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The term 'folk Nazi'

GUEST 17 Feb 05 - 09:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM
Jim Tailor 16 Feb 05 - 12:06 PM
CamiSu 15 Sep 00 - 01:13 AM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 00 - 02:37 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 01:58 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 00 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Greg F.(not at home) 14 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,John Bauman 14 Sep 00 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Greg F.(not at home) 14 Sep 00 - 07:47 AM
GeorgeH 14 Sep 00 - 06:31 AM
Crazy Eddie 14 Sep 00 - 05:56 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 14 Sep 00 - 04:32 AM
Lena 14 Sep 00 - 04:06 AM
Lena 14 Sep 00 - 02:31 AM
Lena 14 Sep 00 - 02:05 AM
katlaughing 13 Sep 00 - 11:30 PM
CamiSu 13 Sep 00 - 10:31 PM
Mike Regenstreif 13 Sep 00 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 13 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM
bflat 13 Sep 00 - 09:47 PM
bbelle 13 Sep 00 - 09:12 PM
Greg F. 13 Sep 00 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,Suzette 13 Sep 00 - 08:41 PM
wysiwyg 13 Sep 00 - 08:31 PM
mousethief 13 Sep 00 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Mongo 13 Sep 00 - 06:32 PM
DougR 13 Sep 00 - 06:28 PM
mousethief 13 Sep 00 - 05:41 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 13 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM
Greg F. 13 Sep 00 - 05:35 PM
Callie 13 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Sep 00 - 04:03 PM
DougR 13 Sep 00 - 03:37 PM
Jim the Bart 13 Sep 00 - 02:45 PM
Lonesome EJ 13 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Thread Detective 13 Sep 00 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 13 Sep 00 - 01:50 PM
mousethief 13 Sep 00 - 01:43 PM
DougR 13 Sep 00 - 01:07 PM
Lonesome EJ 13 Sep 00 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,John Bauman 13 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM
Jeri 13 Sep 00 - 10:11 AM
CamiSu 13 Sep 00 - 09:50 AM
GeorgeH 13 Sep 00 - 08:37 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 13 Sep 00 - 03:16 AM
Lonesome EJ 13 Sep 00 - 02:19 AM
Ebbie 13 Sep 00 - 02:06 AM
DougR 13 Sep 00 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,marty D 12 Sep 00 - 11:48 PM
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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:25 AM

I have just read all through this thread, most of which is from 5 years ago and some fascinating stuff there is too. Several people have thanked the original poster for raising the issue as it is important that we never forget just what the nazis did.

It was, however those who use the term folk-nazis who kept the issue alive.   It would seem to me that there are two main lines of complaint in this topic, which are almost opposites and which should be separated:

1) It is unfair to compare people whose attitude to music you dislike to the perpetrators of an obscene horror.

2) Using the term nazi with reference to anyone but the originals belittles the suffering of victims of the third reich.

With regard to the first; many, if not most, pejoratives are used with little or no regard to their literal meanings. When I refer to Pinochet as a murdering bastard I have no knowledge of his parentage and indeed would not dream of suggesting that having unmarried parents is something to beat a child with.

Context is all. If you understand what people complaining about folk nazis are talking about, whether you agree or not, then the term works as a pejorative. It does not mean they think you are likely to murder 6 million Jews and it is bogus to pretend that this is what you thought. It means they really don't like what you do and misguided as they may be there is nothing to say that they should.

With regard to the second point I think the debate is much more difficult. I understand that any reference to or reminder of the horrors the Nazis brought about is painful, more painful than I as a child of the 50's can understand. I am not sure,though, that this is a pain we should avoid; that way we forget. Surely it is better to use the term nazis as a pejorative and be told off for a lack of gravity then reminded what the reality was than to let the term slip from our conciousness. The bigger danger is that we avoid uncomfortable issues and pretend that everything is nice in our world. It is better that subjects are raised at every level of discussion and awareness than that they are brushed under the carpet.

The nazis convinced millions of ordinary people all across Europe that their economic interests justified the slaughter of less worthy races or groups of people. This was not wrong because they lost the war, it was just wrong. And it does not become right when the slaughter is being carried out in the name of democracy by countries so powerful there is no chance they will be defeated.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM

Someone said Mel brooks had denounced Springtime for Hitler in The Producers. I wonder if this is still the case now that The Producers is the hottest ticket in London.

There wouldn't actually be all that much to laugh about if every joke were to be examined rigorously for a good taste content.

I think its because we all feel so strongly about folk music that we fight our corner a bit too ruthlessly occasionally and reach for the nastiest phrase we can to pigeonhole our detractors and diminishers.

God, or whoever forgive us all for our bouts of nastiness, testiness and middle aged narrowing of the mind.

Amen

Big Al


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:06 PM

Well, since some folks can't raise the level of their discussion past the "nazi" accusation, I thought it might be interesting to resurrect this'n.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 01:13 AM

Not just Afghanistan. Rwanda, Somalia, Indonesia, East Timor. Not only does it not stop, it barely slows down... And most of us sit in our safe and comfortable homes barely able to understand the horrors. I certainly know MY understanding is intellectual and sympathetic, not based on experience. But that doesn't mean we can't work for peace and understanding where we are.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:37 PM

Some of you have put forth so much effort to get through to one another, but have not yet quite done so... I hope you will keep reaching for one another. Please, keep trying. It will have been worth it.

~Susan~

CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSION


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:58 PM

Eddie, I think you're crazy! (Just kidding of course but couldn't resist).

Of course you are right. Those of us in the U. S. should keep in mind that Mudcatters live in many countries all over the world with many different political systems. It must be confusing at times when we (in the U.S.) refer to our political parties or Conservatives and Liberals in our posts. Can't offer a solution to the problem though, unless we were to specify our home country when we are discussing such subjects.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:37 PM

Thomas the Rhymer, good posting. You said, Authorities came to take fathers, mothers and children... at gunpoint, to be murdered. The whole social interaction of that time was one of fear piled on fear piled on still more fear. Hunters and hunted. No controls to turn off. Systematic murder.

While your posting is in the past tense, because of the history you referred to, I would remind everyone that that is exactly what is happening in Afghanistan right now and still the world isn't doing much to stop it.

I just received an update from RAWA, Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan, which tells of increased suicides of women because of their inability to cope with the horrid atrocities they suffer.

Thank you,

kat


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Greg F.(not at home)
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM

John-

No offense intended. Don't want to take up too much space with this here, but I'm not about to waste my time to go listen to Rush's current spew so I can take notes & provide you with specifics- I've better things to do & don't know it would change minds if I could cite chapter and verse.

Suggestion: re-listen to your buddy with some of the points raised in this thread in mind & then tell me what YOU think.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:32 AM

Greg F,

If you were to assume me to be open-minded enough to learn or change my mind (or have valid reasons for believing your assertions to be wrong) you might have done the polite thing and answered my not impolite question. The questions I asked were not inflamatory. The charge of bigotry is.

Sincerely,

John


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Greg F.(not at home)
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:47 AM

"In what way(s) have you found R Limbaugh to be bigotted? How have you found him to be misogynist?"

John, if you find it necessary to pose these questions and they are not an attempt at humor on your part, there's really no point in my responding.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GeorgeH
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:31 AM

Moonchild: thanks for that account . . poweful, and a reminder of why it's worth arguing over this sort of thing.

Some while ago I posted Andy Cronshaw's only published song - "A smiling shore" - it's worth checking out, in this context.

G.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:56 AM

Lonesome EJ, you say <<,I visualize the political spectrum as a line extending left to right through Communist,Socialist,Radical,Liberal,Democrat,Moderate,Republican,Conservative,Reactionary,Fascist,Nazi.>>

So what do you call an Australian, who thinks that Australia should have its own head of state, rather than the British Monarch,(= republican), that Australia should have a democratically elected government (=democrat)and who would vote for a government with socialist policies ( = socialist)?
What about an Englishman who believes in the abolotion of the monarchy (=republican)and is a firm believer in Marxist/ Leninism (=communist).

Or indeed the stated position of Sinn feinn, which is in favour of a socialist united Ireland (= republican socialism)

Your model above may work if the words "Democrat" & "Republican" are shorn of there original meaning, and used only as names for U.S. political parties, but it is just a bit confusing for people outside the U.S. Regards, Eddie


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:32 AM

I have thought long and hard on this one.

I'm not sure that the issue is hatred itself. But I can't decipher the the meaning of hatred from the meaning of murder. There it is, the word "murder". If someone comes into a blood feud, what does reason do for the victims/prepetrators? Murder is absolutely intollerable under any circumstance. PERIOD. Brainwashed people who kill... are still murderers. Belfast. Blood feuds. South Africa. Bosnia. Hitler's Nazi MURDERing machine.

Fear. Fear of losing a job, of starving. Fear of losing your own family, and watching them starve, and feeling responsible for it. Does anyone remember what the powers of the world did to Germany after the first world war? The war that many, many thousands of men died ON THE WAY TO! We now call it the flu. More American men died GOING to WW1 than died IN BATTLE. After the war, Germans suffered vile poverty. Arian, Jewish, Gypsy alike. Poverty like none of us has ever known in our lives. Survival.

The notion of "survival of the fittest" is fabricated nonsence. It was invented in order to justify status quo inequalities. It has been used ever since to salve the consciences of the meanest, and to pacify the "kinder gentler" peoples of the world. If we decide to live like dogs, then it will be our lot. But human beings were never meant to live with such a maxim, we are capable of intense conscious love, and indeed are responsible to higher powers.

People still walk this earth who were witnesses to systematic state sanctioned premeditated murder. Mass murder. Millions of people just like you and me. Families. Extended families. People had to lie to authorities, sneak, steal, and stuff emotions... to stay alive. Authorities came to take fathers, mothers and children... at gunpoint, to be murdered. The whole social interaction of that time was one of fear piled on fear piled on still more fear. Hunters and hunted. No controls to turn off. Systematic murder.

And why? Who could answer then, or now. The breakdown of society was complete, and morality had no place in the activities of nazi zealots. Fearing humiliation most of all, Blame. Racial hatred. The renouncing of Intelligence.

My point. The four horsemen of the appocolypse still ride. We are hanging from the tinniest of threads here on our little globe. Sustaining ourselves from the thinnest layer of topsoil and reason. If we do not pay strict attention to the fragile nature of human democracy, and human peace, the past is inevitable. Brainwashing is happening now. Everyday. When we bicker and fight over news stories, we forget that the truth is hidden by false pride. Bigotry is misinformed.

The Jewish People deserve an unending appology.

I think Praise has her finger on the pulse of human improvement. Please love! ttr


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lena
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 04:06 AM

Joe found me the lyrics I mentioned

Se questo è un uomo

Voi che vivete sicuri
Nelle vostre tiepide case,
Voi che trovate tornando a casa
Il cibo caldo e visi amici:
Considerate se questo è un uomo
Che lavora nel fango
Che non conosce pace
Che lotta per mezzo pane
Che muore per un sì o per un no.
Considerate se questa è una donna,
Senza capelli e senza nome
Vuoti gli occhi e freddo il grembo
Come una rana d’inverno
Meditate che questo è stato:
Vi comando queste parole.
Scolpitele nel vostro cuore
Stando in casa andando per via,
Coricandovi , alzandovi
Ripetete ai vostri figli.
O vi si sfaccia la casa,
La malattia vi impedisca,
I vostri nati torcano il viso da voi.

[Primo Levi, da Se questo è un uomo]


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lena
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:31 AM

I forgot who that posting was from,but:there is no need to go as far as Abyssinia to track italian racisim.Personally,I just had to step out of my doorstep in my native town.African people are caught in the night and beaten from neo-fascist groups,chinese people have fights with shopkeepers in the streets,southern accent is something to be ashamed of(quite ridicoulous,given that southern Italy has such an amazing cultural-human heritage....and I'm glad I had a chance to get in touch with it,despite the racist shit my central Italy city is filled of),ALL OF THIS DESPITE the fact that all children are educated to abhor the Holocaust.And of course it's fair that they are taught to know that that is the worst possible crime(there is an amazing poem fron an italian/jewish writer,which describes people in a concentration camp,repeating:is this a man?Is this a woman?!Well,meditate that this has happened,and tell to everyone,think about it,or may your children turn away from you,may you...I don't remember the various curses,but if any italian Mudcatter here can help me finding the words of Levi's"Se questo e' un uomo",ve ne sarei ben grata),but the children are not able to confront theirselves with the thing:they think is a thing from the past.they think it's horrible,but they don't connect to the horrible things they say to people they don't tolerate.They may cry reading Anna Frank's diary but they'll tell to their coloured schoolmate"you're black because you fell in the shit"(as they used to say to a kid I knew years ago...Now he's grown up and he's a stunning beautiful young man,and none would dare saying that again...) without feeling wrong about it.That's what I was meaning in my first post.There is a danger that is called intolerance in it's in us everyday,and all we can do against it is to learn from past horrors,not to relegate,isolate those horrors to merely historical/personal memory.It scares me to think'it could have happened to me'when I think about jews in a concentration camp...but it scares me beyond any limit the fact that,if I was born german,raised in aa average family,brainwashed from Hitler...well,I could have even ended on the other side,like thousands of many did in that crowd madness.Because they were human beings as well,and they thought they were right.Now,if I put things this way I can 1)despise myself as a human being because I'm accountable to go against another human being; 2)or I can learn from it,and never stop watching out from intolerance inside myself.End of the speech.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lena
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:05 AM

Thread detective;fake?!I was quite true and faithful to my usual predictable 'let's-apply-anthropology-to-everuthing form-history-to-toilet-paper'line.And besides,quite funny that someone bothers reading my postings so carefully.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:30 PM

With the proliferation of neo-nazism, particularly on the Web, "nazi" is just too synonymous with the worst kinds of violence and hatred to be used in any way as humour or a designation of someone who doesn't agree with one concerning folk music or most other things.

I had to turn it off, because it sickened me so, but last night MSNBC had a program called "Web of Hate." It went into specific cases of people who've tapped into the white supremacist movements which are on the Internet.

One young man, who grew up privileged, had had a Jewish and, then, African American roommate in college, thenconnected with the white supremacists and went on a beserk killing spree in Illinois and Indiana last year, killing 2, a Jew and and African American, and wounding many others, before he killed himself. Those people have murdered and preached hatred of Jews, homosexuals and every other minority. They revel in calling themselves neo-nazis.

So, it is not just about something that happened 50 years ago, although that should be enough; it is also about what is happening right now. Why on earth would any of us want to give them credence by adopting that term to refer to any of the rest of us, unless, of course, as someone noted, we are talking about real nazis and the folk music they are into?

Mike, thanks, again, for starting this discussion. I have friends who are Holocaust survivors and it would never be right to cheapen what they've gone through by casual use of such a word.

Thanks, Jenny, for telling us about your stepmom and stepgrandma.

kathopingGrouchowillcomeback


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:31 PM

Oh Jenny,

You and your step-grandmother were just who I was thinking of when I made my comment about stones in the road. The words we put out here, and ESPECIALLY here where we don't know who is there to hear, can and usually will HURT someone. And these words in particular will have the power to hurt unto the seventh generation. And if we forget, those who continue to hold these abhorrent ideas are out there, just waiting, to remind us again.

When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for the Gypsies, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Gypsy.

When they came for the homosexuals, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Homosexual.

When they came for the Christians, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Christian.

When they came for me, there was no one left to speak.

I know this isn't exactly the quote, but it gets the idea across. Right now in Vermont they are coming for the homosexuals, or trying to.

Jenny, your step grandmother is like so many who were ordinary people who became heroes because it had to be done. God bless her and all like her and may we do the same when we have to.

Cami Su

p.s. My mom's husband (sorry, he's too young to be my stepdad, but he's still the best thing that ever happened to Mom) loved it when my youngest gave me a menorah he made for Christmas!


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:19 PM

Moonchild,

Thank you so much for your post. One of the reasons that I so object to the cheapening of the word "Nazi" is that it cheapens the suffering and the heroic bravery of people like your step-grandmother.

Mike Regenstreif


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM

Greg F,

In what way(s) have you found R Limbaugh to be bigotted? How have you found him to be misogynist? To which fraternity did he pledge?

Bartholemew,

Very nice post. I agree with the initial premise of this post. What I've tried so poorly to convey, and the reason I felt the pull to respond to the thread, is that I have found myself like GUEST Steve Beisser(sp) before me, accused falsely of an extreme position. It seems as though the false accusation/use of the word N*** cannot be proven/stated and left alone without someone then advancing the notion that the things I believe in ARE n***-like. I know I should not be so thin skinned.

You folks are a great, eye-opening, good-humoured bunch and I've enjoyed my visits to your forum very much.

Thanks for allowing me to hang out with you. Cheers!

John


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: bflat
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:47 PM

Moonchild/Jenny

What an incredible story of personal courage. I thank you for offering this heartfelt example and I agree with yourbflat own sentiment. Warm regards to your step-grandmother.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: bbelle
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:12 PM

I have followed this thread for three days and have been reduced to tears several times. I don't care who is who or who is disguising as whom because the words have been laid down. Just for the record, I am a Jew and I am real.

I only have to look into the eyes of my step-grandmother to see the horror and fear in her eyes when she lapses into Polish and starts talking about the "nazis." She is a very brave woman, who was part of the Polish resistance. She was pregnant with my stepmother and every night she worked tirelessly leading Jews out of Poland to safety. She was captured and spent six years in the camps and gave birth to my stepmother in the camps.

You, who think that the word "nazi" should no longer have an impact, should walk in her shoes, and relive the horrors she endured. IN ORDER THAT JEWS WOULD REACH SAFETY. She relives that horror every day of her life. She is 91 years old and will die reliving those horrors.

So, before you use terms that signify a holocaust, wherever, stop and think, those of you who have the ability.

And to those of you who do not have that ability, do not waste your energy directing anti-semitic rhetoric or flaming white sheets at me. You will not exist in my eyes.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:07 PM

Just call 'em as I see 'em, Doug! ;-)

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Suzette
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 08:41 PM

Callie, maybe you and Lena should talk to Fedele about fakery.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 08:31 PM

Mongo, I hope you will stick around this place.

~S~


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:32 PM

I'm sorry. I have a degree in Philosophy (well, two actually) and every now and then that part of my brain leaps up from its long slumber, puts a choke hold on the reality sector, and takes over the fingers. This is why my fingers are far safer on a fretboard than on a keyboard. Or rather the people around me are far safer when my fingers -- AAAK! It's doing it again!

Then again I've written some fun songs in the philosophical vein, including "Existential Sheep" and "Let's Get Existential" which maybe I'll torture y'all with at a HearMe. If I can fix that sound card on my blasted computer.

Soundless in Seattle,
O..O
=o=
clickme


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Mongo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:32 PM

Damn, all you people making too much sense around here.

I'm just miffed nobody got pissed off at "Black and Tanshirts"...

sheesh, tough crowd... :)


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:28 PM

Mousethief: you lost me somewhere among the Xs and the Os. I really like your website!

GregF: You're a pretty tough guy! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:41 PM

DougR:

But when somebody says, "people ought not to do X" what could they possibly be doing except expressing an opinion? Unless you know of some source of objective, universally-agreed-upon "oughts"?

If on the other hand someone says, "my religion says people ought not to do X" or "Time Magazine had an article recently that said when people do X, Y happens" then they are obviously passing along a fact (or falsehood) about something, which one could conceivably go and check out against the source. (Unless their religion is so small there's no way of figuring out what it officially believes, of course.)

If someone says, "In 1520, Joe X killed Bob Y" then you can go and check it out. It's a matter of historical fact. But "oughts" are not a matter of historical fact, and there is no place we can go (that we all agree upon) to check out what one ought and what one ought not.

Thus it seems obvious to me (call me a weirdo) that when someone posts something in the form of "Doing X is wrong" that they are posting their opinion, and adding "IMO" is redundant (if harmless).

That said, people who say "People ought not to do X" but really MEAN to say, "according to the Bible/Koran/Bhagavat Gita/Rede/Whatever, people ought not to do X" should probably be kind enough to spell it out for us.

But of course they don't, so maybe that's your point? I'm willing to be enlightened. :)

O..O
=o=
clickme


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM

Incediary responces.

I think that Websters would note that writers (sometimes good ones), often 'spice' up their work with words that inflame and hook emotions. It is everywhere, and tall are the tales we tell. The terms seem to represent a board and cynical approach to a relatively uneventful social standard of interaction.

As a melodramatic animal, we seem to need anxiety, and if none is suplied by nature, we more or less go out of our way to invoke it.

Silly folk...


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:35 PM

I find it difficult to credit that anyone could consider the bigoted, misogynist, sophomoric ranting of a spoiled frat-boy upon subjects he clearly knows nothing about to be a form of "entertainment"-- Rush's garbage-spewing is much darker and more dangerous than that, particularly if it encourages people to behave as he does. Though, I suppose, lynching, too, is a form of "entertainment".

At least Rush's motives are obvious- he's a media whore who will say anything for money. The motives of the 'Rush-apologists' are less clear.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Callie
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM

Guest Detective: get a life.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 04:03 PM

Maybe this is thread drift, but it's started already. Lining up political philosophies along a one-dimensional spectrum as Lonesome EJ quotes it seems to distort the way in which they relate to each other and differ from each other.

To me it makes more sense to see them as in two dimensions. There's a left to right dimension based around issues like economic structures, common ownership, private property, equality, stuff like that. And at right angles to it there's a dimension about authority and freedom.

That gets you away from absurdities such as people saying "Hitler was a vegetarian, who disapproved of private citizens having guns, so vegetarians who in favour of gun control are like Nazis."

Looked at that way it's fairly clear that Nazism is more or less in the middle of the left/right dimension, but way off the chart on authoritarianism.

Actually to really cover the territory you'd ned at least one more dimension for things like green issues, for example.

And you find folk music in all the nooks and crannies of the multiverse, including some really unpleasant ones. I think it's better to save the term "folk nazis" for the real nazis around who are into folk music of some kind. And they really do exist. Not too many on the Mudcat so far, and pray God it stays that way. But at times I get the feeling they are out there in the dark circling and ready to pick off stragglers.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:37 PM

Well, mousethief, I guess I'm one of those irksome people. I don't agree that "everbody" assumes when a person makes a statement (unless it is based on proveable fact) that he/she is only expressing an opinion.

And another thing, I wouldn't presume to speak for everybody. But then, I'm not perfect. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:45 PM

As so often happens, words are being thrown around rather loosely in this thread. IMNSHO, not having clear definitions or references on which to base your comments reduces the value of the discussion and raises the possibility of offending individuals without enlightening the issues at hand. And there are some important issues being explored here.

On the primary issue - the acceptability of the term "folk-nazi" - let me weigh in on the "nay" side. I know Seinfeld used "nazi" as a suffix for humorous purposes, but that doesn't make it funny or diminish the power of the word. Nazi, refers specifically to members of the third reich and supporters of Adolf Hitler's social ideas. Considering the recent rise of Neo-Nazi movements and the renewed interest in this ideology, I think underestimating it's impact, through this kind of use, is a bit premature.

"Nazi" is still a dangerous, hurtful and incendiary term. Although we don't all agree on the meaning of the words "folk music", or the level of folk purity that we should aspire to or try to maintain, we have to agree to disagree with a degree of civility. I, personally, think calling someone a "nazi" crosses the line. On one level, the term "nazi" represents the willingness to commit genocide in support of a perceived need to enforce purity in thought. Is this what we're all about here? I don't think so. And I know that that was not the spirit in which it has come to be used in our culture (and was used in this forum). But facile labeling reduces the level of our dialogue. It is "ad-speak" that serves the sound-bite mentality. We don't need it here. And that is just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM

John,obviously it's a fairly gross over-simplification of the spectrum of political position,but is useful for a basic understanding. It was evolved,I believe,in the Thirties,when both fascism and communism were at their peaks.The distinction between fascism,as totalitarian rule which observed and emphasized private property and private business rights (as mousethief indicated),and communism,as "dictatorship of the proletariat",where those rights were suppressed,was more clearly distinguished. Hitler,in fact,saw himself as a champion of capitalism and Communism as the world's greatest evil.

Accepting the scale at face value,one can accuse a political opponent of socialism,as Limbaugh frequently does,if he is interested in a national health care system,even though the balance of his views may fall to moderate or even right-leaning philosophy.The farther towards each end of the spectrum a person falls,the more he will paint his opponent as an extremist,in my experience.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Thread Detective
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:53 PM

I read all the Lena and Groucho Marxist threads and I think they are both fakes! We have been had again mudcatters!


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for the answer LonesomeEJ. That's the "spectrum" I've always heard referred to. I'm just not sure I can see it as anything more than a rhetorical sledgehammer used to tie one's opponent to a villain and then beat him over the head. If I can call a liberal a communist, or he can call me a fascist, the rest of the arguement need not be that strong :=). It quite literally falls apart in two ways; Objectively, fascism is practically speaking, merely a version of communism, thereby, I suppose, making the "spectrum" more akin to Toqueville's cycle than a straight line. Libertarianism cannot be fit into the spectrum.

John


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:43 PM

Since when does fascism involve state-owned means of support? You need to check your history. Private firms made a lot of money under Hitler. Hitler did NOT nationalize industry.

Every opinion I express always has "IMO" implicitly tacked on. This is true of everybody. People who don't realize this irk me.

People who set out to purposely offend and upset others are jerks and knee-biters. End of story.

On Limbaugh: I think it's interesting that whenever someone calls somebody on their use of language, or their hatemongering, the defense is always "I have freedom of speech!" No schmidt, sherlock. Now use it responsibly. We also have the freedom of speech to say, "you're lying" or "you're an a##hole for being nasty and mean-spirited." And we will. And do.

Liberals don't have shows like Limbaugh's exactly BECAUSE they are in the majority. Limbaugh generates his audience by playing on their "oh poor me" victim-status as a picked-upon minority. It's that White Guy Rage thing.

Me, I'm just thankful I'm so perfect. (grin)

O..O
=o=
clickme


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:07 PM

Lonesome EJ: Good reply.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:35 PM

John,I visualize the political spectrum as a line extending left to right through Communist,Socialist,Radical,Liberal,Democrat,Moderate,Republican,Conservative,Reactionary,Fascist,Nazi.This is not a political model invented by me,but has been in use for years in political science.For all intents and purposes,individual freedom evaporates at both ends (extreme right and left),and becomes totalitarianism.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM

Sorry to beat a dead horse but Fascism, Socialism, and Communism are all political/economic philosophies that involve state-owned means of production. How does that ever put conservatism on the same end of the spectrum as fascism?

John


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:11 AM

GUEST at dinner table with friends:
Friend "GUEST, Please pass the butter."
GUEST: "DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, YOU %#*& - YOU'RE NOT MY MOTHER."
(Sorry - either that post by the cookie-tossing guest was a poor excuse for a troll, a severe knee-jerk response to perceived authority, or completely clueless...possibly all three. In any case, it was funny.)

It seems most people here either understand or are trying to understand. There will always be those who think they must always excercise their rights to do or say something, despite knowing they'll hurt people. They think they have enough reason to do this. They have a right to ignore people's feelings, call people names, and be generally mean. I have a right to think they're losers. Believe me, I'll exercise THAT right.

Lena, your post was very eloquent. "We have met the enemy, and they are us." (Who said that? Walt Kelly?) No one wants to believe they're capable of the sort of things the supporters of the Nazis condoned and the Nazis themselves did. No one wants to look in a mirror and see the sort of person who's capable of treating their fellow humans like meat. Some look into mirrors, and keep a watchful eye for signs of the enemy. Some condemn all mirrors as evil.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:50 AM

I caught my son throwing rocks into the road the other day. No cars were coming, and he wasn't throwing hard enough to hit the chickens on the other side. BUT if two cars came along one of his stones could be picked up by the first and slung so as to hit the second's windshield. So, too, our words can hit targets we don't mean to or even know about. Mike alerted us to this possibility. Groucho is not dictating what we say, he is simply saying "ouch" and it is up to all of us to THINK about what we say, and decide if we're going to pitch those stones into the road or not.

Yes, some people take offense way too easily. And sometimes we make jokes to try to deal with the horror of something. The trouble there is that if that is all we do then we don't actually deal with the problem. We absolutely have to have a sense of humor to survive in this world. But humor does not mean insensitivity. Consider 'Fiddler on the Roof', there is plenty of humor, and plenty to cause one to think and to cry, but nothing that makes the watcher feel denigrated.

Praise, I truly appreciated your story. I think that we all need to learn to feel and express that kind of JOY and LIFE as a matter of course. I sort of think that is what God wants us to do.

I do hope Groucho won't go away. This forum is a wonderful opportunity to learn, and whenever even one of us leaves many opportunities tolearn AND teach are lost...

Cami Su


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 08:37 AM

Mike R: Thanks for all the good sense, as ever . .

As for Grab - he said he wouldn't use "Nazi" as an epithet ('cause he could always do better) - then proceeded TO use it in his last line. So he's either a bird of little brain or a deliberate troll (my money's on the latter).

And - LonesomeEJ - you miss the point on "reserving" words; Nazi DOES refer to Hitler's hoardes . . what we're saying is we shouldn't loose sight of that and allow its meaning to be diluted.

Also - like others here - I take it as self-evident that any view I express, unless I cite evidence to support it, is seen by everyone as "IMO".

G.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:16 AM

Very interesting thread. Passionate,... indeed! I will be short. I saw a bumpersticker the other day that said "If you don't know Rush Limbaugh, You don't know sh*t". Now I have to tell you, I laughed then, as I am laughing now. His popularity is ample testimony for the distracted state of the contemporary American mind. Can you imagine Rush having a straight ahead debate with Ralph Nader one on one? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ttr


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:19 AM

Doug,your opinion (as usual) is a very logical one. I alluded to Rush Limbaugh's use of the femi-nazi term saying that it's a common method of propaganda to use a term against your enemies that is likely to be used against you. It's also a common tactic in debate and advertising. Those on the Right are generally the most vulnerable to the Fascist or Nazi appellation,as those on the left are often labeled Communist or Socialist.Therefore it is very crafty of Limbaugh to hijack the nazi term.I don't think Rush is a Nazi,nor do I think he's a Fascist. I would put him just a hair to the left of Reactionary.He makes a lot of common-sense statements interspersed with some very flakey observations (Tourette's Syndrome is a politically correct disease),enjoys noting an obvious political trend,predicting its outcome,and then patting himself on the back for it,and has a remarkable propensity for personal vendetta against those he despises politically,while remaining blind to any error by those he supports.Other than that,he's great.

Why are there no Liberal counterparts to Limbaugh?Mainly because we Democrats can rarely agree long enough or on a wide enough collection of issues to say "ditto."We are a motley crew indeed.In fact,you Republicans should be ashamed if you let a disreputable bunch like us back in the WhiteHouse for another four years.I always thought the best thing the Democratic Party could do would be to get some Republicans to run it.Ever been to a Democratic Convention?Sorry,of course you haven't. But sheesh,what a disorganized mess.Who was it said "I am currently not a member of any organized political party - I'm a Democrat"...he had it right.


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:06 AM

I guess the part of all this that I don't understand is why we couldn't respond with something to the effect that "I'm not Jewish but it is a misery to me to know that nations and individuals do that kind of thing to each other so I can understand that you must feel much more than that. I'm sorry to have added to your pain. Thanks for making me aware of it."

In other words, why do we feel it necessary to try to defend an, at the least, unfortunate phrase? Surely we can do without the phrase?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:43 AM

Refering to anyone as "anything" Nazi, is IMO insulting and should not be done. Note that I said, IMO. This explanatory statement is missing from many messages posted on this Thread (IMO).

I take offense at Banjo Johnny's statement about Republicans. I don't question his right to state his belief, and since the majority of those folks posting to this thread probably agree with him, I'm probably the only one who does feel offended, but I can't, in good concience, allow him to make such a statement unchallenged. It's as offensive to me, as if he had called me an American Nazi.

And how in the heck did Rush Limbaugh get into this conversation anyway? Yes, he refers to those in the feminist movement as feminazis or something to that effect, but in America, he has a right to do that. It is a guaranteed right. Those who disagree have the same right to disagree with him. I'm not a regular listener of the Limbaugh show, but I have heard several. The descriptions of his broadcast that I have read on this thread from folks who have heard him a few times don't jibe with the broadcasts I have heard. He is an entertainer! He holds no political office, cannot influence political policy, can do nothing other than broadcast his beliefs. Should he have a right to do that? Damn right! Just as much right as any Liberal commentator would have to spout his/her opinions on the airwaves.

The puzzeling thing to me is, why isn't there a Liberal counterpart to Limbaug? Supposedly, Limbaugh has the largest radio audience of any talk radio show in radioland.

If Liberalism is as popular as its proponents believe it to be, why isn't there an audience "out there" large enough to sustain such a radio show?

Is it because we are a nation of naziradiolisteners?

There is a lot of Liberal talent to choose from. Mario Cuomo, Hillery Clinton (once she is no longer running for office), Bill Clinton, once his is out of office, maybe even Al Gore!

So the minority wing of the Mudcat is heard from. Have at me, my friends! :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:48 PM

Mike R. I agree. Why must people always find a TERM that lumps others with probably quite disparate views into one 'group'? To call someone a folk Nazi when nobody can even agree on what 'folk' is, is ridiculous. The Producers was a very funny film though. Satire can be a powerful weapon.

M


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