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Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'

wysiwyg 14 Sep 00 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 14 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 14 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM
Lonesome EJ 14 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 00 - 03:54 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 04:07 PM
Ebbie 14 Sep 00 - 04:25 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM
mousethief 14 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Mongo 14 Sep 00 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Mongo 14 Sep 00 - 05:16 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 14 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Mongo 14 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM
M.Ted 14 Sep 00 - 05:53 PM
mousethief 14 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 06:07 PM
domenico 14 Sep 00 - 06:10 PM
domenico 14 Sep 00 - 06:25 PM
mousethief 14 Sep 00 - 06:33 PM
Jeri 14 Sep 00 - 06:39 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM
Greg F. 14 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM
mousethief 14 Sep 00 - 07:04 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 14 Sep 00 - 07:22 PM
Jeri 14 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM
Mbo 14 Sep 00 - 07:43 PM
catspaw49 14 Sep 00 - 07:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 00 - 08:25 PM
domenico 14 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM
domenico 14 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 14 Sep 00 - 08:58 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 00 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,marty D 14 Sep 00 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,Ernst Zundel 14 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM
catspaw49 14 Sep 00 - 09:52 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 09:53 PM
Greg F. 14 Sep 00 - 09:54 PM
domenico 14 Sep 00 - 10:09 PM
domenico 14 Sep 00 - 10:35 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Sep 00 - 01:55 AM
DougR 15 Sep 00 - 02:06 AM
Grab 15 Sep 00 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,John Bauman 15 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM
Ebbie 15 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM
SDShad 15 Sep 00 - 12:38 PM
mousethief 15 Sep 00 - 02:16 PM
Kim C 15 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM
SDShad 15 Sep 00 - 03:29 PM
Kim C 15 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 15 Sep 00 - 07:09 PM
Mbo 15 Sep 00 - 07:12 PM
DougR 15 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 00 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 15 Sep 00 - 08:18 PM
mousethief 15 Sep 00 - 08:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 00 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 15 Sep 00 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,Rush 15 Sep 00 - 09:11 PM
GUEST,The Yank 15 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 00 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,The Yank 15 Sep 00 - 10:16 PM
CamiSu 16 Sep 00 - 12:11 AM
wysiwyg 16 Sep 00 - 12:24 AM
GUEST 16 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM
Bill D 16 Sep 00 - 12:37 AM
wysiwyg 16 Sep 00 - 12:38 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 16 Sep 00 - 02:27 AM
DougR 16 Sep 00 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,John Bauman 16 Sep 00 - 09:28 AM
Ram Shackle 16 Sep 00 - 10:04 AM
Jeri 16 Sep 00 - 10:45 AM
dick greenhaus 16 Sep 00 - 11:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM
DougR 16 Sep 00 - 07:57 PM
wysiwyg 16 Sep 00 - 09:30 PM
Little Hawk 16 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM
CamiSu 16 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM
Little Hawk 17 Sep 00 - 01:02 AM
GUEST,Gordon Gottleib 17 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM
Little Hawk 17 Sep 00 - 11:23 AM
Little Hawk 17 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM
BDtheQB 17 Sep 00 - 11:58 AM
Lepus Rex 17 Sep 00 - 12:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 00 - 04:35 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 17 Sep 00 - 05:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM
wysiwyg 18 Sep 00 - 09:51 AM
catspaw49 18 Sep 00 - 10:36 AM
wysiwyg 18 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM
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Subject: AKA, 'folk nazi' II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:20 PM

The discussion begun by Mike Reigenstreif in THIS THREAD has been so interesting, and generally so well conducted (IMNSHO), that I think it is worth continuing without all the loading time the first thread now takes. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you read that entire thread before posting here, if you have not already done so. In many of the posts, there is quite a high standard set for the attempt to communicate clearly and responsibly.

So-- please remember that most of us intend to be here with each other for some time to come, and post so as to make everyone glad of it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM

Greg F,

I still contend that it is unfair for you to put the burden on me to go to the radio, listen and try to prove your point for you. I have listened and I don't see what you are referring to. If I did I would not have asked the question. I repeat, your accusation of bigotry that you don't want to take the time to defend is the ultimate irony in this (continued) thread dealing with the harmful use of inflammatry words that mean things. I don't think my question is inflammatory (it was certainly not meant to be) but asserting bigotry is and I don't think it's outrageous to simply ask the nature of the bigotry to which you refer.

Sincerely,

John


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM

Having just re-read your last post I think it also very condescending to make the assertion that Limbaugh is my "buddy". You have no idea the extent to which I agree or disagree with him and it has no bearing on the discussion, your accusation that he is a bigot (and misogynist).

Sincerely,

John


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM

You make a good point John.Most of the time hot-button labels are a way to paint discussions as black and white,negating any effort to get below the surface and understand.This discussion has been failrly free of the kind of polarization caused by name-calling."He's a fascist.Because..well everyone knows he's a fascist!" That is the old way of thinking.The kind of sensible argument going on in this thread,among people who may disagree politically, causes us to question statements that would automatically be accepted among our friends who believe as we do. I would urge Greg to go the next step,and tell John why he feels that way.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:54 PM

Yup, Greg, John, hang in there, I know you can do it.

Well, boys and girls (are those terms still OK), I have been offCat searching for some stuff to help me tell a dear friend exactly how I love him, and don'tcha know, I ran spang into something perfect for this here thread.

God bless Si Kah. And CLICK HERE to see why I say so.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:07 PM

John, I think folks like Greg find it difficult sometime to back up thier vitrolic feelings about subjects such as Rush Limbaugh with facts. I have serious doubts that he has listend to enough of Limbaugh to make a difference one way or the other. I have listened to him many times and though I don't agree with some things he advocates, I do agre with many things too. After all, he does not hide the fact that he is a conservative Repulican.

Since he has the largest listening audience of any radio talk show host in the U. S., a lot of people must either agree with him, in many instances, or find him highly entertaining. I don't particularly enjoy listening to many of the callers he talks to, because they carry their admiration for the "great" one a bit too far for my tastes.

Greg, and those who dislike him certainly don't have to listen to him.

But I wouldn't expect any substantive arguments from Greg on this point if I were you, and I say this with all good will toward Greg and others who view Limbaugh the way they do.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:25 PM

I used to hear Limbaugh at my brother's house- in my opinion, Limbaugh is the Jerry Springer of radio. Now, mind you, I have never seen J. Springer's show- but I have heard and read enough about it to have formed an opinion.

In my opinion, (Must we say that every time?), Limbaugh's public persona is, at the least, mean-spirited, simplistic, hate-mongering, non-intuitive, selectively vitriolic, scornful...I have no idea of his beliefs in his personal life but let me tell you I have no interest in knowing such a man.

In my opinion, subject to enlightenment, people who are drawn to him and his public philosphy tend to be those who feel powerless and out of control of their own lives. I realize that's an inflammatory statement so I should probably apologize up front, but I base it on the reaction to R. L. I have seen on listeners' faces, like 'Yeah! Yeah! Tell 'em, Rush!

DougR, I enjoy your posts so I hope you are not too offended by this. And, of course, all the above is just my opinion.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM

I work for a mental health organization and one of the things we talk about is the use of mental-illness terms in casual conversations. Things like, "she's psycho," or the careless use of the word "schizophrenic." (Most people who use that one don't even know what it means but for some reason it's become popular.)

The thought is that by demeaning the seriousness of mental illness, people will continue to be afraid to get help. But I had someone with a mental illness say to me, It's crazy around here today, isn't it?

There are two things at play here: good old-fashioned tact, and the right in this country to say whatever pops into your brain. Sometimes they are diametrically opposed. Sometimes people complain about having to watch what they say, or someone might be offended.

Sometimes it is more important to not offend someone than it is to exercise your right to free speech. Sometimes it isn't. I guess we have to learn to know the difference.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM

Forgive my ypto on SI KAHN. Alawys spiel chuck.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM

But Kim, that takes effort!

lazy in seattle,
Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,Mongo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:12 PM

First off, Praise, thank you for that wonderful link. It serves as an excellent reminder that regardless of who you are, or where you come from, people have an impact. Secondly, while the words were not your own, they reflect your opinion beautifully, and they do the most important thing, they do not place blanket-blame on anyone.

As a non-Jewish, white, heterosexual, Gen-X, male, from a mostly white suburban middle class family in L.A., Calif., I was raised under the umbrella statement that I was the worst scum out there. I must be a bigoted, racist, fascist, homophobic, xenophobic, sexist, predatory, harrassing, anti-semite.

Well, thanks be to the wonderful world of leftist, authority-questioning, violence laden world of punk rock (..and I mean the early stuff, back when "reaganomics", police beatings, censorship, and World War III were omnipresent), I walked out a little more polite, a little more sensitive to other peoples needs, and a little more interested in how people REALLY think, regardless of their background.

I became one of an obscure, but ever growing movement that came to be dubbed the "Radical Moderates". In a nutshell, people will always disagree, it's their right. People have every right to open their mouth and state their opinion. And lastly, but most importantly, the right to swing your fist ends exactly where my nose begins.

To those whom the horrors of the Holocaust, whether it be "THE" Holocaust (my meaning being specifically the extermination of Jews from Europe), or the other victims, such as the Gypsies, homosexuals, and other targeted groups, I understand that the word "Nazi" has a very specific meaning to you, and you wish not to have it bandied about in a careless manner, in the concern that it might lose its impact.

However, please do not feel personally attacked by individuals who use this term in their vernacular, as this word is doing what every word does eventually in a language, it evolves and gets incororated into the vocabulary. While you may feel it is losing its particular meaning, it is being used to explain the idea of intolerence. If you wnat to make sure it conveys the same sense of horror, feel free to remind people exactly what images it does convey. If anything, you either help them more correctly convey an idea, or perhaps you now learned that they feel just as passionately about an injustice as you.

Language is our only way of precisely conveying our thoughts, and English is a "living language", and with it, we all learn to express ourselves in an infinitely growing way.

Two such examples of this concept, and its limitations are the Hopi and Korean languages. I may be reciting Urban Legend here, so if anyone knows the details, please clue me in, but in a nutshell, at different times, these languages prevented a very simple task from being carried out due to the limitations of words.

In both cases, someone was trying to translate the Bible, so that they could be taught in the native tongue.

In the Hopi tongue, there was no word to convey the concept of a savior, and/or single omnipotent God. Their pantheon did just not apply in a collective sense, and they couldn't find the words to convey it.

In Korean, it was a similar situation, but it revolved around the concept of Brotherly love. Their literally was no word as "love" in that context, and their project suffered.

To those that have suffered, we offer whatever condolences we can, and we are vigilant (some of us even prone to violent opposition) of the need to allow others to do as they need to, whether it be in regards to religious practice, sexual orientation, or racial pride. We also do our best to help our fellow man (inclusive of both genders) to lead a fruitful life.

BUT, BUT, BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT, remember, you need to allow others to express themselves as well. I'm not inviting the Klan over to my house for tea, nor the Black Panthers, nor the Taliban or Newt Gingrich, but will I allow these (IMNSHO) idiots to open their mouths and say what they need to say.........

...and I'll be front row and center, correcting them anytime they misuse a word, misquote the bible, present a flawed thread of logic, or anything else that they say which falls under the categories of "misinformed", "naive", or "logic tripe". Perhaps they might learn something and figure out their mistakes.

(.02 plus a tip)

Mongo


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,Mongo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:16 PM

P.S. Praise, thank you for the warm invitation on the previous thread of this.

I do plan on hanging out here for a while... ;-)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

IMHO



I do have a definite, humble opinion about Rush Limbaugh. IMHO, It is mine. IMHO, I have corroborated it with education. Rush, IMHO, is the closest thing we Americans have to Hitler. IMHO, He inflames the uninformed, thrives on basic disenchantment, remains emotionally charged to the exclusion of all but his ratings, speads hate and misinformation, and does not back himself with verifiable facts. IMHO, these are precisely the tactics used by Hitler. IMHO, he is fanning the flames of discouragement, and burning anyone who stands in his way with off the hip harangues... The man couldn't love to save his life. IMHO

Rush is a very destructive man....


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM

Mongo... you are needed here. Selfishly, I suppose I would have to say that I hope you need to be here. Please join, so we can exchange PM's (private messages on personal page, free with free membership) or send me an e-ddress.

~Susan

motormice@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,Mongo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM

Thomas,

The scary fact is that you have just described every:

1. Fundamentalist (insert brand of worship here) 2. Cult 3. PMRC advocate (I'm voting for Gore, but damn, I wish I could impeach his wife) 4. Infomercial Producer 5. Insurance Salesmperson 6. Johnson & Johnson products


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:53 PM

Miss Mannersy points out that it is truly graceless to invoke unpleasant issues, including emotionally charged subjects, as well as those that are personally painful, in the course of what would otherwise be pleasant and casual conversation.

She also points out that it is equally graceless to make a belabored point of someone else's gracelessness.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM

Quotes by Rush Limbaugh:

"The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down." (radio show, 2/18/94)

"Women should not be allowed on juries where the accused is a stud." (ibid)

"Feminism was established as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society." (ibid)

Just a brief sample.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:07 PM

Hey Mousethief! You did some research! Good for you! Those quotes are all from 1994, however. Maybe he has mellowed a bit in the intervening years! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: domenico
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:10 PM

While I detest Mr. Limbaugh personally, I think the one point we're all missing is that anything that falls out of his mouth, is HIS NSHO...

...end of $#%@$ing story!

If people choose to listen to that tripe, so be it.

If people choose to BELIEVE it, they're more ignorant than they look.

If people APOSTLOTIZE it, wow, you need to be a little more interesting than the last magazine you just read for me to care....

but above all, if you don't like it...

A) Turn off the $%$%!#$%amn radio... B) Get your own talk show C) Publicly humiliate him in front of the *other* side of the political spectrum D) Ask me if I care.... :)

"Chicken is chicken, and tripe is tripe"

Domenico "the formerly cookieless, what-the-hell-was-my-login-" AKA Mongo


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: domenico
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:25 PM

With my last rant, I realize how far this thread wandered off of the original topic, so I'll now invite this:

Are there any other offensive terms under scrutiny?

I think I still like "folktator" the best... :)

In the name of tasteless humor:

"Del Signo Heil!"

Domenico/Mongo/InsertPseudonymHere


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:33 PM

DougR: I'm looking for more recent stuff. It's slow going; for every one site exposing Rush, there are 10,000 sites praising him (but without actual quotes that would be useful here!). It's a hard, lonely job, but somebody...

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:39 PM

From my Webster's dictionary: "Bigot 1. a person who holds blindly and and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc. 2. a narrow-minded, intolerant person."

I have listened to his radio show, and he seems to exibit those qualities. I've heard enough from him to have an opinion. He seems to hate liberals (read: anyone who disagrees with him) or any "rights" organization and people involved with them. He has a habit of calling anyone he sees as a feminist as a "femi-nazi." I've also heard him use the word the word "eco-nazi." This is enough to prove he's a bigot to me, although it's difficult to prove the absence of something - in this case tolerance. (Of course, I seem to remember him saying nasty things about tolerance, too.) What made me click the "off" switch on the radio, was when he would have callers who disagreed with him he would call them names, insult them, and otherwise avoid discussing the topic. I suppose he didn't think anyone would notice.

If anyone can offer any evidence that the man possesses a shred of tolerance or open-mindedness, I'd be mildly interested. (I'd also probably faint from the shock.)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM

So Jeri, using Webster's definition, I assume you would agree that a bigot could be either a liberal or a conservative. Es so? :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM

Actually, I put in my time listening to the jackass before I formed MY OPINION of him. Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks Rush is an a###ole, so I'll pass the torch on to others with more time than I have- or than Doug has when pressed to provide facts:CLICK HERE :>)

In the meantime, perhaps the rushapologists would like to provide "substantive arguments" proving that he's NOT a dangerous & obnoxious a###ole? Sheesh!

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:04 PM

DougR: on why it's so difficult to find more recent dirt on Rush: From Mother Jones online (www.motherjones.com):

When it comes to defining their enemy, Democrats are stuck in a time warp. They still criticize the in-your-face ranter who performed "caller abortions" on air, ridiculed "feminazis," and mocked people dying of AIDS. These hurtful, offensive routines helped Rush build an audience of angry white males, but they also sparked protests.

During a 1990 guest appearance on the "Pat Sajak Show," then CBS' late-night program, Limbaugh was rattled by ACT UP hecklers. To restore order, the entire audience was ushered out and a dejected Limbaugh delivered his final words to an empty studio. A CBS executive said, "He came out full of bluster and left a very shaken man. I had never seen a man sweat as much in my life."

Since then Rush has recalibrated his act. Recently, he criticized "anyone who takes pleasure" in the revelation that former Olympic diver Greg Louganis has AIDS. "It's just sad," he told his listeners. Rush will still resort to a fag joke now and then. He still makes fun of the homeless. He can still be reprehensible. But the new Rush is focused on partisan politics. His show is duller, more predictable, more strategic.

-----

Some actual Rush quotes

FAIR (a media watchdog group)

-----

That's the best I can do for now. Gotta go have dinner with my daughter.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM

Hmmmm...well, I read the original thread, and this new one...it took some time. First of all, congrats to Praise, Lena, Mongo, Thomas the Rhymer and numerous others for their great contributions, and perceptive comments.

We have two choices. We can love or we can fear. I believe that extremist political movements usually err in that they allow fear to become the dominant driving emotion, while love takes a back seat. They do harness love too, by the way, (love of their own group and its ideals and values) but fear tends to become the stronger force in their decision-making.

This was true of Hitler, and it was true of the Nazi movement that he founded.

Hitler was in no way aware that he was committing evil. In fact, he was quite certain of precisely the opposite, as were his more dedicated followers, particularly the young ones. They truly believed that they were saving the world (yes, the world!) from a huge conspiracy of Jews, Communists, and degenerates of various types (this was THEIR VIEW, NOT MINE, I hasten to add!).

They also believed they were getting an entirely appropriate revenge for the very punitive treatment inflicted on Germany at the end of the First World War, by Allied powers who should have known better. And they believed they were saving their nation from disaster.

The Allied powers paid the price of their own bigotry and shortsightedness in 1939-40, when the German blitzkrieg ravaged Western Europe and came within a hair of total victory (only England remained standing at the end of 1940...if England had fallen, Germany would have been master of Western Europe, and pretty untouchable, even by the USA.)

The Germans then proceeded to implement their own program of bigotry and destruction which excelled anyone else's at that time, with the one possible exception of Stalin.

In my own life (especially during the 50's and 60's) I personally witnessed the most extraordinary anti-German propaganda, and anti-Japanese propaganda all around me in the form of comic books, movies, idiotic TV shows (like Hogan's Heroes), ridiculous war novels, etc. The war comics when I was a kid routinely depicted ALL WII Germans and Japanese as incredible ugly, horrible sub-humans.

This was as despicable as the Nazi propaganda of the 3rd Reich in its utter unreality, and in its basic intentions, which were to slander and demonize an entire nation of people.

You would think that having had every major city and even most smaller towns smashed into rubble and having atomic bombs dropped on you, and having been utterly defeated and humiliated would be punishment enough...but NO...it was also apparently deemed necessary to continue churning out hate propaganda for decades afterward against the losers of that war. How would this make an ordinary German or Japanese feel? Think about it. Isn't just losing bad enough?

Every race on this planet (including Jews, Native Americans, Germans, Japanese, White Americans, Irish of both sides, English, Italians, Russians...and anyone else you can care to name who ever held notable military power...every one of them has committed genocidal atrocities at certain times in certain places on certain of their brothers and sisters. No nation's hands are clean.

If you don't think the Jews have committed genocide and land robbery, just look in the Old Testament or look at some of the recent history of the Middle East. This does not in any way condemn Jews as a people...it just shows that they are the same as the rest of us...capable of evil acts.

I love Native American culture and its people dearly. This does not blind me to the fact that Native Americans sometimes committed hideous tortures and atrocities on whomever they considered to be their "enemies" at the time (Natives or Whites).

No one is sacrosanct, and by the same token, no one is a race of demons.

Nazis, as individuals, ran the gamut...from the best and most exemplary individuals to the very worst. If you can't see that, then you need to look a whole lot further into the matter, and read everything you can about what happened in Europe in the 30's and 40's. The curse of the Nazi system was that it so strenuously encouraged the worst to rise to the top. That was because fear dominated that system.

Fear dominated Stalin's system too, and he killed more of his own people during his despicable administration of Russia than the entire Nazi regime managed to slaughter between 1936 and 1945.

Yet Stalin was an ally of the West.

The West was out to win, and they did. They also dropped atomic bombs on people (unnecessarily) and incinerated cities full of people (Hamburg and Dresden come to mind). The Germans tried to do the same, with somewhat lesser results, because they had a much weaker bomber force. Everyone committed atrocities. The American forces deliberately starved many thousands of young German POW's to death in prison camps, in the year or two mmediately following the end of the war (read the book "Other Losses").

Now, I am glad that the Allies won, but I am not fooled into thinking that one side was all good and the other side all bad. Do you think that the common German soldier had any idea he was defending evil? He did not. He believed he was defending good.

So, where am I going with this?

We are all human. We are all deserving of forgiveness. Populations which commit atrocities normally think they are defending the common good (of their "group"). They truly do not know what they are doing at the time....in the larger human sense. Since they do not know what they are doing, they are deserving of forgiveness.

Until Nazis recognize that Jews are equal humans (not monsters), and until Jews recognize that Nazis are equal human beings (not monsters)...neither one of them will be free of the horror of the past...or the desire for vengeance.

We should not forget, but we should always forgive.

In no other way will the conflicts be ended. Don't demonize anyone. Learn more about them. If you learn enough about them, you will begin to see their humanity, and then maybe you can find enough courage to forgive them...for not being the same as you...for not seeing things the same as you do.

Why does this word "Nazi" scare you so? Look into it. Why does the infamous "N" word scare people so much that I don't dare to post it on Mudcat? Look into it. How long are you going to keep living in fear? Remember Lenny Bruce? He was able to laugh at bigotry, because it is laughable.

As Roosevelt said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

I have had the gravest reservations about posting this at all, because I suspect some of you may not be quite ready to listen.

You must understand...I am on everyone's side (whether or not we agree on this or that). I have no enemy among you.

I hope there are no typos up there.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:22 PM

Mousethief,

Your point is succinct, well made and taken. I think his humor is unwise and often tasteless--and in my opinion juvenile (his references to breasts and other body parts often comes across no better than junior high school bathroom humor). I do think that the evolution of his show and its popularity does explain much of why this is. He tries to counter both the overwhelming imbalance in both the entertainment and news media. To the conservative of the 80's there was a void in non-boring ways to talk about issues that mattered to them. It had the reputation of being the domain of the stuffy. The liberal perspective, while not unified, had a two-armed stranglehold on public sentiment. The entertainment media could be irreverent, non-factual, biting (would anyone want to BE Quayle?), and a useful tool to sway public thinking. It was capable of marginalizing conservative thought by humorously making it seem extreme and the realm of the kooky. At the same time, the news media was capable of slanting most news stories because they have maintained the illusion of impartiality (Who would believe that Jim Lehrer was as ideologically driven as Rush Limbaugh?--He's just a news man right?). Whether wisely or un Rush was able to fill that void but as you have noted, one can't be the irreverent humorist and also be taken seriously without some fallout. As to whether he "leads" his listeners or not, generally they are angry with him a good share of the time--he's either being too extreme for their tastes or not extreme enough--believe it or not the right is at least as diverse as the left. These are just my observations from 10 years of off and on listening. Incidentally, I won't disavow him but I am among the number that OFTEN disagrees with him. He does however, reflect news sources that often vary from the mainstream and I have many times found them to be more accurate. I find it of value to hear more than one side. Hey, I'm here ain't I? :)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM

Alex, that explains why his website looks like "Rush Lite."

Doug, actually yes - anybody can be a bigot, and some folks can be bigoted sometimes, and not bigoted at others. Some take it to an extreme, and those are the ones who get labeled. It's an awfully vile word to call people who exibit traits we've probably all been guilty of at some point. Just another label. It seems to me the difference between a bigot and someone who just has an opinion they're sure of is that a bigot won't listen to anyone else, and doesn't even consider another point of view. They have a sort of armored door that slams down whenever a different opinion/idea/viewpoint threatens. It's a result of personality, not politics, although I wonder why many of them are Republicans...;-)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM

Little Hawk, I think that was a particularly good piece of work there.

Call me crazy, I pray for Satan. I wouldn't let him get his hooks into me or anyone else close enough that I could to do something about it, make no mistake. But pray? Yes. Tough prayer, but pray? Yes. I have seen evil formed from one person's pain being passed along to another not strong enough to bear it. The only evil I cannot comprehend is the evil I am not close enough to see for the mask it is. But even in that situation we have a free will that can choose to NOT pass along a hurt, to give into an evil.

I expect complete individual responsibility. Maybe I just have learned to be more realistic about how people actually operate it. And to see at the end of too many days the love I did not give, and the difference it might have made if I had given as much as I have received.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:43 PM

All through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall, always.

--Mahatma Gandhi


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:52 PM

Limbaugh forms his arguments from a "High Ground" position and then cloaks his bigotry with "facts." If you dispute his, your own are either in error or from a "liberal" source. Its not an uncommon practice by any means (we have Conrad Bladey here) and Rush plays to his crowd. We are all bigots to some degree on some subjects. Most of us are open enough to see that and try to challenge our own beliefs when we can. It is far easier though to feel comfort in the agreement with those who bolster our beliefs then to look openly at them, test them, challenge them, evaluate them.........and sometimes change them.

Most of the time we have no idea from where a belief has come. AS a child I was deathly afraid of snakes. I never even saw one, never had a bad experience, or any experience for that matter. I eventually overcame the fear by challenging the belief that all snakes were vile, slimy, evil, sneaky, things laying in wait for me. The process was angst ridden, but the end result was good.

Our beliefs come from strange places and sometimes we have an underlying bigotry that is unexpressed until encountered. Here's an example. Do you like "The Jungle Book?" Nice story huh? I could make a case that it is wrong in its family values and is prejudiced against alternative families, blatantly anti-adoption. I mean, Mowgli will never be right until he is with his own kind.

Now you're saying, "C'mon Pat, nobody really thinks that." Well, I hope not, but what it DOES point out is that we all can become so sensitized to a subject that any reference becomes a "Call to Arms" to defend our position.

Tolerance. Open mindedness. Honest evaluation of beliefs. Honesty with each other. Honesty with ourselves. Tough goals all......Hope I make it to them all someday, I think its worth the effort.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:25 PM

Looking at those quotes, I suggest that calling anybody a buddy of Rush Limbaugh ought to count as an example of the type of over-the-top insult that we should avoid perpetrating on the Mudcat. Makes you want to wash your mind out. The Si Kahn link Praise directed us to is a good way of doing that.

And Doug, of course you can get bigots with all kind of political views along the left/right spectrum. But by definition anyone who is a bigot is illiberal ("narrow-minded, bigoted, intolerant" - dictionary definition). I find it very strange the way Americans use the word liberal as if it were the opposite of conservative and so forth.

But then everyone does it in all countries, attach some word that has a useful meaning to some much narrower political creed. For example Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Progressive. A conservative is someone who doesn't fancy the idea of change, and the old ways are the best. In Russia a conservative is someone who thinks things were better off in Soviet times.

My dream is to live in a world where I could be a conservative, because things would have changed so much that I wanted them to stay the way they are. Can't see it happening in my lifetime.

And since I'd sooner talk out differences than shout them down, that defines me as liberal, just as it defines most of the other people on the Mudcat, regardless of politics.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: domenico
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM

Little Hawk, kudos to the in-depth analysis. For those of us a bit too young to have seen the ugliest of the propaganda wars, it is a good primer to the time, and the ugliness that the good 'ol U S of A perpetrated.

A quick observation in that vein: A couple years back, a TV station went to fill some dead air after a movie with some Popeye Cartoons (typical, and not uncommon). The scary thing was, the one 'toon they showed was from '42-43, and it was obviously not done by the Max Fleisher Studio (you can tell by the style of the brushstrokes). The scariest thing about it was when Popeye foiled "the Japs", ate his Spinach, and started to kick some serious @$$, the "impact bubbles" (think "Biff!" on the Batman series) were not your typical jaggedy-explosiony-thingies, but swastikas... I was slackjawed staring at this, and amazed that those cartoons were still in the vaults of a TV station, let alone being aired at 4:50 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon. Talk about tasteless, those swastikas flying all over the place, and all of the sterotypical Japanese charicatures (Glasses, big teeth, I'm sure you've seen it before) were the most disgusting display I've ever seen, and I still haven't quite forgiven our Government for ever producing that garbage.

Back to the "Nazi" issue, I wanted to add one more thought for the day, from our good buddy, Mr. Sun Tsu (and re-iterated by Mr. Machiavelli). This is dedicated to all those who have suffered some type of horror, whether it be Internment, Concentration Camps, Death Squads, or other unpleasantries, who have faced the demon, have survived, and are moving on with their lives. It kind of goes hand in hand with the "Forgive, but never forget" motif, and has worked marvelously for me on all levels. It reads:

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".

Don't be traumatized by words, but allow them to help you understand your opponenent.

Understand them, and you can defeat them. As you meet the Metzgers, the Hitlers, the swallowers of bile, the vermin that plague sense and reason, listen, think, reason, and act. You will find that the only people that believe that crap are those that have no real opinions of their own, and ususally have no real grasp of self-worth. As you understand them, you can correct them, and hopefully, they may listen...

...but always keep your hand on the bat.... :)

And lastly, the one statement that never gets heard enough, and I want to thank Praise for it's brevity and clarity:

"I expect complete individual responsibility..."

My God, I want this tattoed on my forehead, and made into a neon sign over my house.

Thank you Praise, I think I'm going to translate that into Latin, and make a banner of it for taking out to the Renaissance Faires, I like it, I like it, I like it... :)

(Stepping off Soapbox)

Domenico/Mongo


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM

I read that as "I accept complete individual responsibility", and had to check back to Praise's post, and it was "expect" all right. But I still got the feeling "accept" was what was meant. In a sense the only person you've got a duty to judge is yourself. (Making judgements about actions is another matter.)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: domenico
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM

Being as I try to live by the beliefs I state, it is assumed that I, too, will live up to people "...expecting me to have complete individual responsibility..."

...which I why I'm so surprised I haven't been slammed yet... :)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM

Mbo - thank you for that quote. It is one of the greatest statements from a very great servant of humanity.

Susan - Thanks! Nope, I don't call you crazy. I say, you've got it right. You are inspired. There's nothing out there that did not come from God, from the original Creative Source. There is nothing out there that is not capable of redemption. The Beatles said a good one when they sang "And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make."

Spaw - very well said. I also challenged some of my long-held fears, and prejudices...and they melted away as I peeled off the old layers of fear and ignorance. I've got a few more prejudices to do that with yet. It's an ongoing process.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:58 PM

One reason Limbaugh's name came up in the first place on this thread was because of his use of the word femin***. Your reasons for disliking the man's methods and personality are quite adequate without using the misunderstanding that he refers to feminists that way. He doesn't. He has clearly tried time and again to dispel that without success (the payback for tasteless humor). What he refers to by that name has a logical reason--he believes there to still be pro-choice proponents who are still of the Margret Sanger persuasion and believe abortion to be a valuable tool for eugenics and population control for nations "racially imbalanced". One might argue the premise, but if the premise is true than the moniker is probably accurate. He has said that ther are few he would consider femin***.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:59 PM

Greg F: Interesting that you chose that particular posting. Had you scrolled up a bit, you would find that I did considerable research on the subject that was being discussed (which did not in any way have anything to do with the discussion in this thread). You would not have liked what I found in my research, however.

No matter though. Why expect fairness?

Break your pick on the big ones I say.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:08 PM

McGrath - Exactly! The only person you're equipped to judge is yourself...when it comes to others, all you can do is judge their actions, as best you are able to. You can't judge them, because you don't have the knowledge or authority to do so. You can try to make a shrewd guess as to whether it's safe or advisable to be around them, of course, but that's another matter entirely.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:28 PM

Is anyone else getting a queasy feeling about how this went from the use of the term 'folk Nazi' which I'd hoped most would find at least rude if not offensive, to discussing the 'merits' of good and not so good Nazis? I find this scary, and I doubt it's what Mike Reigenstreif had in mind.

M


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Subject: THANK YOU LITTLE HAWK
From: GUEST,Ernst Zundel
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM

On behalf of neo-Nazis everywhere, I would like to personally congratulate LITTLE HAWK for his enlightened essay.

As LIITLE HAWK points out, we are not the monsters that the Jews and their fellow travelers make us out to be.

We love the Jews as fellow human beings and would be very happy to see them all gathered together in their own homeland of Israel.

Similarly, we love the Negroes and would be very happy to see them all gathered together in their own homeland of Africa.

I would like to say that we are ready to forgive the Jews for their centuries of trespass against Christianity and our proud white race.

But the problem with the Jews is that they just can't seem to forgive and forget that little episode of genocide during the war. And to think, it was only European Jewry that we were almost successful in completely exterminating. We never touched the millions in the Americas.

So, until the millions of Jews of the world are prepared to forget about that little episode, the liberals of the world bend to the wishes of their Jewish media masters and demonize us, the neo-Nazis.

If only the Jews had the great wisdom of LITTLE HAWK.

And to the liberals of the world who don't accept the teachings of LITTLE HAWK, you to are probably just Jews who don't want to admit it.

Long live Naziism. As LITTLE HAWK says, we are not monsters. We are the equals of the Jews.

THANK YOU LITTLE HAWK. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR ENLIGHTENED TEACHING. WE FEEL YOU ARE ONE OF US.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:52 PM

Kinda' been waiting for that now haven't we?

Now let's move on.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:53 PM

And what rock did you crawl out from under, Guest EZ? Up until now this thread and the similar one posted earlier contained mostly enlightend discussion, IMO.

Now you come along.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:54 PM

That's OK DougR- no need to apologize; I don't expect fairness. Read the WHOLE posting, and you're wrong- what I didn't like was what you didn't find in your research, but should have. ;-) I'm outa this thread for the duration- enjoy.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: domenico
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:09 PM

Actually, I thought it was a discussion on:

A) Allowing a word to disparage oneself, and Pro's and Con's of said words and behaviors

B) About understanding the facets of human opinions, and how people should and should not express themselves, in order to avoid over-generalizations and engender a better understanding of one another.

C) An analysis of the Nazi party's opinions and actions, from an informed, non-judgmental perspective, in order to help identify said actions and behaviors in other organizations/parties/individuals

D) A general bitch session about Rush Limbaugh

Correct me if I'm wrong, please....

Domenico/Mongo


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: domenico
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:35 PM

Wow, I feel in my element...

(cracking of knuckles)

...let's get to business...

First I want to preface this with, "I shouldn't even deem this with a reply, but I will.... " :)

First off, Mr. Zundel, I happily invite gutter-snipe to discussions of all matters, and I'll even include a misinformed lout such as yourself into the fray...

First off, and I'm sure you've heard this one before, but clearly it didn't sink in.... Jesus Christ (as in Christian) was *ding ding* A JEW!

That's right boys and girls, all Christians everywhere need to bow down to Moses and the Twelve Tribes for collecting *ding ding*, right again, the "Old Testament".

It just so happens that what you referred to as "trespassing" happens to have been the way that led to your worshiping a dead guy on a stick instead of a Bull, Ram, or some bearded guy who throws axes for a living. Think about it....

Next topic, the Nazi party.... guess what pal, "Nazi" is not an "ism", it was a "Socialist Democratic" political party active in Germany during its Fascist period in the 30's and early 40's. If you're a Fascist, you're a Fascict, if you're into "Nazi'ism", you're about 70 years too late, they're long gone.

Lastly, the beliefs you are aspiring to do not neccesarily sound fascist, but rather (watch out, a new word for the day) a *separatist*. Say it with me, SE-PAH-RAH-TIST.

Your choices in finding political happiness with a SE-PAH-RAH-TIST ideal are limited to Montana, Quebec, and Afghanistan. Pick one, and get the F%^#CK off our thread.

Domenico/Mongo


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM

Ha! Ha! What a treat, indeed. There's no way that guy could possibly be the real Ernst Zundel, cos even old Ernst isn't quite that dumb...I don't think. Of course, who knows? Maybe he is that dumb. But I seriously doubt it.

Our guest EZ, sure doesn't read very attentively, does he? I merely said, (as does the American Declaration of Independence)...that all human beings are created equal. If Hitler had realized that...there would have been no Nazi Party in the first place, no holocaust, no World War II most likely ('cept maybe in the Pacific), and nothing for yahoos like Guest EZ to get all worked up about either.

Wouldn't that be nice?

And yes, Jesus was NOT a christian, he was a Jew. The Christians came later. I believe that Jesus might say to a good many of those Christians (given their hideous historical record) "Get away from me. I never knew you."

But he wouldn't say that to Praise.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 01:55 AM

Little Hawk, although I find myself in agrrement with many of the points in your lengthy post,I have to take issue with the statement "Until Nazis recognize that Jews are equal humans (not monsters), and until Jews recognize that Nazis are equal human beings (not monsters)...neither one of them will be free of the horror of the past...or the desire for vengeance.

We should not forget, but we should always forgive."

To me,this statement puts on a par Jews,who are a religious sub-culture of the world, with Nazis,who were a behavioral aberration of the German people,their beliefs induced by a madman. While the Jews may show forgiveness for the German people,it is ridiculous that any forgiveness be extended to the Nazis of the Third Reich,or to anyone who would in today's world call themselves by that sobriquet.If the Nazis did not transform themselves from human beings into monsters,they sure as hell had a better go at it than nearly any other group I could name.

I think it was this statement that invited the retaliation by Ernst Zundel. In his outrage,he cast himself as a neo-Nazi to throw a figurative arm over your shoulder and damn you as a comrade.

When you state that the average German soldier did not believe his cause evil,I agree. But the average German was not a Nazi.Many average Germans did,however,sell their souls to the Nazis for the price of a little Pride and Prosperity.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:06 AM

Greg F: I realize you are probably gone, but I must have given you the wrong impression. I wasn't apologizing. I was merely pointing out that you had selected a posting out of context. Not uncommon practice in some circles when one wants to discredit someone.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Grab
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:48 AM

Posted as a reply to folks from the last thread:-

Mike and offended guest, I'm sincerely sorry if it sounded bigoted - that wasn't my intention at all. I can only say that I find any and all discrimination totally disgusting, and the "tribal" attitude of gangs of various natures beating up on others, particularly those weaker than themselves, is sickening.

My question about whether the greater Jewish population in the US affects how the whole country sees the war was an honest query. Whilst the US lost least (in terms of ppl, property and money) in the war, there's ppl criticising comedy programmes about the war as demeaning those involved, which seems to be excessively touchy to me, but then I'm from the UK and I don't know the US culture. I do know that there is a large Jewish population in the US, so I was simply asking whether this affects things - whether it's considered that it was so close to home for them that comedy about the war is generally considered to be in bad taste.

I know there's plenty to be ashamed of about that war, not least that the British and Americans were conspicuous by their silence during the late 30's, when some Jewish refugees were forcibly repatriated to Germany (and to their deaths) by both countries in various incidents, and also with the indiscriminate bombing of civilians by both the Allied and Axis planes. I find this shameful for the countries involved, but since neither I nor even my father were alive then, it's not something I can feel personally involved in, any more than I can feel personally upset about the conditions my Scottish ancestors faced under English rule. 3 generations on, it's history - admittedly it's recent history, and an example of what should never be allowed to happen again (although the UN seems to be powerless to stop it), but it's something that happened in the past nonetheless. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but the fact that my grandfather may have shot and been shot at doesn't change my attitude to the war.

What _isn't_ history is the fact that thugs exist everywhere and need to find excuses to justify their mindless violence. There's the KKK and black street-gangs in the US, there's Catholics and Protestants in NI, there's Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda, there's football (soccer) fans in Britain - the list is endless. Regardless of education or geographic location, tribalism seems to be a feature of the human condition. But there's a great Terry Pratchett line which sums it up - "Only animals can't help the way they are". If we're human beings with individual consciousness, and with a _conscience_ too, then we shouldn't give in to that kind of impulse. It's called "civilisation" and "society". And by far the easiest way of getting rid of support for a bigoted viewpoint is making its supporters look ridiculous. Alf Garnett with his bigoted views was a classic comedy character, but at the same time he summed up the bigoted attitudes of older ppl of the time and made them look utterly stupid.

GeorgeH, the far right are seriously in favour of gun ownership. Hence the phrase "gun Nazis" could actually have some real-life meaning, ie. neo-Nazis who own guns. Or was the person earlier (somewhere on the other thread...) who came up with that phrase using it about ppl who were _against_ gun ownership?

Grab.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM

Last night, after signing off, I felt seriously in need of a "music bath". I don't often find myself in the position of correcting the record on Limbaugh--a distasteful task in and of itself. I started by playing through "Secret O' Life, "Hope (Robin's Song)"-Morrison

...You've got to stare it in the face, you can't flinch and look away You can't deny what's going down But if you draw your loved ones around you and you hang on tight you can hold a little ground. When all is said and done Here at the ending of the day I look out on this world-- It still takes my breath away.

I played some comforting hymns ending with Amazing Grace (which I played as a sad blues last night).

I always remember an obscure news story from a few years ago. The story was about the vacationing First Family inviting James Taylor to come over to their vacation house and serenade them. A slow grin spread from ear to ear as I suddenly realized that it was JT who had the real power at that summit. The government can make me miserable, poor, even jeopardize my life, but music can touch my soul, encourage me to be a better man than I currently am in spite of my circumstances. Music can bring together a diverse group as this to civily discuss issues about which we REALLY disagree. WE have the power.

Old Devil fear, you with your icy hands Old Devil fear, you'd like to freeze me cold When I'm afraid, my lovers gather 'round And help me fight you one more time

Old Devil hate, I knew you long ago Before I learned the poison in your breath Now when I hear your lies, my lovers gather 'round And help me rise to fight you one more time

No storm nor fire can ever beat us down No wind that blows, but carries farther on And you who fear, oh lovers gather 'round And we will rise to sing it one more time

-Seeger (sorry I don't know how to do the clickety thing)

Now, this guest has overstayed his wecome. Best wishes,

John


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM

Consider this a sidebar, please!

Little Hawk, I haven't seen the book, Other Losses, but I found the e-dress where the author is selling it: www.jamesbacque.com.

I must say the blurb promoting the book bothers me- it sounds straight out of National Enquirer, the Globe, et al. Bacque may be a legitimate researcher/writer but the blurb does not invite confidence.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: SDShad
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:38 PM

Is Rush Limbaugh bigoted?

Consider the following text quoted from the FAIR site that mousethief linked to:

As a young broadcaster in the 1970s, Limbaugh once told a black caller: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back." A decade ago, after becoming nationally syndicated, he mused on the air: "Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"

In 1992, on his now-defunct TV show, Limbaugh expressed his ire when Spike Lee urged that black schoolchildren get off from school to see his film Malcolm X: "Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out."

In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the NAACP, a group with a ninety-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."

When Carol Moseley-Braun (D-IL) was in the U.S. Senate, the first black woman ever elected to that body, Limbaugh would play the "Movin' On Up" theme song from TV's "Jeffersons" when he mentioned her. Limbaugh sometimes still uses mock dialect -- substituting "ax" for "ask"-- when discussing black leaders.

Such quotes and antics -- many compiled by Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) for our 1995 book -- offer a whiff of Limbaugh's racial sensibility. So does his claim that racism in America "is fueled primarily by the rantings and ravings" of people like Jesse Jackson. Or his ugly reference two years ago to the father of Madonna's first child, a Latino, as "a gang-member type guy" -- an individual with no gang background.

I dunno. You tell me.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:16 PM

I think the whole thing about "the only person you can judge is yourself" is a little too strongly stated.

I'm a father, and if I'm trying to hire a babysitter for my kids, you damned well BET I'm going to JUDGE that person, and if I think they are at all likely to harm my kids in any way, I won't hire them.

Unlimited "open-mindedness" is for people without kids. Those of us with children can't afford it.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM

Who's seen the movie Little Big Man? Remember the Contrary Person, who did everything backwards? Several years ago I read a book about Plains Indian customs, and sure enough, the Contrary Person really did exist.

This person did everything backwards so that other people, especially children, would know how NOT to behave.

Taking into account the yin and yang of the Universe, and the 3rd chapter of Ecclesiastes, the Rush Limbaughs and Howard Sterns and Francisco Francos and various and sundry other despots will always be around in some form. There is a time to love, a time to hate, a time for war, and a time for peace. That's not likely to change anytime soon. :)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: SDShad
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 03:29 PM

I don't know, Kim. Ecclesiastes is on of my favorite books in the Bible, and in a general, yin-and-yang, fundamental-interconnectednes-of-all-things sort of way, I see the point you're making.

But somehow, I just don't think that the people of Guernica would've found much worthwhile in the notion that Francisco Franco was just being a heyoka.

But yeah. Limbaugh definitely fits into the "cautionary example to others" category. At least.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM

Well, maybe not all despots are contrary people. Perhaps some of them are just plain wicked. :)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:09 PM

I have a question. I don't mean to be obstinate or overly inflammatory. I would just like an honest, introspective answer. Were any of you this disturbed/angry/outraged when our next president (USA) referred to Christian conservatives as "the missing chromosome..."?


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Mbo
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:12 PM

It's funny how my one little phrase turned into this. That's right folks, Rush is EVIL! Why don't we just Zyklon-B him as well? Come on. He's a flamer just like any other. Ignore him and he will go away.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM

I partially agree with you, MBO. If enough people were to ignore Rush, not listen to him at all, he would go away.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:42 PM

Unless I am much mistaken the post by GUEST Ernst Zundel was intended as heavy irony. Heavy-handed maybe as well, but from an anti-nazi position. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened here. Irony is a risky weapon to wield.

And of course I could be wrong, from the other side of an ocean divide that's not just water. If I was just going by the Limbaugh quotes I'd think he was a leftie taking the piss out of the people who believe that stuff.

And moonthief, of course I'm not saying we shouldn't use our judgement about who we should trust, and what is likely to be the result of our decisions. We should and we must, and too much of the time we don't. What I'm saying is that we mustn't get into the way of thinking we are ok, we are morally better than other people who do things we haven't yet done. It's people thinking and talking in those terms who have done the worst things in history. "I thank you Lord that I am not like that publican..."

All the monsters aren't out there in the dark - if we think they are we are letting them in the back door. That's not just true in horror movies.

As for the Nazis, it wasn't so much that they were more evil than people in all the other nations who have being involved in ethnic cleansing - but they carried it through with an obsessive mechanical efficiency which made the effect far far worse.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:18 PM

Sorry, I remembered after punching "submit" it's EXTRA chromosome. Question's still the same.

John


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:25 PM

Moonthief? I knew there was a man in the moon, but MICE?

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:28 PM

Which future president was that? And was he thinking having an extra chromosone was a good thing or a bad thing? Some of these future presidents (and past and present presidents for that matter - and prime ministers as well) seem to have considerable lacunae in their knowledge about things like that...


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:49 PM

McGrath,

Sorry, I was trying to short-cut on future thoughts by implying the impact of the answer. Al Gore is the future president referred to and extra chromosome refers to the medical condition that causes Down's syndrome. The reason for the short-cut was that I thought with the number of forum members who intend to vote fpr Mr Gore they might catch the implication. If a radio talk-show host shows his bigotry by the inflammatory language he uses he can be turned off/ignored. By one's answer one might conclude that it is tolerable to that person for me to have a president who is bigotted against me for my religious beliefs.

John


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,Rush
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:11 PM

Religious fundamentalists of whatever persuasion being possibly the greatest bigots in the universe this should not be a problem! Now, how do we turn YOU off?


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM

Gore (1994) was commenting on that paragon of truth and virtue Oliver North and his lunatic fringe right-wing Iran-Contra supporters with the admittedly unfortunate chromosome bit.

Had nothing whatsoever to do with religion.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:06 PM

Ok Yank, but again, was it merely "unfortunate" would it merely be "unfortunate" out of the mouth of somebody with whom you don't agree? I still think the nature of the original question is intact.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:16 PM

As a one-time statement- subsequently apologized for, as Gore did- from someone I disagreed with, yes, it would be 'unfortunate'.

As an oft-repeated exemplar of a career of intolerence, such as Mr. Limbaugh's, it would not.

Cheers.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:11 AM

Little Hawk,

While I can hear your point, the people who were Nazis did think they were Christians, and as far as I know, all Christians adhere to the commandments, of which one is 'Thou shalt not kill'.

While it is a basic tenet of my (Christian) faith that all of mankind are God's children and are infinitely lovable as such, those that do not express God in the form of (in the case of the Nazis) loving their neighbors (Which as Jesus pointed out could well be someone of a totally different faith and culture)and not killing, stealing, etc. are very difficult to love concretely. I'm sorry, I do think many of those who gave the orders for the 'final solution' were not even in their own eyes saving the world, but ridding the world of a people they hated. And many of them knew it was wrong. But they did it anyway.

You are absolutely right that all cultures have practiced genocide. It does not make it right, and we all need to work to rid the world of these wrongs, no matter who the perpetrator and who the victim. ( I think some of the things the Isrealis are doing to the Palestineans are pretty awful as well and need to stop.)

And we need to start with the hate we feel. OK I'll try. I have a young man with some definite neo-nazi sympathies living in my house right now as an AFS student. Truly I think the best I can give him is a healthy dose of a more liberal viewpoint, so he will maybe understand why most people find the neo-nazi way of looking at the world to be wrong. I cannot beat him over the head or pitch him out, but maybe I can love SOME of the hell out of him.

P.S. I too have listened to Rush--for as long as I could stand it--and found him to be unwilling to answer those he didn't agree with in a civil manner, instead resorting to name calling and disconnection when he couldn't cow a caller he disagreed with. And no I have much better things to do with my time now than listen to him...

Cami Su


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:24 AM

First, help! Get me offa this damn pedestal! Yeah, hand me down like an old lady out of a carriage... creaky knee... various shortcomings.... the day's failures.... the ethnic jokes I used to tell... mistakes as a parent, bad ones..... a lie here or there.... naw, I ain't confessing, I have already done so and been forgiven, but PLEASE see ALL of me, even when I am working hard to share only my best, friends! Or I don't wanna be here!

Second, could I suggest that we avoid the temptation to keep adding every possible public example of stupidity to the list? The thread will get far too long to load, in no time. We will have endless Parts III, IV, and so on... the planet is quite full of people who have used some of their 15 minutes of fame to wave their stupdidity aloft.

I have a theory. Christians and non-Christians, tell me what you think. It's my new way of describing what sin is. Have you noticed how that word [sin] has the effect of entirely turning most minds off? What if instead we were to say, "Oh, sin just means you were [or I was] acting like an a**hole again." Don't we all do that? Can we all agree that it is part of the human way as we know it today?

OK, so if we can agree on that to some extent, then the problem of judging others, convicting them in our hearts, should be something we can give up. We can just decide to see it as, "Oh, they were just taking their turn at acting like an a**hole. Now I can take mine." Assume that at any given moment between two people, at least one of them is acting (or is about to act!) like an....

Because my theory is that acting like an a**hole is the first thing people tend to do as soon as we get close enough to another human being to feel like it might be safe. You see it most clearly with children. Just as soon as they are sure you are completely delighted with them, they start showing off how they can squish mashed potatoes through their teeth.

Well I have decided to see flamers like that. That they have found a place where there is enough evidence of decent humanity to squish out some mashed potatoes to see what kind of reaction they will get. Me, I think I will react by playing peekaboo, I see you. Kids love that game.

Yeah. Now I know how to ALWAYS have fun at the Mudcat. When I see someone acting like an a**hole, I will not only pray for them, I'll play peekaboo or offer to tickle them. Aw.

Hey, remind me somebody, if I forget?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM

Now that Little Hawk has spoken and treated us to his all-knowing, infinite wisdom, I see no further need for discussion about Hitler and Nazis. He has enlightened us so that we all may rejoice in the fact that Hitler and his cronies were just misunderstood little men and the Holocaust was just a prank. Wow, I just feel so darn good, now! I bet there are lots of people who feel all better about it. Shall we take a poll ... Groucho Marxist (be sure to show this thread to your parents) ... Guest,Jew (it's obviously time for a re-write of the history books) ... Moonchild & Moonchild's stepgrandmother (tell her Bergen Belsen was really Elizabeth Arden's Red Door) ... Guest,Buber (hey, relatives aren't really all they're made out to be)? Hmmm. I'm not getting a real good response from them, so maybe they are just skeptics.

Editorials on The Holocaust, or any holocaust, are out of place. Period. It happened, it continues to happen. Period.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:37 AM

can't help but wonder how 'Ernst' and 'Rush' and various anonymous guests would phrase these things face to face... The WWW sure has made it easy to spew vitriol and nastiness and to sow rancor with impunity, huh? Used to be you had to get your hands dirty with Mimeograph ink and stick leaflets under car windows....but now we have progress!

(cant even tell if we have one 'guest' or 27 being snide and cynical)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:38 AM

I propose we end this thread now. It has served a number of good purposes. But many of us know that it is now attracting posts best ignored. So how about it? How abou we move on now? Vote yes by not posting.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:27 AM

I vote no. Thomas the Rhymer here, having to post under my sweet lover's name, because she accidently assumed my identity when she began hers!!!

There is so much pain in this world. Plenty of it came from pain. Blaming others is not a solution. Flaming decent people is abhorent. Reacting is abhorent. So is stuffing emotion. Humans may seek enlightenment, but that does not mean we all do. Why is this?

I despise the situations that 'inspire' people to become fascists. Nazi is insanity. People seem to think that we have no responsibility to others, except to our family, our country, our friends... But strangers? Of strangers we are suspicious, of strangers we allow ourselves to think fear into the equation. Why is this?

When people are alienated from themselves, from nature, from happiness, from relaxation, from nutrition,... from love... what then? Where are our lives facing? Where are the lessons in happiness?

I just don't ascribe to the notion that the Nazi is lovable. I can relate to the notion that child within the Nazi is starving for love and that we can deliver... Perhaps we should act differently now than people did in WW2, but it is kind of hard to imagine loving someone who wants to kill you, and intends to see it through. ESPECIALLY if you are morally bound to ethical behavior. I admire the "resistance" that worked underground during that war, and there is no telling how many lives were saved because of it. I just don't appreciate handing your good life over to the cruel and despotic, as a fine option. Unless (maybe), it is in civil disobedience...

Loving your enemy sounds good, but your own life is extremely valuable. If you are truly "enlightenment" material, don't pour it through a sieve.

I definately do not feel ok with the IDEA that people can commit atrocities unknowingly, and still be lovable. Please explain to me how this would work.

Love and hope, ttr


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:33 AM

Guest who posted at 12:28am on the 16th of September: Your reply would have had a much greater impact had you had the cojones to sign your name to it.

I recognize good sarcasm when I see it.

DougR (Who cannont understand why anyone who feels strongly about a subject is reluctant to sign his/her name when posting to a thread)


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:28 AM

I must apologize. I have to admit that I couldn't really see why my questions were percieved as attempts to be a "flamer". I now see that it is because of the inherant dishonesty in the way I asked the questions--always attempting to ask in a way that I thought might cause you to see things from a different perspective, rather than to just elicit an answer. I should have been wise enough to recognize 1.(from having read the "Have you changed your mind" thread) that it was unlikely, 2.I'm the outsider and you owe me no explanations.

If I had approached you honestly I would have stated from the very outset that the reason I feel this whole nazi/bigot/tolerance issue so strongly is that I fear becoming the next victim of the next wave (of genocide or at least its political equivalent). Whichever came first I don't know, but my beloved fundamental Christianity has been stolen by a small vocal leadership that I believe to be distorting its core (fundamental) truth. As a result I am aware that I'm watching a whole society, hell-bent on tolerance at any cost, choose Christianity (and to a lesser extent, any "revelatory" religion) as the only thing intolerable.

I have changed my mind (to answer the before mentioned thread). I now think that there is no "you" here at the mudcat. I think "you" is as varied as the chords on my guitar (I'm pretty sure that that "catspaw" guy is an aug chord, but I don't think there's a dim one in the house). I really have appreciated so many of the thoughtful posts, CamiSu's last one particularly on point, and I'll probably continue to lurk around here (like a rubbernecker at an auto accident) until this thread peters out, but I think/hope I've learned my place.

John


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Ram Shackle
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:04 AM

I've read and reread the essay by Little Hawk. It is an offensive piece of anti-Semitic garbage.

As far as I'm concerned the Nazis, and their modern day followers, are and were MONSTERS and enemies of the human race.

I have nothing but contempt for the Little Hawks of this world who would seek to humanize these murderers, these monsters.

To the Little Hawks of this world, I say ROT IN HELL with your Nazi friends.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:45 AM

There seems to be a prevalent belief in USian culture (can't speak for anyone else) that anger makes us strong. Anger is one step away from hate. Be the target Nazis, a guest on Jerry Springer, politicians, people we don't agree with or those who post nasty messages to Mudcat, some of us revel in indignant anger. Some of us wear it like an old coat. Some of us look for enemies, people to hold in contempt, as Ram does above, people to de-humanize. We are righteous, we are on a crusade. There are reasons to be angry, but IMO, one shouldn't make a lifestyle out of it.

Anger is one step away from hate. Anger can justify any treatment of fellow humans. ("ROT IN HELL" ???) You let it cool down and solidify, and it actually becomes hate. The next time you see the monster, it will be in your mirror - even if looks to you like a person who thinks they have a RIGHT to treat other people like sub-humans.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:08 AM

May I a) return to the original topic and b) voice a dissenting opinion? (the question is obviously rhetorical, as I'm not waiting for an answer)

The use of hyperbole is a fine, useful tool in language. "Folk Nazi" doesn't trivialize Nazis any more than "a flood of letters" trivializes the Johnstown flood or " so-and-so bombed at a concert" trivializes bombs. The conscious exaggeration provides a quick emotional trigger, which is why it was used in the first place; it's not a matter of logical interpretation.

And, while I personally detest Mr. Limbaugh, I think that FemiNazi was a brilliant, evocative neologism.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM

The Nazis weren't aliens from another galaxy. They were ordinary human beings, very like the people who live in your street and in my street. They liked beer and foklksongs and Disney movies.

People who had done appalling things came home and went on with their lives, and melted imperceptibly into the ordinary world.

That's what's so frightening. The potential to be like them is there inside us. This animal is not to be trusted.

Pretending the Nazis were totally different from us is comforting, but it doesn't do anything to help in finmding ways of avoiding the truiggers that can turn seemingly decent people into "monsters and enemies of the human race", in Nazi Germany, in Ruanda, in My Lai. A few years ago people were sweeriously advocating dropping nuclear weapons on enemy cities. There are still people who say things like "Nuke 'em" when conficts spriong up, and they give every sign of meaning it. And the ordinary decent peopel around them howl out and recoil in horror, they shrug and mutter things like "Well, I don't know, mebbe..." Or they nod in agreement.

I think Praise was right, and it's time to cut this thread. Things are being said that should never be said, and Little Hawk in particular has had what he said grotesquely distorted.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:57 PM

You mean I get the LAST word? Little Hawk, I read the post in question and have mixed feelings. It seems to be a mixture of fact and opinion. but to expect the Jews to ever forgive the Nazi?

Never.

DougR

P.S. Guest EZ, sorry I dumped on you. You completely took me in. I thought you were really neoNazi!


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:30 PM

Aw gee, I can't resist the request to write a treatise on love. T'were better left for another day, methinks. Oh well. I did have a few thoughts left over from another line of thinking, and I might as well lay them here like a bunch of flowers at a road wreck.

First, to John and Greg. You guys came so close. I pray you persist in communicating across these great divides. I have been doing just that over a real wide chasm since.... early spring now, intentionally, with one person. And boy am I a different person. And the only thing that allowed a bridge that could thrread across that windy chasm? Love. Yup.

Now that person warn't no Nazi (you know who you are, dear!), but.... same thing. IF it come to me that God had put a Nazi, a neo-Nazi, a neo-a**hole of any sort into my path and sort of drew a pink, glowing line around them and said, "Susan, go to it, for Me...." ... I would. And the only weapons at hand that I know for sure would do any good at all would be Truth and Love.

And when someone is pretty messed up, and doing lots of bad things, they can't--funtionally-- hear truth. But they can see and feel love, especially love they have not earned at ALL. And thus a bridge can start.

And Truth can walk out on it. I am not saying it always does. I said, IT CAN.

Now, this week, today-- there is a certain someone who I cannot tell for sure, does he or does he not have that pink lighted glow around him? I can't see through my own filters at the moment. But I have received messages from time to time indicating I may actually have a role to play in that person's life, and good Lord, it's scary, but if it IS God's will for me to do it, He will keep me safe and no doubt there will be amazing blessings for me in the effort. I can already see the blessings from prior efforts. I would not give back a single one of them.

And it takes a lot more now to scare me. I am braver now with EVERYONE, for having made those efforts for a few scary people. Just look how my posts have changed...

So.... HOW and WHY do you love someone who is committed to evil....?

How is, you find one thing about them that is theoretically lovable, and you start there. You don't give an inch. You don't look for rose colored glasses to help you get that pinkish light. (I am making that color part up, it's just a metaphor, there is no pink light, sheesh!). Then you put that love into action. You help. You help however it loOks like you can, in the area where they are observably human and obviously struggling. You pray to see this all clearly of COURSE. And you keep looking at that lovable part and it begins to grow. They start showing you stuff they usually keep hidden. And after awhile, you begin to speak truth. Small truth. You find yourself doing it naturally, in context, within the relationship that has grown into being.

You show that you are solid and really there and really will handle what comes up. You take responsibility for your own upsets. When the person makes you nuts, you go find a good safe place to open up your heart and let out the hurt and ugliness, away from that evil person so they don't blame themsleves for your lack of perfect calm. And you keep going... and going.... and amazing things happen. Love given when not earned is so powerful. I know you all know how powerful love is, when it seems warranted. It is the unwarranted that unglues the evil and allows the intact human desire for goodness, still in that person, to breathe. And it wants to grow. And it does, often very fast.

WHY do it? Because we can. Not perfectly!!!! And not always, every time. But it can be done.

And why, again... Because it steals the power to harm, too.

And why, again? For me, because Jesus said to me that He wants it, and I am past doing things on orders (which also are there), to doing them for love of Him, and because I trust that what He wants is so good that is it bound to be better thqn what I thought I wanted. But see, He loved me first, unwarranted, so I have a head start on passing it along.

You look in your life, and see where you have been loved that way, and you will see how to pass it along, too. It doesn't have to be a Nazi. It can be anyone you think you can't forgive. I promise, if you start, you will never be the same. And neither will the world around you.

And why again... well, because we want to live in the world we envision. We can, when we work to make it so.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM

Whoo boy...

I've been too busy to look in on this one for some time...like 2 days.

Lonesome EJ - you are correct in your objection to that one section in my original post about Nazis forgiving Jews...I didn't express it very clearly. There was nothing for them to forgive the Jews FOR. Obviously. What I was thinking of was the Nazis back in the 30's and 40's. They genuinely believed that the Jews had done terrible things to Germany (and they were MISTAKEN IN THAT BELIEF!). I was thinking of those Nazis then, and that they should have forgiven the Jews at that time...instead of abusing them and killing them. Of course, the said Jews were entirely innocent, in any case, and in no need of anyone's forgiveness, but the Nazis didn't THINK that they were innocent.

I am absolutely NOT anti-semitic. I consider the Jewish race to be an utterly marvelous and gifted people who have made an immeasureable positive contribution to the world in more ways than can possibly be counted by you or me or anyone. My favourite musician of all time is a Jew. Numerous of my personal heroes are Jews. Jesus was a Jew, and it is his teachings that have provided me with a clear understanding of rightful human conduct. I am not anti-anybody. There is only one race on this planet anyway, AND IT'S CALLED THE HUMAN RACE. That includes you, me, and every German and every Jew that was ever born on this Earth. All else is illusion. We are all one family here.

I consider the Nazis to have been one of the most vicious and insane regimes ever to have rampaged across the Earth. I detest Nazi philosophy. I detest Fascist philosophy, and I am not too fond of Communists either.

I would never deny that the Holocaust occured, nor would I ever deny that it resulted in the death of 6 million Jews, and numerous other people. The Nazis were the worst thing that has ever happened to Germany, and they must never be permitted to rise again anywhere.

Is it possible to forgive such things as the Holocaust? Yes...but it's not easy. I don't know if I would be able to forgive it, had I experienced it directly. I just don't know.

I know that Jesus or Gandhi would have been able to, however. I don't expect everyone to understand that, or be capable of it, because I don't even know if I'm capable of it. If you can't imagine forgiving it, I understand just how you feel and I respect that.

But...If you can find the strength to forgive even the worst, you will reap a reward far greater than maybe you can imagine. You will heal what you thought could never be healed. Just try it and see. Don't take my word for it. Just try it and see.

And if you don't want to...okay. It's your life.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM

Hey Praise, we understand. It's just that you express your Christianity kindly and not aggressively, (actually like most of us try to). We realize you haven't ascended yet, but we'll wave when you do.

Actually to be a bit more serious, you are right about the word sin. As well as the word evil. And breaking the commandments is a bit more than being an a**. Trouble is that the same hypocrites that have hijacked John's beloved fundamentalism and given a lot of good people a very bad name, have hijacked the idea of sin, attached it to those whose only crime is not agreeing with them, and caused any number of people to pitch out the bath water, baby and all. David Gelernter wrote an interesting article on the idea of evil after Ted Kaczynski was arrested. While his viewpoint could certainly be called biased (David lost a hand to a unabomber package) he makes a point that true evil must not be tolerated. click here While I don't agree with all he has to say, I do think we need to stand up to the evil and make sure the one expressing it understands that it is not acceptable, and that it must stop. And Little Hawk, while most people can be tempted by wrong, I would like think that many of us have learned enough to not go along with genocide, though as I think about it the Hutus and Tutsis were able to stir up exactly that altogether too easily. But even there, there were those who refused to go along, as there were in Nazi Germany. One strong leader against wrong can do wonders for the cause of right.

John, please stick around.

I was given a bumper sticker the other day that I really like. 'Love the Bigot, Hate the bigotry'. Not easy to do but necessary for the healing of the world (as I contemplate just how far I am from this ideal).

Love to you all

Cami Su


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:02 AM

Carri Su - for sure, yes. There were quite a number of Germans who recognized the Nazi party for what they truly were (a racist bunch of fanatics, under an emotionally disturbed leadership). Some of them (like Marlene Dietrich) left Germany. Others stayed and resisted, and more than a few of them died for it. Some tried to assassinate Hitler, and they were tortured and executed. Those people were heroes, and I recognize them as such.

So, yes, I agree with your point.

We must not let ourselves be fooled and used by Nazis or extremists of whatever stripe.

I would further say that all aggressive warfare is a form of genocide, which is why I am a pacifist to all extents possible. The people I draw inspiration from, in that sense, are Gandhi, Jesus, Martin Luther King, and Joan Baez...among others.

I have no problem with defensive warfare...defending one's own land and people against invasion. That is entirely understandable. As for armed intervention on behalf of others, on foreign ground...that's a very tricky issue. You have to judge each situation on its own merits when it comes to that...


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Subject: To Little Hawk
From: GUEST,Gordon Gottleib
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM

To Little Hawk:

You claim that you are not anti-Semitic. However, in your postings, you have consistently incorporated the traditional language and ideas of anti-Semites, Nazis and neo-Nazis.

In your missive of 11:21 PM last night, you refer to the Jewish people as a "race." Referring to Jews as such is the language of racists. Most of the Jews of the world, including virtually all of those exterminated in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, are racially caucasian (white); they are of the same race as the Aryan Nazis. There are also racially black Jews; for example, the Falashas of Ethiopia. There are even small, continuing enclaves of Asian Jews in China.

In today's world, only anti-Semites refer to Jews as a "race." This is what allows American neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan to differentiate Jews from "white" people.

Your explanations of pre-war and war-period Naziism, that the Nazis "genuinely believed that the Jews had done terrible things to Germany," are taken directly from the revisionist histories now popular among anti-Semites who seek to justify the Holocaust.

If you use the langauge of the anti-Semites, you create the conditions for people to assume that you are one.

Sincerely,

Gordon Gottleib


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:23 AM

Gordon, you are correct. I should not have referred to the Jewish people as a "race". Quite right. I apologize for my lazy use of language in so doing, and thank you for drawing my attention to it. There are certainly Jews to be found in most, if not all, racial groups across this world.

I should therefore have referred to the Jewish people as a religious and cultural community, not a race.

Most of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust were indeed of the same so-called "Aryan" white European racial stock as were the Nazis. How ironical!

I realize that neo-Nazis use many of the same explanations (in part)that I have when describing the rise of Naziism in prewar Germany. It is a sad thing that people will often use portions and fragments of the truth to aid and abet what is overall a lie...such as the ludicrous neo-Nazi assertion that the Holocaust never happened....or that the persecution of Jews was somehow justified. If I were aware of the presence of any neo-Nazis (I don't think I've ever met one) I would avoid them like the plague.

I just hate to see bigotry going in either direction. I truly believe that all the Earth's people are of one spirit, and are therefore one people. I feel concerned for any victims of oppression or aggression anywhere.

For those whom I have inadvertently offended in my zeal to explain these concerns, I ask your patience and your understanding, and I regret if I have caused you any offence. It was not intended.

Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM

Gordon, you are correct. I should not have referred to the Jewish people as a "race". Quite right. I apologize for my lazy use of language in so doing, and thank you for drawing my attention to it. I won't make that mistake again. There are certainly Jews to be found in most, if not all, racial groups across this world.

I should therefore have referred to the Jewish people as a religious and cultural community, not a race.

Most of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust were indeed of the same so-called "Aryan" white European racial stock as were the Nazis. How ironical!

I realize that neo-Nazis use many of the same explanations (in part)that I have when describing the rise of Naziism in prewar Germany. It is a sad thing that people will often use portions and fragments of the truth to aid and abet what is overall a lie...such as the ludicrous neo-Nazi assertion that the Holocaust never happened....or that the persecution of the Jews was somehow justified. If I were aware of the presence of any neo-Nazis around me (I don't think I've ever met one) I would avoid them.

I just hate to see bigotry going in either direction. I truly believe that all the Earth's people are of one spirit, and are therefore one people. I feel concerned for any victims of oppression or aggression anywhere.

For those whom I have inadvertently offended in my zeal to explain these concerns, I ask your patience and your understanding, and I regret if I have caused you any offence. It was not intended.

Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: BDtheQB
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:58 AM

wow.. just a note to myself.. don't stay away four days if you wish to keep up.. I haven't been around for a couple of days and I may have missed a post or two.(I tried to go back and follow them all) The GUEST (?) who is trying to use various names all of whom seem to be names similar to those of "minions of Hitler" I applaud your ability to be anonymous. I have a few things to say and I will do so as succintly as possible at the risk of getting the "you see everything in black and white" label tossed at me.

In regards to "races": I looked at my photo essay book taken by the Apollo astronauts and couldn't see the boundaries on the globe or the different colors for the different countries.So where do you "draw the lines"? Perhaps it is only politics.

I will also point out that this site MUDCAT is about music and that if we want to think about the "monsters" that the Germans were we should all take a clue from that favorite song of mine. Christmas in the Trenches. After singing with someone, how can you shoot at them.. this is what boggles my mind.

Thirdly, and lastly for now, If anyone has ever read a book called The Oracle it was written by O'Connor in the late 1950's about a guy who was a radio commentator. (I think Rush may have read this and modeled himself after the hero). In any event the point I make is that nothing is new and hate was used against misunderstood or threatening peoples forever. Lions ate Christians in Rome the home of the Roman Catholic Church. Things change always and the winners write the history but change isn't a matter of centuries now but minutes and this machine that I am using now is one of the reasons that the changes will be even faster.

If we all just try to not kill or hurt each other I think that is the noblest thing a human can do.

(stepping off soap box)

Thanks..


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:42 PM

LH, don't apologise to that 'guest'. The way you used 'race,' as I understood it, was in the 'a group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographical distribution' sense. Just because some hyper-sensitive 'guest' (and probably the one who's been slandering you all week) doesn't understand what you said doesn't make what you said 'wrong.' I've understood that sense of race ever since I was a small boy. 'Guest Gordon' hasn't, probably because he's got the brain of a goat. Which is sad, because I've got the brain of a rabbit, and *I* got it...

This 'guest' is the REAL racist; race, and I mean the division of people into Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, etc, is a false concept. In his belief in such lies, the 'guest' has admitted that HE is a racist.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this: Rot in Hell, 'Guest Gordon'. And to you, LH, your entries on this subject have been wonderful. Don't let inbred dickweeds like 'Gordon' drag you down. >:)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:35 PM

Otto Schindler, as well as being a lecher and a crook, was a paid up member of the Nazi party and on very good terms with other Nazis up to their eyeballs in innocent blood.

And he saved a lot of people from the gas chambers, and risked his life to do so.

You couldn't have told him apart from the other Nazis he rubbed along with. Making judgements about people isn't easy, and you can be surprised how people turn out.

That's an encouraging thought. Someone like Schindler can turn around, even while still being what most people would reasonably consider a pretty dodgy kind of character. (In fact if he hadn't been, he'd never have been able to carry it off.)>P>

But it's also a chilling thought, because it goes the other way. Seemingly upright loving fathers who were the soul of honesty can turn into agents of mass murder, in Germany, in Russia, in Yugoslavia - and a lot nearer to where most of us live. The people who prospered from the slave trade are revered people in our history, on both sides of the Atlantic. Priests of my own religion who tortured and burnt living people.

None of us know that if we were pitched into a different time and place we wouldn't be capable of doing the most horrible things to innocent victims. The evidence from history is that very few of us would in fact resist. Our job is to do whatever we can to increase the likelihood that we would be ready to do so.


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:34 PM

"None of us know that if we were pitched into a different time and place we wouldn't be capable of doing the most horrible things to innocent victims. The evidence from history is that very few of us would in fact resist.Our job is to do whatever we can to increase the likelihood that we would be ready to do so."

May I use this phrase in a song? I'm serious. I think it is fabulous!....Please?MoH?...Please?MoH? It is quite the soundly wisdom! ttr


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM

It's yours, Thomas!


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:51 AM

There is still no substitute for really getting to know another human being.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:36 AM

Oh I dunno Praise........I like my Weimaraner and cockatiels are pretty satisfying.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM

*G*


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