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BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians

Mr Happy 08 Jul 02 - 04:24 AM
Don Firth 07 Jul 02 - 10:46 PM
Nigel Parsons 07 Jul 02 - 07:57 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 02 - 06:08 PM
The Pooka 06 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,guest...tarheel 06 Jul 02 - 08:08 PM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jul 02 - 06:36 PM
Celtic Soul 05 Jul 02 - 10:41 PM
The Pooka 05 Jul 02 - 08:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jul 02 - 06:33 PM
InOBU 05 Jul 02 - 04:05 PM
Don Firth 05 Jul 02 - 03:56 PM
catspaw49 05 Jul 02 - 01:57 PM
Lonesome EJ 05 Jul 02 - 01:55 PM
mack/misophist 05 Jul 02 - 01:49 PM
Don Firth 05 Jul 02 - 01:34 PM
Art Thieme 05 Jul 02 - 11:48 AM
katlaughing 05 Jul 02 - 11:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Jul 02 - 11:31 AM
Mr Happy 05 Jul 02 - 11:30 AM
MMario 05 Jul 02 - 11:20 AM
katlaughing 05 Jul 02 - 11:20 AM
Art Thieme 05 Jul 02 - 11:12 AM
InOBU 05 Jul 02 - 06:57 AM
Dave Bryant 05 Jul 02 - 06:09 AM
Mr Happy 05 Jul 02 - 03:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jul 00 - 06:29 PM
Pseudolus 19 Jul 00 - 06:29 PM
Dorrie 19 Jul 00 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,andy mööer 19 Jul 00 - 06:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jul 00 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,harpgirl 18 Jul 00 - 10:00 PM
Big Mick 18 Jul 00 - 08:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 00 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,Another guitarist 18 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 18 Jul 00 - 06:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 00 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 18 Jul 00 - 01:16 AM
Mrs.Duck 17 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM
Mooh 17 Jul 00 - 05:24 PM
Bill D 16 Jul 00 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,guitarist 16 Jul 00 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 16 Jul 00 - 12:33 AM
IvanB 16 Jul 00 - 12:19 AM
katlaughing 16 Jul 00 - 12:10 AM
Big Mick 15 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 00 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,Rump-a-long-a-stilskin 15 Jul 00 - 08:10 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jul 00 - 05:51 PM
Dale Rose 15 Jul 00 - 05:45 PM
Big Mick 15 Jul 00 - 05:42 PM
Dale Rose 15 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 15 Jul 00 - 05:32 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jul 00 - 05:26 PM
Hardiman the Fiddler 15 Jul 00 - 05:15 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jul 00 - 05:10 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 00 - 04:50 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jul 00 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Rump-a-long-a-stilskin 15 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 04:24 AM

to all respondents of revived thread,

i didn't appreciate it was a nasty flame thread & i've no wish to be a disruptive element on mc.

i hang my head & offer abject apologies for any offence caused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 10:46 PM

I don't think GUEST quite grasps the idea. For all the BS threads, Mudcat and DT are fantastic resources. If I'd had access to resources like this back in the Fifties, I could have Ruled The World! (But then, of course, so could everyone else.) Nevertheless, if one is interested in just goofin', one can do it here. It's kind of a fun place. If one is interested in some pretty heavy scholarship involving folk music, music in general, or a variety of other subjects, this is a pretty good place to start. If someone can't tell you exactly what you want to know, they can usually point a direction in which to look, complete with links. Lots of very knowledgeable people hang out here.

Trash Mudcat all you want if that's how you get your giggles, but I'm in it for the long haul.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 07:57 PM

I think 'Guest' may have it wrong. Most 'Catters are musicians, some are performing, some are appreciating.
Not withstanding my earlier comments, I Do consider myself a 'musician' although my main instrument is 'voice', I have a fairly catholic knowledge of songs and of music.
I feel this is the opposite of the classic 'Marx' quote: "I wouldn't wish to belong to any club which would have me as a member'." The wish to be a 'Catter shows sufficient interest in the genre to identify someone as a musician. Even if the person "Couldn't carry a tune in a bucket" This is only my personal opinion!!!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 06:08 PM

Because if most Mudcatters were musicians, this forum wouldn't exist. Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM

A *chasteroom*? Hm. Who knew? (OK, so I stuck in the "e". Sorry.)

Nigel, thanks fer the correction, and the correction of the correction! Hey, Heinlein sounded good to me. (Who knew?) Yes, your citation was properly qualified. Well, Theodore Sturgeon, he's nice too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,guest...tarheel
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 08:08 PM

no doubt about it...it's a chastroom here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 06:36 PM

Pooka: my quote was wrong. I said "IIRC R A Heinlein" I've been corrected via PM that it was Arthur C Clarke, so I checked, and we were both wrong, It was Theodore Sturgeon. But at least I qualified mine with that 'IIRC'

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 10:41 PM

"Pretending It's A Serious Question", part the third...or fourth, or whatever.

I am a semi-professional musician. I have been performing in some fashion or another for 25 years. I have nearly a 3 octave range, create my own harmony lines, and play bodhran well enough to not get stoned to death. However, my knowledge of music is 99% intuitive. I do not read music, but (if I have heard the tune) I can follow written music passibly well. I could not tell you the particular history of many if any of the songs we do. My group does include someone who could. Most of what I do here is surf the forum for new material and learn from the threads that do have informative posts. Occasionally (and compared to the overall time I spend here, it is only *occasionally*) I post myself. I think there are likely folks here who are *not* "musicians" (in the strictist sense of the word)...who do *not* earn any money at it, or who do *not* consider themselves good enough to perform on a stage, who could trample my sorry butt into the dirt with the amount of knowledge they possess. Thing is, this is not a music hall. It is an internet forum with the theme of "Music". It is *about* music...it is not "music". You can hear music.

As for the rest...If I don't want to read it, I don't read it. Simple as that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:52 PM

"How to define a musician? I can (just about) play a penny whistle... My sole claim is that I think I'm a musician, with 'Voice' as my instrument." Hey! I'm a musician too then!! Thanks Nigel Parsons. Seriously. And thanks for the Robert A. Heinlein quote too. A great writer & a wise man.

I've no idea how many, but surely some of us are just interested "fans" -- audience -- who like both the Music threads and the Other threads too. The Mudcat makes us feel welcome. / Provided we don't act like morons. / Well. Not *too* often anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:33 PM

"This is a non-musical posting" said Art. Actually his little story had the makings of a great song, just didn't happen to be in metric form etc.

I suppose there's a logic in reviving old threads sometimes to remind us that nothing really changes. I tend to miss the dates half the time, and often enough ignore the name of the poster while I'm skimming through - then I get brought to a skid by some post that seems oddly familiar. "What is this eejit getting at?" I find myself thinking, and then I see it's from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:05 PM

Yup! Missed the dates! I was wondering at what I had missed, that someone was pissed at McGrath! Well, play nice anyway! (I wasn't complaining, Mr. Happy, I was just saying, stop frowning at each other and grin, sing, drink, ya know, play nice!)
Cheers'mdears, Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:56 PM

Following misophist's example, I, too, will assume that this thread poses a serious question. And GUEST Rump, etc., I think you may be making rash assumptions about the contributors to Mudcat. For example, even though misophist may not have achieved professional renown, one need not be a professional to be regarded as a musician.

As for myself:— I began taking singing lessons in 1949 when I was eighteen, with no particular plans to do anything with it other than just have fun. When I was twenty-one, I became intensely interested in folk music and began to learn the guitar. I took several months' lessons in folk guitar from Walt Robertson, then began studying classic guitar in 1955. I took voice lessons and classic guitar lessons off and on for the next dozen years. I had an opportunity to take flamenco guitar lessons from Antonio Zori for six months in 1962. I attended the University of Washington School of Music for three years and the Cornish School of the Arts (Music Program) for two years. I also studied music theory privately. In folk guitar styles, folklore, and ethnomusicology I am essentially self-taught, but I have learned a great deal from others (and not all of them were musicians).

I began teaching classic and folk guitar privately in the mid-Fifties, and started the first folk guitar classes in Seattle in 1960. I taught for a total of twelve years, in class and privately.

Between 1955 and 1966, I sang regularly in coffeehouses and clubs, did about forty concerts in the Pacific Northwest, California, Colorado, British Columbia and Ontario. I had my own television series on public television, and did several other shows on both public and commercial TV. I performed several times a week during the Seattle World's Fair in 1962, was a regular performer at the Seattle Center Hootenannies, and was a member of the Seattle Center Hootenanny Tour Group. I have participated in numerous folk festivals in the Pacific Northwest and in California.

I made my living that way, and although I wasn't getting rich by any means, I was able to eat, pay the rent, and enjoy the simple things of life. In 1966, I grew weary of the sporadic and unpredictable nature of my income, so I took a "day job." I have continued to perform, but since I no longer rely on music for my livelihood, I sing only when and where I want to. I also still give an occasional guitar lesson.

1.— I think I probably qualify as a "musician;"

2.— So I have no intention of shutting up;

3.— And if you can't find enough music threads, you just ain't lookin'.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:57 PM

Sorry this one got refreshed as kat and Mario pointed out.....But on the other hand, I would have missed an Art Thiemeism which has me laughing hard.....and which I intend to steal at every opportunity!!!!!

".....giving each other the Electro-Finger".....

Man, Art, that's priceless!!!!!! As always!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:55 PM

Art, your post is truly a load of crap. Literally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:49 PM

I'm going to pretend this thread poses a serious quistion. I had about 10 years of classical piano training. I played woodwinds (clarinet, sax, flute) for at least 8 years. I tried to play professionally for almost a year. You wanna know what happened? It's a hard life. Especially if you're not good enough. Some of us aren't, you know; no matter how hard we try. Since all I can do is hang out on the fringes, that's what I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:34 PM

I sorta wonder where GUEST Rumpleforehead gets his, her, or its statistics. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:48 AM

When I was a kid in Chicago in the 1940s--early 50s, I saw Duffy Fisher remove dog shit from his shoe with his hand---an unheard of thing to do. Then I made the mistake of telling Mike Gains what Duffo had done. That put a rent between the factions that was never to be healed. We all began to walk to school always looking, over our shoulders because our backs had to be carefully watched. Defensively, we always walked down the opposite sides of the street. Winter meant snowball fights. Summer meant less than it used to. The next year an escalation reared it's ugly head; snowballs with rocks inside of 'em---and sometimes frozen dog merde---began to be regular parts of the various arsenals. When we were older, we all formed our respective street gangs----and all that that entails. Now we're at Mudcat and we are all busy giving each other the electro-finger from the supposed safety of our cyberspace terminals.

LET'S ALL JUST GROW UP and emulate the wonderful examples provided for us by the governments of our various nations.

This is a non-musical posting if you hadn't figured it out.

Peace,

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:44 AM

My point exactly, MMario...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:31 AM

MMario: thanks forn the "Look at the dates" comment; I was about to ask if Little Hawk was a 'newbie', what chance for the rest of us!
However, in response to the initial troll. How to define a musician? I can (just about) play a penny whistle. I can, if required pick out a melody (preferably in 'C') on a piano). My sole claim is that I think I'm a musician, with 'Voice' as my instrument.
Of course, if half the effort which went into responding to trolls was expended on DTStudies, or lyrics or origins threads, we might make more headway.
But to quote R A Heinlein (IIRC) when told that 90% of SF was crap. "90% of everything is crap!" it is still woth going through for that last 10%.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:30 AM

inobu,

don't kno why you're complaining- did you accidently post to the wrong thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:20 AM

look at the DATES!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:20 AM

Sometimes it is a lot better to start a new thread than to pick an old scab.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:12 AM

???????????????????????????????????????????

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:57 AM

FOLKS! Here we are on the eve of this great musical effort, the Mudcat CD, and there is a thread like this. In the words of that poor fellow who got beaten up by the LA cops, "can't we all just get along?" Let's face it, this place should not be causeing folks to loose sleep! This is the gentlest of pubs, no one goes home with a black eye (less they hit their head on the monitor in fustration...) COme on, anyone who does not see the gentleness and gentilness of the likes of McGrath needs to ajust the rear view mirror and notice that it is a happy wee Vee Dub classic puttering up on ye and not a big articulated lorry! PLAY NICE! Give the ol' Gargoyle a polish on the head and a hug, and talk of the things that matter from music to what makes us sing.
Peace in these times of war,
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:09 AM

I believe that Sir Thomas Beecham was fond of referring to "Musicians and Singers" as though one excluded the other. I'm sure that if you add the categories Dancer, Collector, Storyteller, and Audience you will probably find that most 'Catters fit in somewhere. Yes, we do talk about other subjects on the 'Cat, but so do most of us at clubs, festivals etc.

Most folk music is connected with life experiences, and it's interesting to notice how even the most trivial of threads attract musical (or monologue) references. I've been reminded of "folk" links by all sorts of threads musical or not (just check the current CRICKET threads). Also some of the discussion helps me to understand how others perceive certain subjects, which can have a bearing on what material I perform and how I approach it.

Finally, HARPGIRL, don't get upset by McGrath - Kevin's a bit of a Folkie Victor Meldrew at times, but the world would be a poorer place without "The Marmite Song".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:58 AM

i feel this site & all its serious + unserious [bs] topics is but a written down encapsulation of a typical night out at a fc or session.

we all don't just sing, play music only- we talk, chat, discuss with our chums music, songs and every other subject under the sun [or rather, it being night time-under the moon] & we enjoy each other's company like on mc.

there's in-jokes & out-jokes, cliques, openness, exclusivity, inclusiveness all at the same time.

people can get pissed off with each other too like mc, then make up & agree to disagree,but all in all, its brill- the music, singing,fun, the craic- its just like real life!

[or am i just sad or easily pleased?- i don't think so]

cheer up,

mr h


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 06:29 PM

I like the word "musicianer" myself. As in this


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Pseudolus
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 06:29 PM

I think it's interesting that people start threads or post to them with their own inane chatter to complain about all the threads about inane chatter..... Isn't that kinda like kicking somebody's ass because they believe in violence?

Maybe it's just me.... Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Dorrie
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 06:14 PM

Back to the point you don't have to be a musician to enjoy the music


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,andy mööer
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 06:37 AM

Everyone will glorify the past now and then ,and mabye there is a golden past (for everything) and everything is in constant deterioration.I'm talking of course about comments made of the mudcat.BUT,I'm fairly infant to the mudcat(mabye two months) ,and when I clicked on the bit that says 'forum and chat' I saw kind of what I expected Although the chat is (despite what people say) often musically oriented.I believe that some people have grand expectations of mudcat and when these are not met they are naturally dissapointed. In every single quarter of life you encounter people and opinions that you find you cant agree with,Mudcat is made up of these people and I dont want to change that,although I do find peoples criticisms of one another upsetting sometimes.If people are unhappy about the music content TALK ABOUT MUSIC ,its much more effective than telling the forum what you thing is wrong. Anyway I diddnt mean to write so much,what I wanted to say was that my first mudcat experience was starting that 'Mostly Finnish music' thread and I was completly(in it's completeness)delighted with the responses. There are so many positive things about this place,so please cut the poor Cat a bit of slack.möi,möi ,Andy


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:23 AM

A HearMe for women only by definition means a HearMe where men are not admitted. As harpgirl said "It didn't include them." So I can't understand the rationale for saying that men have no business talking about it.

And suggesting that, when someone has provided a facility for us, they have no right to have any opinion about it -"why do you have to have any input on this?"... I don't quite see how that adds up.

And as for the stuff about 24 hours and so forth - it may not be evening where harpgirl is, but it's evenig somewhere else. The Mudcat stretches round the world.

And I've nothing agaisnt an all female HearMe, and I said so. Or rather, I've nothing against a HearMe sometimes from which men are excluded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 10:00 PM

...hey guest guitarist...I ain't the other one! I sign all my rants! If Mick brings back Dale Rose and bbc for good measure, I'll apologize. He's the professional negotiator, afterall, he can do it!
....Hearme could be anytime other than evenings. That leaves all day all morning and from three to six am: most of the hours. The fact that men had any opinion on this at all proves my point. Why do women need any input at all from men on this suggestion? It didn't include them. I will not back down on this. Why didn't anyone point out that Hearme works 24/7 and not just evenings? And who says I held jon responsible for all the remarks of the men? All I said to Jon was "why do you have to have any input on this?"
Yes, I have squandered my mythic persona lately, very astute.....leave me alone now, I don't really want to be a real presence on the forum anymore....harp


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:40 PM

I asked that no defense be raised. No apology to me is necessary. Let people read the threads and make their own judgements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:57 PM

I don't believe in public apologies. And I believe even less in asking for them. In real life it never helps. What happens is that people lose their temper, then they cool off, and then later they indicate they're sorry, sometimes directly, sometimes implicitly.

(And I wasn't asking for one harpgirl, honest, - I was just curious. In real life I'm always being untactful, and it gets pointed out to me or I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be the least surprised to find that I'd been so on the Mudcat as well. And untactful can feel like bullying.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,Another guitarist
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM

Harpgirl, of course you would like for people to give it a rest. You have been acting terribly for several months. It is not enough to say you were wrong. You need to apologize to a number of people beginning with Jon Freeman, moving to McGrath, Shambles, Big Mick, and even Kat though she drives me nuts with her need to be a part of every conversation regardless of whether she has something important to say. But she didn't deserve the title of bully. I want you to know that I went back and read the Hearme thread, and this thread. Know what I found? I found that I cannot figure out what your problem is. Freeman didn't do anything wrong, McGrath either. Shambles was just being Shambles and that is nothing new or wrong. Jon Freeman, McGrath of Harlow & Shambles have been very good for this place. Mostly I checked on Big Mick because it really intrigued me why you would attack him so intently. I can remember times when you two engaged in banter. Like in the Tavern that Mick pointed out in the Garbage thread. Mick is a guy who has consistently tried to encourage civility here and could be accused in the Hearme thread of doing nothing more than speaking the truth. You just did not want to hear that. He told those that were opposed to your idea they were wrong, and he told you that you treated Freeman poorly and that he was owed an apology. Your response to that was to make a PMS joke. You should have offered Jon that apology. In the musician thread one could accuse Mick of being patronising toward Dale Rose. But if you look at the three posts that occurred on 15-7-00 beginning at 5:35 you will find that it was Rose that started yelling. Using capital letters is considered yelling on the Internet if you don't know that. I thought Mick's response was little more than direct. He usually uses more tact, but everyone has a bad day. If Rose left over that, he was ready to go already. Later that evening you called him "non-musical". So I went and checked. Mick hasn't posted much musical lately, but he was away from us for 3-4 months on that political thing he was doing. Going back from January 1, reveals a person that has participated in every aspect of this Forum, especially music, in a superb way for a long time. Your use of terms like "mythic person's/charisma" sounded mostly like sour grapes to me. It is important to point out that he never asked to be treated that way. He is treated that way because of the way his posts touch us all. When he hits an issue like the Christmas stories, or the Vietnam posting, he reaches into us and makes us feel it. There is nothing wrong with special status when it has been earned. You just seem mad that you have squandered yours. Mick could probably stand to make an apology for being a bit short with Dale, but I refuse to accept that he was responsible for Mr. Rose leaving. And you, or whoever was responsible for the comment made by GUEST:guitarist should be ashamed. Looked to me like unresolved Oedipal issues. How's your relationship with your Father?
You think this will just blow over, but it won't. Apparently you have had some strife in your life of a terrible nature recently. You have made oblique references to it several times. I am sorry to hear that. I am sure everyone here is sorry to here that. I have met the big fella and a number of other Mudcatters. I know that even with all that has been said, they feel badly for whatever you went through. That will buy you a little time, but in the end you must apologize for acting badly. How about it? Will you go back to being Harpgirl? Or will you continue being a harpie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:34 PM

...give it a rest McGrath. No one is a bully. I was wrong wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!!!!! ( thank god you're back garg; they're trying to turn me into a gargoyle too!) Hmmmmmm... sitting on a building all day with nothing to do but be stoned might be a great life!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 04:38 PM

Since harpgirl's demolished her cookie and gone anon I can't ask for examples of my bullying proclivities.

I'm not saying there may not be some, but I really can't think of any. That may of course indicate that I'm unduly insensitive to what I'm saying. Anyway, I'm definitely curious to know more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 01:16 AM

Dear Rump....and Dale....good question!!!

This site is owned by Max, and serviced by Joe, who prostitute the original musical libertarian genius of Dick and Susan.

Look for noses of brown on creatures like Kat....and remember the child's tune....

Mister Rabbit Mister Rabbit your ears are mighty long. Yes, Praise God they been put on wrong

In the case of the MudCat...Max (being god)determines the ears and how they are placed.

One year after my "banishment" I am proud to see the prephecies of so many.... fullfilled....like Camelot...today's Mudcat is a tranished, twisted, rotting turnip that no longer reflects its past glory. Such is the way of all mortals who make themselves "gods" even a plug by the nationally syndicated Parade Magazine has not improved the overall picture.

Rump and Dale...move on ....there are still Elysian Fields of brillant Folk music discussion....seek and you shall find....it is no use attempting to teach poor, ignorant critters how to sing....the Digital Tradition is also on many other sites.

Most Importantly...... HAVE FUN!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM

No Mudcatters are people and just as a night out at a music session will involve serious playing alongside (hopefully) witty and interesting conversations then Mudcat will also !!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:24 PM

When I first saw this thread, the thought came to me that it could be a discussion about whether music appreciators/listeners can be considered musicians. My short answer to that idea is "no, not strictly speaking, IMHO". However, I've known music fans, as opposed to musicians, who were extremely musical and intuitively so.

May I risk discussion about this?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:39 PM

...so, harpgirl, if you are anon, that means you wouldn't get a personal message...*sigh*...

I have been here since early Jan of '97, under one name...have my own complaints, but just keep plodding along...singing, answering questions when I can, asking a few when I need to..(and ALWAYS getting nice answers)...joking with folks who have become friends, admonishing some others when I thought they needed it.....but ALWAYS grateful this this wild, crazy place exists. Max made the point awhile back that his job was to make the forum available, ours is to make it 'something'....we have, and it is sad that some very nice people have decided it is not quite to their liking. I suppose it is like going to a bar, or a club, or a restaurant--sometimes they change and don't suit YOUR personality. At least here, no one blows smoke directly in your face, and if you open a thread which has loud, noisy people whose posts are silly and/or offensive, you can, unlike a restaurant, make them to shut up with a click of your mouse on the 'back' button. I kinda like that.

you know, 'harpy, I even agree with you about a few people and points you make about them, but mostly they are decent folk, and I am willing to cope with them, but except for 'personally sensitive' material, I hate anonimity...*big sigh*....I sure wish it were easier....


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,guitarist
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:08 PM

oh, what the hell -- ROFLMAO!!!

That paragraph of "Big Mick"'s where he begins "I am truly sorry you find me smug", and then follows with the most drippingly smug, patronizing, narcissictic, sanctimonious drivel imaginable -- that's just priceless. You can't make shit like that up!

ahahahahahaha -- is that really what passes for "charisma" here? I just see a fat guy with a personality very much akin to the "Church Lady". So much for mythic persona...

too much...ah, Harpgirl, was this ever really a music site? That's sad, it must have been nice -- it's comical to me, I've just been here a few weeks, and have no emotional stake in the place. Your characterization of the place is exactly what I've felt about it. There are a few kind and knowledgeable folks here, and a few good threads -- if that was the dominant culture here at one time, it truly is a loss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 12:33 AM

...that was me by the way and I do mean what I said!actually the most distasteful duo of bullies lately besides Conrad, Shambles, and McGrath, has been you two! I will now go back to being anonymous! The fact that individuals are more civil on Hearme than here in the forum is the one remark I agree with. But there has been some petty behavior in their as well.
And what it is in the present is what we all make it.
I for one think that responding anonymously is a valid way of participating. So back I go...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: IvanB
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 12:19 AM

Guest, I would add only one comment to Mick's post: If you don't like the direction this community is moving why don't you try to do something about it? And, by that, I don't mean fretting or wringing your virtual hands in recriminations over the awful things going on in the Mudcat Forum. Why not start your own thread discussing some musical point. I, for one, would love to see more serious discussion. And, frankly, I believe many of those who you categorize as 'compulsive posters' would probably join in these discussions as well. Were enough 'serious' threads started, those who are only interested in idle chitchat might become discouraged and look for another place to carry on their discussions.

Yes, many people may seem to be compulsive posters, but I also see many of those same people posting to the Lyr Req, help:*** and similar threads. I also see many of them in Hearme, some sharing their songs and tunes, others listening, but all very supportive.

As a relative newcomer to Mudcat, I've been impressed with Dale Rose's posts up until now. But I must say that I'm with Mick in finding both his posts to this thread condescending and demeaning (my characterization, not Mick's). Any community changes over time. If we don't like the directions those changes are taking it, we can work to turn it in the right direction or we can leave. My choice is to try to help make this a community where all who profess an interest in folk and blues can be comfortable,whether they want to discuss a tricky chord progression in somebody's blues song or ask what to do about their plantar warts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 12:10 AM

It would be nice if anonymous complainers and those who are honest about whom they are, i.e. Dale Rose, would join everyone in HearMe. They might get an idea of how much the community does mean to music and music to the community. On any given night, one can usually find a fair sampling of Mudcatters from around the globe, sharing their love and knowledge of music, without the type of rancour and nasty, holier-than-thou backstabbing we see in the threads.

I am reminded of a gentleman who came in one night and heard several of us. He pointed out that he was just amazed at how hearing us, our actual voices, really changed his perception of some us and that it was a quite pleasant surprise.

It is a new level which seems to encourage the positiveness in a better way than the threads. So, if you really care about the music AND are sincere about sharing it and making the Mudcat what you want it to be, please consider joining in and sing a song or two.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM

Well, Guest, despite your brilliant analysis to the contrary, I actually have given this a great deal of thought. I have, in fact, come to the conclusion that many are compulsive posters. Some of these are people that I think a great deal of, so I just don't go into threads that look to me to be not productive for me. I didn't just dismiss Dale Rose, I offered an observation that he has been around long enough to understand that he should just stay with threads that have no interest to him. The fatal flaw in your campaign is that you seek to make the Mudcat into what you want it to be. Instead, IMHO, you need to accept it for what it is, and then make a value judgement as to its worth to you. If it doesn't suit your needs, then you should seek out a place that does. And to those that choose to do that, bless you. But spare us the parting "I'm outta here" comments. In my opinion, those are self serving sound bites designed to elicit sympathy (in one case that happened), or to massage some kind of "I showed them" need. It is easy. If you don't like WHAT IT IS, then seek out a place that you feel better in. The nice thing about this place is that you can contribute in any way that you choose.

A couple of more observations/comments, nameless one. I am truly sorry that you find me smug. Were you and I to meet, you would find that is not the case. If you have taken offense at the tone of some of my posts then please accept my sincerest apologies. With regard to your comment which lumped me into a category as a "non-musical", I would suggest you do a bit of checking. You will find that I have posted many lyrics in the threads, answered many requests which often meant searching out some recording and transcribing the lyric. Some "musical people" sing a lyric, and can capture a moment. Some of us sing the songs because we understand, or seek to understand what societal circumstances spawned that music. It allows us to sing, and tell the yarn with conviction. That is why I enjoy the discussions. And I must tell you that I also love the interaction with my fellow folkies......the witty repartee, the arguments, the whole bit. Sorry if you see people like Rick Fielding, Art Thieme, Sandy Paton, Animaterra, Willie-O, Peter T., and yes, even meself as nonmusical. You see, all of those folks have taken part in that which you profess to abhor. And not just a little bit. There are many others.

I wish you well, and I will say no more on this thread.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 11:16 PM

The majority of people posting answers to questions are not the same ones who chat about nothing and compulsively post, Mick. You are wrong! It's not the number of threads to count, but the number of posts to count to see that the forum is mostly inane idle chatter, insider jokes, ego massaging, and self-righteous insistence that only a certain small number of in-folks are right about what is happening at the forum.
Many of us have said this over and over and you non-musical discussants are just not listening. Moreover, you don't see your own part in causing hard feelings, angry retorts, and the decampment of many interesting folks.
Your smug dismissal and arrogant patronization of Dale Rose is one example of what I refer to when documenting the decline of the forum. Shame on you Mick. I thought you were smarter than that!
The argument that one should ignore these threads is just smoke screening the issue which is being repeatedly brought up. The forum has degenerated into a chat-room with genuine musical discussion at about a quarter of the posts.
As for your notion that the forum is a community, I would say that it a small group of people who massage each other's egos, make in jokes, and otherwise cut up. In a real community meeting people would listen to these criticisms and carefully consider their merit. And the individuals who wield power through mythic personas and charisma, should take much more responsibility for making this a music forum. I for one am a long time participant who has given up and gone guest to get out of the "cult of personality" and to reconsider the amount of input I offer. The forum isn't fun anymore to alot of us Mick. Why won't you listen and think about why this might be true???


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,Rump-a-long-a-stilskin
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 08:10 PM

MISSING YOU ALREADY!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:51 PM

Hi Dale,

Interesting points to consider. I did log on to get a music question answered, and it has been answered quite satisfactorily. Then I began wondering about some of the other stuff I saw on the screen, and responded to it.

I think your point is reasonably well taken. On the other hand, there is always a certain method to my madness. All of life is art. Not some of it, all of it. It can seem joyful or miserable or wonderful or tragic, but it's all art. How we see life is what we get.

I won't be around to bug you for at least a week, so rest easy. I will be playing music somewhere in the endless fields of life...way down south in the islands.

Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Dale Rose
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:45 PM

Well, Mick, I think you are wrong, so let's just say we agree to disagree. As for me, I am gone. Goodbye. And I will "lighten up" on my own terms, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:42 PM

Dale, the majority of people who answer questions are the same ones posting "witty comebacks and insults, political agendas" and the such. Why is it so hard for people like you to understand that this isn't just a repository of lyrics? As long as you have been around, I should think you would have read more than a few threads that spoke to issues that spawn the music, as well as plenty of music threads. Don't you see that it went from a music only site to a community? And finally, why do you insist on continuing to go into threads that don't interest you for no other reason than to complain? Just pass by them, Friend Rose. And start a ton of threads that interest you. Not for the purpose of making a point, but rather because they would have interest.

In short,........lighten up.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Dale Rose
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM

Little Hawk, perhaps you should read the info in the Mudcat FAQ, Newcomer's Guide ~~ THIS IS NOT A CHAT ROOM! OR AT LEAST IT WASN'T UNTIL A YEAR OR SO AGO WHEN A GROUP OF POSTERS DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD TURN IT INTO ONE. I THINK IT IS CLEAR THAT WE ARE ALL REAPING THE "HARVEST" OF THAT SOWING NOW. MUSIC IS NOT WHAT IT IS ABOUT ANYMORE ~~ it is about idle chatter, "witty" comebacks and insults, political agendas, just about everything BUT music. The musical aspects are being drowned out in an absolute cacophony of drivel.

Here I am posing a rhetorical question ~~ what will The Mudcat be when the majority of those who take the time to answer questions leave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:32 PM

That's what they all say... you start by saying you're just here out of curiosity, you think you can quit any time... then before you know it you wrench your haggard face from the screen and realize that days have passed... your family has left you ... your home is a wreck... why aren't most Mudcatters musicians?
They were, my friend, they were- until the Mudcat got 'em! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:26 PM

Hey, by God, Hardiman, good to hear from you. I play the guitar and harmonica together a la Bob Dylan. I write original songs on almost every them imaginable. I am a folksinger's folksinger, I kid you not (to quote Captain Queeg). But OOPS, I didn't actually start this thread, I just jumped into it somewhere along the way, so I guess you weren't actually addressing me, were you? Oh well...I did start the "Why are most mudcatters human" thread, but there was a certain satirical purpose behind that question which I hope has not escaped its readers. You know, I am beginning to wonder myself why I am sitting here wasting time. I almost never do this. I guess it's just plain curiosity, and it's fun. I am planning to tear myself away from the keyboard at any moment and rejoin the real world.

Cheers,

LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Hardiman the Fiddler
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:15 PM

May I respectfully ask the gentle person who started this tread, what instrument does he/she play, and why pray tell, isn't he playing it instead of wasting time on the computer? With a grin,

Hardiman the Fiddler


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:10 PM

Poor old rump-along-a-stilskin definitely needs a shot of good humour. You're not even a member. What are you complaining about? If you don't like it, you can always do something else. By the way, it's "stiltskin" isn't it? I mean, normally, that is...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:50 PM

I dunno, but I wish people would stop creating these inane threads and find answers to a lot of questions that have gone unanswered.
Little Hawk just joined us, and he and I are feverishly working to find the roots of No Nos Moveran (click), the Spanish version of "We Shall Not Be Moved." If you've got an answer for us, please stop in.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:42 PM

Oh boy! More fun... I am a mudcatter and I am a musician. I have only been a mudcatter for about 6 minutes, but I don't think that is really a problem. I spend plenty of time playing music, and have only once been on a chat line prior to today and yesterday. I am what I am because that is what I am. Why don't I shut up? Because, like you, I like to express myself. I will, of course, shut up just as soon as I decide not to bother doing this any longer...which could be anytime soon...okay?


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Subject: Why aren't most Mudcatters musicians
From: GUEST,Rump-a-long-a-stilskin
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM

And instead are chatters?

Why are you this?, Why are you that?

WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP?


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 17 September 9:39 AM EDT

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