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SeriousBS: Elian2

McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 00 - 03:54 PM
Rick Fielding 22 Apr 00 - 04:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 00 - 04:28 PM
Banjer 22 Apr 00 - 05:36 PM
wysiwyg 22 Apr 00 - 05:53 PM
Lonesome EJ 22 Apr 00 - 05:55 PM
kendall 22 Apr 00 - 06:48 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 22 Apr 00 - 07:21 PM
Irish sergeant 22 Apr 00 - 07:23 PM
Rick Fielding 22 Apr 00 - 10:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 00 - 09:25 AM
Banjer 23 Apr 00 - 09:25 AM
kendall 23 Apr 00 - 11:47 AM
Rick Fielding 23 Apr 00 - 11:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 00 - 11:56 AM
Art Thieme 23 Apr 00 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,bob S. 23 Apr 00 - 04:12 PM
Victoria H. 23 Apr 00 - 10:57 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 23 Apr 00 - 11:34 PM
Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) 23 Apr 00 - 11:58 PM
Whistle Stop 24 Apr 00 - 09:04 AM
Whistle Stop 24 Apr 00 - 09:06 AM
Rick Fielding 24 Apr 00 - 11:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 00 - 01:04 PM
Whistle Stop 24 Apr 00 - 01:33 PM
katlaughing 24 Apr 00 - 02:03 PM
Mbo 24 Apr 00 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Jack (who is called Jack) 24 Apr 00 - 02:42 PM
Rick Fielding 24 Apr 00 - 02:47 PM
Lonesome EJ 24 Apr 00 - 02:50 PM
Whistle Stop 24 Apr 00 - 02:53 PM
Quixote 24 Apr 00 - 03:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 00 - 07:57 PM
Áine 24 Apr 00 - 08:23 PM
katlaughing 24 Apr 00 - 08:44 PM
catspaw49 24 Apr 00 - 08:51 PM
Lonesome EJ 24 Apr 00 - 08:53 PM
Cara 24 Apr 00 - 09:18 PM
Petr 24 Apr 00 - 09:34 PM
SDShad 24 Apr 00 - 09:49 PM
Sorcha 24 Apr 00 - 09:55 PM
SDShad 24 Apr 00 - 10:01 PM
Amergin 24 Apr 00 - 10:02 PM
Greg F. 25 Apr 00 - 07:34 AM
GeorgeH 25 Apr 00 - 08:15 AM
Sailor Dan 25 Apr 00 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Franz 25 Apr 00 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,James 25 Apr 00 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Kim C 25 Apr 00 - 09:57 AM
Sailor Dan 25 Apr 00 - 10:02 AM
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Subject: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:54 PM

The Elian thread looks likely to grow fast tonight, so I felt a second volume might be helpful.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 04:20 PM

Good idea McGrath, but with all the Flag wavin', commie bashin', Castro mashin', Reno trashin' (at least nobody's called her a "Bubba Lovin' Diesel Dyke" yet) I think the volume's already been turned up to 11!

Just found out last night from CNN, that as a prosecutor her strong suit was gettin' the death penalty for a LOTTA bad guys. Seems funny for her now to be "the liberal that everyone loves to hate"! (and before anyone says "I don't hate her, etc."...it's just a joke....because surely No one here thinks that ANYBODY involved in this charade has acted honourably)

Al Gore has lied, John McCain and "Dubya" have most probably lied. Castro has turned it into a media circus, CNN has gotten "OJ" type ratings. "Bubba" has shown NO leadership, and most sadly, not ONE of the TV interviewees has demonstrated that they ACTUALLY care about the kid. He is simply the poster boy for the Left-Right debate.

Rick


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 04:28 PM

"Surely no one here thinks that ANYBODY involved in this charade has acted honourably"

Maybe Juan Gonzalez?


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:36 PM

Lonesome, you said in the last thread that Elians Miami relatives 'put him in the line of fire'...He was plucked out the water, and the only relatives available were his folks in Miami. They know better than any of us what life in Cuba is like, they probably know a lot more of the background of his father and wanted what in their estimation was best for Elian, a life in a free country... (after this morning I'm not sure that 'free country' isn't a contradiction of terms). Janet Reno sends in the goon squad and you say his relatives put him in the line of fire? Unless you consider Janet Reno a relative, that is a wrong statement. Land Of The Free my ass!!!!

They are lucky it wasn't MY house they stormed, they would have carried out more than just a kid.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:53 PM

O Elian, where are you, my child?
O Elian, where are you.... ?
Your childhood gone, swept beneath the sea,
Elian, can you forgive me?

O Elian, where are you, my child?
O Elian, where are you.... ?
Your face, a poster in every crowd,
Elian, your mama weeps aloud.

O Elian, where are you, my child?
O Elian, where are you.... ?
Your life belongs to a world gone mad
Elian, your mama is so sad.

O Elian, where are you, my child?
O Elian, where are you.... ?
O Elian, precious Elian,
Elian, can you forgive me?


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:55 PM

Banjer, I don't like it any more than you do that the kid had to be taken by force. The fact is, the Miami relatives brought on the situation due to two reasons: 1) Their basic obstinacy and willingness to flaunt their disobedience to rulings by the American Courts that were not in their favor and 2) Their enjoyment of being in the media spotlight, for personal gratification, the supposed advancement of their cause, what have you.

Several arrangements were made by the Court and agreed to by the parties holding Elian, only to have them disregarded and denied by the family at the last minute. In my opinion, the full responsibility for the manner in which Elian was captured lies squarely on the shoulders of the Miami relatives.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 06:48 PM

Right on. This is a country of laws, not emotions. This is not a bannana republic that operates on the feelings of the day. Reno did the right thing...FINALLY. Consider the fact that in spite of the tension, no one was hurt, the law was up held, and the kid is where he belongs. Banjer, where was your indignation when the "relatives" tried to take away a man's son? Now, if he would just decide to stay here...


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 07:21 PM

If you saw the editorial in the NY Times, I think on Friday, it basically called Reno a chicken, because she wouldn't do what had to be done, an now she is a villain for doing the same thing--

I watched the TV and saw people setting fire to things, and I thought, how did the cameras know to be there? Of course I am just kidding, because I know exactly how they knew--

I think that they could have been a bit more elegant about going into the house, but what do you want--

Meanwhile, Lazaro(multiple DWI convictions) and Marislysis (is that how to spell her name? and how do you even say it) are here now--except that now Janet Reno gets to jerk them around--I can't wait!!


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 07:23 PM

Hi Kevin and all; I replied to a similar thread earlier. I don't necessarily trust the US government all the time but Reno finally made the right call. This isn't about Castro or Bubba. To boil it down I will repeat what I stated earlier in the other thread. If the situation was reversed and the Child and father had been American, this situation would not have arisen because he would have been returned post haste. Check the child custody laws of Florida. It is a great shame that this child was used as a pawn by everybody except the one person he should have been with: his father, reguards to all and have a happy Easter, Neil PS Kevin, if you could send guitar chords for A Soldier's Lament too, I would greatly appreciate it, Neil


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:27 PM

Touche McGrath....but I'm not sure he's acting INDEPENDANTLY. One source says he gave his blessing to the flight in the first place.

Rick


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 09:25 AM

I was looking at the pictures of Elian back with his father, and I started wondering what his Miami family had told him when he asked why his father hadn't come to get him? I can't imagine it could have been the truth - "We won't let him come because he'd take you back home with him."


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Banjer
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 09:25 AM

A real caring father to allow his son to be put through such an ordeal. Why didn't HE go to Miami to see his son? No, Janet Reno's actions cannot be justified in my estimation. I just hope she isn't dumb enough to try to go to Miami herself. Then we'll see some action...That I will support!!


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:47 AM

I think its obvious why he didn't go to Miami himself.. the powers that be wouldn't allow it. And, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what would have happened to him if he had. Now, if Cuba is as bad as our government says it is, Jaun will stay here. Did you notice the choice of photos on the front page? Yup, the one with the Marshal pointing a rifle at the fisherman who was holding Elian. Buried in the back section was the one with Elian smiling in his fathers arms. The news media are like crows, they will feed on this carcass as long as there is a piece to make a sensation out of.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:56 AM

Kendall, I think Sandy and Art will have to relinquish their roles as objective curmudgeons around here. It's us, guy. Lotsa "subjective curmudgeons" though.

Folks, if you want to understand the "Elian thing" better, rent a few of the "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister" shows. You'll see political hypocracy at it's best. "Wag the Dog" ain't bad either.

Rick


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:56 AM

Being in Miami for Elian meant he was effectively imprisoned by a media circus and a highly excited and volatile crowd. Where he is now he's with his own family, in a place where he can have a bit of peace and quiet. And he's not leaving the States until the courts have made their final decision.

And why did all this happen? Because people with political agendas want to use the child as a weapon to strike back against a government in Cuba that they don't like.

I've heard no evidence that Elian's father isn't a perfectly good father. As I understand it, Elian was in his custody back in Cuba to begin with.If he decides he'd sooner bring him up in Cuba than in America, that's his right to decide, and it doesn't seem in any way an irrational decision. I can't see any grounds for anyone to say that he is not the person to decide what is best for his child.

Just imagine a situation where Elian had been living with his father in Miami, and his estranged wife had being taking him to some other country, and been killed, and the people were saying "No he musn't go back to that terrible place where they have massacres in schools every couple of weeks", and so forth.

Thee's been too much outside interference in the personal affairs of this family already.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:31 PM

I'm starting a rock band called "Einstein And The Miami Relatives" (get it ??) I think it'd be a gas (tear).

Anybody care to join ?

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,bob S.
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 04:12 PM

What paper(s) are you talking about,Kendall. Both of the ones I get (Tampa Trib & Lakeland Ldger) had both Pix on page 1.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Victoria H.
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 10:57 PM

I agree with many of the folks posting here, in that the tragedy is with the child.... this nightmare he's been living in, is no fault of his own, and to use him as a pawn for a political agenda (ANY political agenda) is unconscionable. (And 'Praise', I thought the lines you wrote above were beautiful. . . ) I pray now only for the healing of his family and his memories.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:34 PM

For those of you who enjoy television, you have had a chance to see the father and son, if only for a few moments? Would anyone advocate take him away from the father and giving him back the the Uncle and his crew?

Does anyone besides me think that Elian was rescued?


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:58 PM

IMHO liberate cuba now and send them all back! Bill Clinton first....

all children now have a new boogy woman.... Janet Reno and her shock troops.

let the justice department follow through and rip every child not faithfully exchanged between joint custody parents per agreements from their parents.

Maybe the next step is to gun down deadbeat moms and dads.

there should be a few bedtime stories and songs about this!

Little baby elian waiting out the clock In comes Janet Reno with a great big shock

Where was our congress when the boy was in the net? Hanging round with Clinton and the cigar smokin set.

Man in the sea was drowning knew not how to swim Toss him Janet Reno and he'll not come up again!

One day in the middle of the night clinton and reno got up to fight. One Vp to shout fair play one demon dictator for the family way. back to back they faced each other screwed the law as well as the mother

Conrad Bladey April 23/ 2000

Conrad


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:04 AM

M.Ted, I agree with you -- Elian was rescued, and I'm very pleased that it was finally done. President Clinton and Attorney General Reno have acted with a great deal of restraint during this whole long ordeal -- too much restraint, perhaps, but I think it is a real stretch to say that they acted precipitously or without due regard for the rights of the Miami relatives.

Regarding the armed nature of the rescue, that was the only way to do it. Guns aren't pretty to look at, and I'm sure that the Attorney General and everyone else involved in this mission knew that they'd be looking at some dramatic pictures in the next day's papers. But if they had gone in unarmed, and there had been resistance, a lot of people could have been hurt, and the situation could have spiraled out of control very quickly. The first job of law enforcement people in a situation like that is to make sure they have the necessary tools, and the presence, that will dissuade anyone from resisting. If that sounds totalitarian, so be it -- once a decision is made to mount an operation like this, there's no excuse for doing it unprofessionally. I think it was very skillfully executed, and all of the INS and law enforcement peple involved deserve a lot of credit.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:06 AM

I alsu agree with McGrath -- Juan Gonzalez has acted honorobly throughout this whole thing, notwithstanding the incredible distress and frustration this must be causing him. I can't imagine how I would act under these circumstances.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 11:30 AM

The newest stuff in the paper is that the "happy Elian" picture with Dad has been faked. Apparently while in Miami, he had blues eyes, was bald and wore a monicle...in Washington, he's depicted as looking like MacCauley Culkin and missing 3 fingers. Something stinks here!

Oh well, I always KNEW that picture of Lee Harvey Oswald (with the gun) was a forgery!

Rick


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:04 PM

When are the movies due to come out? Mind, a snatch squad with Arnold Schwarzenegger or whoever going in to pick up a child, and noone gets shot or seriously injured, and not even a single round fired? Just couldn't have it that way in a movie version. They'll have to adjust the plot a bit to make it credible.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:33 PM

My predictions for the movie version: Janet Reno will be played by Kathy Bates, Marisleysis will be played by Cameron Diaz, Juan Gonzales will be played by Antonio Banderas. I'm not sure about Arnold as the lead commando -- I'm thinking Bruce Willis. There will be a cameo by Marisa Tomei as Elian's mother (who returns to the child in a vision immediately before the door gets broken in by the feds). Another supporting role for Catherine Zeta-Jones, because she already played a Latin in Zorro, and she's just too beautiful NOT to include in the cast. If Anthony Quinn were still around, he could play Castro; but he's not, so I guess we'll have to bring Anthony Hopkins back for one more shot as a psychopathic genius (so there will be support for the subplot which has Castro trying to bribe Clinton with a box of fine Cuban cigars). The soundtrack album will lead off with a power ballad by Aerosmith. Remember, you heard it here first.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:03 PM

The whole thing took all of 3 minutes. The extendedfamily, whom I would imagine Elian had never met until plucked from the sea, had more than 3 months of negotiations in which to reach a compromise. There were published reports which quoted American vetereans who said they were protecting the family's home, with weapons, and would give their lives to keep Elian there.

What the hell else was our government to do; let the family lead them around by a nose ring for another upteen months, while they milk the publicity for all it's worth and disregard the laws of their adopted country?

Now, what poor unfortunate child star will be tapped for the role of elian!?


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Mbo
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:04 PM

Hey, I saw those pictures on TV, and take it from someone who knows a thing or two about computer art programs--it looked like a Photoshop job to me!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:42 PM

To my mind this is no different than if a mother with a child joined a cult, died while a member, and then the cult refused the surviving father's request for custody.

I frankly have grown sick of the Miami Cuban's using our country as a base for their ongoing conflict with Castro. I'm tired of their provocations and violations of Cuban airspace, their constant whining insistence on a hard-line foreign policy and the embargo that has succeeded in every way but in its intended effect.

I'm tired of their perpetuation a 'lukewarm' war, and pathological inablity to admit that everything substantial in this conflict has been long decided.

Its long past the time to admit that Castro has won the struggle for power in Cuba. He will be the Dictator there until he dies or grows too old to rule. Nothing is going to change that. Neither his people, the expatriates in Florida, nor the US government have the resources or the will to bring him down.

It is also long past time to recognize that in the end Castro has lost the war. His soviet patron has collapsed. His ideas are hollow rhetoric. He poses no threat, leads no movement, and holds out no promise. The world has left him behind. The ultimate expression of this is the fact that for all his bluster, this entire case rested on the expressed wishes of the father, not Fidel.

Castro underestimated the willingness of the US to keep Cuba in a state of economic privation (a policy which at this point is sustained out of personal spite and habit, not any real expectation that it will have any effect). The United States underestimated his ability to stand up to them. The irony is that while the principle fear of each party has always been that the other was a threat to their exsistence, in the end both Castro and the United States are the only things unscathed.

We tend to confuse the idea of democracy and the rule of law with the 18th century ideas of 'The Rights of Man'. And in spite of their natural affinity they really are two different things. Demoracy at its heart is a philosophy of conflict--a social contract on how to behave in victory and in defeat. In democracy we give up absolute victory or defeat in exchange for the right of perpetual participation. That means that winners don't get to round up thier opponents and outlaw their parties. It also means that the losers don't turn around and refuse to accept the outcome. The latter is exactly what the Miami Cubans tried to do. In spite of their pathetic attempts at spin doctoring, their sole goal was the subversion of the democratically determined authority of the INS. For the Cuban expatriate friends who are a little slow on the uptake, that means that the jurisdiction of the INS in this matter was determined in advance by our popularly elected government in excersise of its constitutional duty. I haven't read the exact federal code on this, and I'm no constitutional scholar, but I'll bet a year's salary that the law giving the INS is jurisdiction in this affair doesn't include a codicil that reads 'unless it offends the expatriate cubans in Miami'.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:47 PM

It will come as quite a shock to Anthony Quinn if he is (as I think) still very much ALIVE. He was advertised as a future guest on Larry King.

Rick


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:50 PM

Well stated, Jack.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:53 PM

Perhaps he just looks dead? Sorry, if Mr. Quinn is still alive, I have done him a grave disservice (pun intended). He can play Castro -- I'm sure there is at least one other psycho character in this little drama for Anthony Hopkins to play.

For Elian, I nominate the star of the (American) TV show Malcolm In The Middle -- I don't know the kid's name, but he could play the role with an appropriate sense of irony.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Quixote
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 03:22 PM

I for one think the right thing has been done. Elian deserves to be with his father not with the fishermen. Ironic isn't it how the men that plucked him from the water said it was like losing a child. I wonder if they thought that statement through? From the pictures, which were recieved by the AP undeveloped and published in my local (Seattle) paper, Elian seems happy to be reunited with his father.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 07:57 PM

Can't see why there's anything more psychopathic about Fidel Castro than most other heads of state or heads of government.

Of course that list would in fact include a fair number of psychopaths, but I can't see that the Bearded Bogeyman with would be one of these. "Ruthless bastard", maybe (but then you don't survive long in that job if you aren't, whether you're in Havana, Washington or London), but "psychopath" - just doesn't seem to fit. Just because yiu don't like someone doesn't mean they are mad.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Áine
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:23 PM

Where are the protesters with their pickets when six children are gunned down outside of our National Zoo, caught in the crossfire of warring gangs?

Where are the news cameras when another baby is found dead in a trash can?

Where are the politicians when another crack addicted baby is born in one of hospitals?

Where are the breast-beating religious fanatics when another teenage runaway dies alone in the gutter?

Where are the riots when another child is abused and maimed for life?

Where are the calls for senate hearings when another child goes to bed crying in hunger?

Where is international concern when another child is victimized by a child pornographer?

Where are the streets full of enraged college students when another child is killed by another child?

Where? Where? Where?


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:44 PM

Thank you, Aine.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:51 PM

Yeah.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:53 PM

Castro is not a monster. What he is, is a disgrace to the cause of freedom he espoused when he was merely a revoutionary trying to overthrow the wretched and repressive and corrupt Batista regime. I don't condemn him for being a Communist: I condemn him for becoming what he most despised, and for betraying his people. I believe that he was once a man of principle when he was in the bush with Guevara. Che remained a man of principle until he was killed in Mexico. Fidel stayed on to become a complete Fascist Dictator, in the name of fear, and to hold his own people prisoner. Perhaps he thought it was the only way to keep the specter of the enormous power of the United States at bay in the beginning, but the time long passed when the rule of the people should have been instituted in Cuba. For betraying his own principles, his friends, his people, and his revolution, Fidel should have a special spot in Hell.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Cara
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:18 PM

I'd like to add my voice to those that support the actions of the INS and the Justice Dept. They did what they were forced to do by those wacko Miami relatives, and any blame for the trauma that little boy has suffered belongs solely to them. The U.S. policy toward Cuba is hypocritical, even though it seems to be motivated by sincere emotions on the part of Cuban exiles here in the U.S. We're so concerned about human rights abuses in Cuba, yet we are going to normalize trade relations with China. Puh-leeze.

The Picture horrified me as well; it literally took my breath away when I saw it on Saturday. But how many of those protestors threatened bloodshed if Elian was taken? What were they supposed to do, try to negotiate further with those crazed, intransigent scofflaws that make up the Miami Gonzalez contingency? They used that boy as a symbol, and manipulated and used him every second he was with them. Getting him out of there as soon as possible was the best thing for his mental health.

I would like to see Juan Miguel decide to stay here and bring up his sons, but is it any wonder he doesn't want to after all this? And especially now; he's staying in an area where 6 kids--KIDS--were shot at the zoo. Cardenas probably seems more desirable than ever to him now.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Petr
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:34 PM

I dont know if its already been mentioned as I havent read the previous threads but I think that maybe the dead mothers wishes should have been respected. We know one thing, that she wished him freedom. Werent his parents separated and the father living with another woman. We dont really know if the guy was abusive. As for Castro demanding that he be returned, he had no problem sending hardened criminals to the US in the early 80s. just to get rid of them. Petr


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: SDShad
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:49 PM

"We dont really know if the guy was abusive." Boy, that's the old "innocent until proven guilty" dictum in action, huh?

Sorry if that seems a little sharp, Petr. But that's kind of a potshot at the guy. He's not Castro, and it's not "separated" and "living with." It's "divorced," and "remarried." My own father is divorced and remarried, so those are choices I've got to respect. Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, I'm not close to %100 certain, because after a certain point I do kind of filter out these media orgies), but didn't Juan Gonzalez have custody of Elian in Cuba? If that fact doesn't even enter into the equation, then we are disrespecting the integity of Cuban families because we (rightly) don't like the regime under which they live.

And I just can't bring myself to go along with that, especially not for the sake of mere ideology.

Chris


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:55 PM

Well, I don't know that she wished that, Ptr, seems like she stole him and put him on a leaky boat to go see her boyfriend. I guess I have changed my mind about the whole thing, and I know the Rels were in violatoin of court orders and law in 2 countries, but why did Miss Janet decide that a pre-dawn raid with assault weapons was in order? Like I said earlier, children are removed from homes every day without assalult weapons,I am still not sure why the extreme force was necessary.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: SDShad
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:01 PM

I see your point, Sorcha, but most custodial removals, heck most INS removals, aren't done in the face of angry throngs where civil unrest and bloodshed--political violence, essentially--has been explicitly warned.

Not that threats of bloodshed at a more personal level doesn't often happen in custody cases. It does. But in those cases, the use of firearms to prevent armed resistance to the custody order is justified as well. I hate that this is how the kid was taken too, but I don't hate one bit that he was taken.

Chris


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:02 PM

Good point, Lonesome EJ, about Castro being the worst form of traitor, traitor to his ideals, traitor to his country, traitor to his people. If Dante were alive I'm sure he would have written a suitable punishment for him. BTW where was all the news coverage when the McAleister family tried to seek asylum? I can tell you the news crows weren't all that interested because they (the McAleisters) were fleeing paramilitaries of a good, decent, capitalistic country that just happened to be an ally of our government. Has their case been resolved yet?

Amergin


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:34 AM

Just curious if any of the folks above hurling invective at Castro (not that I am a Castro apologist by any means) have ever done any reading in Cuban history after the Spanish-American War: The Platt Ammendment, the Machado and Batista dictatorships propped up by US corporations, the poverty and human rights abuses Cubans were subjected to long before Fidel, etc. Might change their perspective- or at least their rhetoric- a bit.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GeorgeH
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:15 AM

Let me ask those who oppose the INS action a simple question - do you believe that US Citizens have a right to expect the "law enforcement agencies" NOT to enforce the decisions of the US courts?

Now I'd never deny that there are good laws and bad laws, good legal decisions and bad ones. And there are times when I have praised those who have acted in defiance of bad laws or bad decisions. But those doing so must expect to be punished under the law (that's why they often earn my admiration even where I don't agree with them).

I cannot see how ANYONE can have any logical gripe about the INS enforcing the decision of the court. And it seems to me they did so in a highly effective manner, with the minimum trauma to Elian.

G.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:26 AM

I normally dont join in threads, especially of a political nature, but being a NON-CUBAN resident of Miami I of course have opinions about the Elian controversy. My wife and I disagree in our feelings about the controversy. We both feel we want the best for Elian.

The difference in our feelings is, She feels the boy should go back to the father, I feel that he should stay here in the states. The best thing would be for him to be returned to his father and his father and his family should remain in the USA making peace with his relatives in Miami. But that is as far fetched as Castro letting Cuba be a Democratic country.

The majority of Cuban people in Miami are a group of people who have suffered directly at the hands of Fidel. Not hearsay suffering but directly personal suffering. My "adopted" daughter and her family ran from Castro's treatment of the people.

No I dont agree with what the "children" running amok in the streets are doing, But there is no way in hell that I could condone the use of armed force force to take a child, no matter what. Janet Reno and the INS have lowered us to the tactics used by Hitler, Stalin, Castro and the rest of the dictators of this world.

They said Reno has walked the extra mile in the negotiations. I am sorry, she should have walked two to three extra miles to achieve a quiet peaceful transfer. She should have had the brains to outthink them rather then muscle them. REno says she has the Law on her side. Yes she does have the written law, but she doesn't have the law of common decency NOT to lower us to the dregs of garbage.

I sit here and listen to people of different enthnic cultures voicing their opinions against the passions of the Cuban people for their actions. I dont see a condemnation of the Blacks for standing up for their beliefs, nor of us that are Irish that have been standing off the English in conflict for 450 years, or the Jewish people for standing off the Arabs for their homeland, the Canadians in Montreal who won't speak English only French.

Condemnation of a group of people without walking a mile in their shoes is totally wrong. AFter all Jesus Christ was the one who said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I am not casting any stones at anyone,but like the rest of us I too have an opinion and I feel that a little bit of tolerance for other peoples passions should be given. WE should not listen entirely to what the idiots in the Media put out to sell papers.

My apologies if I have stepped on anyones toes or egos. I just felt it necessary to voice MY opinion. IF any one wants to take me to task my email is danhealy@prodigy.net. Please feel free to use it.

By the way Mudcat is a great place to be and event though I ride in the background, I enjoy and learn a lot from some very knowledgeable people, about many subjects


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,Franz
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:57 AM

Dan, it is by all means ridiculous to compare Castro (let alone Janet Reno) to Hitler or Stalin. Cool down, have a beer, and if this doesn't help: read a history book. The way I see it it is the right of the parents to bring up their children in whatever way it pleases them as long as they don't harm them, and it is the job of politicians to make this possible. Which is what Reno did. And from what little I hear over here in Germany, nobody in his right mind would have gone in there unarmed. And the guys in Miami who complain that it is unfair to send the kid back to a life in poverty should pick up a dictionary and look up the word hypocrite. Not that it will help much ...

franz


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,James
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:08 AM

What is this Paranoia Americans have about Cuba....Send the boy and his Father Home...CNN will find something else to blow out of proportion.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:57 AM

I'm with Aine. There are so many other things going on.


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Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 10:02 AM

I really did get caught up in the writing, but no that I am cooler, the things that really bother me are,

1. The family did request that nothing happen during Holy Week. Yes it may have been a delaying tactic, But after all it was Holy Week.

2. Being a Great Grandfather, I still feel that Janet Reno DID NOT walk far enough. Yes the negotiations did drag on, but so do Union contract negotiations. Reno had to act to prove that her word was law. So did all the other dicatators in thisj world. It just proved that she is lacking in sufficient negotiation skills and brains.

3. You don't do this type of thing while negotiating on the telephone to Highly Respected Business men and important individuals in the Cuban American community.

4. Then of course we have Bubba Clinton. Well enough said about him.

5. The Media, whom I dislike intensely for the deliberate coloring of the facts for sensationalism are in my opinion the next to the biggest lying SOB's around. They stand an extremely close second to the Politicians. These two groups have done more harm to the American Image then all the Cubans rioters who just happen to be an extremely small part of the Cuban American community. That bearded idiot 90 miles of the coast will be the big winner when all is said and done.


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