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What's RISE UP SINGING?

DigiTrad:
NOT IN THE BOOK


Related threads:
Rise Up Mudcat!, RUS Volume 3 (online) (32)
Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' (158)
homage to Rise Up Singing (374)
Mudcat Up Singing - a perfect songbook (34)
Lyr Req: Not in the Book (20)
blue books revisited (Rise Up Singing) (63)
Cheapest copies of RUS? (7)
RISE UP SINGING II - Current Status??? (14) (closed)
Revised RUS due next fall (9)
Help: Rise Up Singing II (10) (closed)
9/11 NYC Help--Rise Up Singing (8)
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In defense of RUS (4)


GUEST,Fedele (not a guest - I'm just in a library) 25 Jul 00 - 08:02 AM
Easy Rider 25 Jul 00 - 08:32 AM
canoer 25 Jul 00 - 09:20 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 25 Jul 00 - 09:24 AM
Midchuck 25 Jul 00 - 09:42 AM
Mbo 25 Jul 00 - 09:53 AM
canoer 25 Jul 00 - 10:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 00 - 11:19 AM
catspaw49 25 Jul 00 - 11:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 00 - 11:39 AM
catspaw49 25 Jul 00 - 11:57 AM
dick greenhaus 25 Jul 00 - 12:42 PM
wysiwyg 25 Jul 00 - 01:23 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jul 00 - 04:00 PM
catspaw49 25 Jul 00 - 04:09 PM
wysiwyg 25 Jul 00 - 04:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 00 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,annamora 25 Jul 00 - 04:21 PM
Ebbie 25 Jul 00 - 04:33 PM
Mbo 25 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM
Liz the Squeak 25 Jul 00 - 04:39 PM
Midchuck 25 Jul 00 - 04:42 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 25 Jul 00 - 04:50 PM
wysiwyg 25 Jul 00 - 05:11 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Jul 00 - 06:14 PM
Mbo 25 Jul 00 - 06:19 PM
IvanB 25 Jul 00 - 07:30 PM
Bill D 25 Jul 00 - 10:15 PM
MMario 25 Jul 00 - 10:19 PM
Mbo 25 Jul 00 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,Mark Cohen at the hospital 25 Jul 00 - 11:23 PM
Easy Rider 26 Jul 00 - 08:48 AM
Peter T. 26 Jul 00 - 10:40 AM
Mbo 26 Jul 00 - 10:47 AM
Marymac90 26 Jul 00 - 12:01 PM
canoer 26 Jul 00 - 03:20 PM
Peter T. 26 Jul 00 - 04:18 PM
Bill D 26 Jul 00 - 05:16 PM
NH Dave 26 Jul 00 - 08:57 PM
dick greenhaus 26 Jul 00 - 09:19 PM
Mark Cohen 27 Jul 00 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Joe Fineman 27 Jul 00 - 02:15 PM
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Subject: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: GUEST,Fedele (not a guest - I'm just in a library)
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:02 AM

Well, what's that? Somebody spoke about it in some threads. It looks as an interesting songbook. I'd like to know more about it, and is there a way to obtain it? (I live in Italy and I got no credit card,)


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Easy Rider
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:32 AM

"Rise Up Singing" is a song book, published by Sing Out Magazine. Check out:

Sing Out


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: canoer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:20 AM

Strongly recommended!!!! Words and basic chord patterns (no tunes, you have to know them or get them elsewhere).


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:24 AM

As for how to get a copy in Italy without a credit card, that's a toughie. Anyone going to Italy this summer?


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:42 AM

Forgive me, but I'm a little cynical about RUS. For the following reasons:

1) The chord patterns they give are incomprehensible, and largely useless.

2) They insist on changing lyrics to make them more politically correct. If a song is trad., that's their choice. If it is by a known author, it should not be changed without the author's express permission. Period. Nondebateable.

3) Peoples' devotion to this one book has put it in danger of becoming an entirely arbitrary criterion for whether a song is "important" - worth singing - or not. I happen to like a great many songs that aren't in the book.

I think Digitrad is an infinitely better resource. What's that you say? "But Digitrad is only available to people with computers and internet access!" Well, the rest are obsolete, and will die out pretty soon anyway.

Gawd, it's fun to be grouchy on a Tuesday morning.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:53 AM

I like the book, particularly cause it's handy to have so many useful songs in one book. But I'm going to have to agree with Peter on the chord patters. Some of them are just flat out WRONG! Look at the progressions for "Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound" and "Roddy McCorley". They are totally screwed up.

--Matt (who's checked it out of the library a million times and is too cheap to buy it)


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: canoer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:58 AM

Perfect, it's not. Useful, it is.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:19 AM

I never seen Rise up Singing, for some reason or other. Another American geared words-with-chords book which is quite useful is Folksinger's wordbook by Fred and Irwin Silber. It's not very portable, but that has its advantages, with all the people in threads here who compain about the practice of it being used as a hymn book..

However, no one book can carry all the range of songs you want, in the version you want, unless you put it together yourself.

For Irish song's - or rather "Folksongs and Balads popular in Ireland" - the four pocket sized volumes published by Ossian, and put together by John Loesberg is very handy, with words, tunes and chords and a few notes thrown in. But it really needs a fifth volume now, because it's more that 10 years since the fourth came out, and there's lots of great songs going around that aren't in it.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:19 AM

"Rise Up Singing" depends much on HOW its used. Barry Finn has a nice song about how its generally MIS-used.

Its the fourth in a series of of "Rise Up" books, the others being:

Rise Up Grouchy -- Midchucks favorite
Rise Up Bitchy -- A favorite of women everywhere (Spaw ducks)
Rise Up Woody -- NOT Guthrie, but a favorite of many men

Spaw


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:39 AM

"Fall Down Drinking" is the spcial edition for the English Folk scene.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:57 AM

Best-Seller from what I hear Mac!!! They have plans to release it here too.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 12:42 PM

The Folksinger's Wordbook was referred to as the Old Testament. RUS (the New Testament, is really more of a campfire songbook for the 70's than a folksong collection.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 01:23 PM

I think of it as my Esperanto songbook. Handy to have in case no one else has brought along a songbook or if seven people have each brought seven different ones and the people are all too old to read across that many shoulders! There is a lot of crap, but also something everyone can agree on, and no one gets hurt. No one likes it so much they insist on using it when other stuff is available. And it's a little more portable than DT, especially if you are at a truckstop where there is no hookup to get online, or at the airport with no printer.

But like Esperanto, it is hard to learn to use well and not worth the effort most of the time. Most of the time the fun is easier to come by just with fooling around with tunes people can recall.

Of course as we all lose our ability to memorize in this crazy society, not to mention those of us who fall prey to CRS, these things will become more necessary.

Spaw, BTW, that post with titles was worth a prize. If I could find you the fox that got blown up, to keep Cleigh company or be his stunt double, I'd get it for ya man.

~S~


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:00 PM

Midchuck, I think it should be said that the more recent printings of Rise Us Singing are more likely to have the "standard" versions of songs. The early editions had some really obnoxious "politically correct" renditions of songs, but Sing Out! learned its lesson and did away with the really bad stuff.

It's certainly not perfect, but it serves as a good tool for helping non-singers sing.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:09 PM

Does it Joe? Do you all levitate? Going to heaven on a song or what? Obviously Rise Us Singing is a big improvement over Rise Up Singing.**BSEG**

Spaw

My typos are getting really bad, Spaw. I feel like I'm aging. Just think - you're almost as old as I am...
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:12 PM

Yeast!


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:17 PM

Am I right in understanding that there are folk gatherings in America where people sit around and sing from individual copies of the same book?

Where I am, when people use written words, it's normally either a looseleaf file with scrappy bits of paper in it in illegible handwriting, or a dog-eared copy of a song book that noone else has. And this is almost invariably either in a bar in a pub, or in a function room in a pub. (Well, I know one club that meets in a church vestry, but that's got a bar as well.)


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: GUEST,annamora
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:21 PM

I have the most wonderful memory. Thanksgiving a few years ago. Me, my mother and my mother-in-law, not so sober, sitting around the now-cleared dining room table singing our hearts out with that song book. We never would have been gathered around a pc doing the same thing. In the 15 years I had known my mother-in-law, I never knew she could sing. When she's sober she would absolutely deny this, of course. But boy did we sound good that night. RUS made it happen.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:33 PM

The way I like not to use it is for a group to sing a song then leaf through the book until someone says, Oh, here's one. And everyone sings that one. And then someone says, Oh, here's one, and everyone sings that one, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... A very unsatisfying evening, in my opinion.

A small group of us broke away just so we could work on songs of our choosing that we repeat,experimenting with harmonies and arrangements, until we like it. RUS is handy for ideas, though.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM

I'd have to say it's best use for me is finding chords & lyrics to all the folk people you guys always talk about, like Tom Paxton, Bill Staines, Ian Tyson, Stan Rogers, Utah Phillips, etc. You can't usually find tabs of this stuff on the net.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:39 PM

And here was me thinking it was the Folkies Viagra.....

Ho hum.

LTS


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:42 PM

From the Preface to the Original Edition of The New Song Fest - the best songbook anyone ever put out:

"A reward of one left-hand dungaree patch, guaranteed not to rip, run, rust, tear, split, melt, break, etc. is hereby offered for the pelt of the first bohunk caught surreptitiously using this book at a songfest."

(c. 1948)

Peter.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:50 PM

Annamora, I LOVE that story! I find RUD most useful when with folks who normally don't do much singing and it has indeed gotten many non-folkies into the folk scene. Those of us who are blessed with a lifetime of folk exposure and know about such things don't need it as much, but it's brought many a poor sinner to the altar of song.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 05:11 PM

Rise Up Dinging?

~S~


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:14 PM

Grath. I agree. To make your own songbook is the best solution. With the various lyric sites around the internet, it is possible to have the words to 1000 songs put in your own book which include songs which are important to YOU alone. I opt for that solution.

As to the position of it being portable, I put the songs in Word format, and bought a Palm Pilot IIIe which is holding all except for my Gaelic songs. This little 2 Meg PDA has all I need for this time.

(HOWEVER I suspect I should have bought the 8 Meg version)


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:19 PM

I've heard of a Palm Pilot before...is it like a tricorder? You can type stuff on them and save it? How big is the screen?

--Matt


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: IvanB
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:30 PM

I bought my first copy of RUS this summer after being to a number of Elderhostels where we had group singing of old chestnuts to which I never did properly learn the words. I was pleasantly surprised at the number of folk songs, both old and new, that were included. And I have to assume that I've got one of the later editions Joe refers to above, since the lyrics aren't always 'pc.' As a case in point, I'd quote a line from 'City of New Orleans' as listed in the DT: "freight yards full of old gray men," and, as in RUS: "... of old black men." I'd have to question which is the 'politically corrected' version. No criticism of the DT is intended here. Since the lyrics in the database have largely been contributed from many people, it's inevitable the version some people will remember and contribute will be the 'cleaned up' version.

As far as 'incomprehensible' chord progressions, I think one has to read the 'How to Use' section in front to understand them. I've found once I learned the 'shorthand' method used, I can read the chords pretty well. I think, too, the chord progressions have probably been corrected in later editions. I don't find a whole lot of off the wall progressions, but there are some.

All in all, I think it's a useful book as long as it's not considered the be all and end all for any type of music..


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:15 PM

" either a looseleaf file with scrappy bits of paper in it in illegible handwriting, or a dog-eared copy of a song book that no one else has."

..yep, that's me!
...as for RUS, we have debated that little item endlessly..some like it, some hate it. Me? I think it is to Folk Music as McDonalds is to 'fine dining'..usable in an emergency when nothing else is available, but not something you want to depend on forever.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:19 PM

palm pilots have about a two inch square screen. look like a cell phone


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:25 PM

Dang that's too small! Guess I'll stick with my folders!


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen at the hospital
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:23 PM

I think Ride Out Winging is good as far as it goes, which is sometimes, as annamora mentioned, quite far. I certainly have had some great evenings with the book, and I try not to be a snob about it. Having said that, I agree that circles where someone says, "OK, now let's go to page 33" can be incredibly tedious. I also agree that many of the chords are simply wrong, but hey, guys, that was a hell of a lot of work and it's a damn sight better than any book I ever published, so I'm willing to overlook the wrong chords and enjoy the right ones. It also is a tremendous improvement on the first edition, if anybody remembers that skinny old book with the black and white cover. By the way, Ivan, you're right, Steve Goodman sang "old black men" so in this case RUS wins.

I'd also like to call everyone's attention to this wonderful song by Craig Brandis of Portland, Oregon, called Not in the Book. I think it pretty much sums up the anti-RUS sentiment, and I have to say there are times I agree wholeheartedly.

See what you started, Fedele? Isn't the Mudcat great?

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Easy Rider
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:48 AM

GUEST,Mark Cohen at the hospital:

I really like that song "It's Not in the Book". Do you have the Key, time signature, chords for it? Is it in a book somewhere? ;-)

I imported the MIDI file (just melody) into TablEdit, and it came out in 3/4 time, with the notes all off the beat.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:40 AM

I like the book, except for the dopy pictures, the section on MEN which is pukey, and, as has been said, some strange chordings. One thing that puzzles me about RUS is that a number of the chordings would be improved just by adding a few 7ths to the chords. My version has about a crillion 7ths added in pencil. It is as if somebody banished them for some reason -- it is not as if A7, D7, E7 and B7 are unknown even to relative beginners. I would have also put in a page or two of simple music theory and key patterns (the I,IV, V7s of each key) for stumblers. But you can't have everything. It is a nice size, DOESN'T FALL APART. I paste songs I like over the dreary ones.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:47 AM

Peter, you're funny!


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Marymac90
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:01 PM

Dear Folks,

I happen to know Peter Blood and Annie Patterson, who put RUS together. They happen to live down near West Chester, and maybe sometime I can get them to come to Mudcat Radio. I can remember being at sings at Peter's house aorund 20 years ago, where we used mimeographed song sheets, before they published the predecessor to RUS, Winds of the People (skinny, with light green cover). If you thought RUS had a lot of pc lyric changes, they're nothin' compared to WotP!

But these books, and the songsheets that came before 'em, have made it possible for people who never would have been able to spend an evening singing together to to do so, to learn new songs, and to have a great time! Believe me, I LOVE Getaway-style singing with a variety of leaders who know all the words, and a group of people who can pick up a chorus and fill a large room with it. But not everybody is ready for that. Some people can freeze up if they don't have the words in front of 'em. And using the book is better than using just ONE leader, who picks and leads ALL the songs. In that situation, folks feel that if it weren't for fearless leader, they wouldn't be able to sing at all. RUS gets the gift of song spread out among more people.

I know many people have complained about the chords. To my knowledge, Peter worked out a lot of those chords himself with a guitar, in his SPARE time-he must have a lot of it-he's a nurse/therapist and a father of 2 kids, last I heard! They're also putting together a second volume, from what I hear. I agree with what Mark wrote-it's a damn sight better than any book I ever published!!!

I know some people love it and some hate it, but I would just ask those who find it useful to refrain from one thing: please don't cut, paste, add to it, xerox it, and hand it out or sell it, and call it Your OWN Group Songbook. I have seen this done, and it irks me no end. Where you get the material in your OWN personal notebook is up to you, but please don't steal from RUS and then pass it off to others as your own work, as someone in NJ has done.

McGrath, there are really very few sings or sessions in bars or public places in the US, so most people are totally unaware that this is a possible form of amusement. I am fortunate to have one of the few near me, a wonderful bar called the Mermaid, that has Open Circles twice a month.

There ARE concerts and coffeehouses that have singers and musicians perform. There are open stages at bars at that musicians can sign up to appear at, in the hope of gaining a following of fans. There are folk song societies that sponsor sings in private homes, but you don't hear about them if you're not already a member. Sometimes at the performances there are songs that the audience is encouraged to sing along with.

But there is precious little opportunity to get together and sing with other folks, where the FOLKS, and not the musicians, are in charge of what gets sung. RUS is a tool to use to encourage that kind of participation. For some folks, it's a good tickler to remind them of what they already know. For others, it can be a confidence builder. I know most Mudcatters don't NEED it, but for some other folks, it can make the difference as to whether or not they can get a group of folks together for an evening of singing. In MY book, an evening of singing, even "out of the BOOK" beats an evening of tv watching all to hell anytime!

Yours for more singing,

Mary McCaffrey


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: canoer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:20 PM

Well Spoken Mary!!!!


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:18 PM

funny ha ha or funny peculiar? yours, Peter T. (P.S. I also agree with Mary -- if RUS gets people away from TV and out singing it is worth its weight in gold)


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:16 PM

...now if "The Folksinger's Wordbook" had been published in two volumes, instead of one slightly unwieldy one, and been bound nicely like RUS is, we might have something! At least we'd have a book where a good portion of the songs were still somewhere near 'trad' in their verses and chords.

*sigh*...I guess if it gets folks singing, that's good, but if they get to thinking that RUS is the bible, then that's sad.

(I do own a copy of RUS)


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: NH Dave
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:57 PM

I originally mentioned RUS and Song Fest in another thread a few days ago. Although there are many opinions about both of these small books, they are/were good sources for the beginning singer, especially RUS' videos which are nice for teachers who may have NO idea of the tune, traditional or not, that goes with the lyrics. I have Silber's Folk Singers Wordbook which I bought when it originally sold for around $ 11.95, a steal in those days. Now at around $ 50, it is a bit pricey, and doesn't cover any material written or popularized later than its original copyright date.

If Fedele will e-mail me, perhaps we can work out a swap for something he has from Italy.

Dave


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 09:19 PM

Mark- I don't know why the MIDIfication of my SongWright file muddled the timing, but the tune is that of Fathom the Bowl. For some reason, the MIDI version has odd timing, and many tied notes untied.

BTW-My comment about RUS earlier was not a put-down. For what it is--a campfire songbook for the 1970s--it's a pretty good job.

RE: PC in RUS and DT (there's a lot if initials)
DT has whatever's submitted, edited only if mis-spellings are obvious or if the editor (me) knows it needs editing. RUS is distinctly edited. If anyone thinks there's something incorrect (or overly correct) in the DT, please let me know. Everything here's fixable.

Midchuck--thanx for the quote. My copy of Songfest has that page missing.

BTW, I picked up a used Toshiba Libretto. It's a full pentium system measuring about 5 x 8=1/2 x 1 inch, has more than enough storage for the entire DT, has a screen about 3-1/2 x 5" and even has a sound card to play the tunes. Nice portable reference and, at a couple or three ounces more than RUS, demonstrates the feasability of an electronic reference book. Desirability is a different matter.


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 02:05 AM

Thanks for mentioning it Dick, I forgot to mention that Craig's song is a parody (or spoof, or whatever that other word is that my ginkgo-starved brain has forgotten) of Fathom the Bowl. To my mind it is sung best Acapulco--er, a capella, with an enthusiastic chorus, so chords would actually be a detriment. However, I recognize there are those of other minds, and any chords or accompaniment you can find to Fathom the Bowl should be usable for this song.

And Dick (and Susan, and everyone else who helps out), let me take this opportunity to thank you yet again for your tireless work on the Digital Tradition. I was very pleased (though not at all surprised) to find Craig's song there.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: What's RISE UP SINGING?
From: GUEST,Joe Fineman
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 02:15 PM

RUS has its points even for long-time singers if they are strangers in a group of singers, and in groups that do not have the same composition over long periods. Almost anything is better than half a dozen people each trying to sing his or her notion of _the real words_ to "Midnight Special" or "Frankie & Johnny".

The version of "City of New Orleans" in which the old black men are bleached is on a record by The Country Gentlemen -- a pedestrian performance altogether, IMO. RUS has it straight.

Joe Fineman


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