary in Pinellas County, several losing candidates brought a post-election suit against county election officials. (Pinellas sits on the Gulf Coast, and includes St. Petersburg.) At issue was the longest ballot in Pinellas County history. To save space so that every candidate and issue could fit on the voting machine, the election officials had created a ballot on which the list of candidates for some offices appeared on two lines. In a particular race, for example, the first three candidates, listed alphabetically, appeared on one line, and the last two candidates, alphabetically, appeared on the next line. A lawsuit demanding a new election was filed by candidates who appeared on the lower line and lost. The Florida trial court agreed. But on October 15, 1974, the Second District Court of Appeal unanimously overturned the trial judge, and let the original election stand. Nelson v. Robinson, 301 So.2d 508 (Fla. Ct. App. 2d Dist., 1974). The Court of Appeal explained: Keeping in mind that we are talking about a claim made after an election, and not one which may have been enforceable before, if a candidate appears on the ballot in such a position that he can be found by the voters upon a responsible study of the ballot, then such voters have been afforded a full, free and open opportunity to make their choice for or against that particular candidate; and the candidate himself has no constitutional right to a particular spot on the ballot which might make the voters' choice easier. His constitutional rights in the matter end when his name is placed on the ballot. Thereafter, the right is in the voters to have a fair and reasonable opportunity to find it; and as to this, it has been observed that the constitution intended that a voter search for the name of the candidate of his choice and to express his of the candidate of his choice without regard to others on the ballot. Furthermore, it assumes his ability to read and his intelligence to indicate his choice with the degree of care commensurate with the solemnity of the occasion. The Court of Appeal also cited a U.S. Supreme Court case in which the high Court explicitly and unanimously affirmed a Pennsylvania federal court which had ruled that an unfavorable location on the ballot was not a form of unconstitutional discrimination against a candidate. Gilhool v. Chairman & Com'rs., Philadelphia Co. Bd. of Elec., 306 F.Supp. 1202 (E.D.Pa.1969), aff'd 397 U.S. 147 (1970). In Palm Beach this year, the ballot form was approved beforehand by Democratic Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore. This fact relates directly to the Florida Court of Appeal's point that "it has often been held that one who does not avail himself of the opportunity to object to irregularities in the ballot prior to the election may not object to them after."


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:35 AM

Careful, dont' try to confuse these folks with facts.
DougR

ROFL!! That is hysterical coming from you Rodney. You wouldn't know a fact if it reared up on its hind legs and bit you in the ass. Facts are slippery little buggers with you arent they? If something supports your viewpoint its a fact; if not its an opinion. Same with lies. You see nothing wrong with you or your team telling them- but its reprehensible if the other side does it. Morals and integrity are situational considerations for you.

Are you serious with this nonsense, or do you do it just to take the mickey? Oh, sorry, I forgot:"Alex: I don't flame...DougR" If you say so, Rodney, it must be true, and that's a fact.
Cheers.

PS: Dont bother to thank me for my comments.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Bob S. again
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM

If you don't know by now, the Palm Beach ballot is the same as used in Chicago. They didn't hava a problem with it.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:30 AM

An article in the Washington Post states that Florida Law requires that the hole be placed to the RIGHT of the Candidates name, and that all the holes be on THE SAME SIDE of each candidate's name.

The ballot in Palm Beach County was illegal four years ago, and it's still illegal. Nobody bothered to contest it four years ago when 15,000 ballots were double-punched and thrown out. That was - um - unwise. The election in that case was not so close that those 15,000 votes would have made a difference. This time it does make a difference. The mistake should be rectified, regardless of whose fault it was, how stupid they were, and whether or not it changes the outcome. Anybody can make a mistake. We all do stupid things on occasion. Being unwilling to correct such errors is the height of - well, never mind. As Auntie Em said, "if I were not a Christian, I would tell you just what I think." (paraphrased)


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:46 AM

I have wondered for sometime about your age, Guest Stackely. With maturity comes the realization that in order to get your point across one does not have to use personal attacks. Something that you have not yet learned.

And I do thank you for your comments, even though they are meanspirited and very personal. You have every right to express the opinons you do ...as I do.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:23 PM

I have wondered for sometime about your age. With maturity comes the realization that in order to get your point across one does not have to use personal attacks.
DougR


An interesting observation, Rodney! What age do you figure that makes your hero Rush Limbaugh,or the House Impeachment team, or Dumbya and his handlers... or, gosh, even YOU! with your attacks on Gore?

Bring this up with the Republican Party, where it might do some good.

I'm not attacking you, Rodney- I'm attaching your conveniently elastic definitions of "fact" and of "morals" and of "integrity". Re-read your old posts. Or perhaps you are too self-deluded for that to matter.
Cheers.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:37 PM

Oh sorry!! I have put this on the wrong thread........


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:47 PM

Florida's Governor Bush... I'd forgotten that - Isn't he the guy that defaulted on that 4 1/2 million dollar loan?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:48 PM

I think your definition of personal attack is a bit skewed, Guest Stackely, Greg F, (whoever).

I don't recall making any negative personal attacks on Vice President Gore. If so, they were unintentional. I have made it clear that I don't agree with him, and I don't like him. I've made no secret of that. One is not allowed to express an opinion, I take it, if it is contrary to yours. Oh well.

I note that you do not hesitate to make personal attacks on folks like Rush Limbaugh, The House Impeachemnt Team and Governor Bush. You got a special license, no doubt.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM

For a self-proclaimed man of honor, Rodney, you seem quite comfortable with surmise, innuendo, and unsubstantiated allegation. Take care- it could come back and bite you one of these days. Of course, you're free to believe whatever you want.
Cheers.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:23 PM

Hey Charlie, thanks for your clear explanation at blue clickie.

I hadn't read that hen I posted my brief explanation. I LEFT out the part about all the holes having to be on the same side because I didn't understand, having only heard the excerpts Tim read to me, and not carefully studied the article myself.

I'm impressed with your thoroughness and your thoughtfulness.

In case anyone was serious about not knowing what the Virginia Greens are, it's the Virginia branch of the Green Party.

The debate about the Palm Beach County ballots is proceeding on a number of threads. Could we perhaps designate one of them as a no-flames thread? Nah... it would never work.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM

This is well over one hundred messages. I suggest we move to "What a bunch of incompetents" - which is also on the subject of the Palm Beach County ballots, and let this thread die.


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:26 PM

Well, thank you, Guest Stackley, that's nice of you!

I'm pleased to have you for a friend.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:54 PM

Hmmmm. CNN reports the race is really tightening up in our neighboring state of New Mexico. Less than two hundred votes separating Gore and Bush now, with Gore in the lead. Oregon and Iowa, New Hampshire, and Wisconsin are looking better for Bush too.

Looks like MSNBC and CNN are going to have a lot to work with for the next week or so.

DougR


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 05:49 PM

New ThreadHERE


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Petr
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:38 PM

My question is what if the vote in Florida comes out even. Now that we are in the electoral twilight zone, somebody must be operating that improbability drive, it wouldnt surprise me. Then what?


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Subject: RE: THE WINNER
From: GUEST,Petr
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:01 PM

My question is what if the vote in Florida comes out even. Now that we are in the electoral twilight zone, somebody must be operating that improbability drive, it wouldnt surprise me. Then what? flip a coin?


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