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Alcoholism

Jon Freeman 26 Apr 00 - 02:00 PM
Willie-O 26 Apr 00 - 05:55 PM
Jeri 26 Apr 00 - 09:17 PM
alison 26 Apr 00 - 09:39 PM
John in Brisbane 26 Apr 00 - 10:28 PM
Frankham 26 Apr 00 - 11:24 PM
Jon Freeman 27 Apr 00 - 12:05 AM
Hyperabid 27 Apr 00 - 04:32 AM
Frankham 27 Apr 00 - 08:38 AM
Jon Freeman 27 Apr 00 - 09:24 AM
GUEST, Threadie 27 Apr 00 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,small threadie 27 Apr 00 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,kat/katlaughing 27 Apr 00 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,TonyK 30 Apr 00 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,toad 30 Apr 00 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Michelle in New York 01 May 00 - 01:43 PM
Frankham 01 May 00 - 06:03 PM
Jon Freeman 01 May 00 - 06:27 PM
GUEST, Threadie 01 May 00 - 09:10 PM
Gypsy 02 May 00 - 12:20 AM
GUEST, Threadie 02 May 00 - 12:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 02:00 PM

Alcoholics should be credited for:

1. Child and wife abuse

Even female alcholics? Besides that child and wife abusers should take the credit for what they do regardless of whether they are alcoholics or not.

2. Reckless and dangerous driving habits DUI

True, it is hard not to drive under the influence without a drink but you don't have to be an alcholoic to drink and drive on the other hand I am an alcholohic but I don't drive through choice.

3. Insulting demeanor and behavior to others

OK Frank, I not had a drink today and I think you are talking through your arse. I often post here after 8 or more pints without being insulting. Again, it is a persons nature that makes them behave as they do after drink, not the drink or any part of an alchololic condition.

4. Irresponsible public displays

Drunks may put on these displays but Frank, alcholosim is a condition, people like myself just keep topping up all day. It is more a matter of keeping a certain amount of alcholol on the blood stream than getting drunk. I can think of many non-alcholics who are far more likely to do something irresponsible after a few drinks that I would be.

5. If performers, blatant disregard for the audience

I have occasionally done paid work, oddly enough I have always rehearsed, turned up on time and in a fit condition to play. i wish I could say the same for some of my non-alcholic partners. Again Frank, you are talking about something you know nothing about and you are trying to define a persons nature by the fact they drink.

6. Instigating barroom brawls

Well Frank, in around 25 years of drinking in bars, I have never instegated a fight and I have only got involved on a couple of occasions. On these occasions, it has been to help split a fight up rather than to join in. I will admit that the majority of fights I have witnesed have been caused by somebody under the influence of some substance or other but in my experience, they are normally caused by kids who can't handle what ever they are taking rather than by hardened alchoholics.

7. Disregard for the feelings of other people

Like I say Frank... no I won't this time.

8. Corrupting and degrading influences on others

What are you on Frank?

9. Self-destructive personal habits

Agreed.

10. Occasional dissheveled appearance

Agreed.

11. Prevarication and dissembling

Maybe - maybe not.

12. Supporting the alcohol industry = organized crime

Please explain.

13. Advocating a gateway drug

Or getting caught up addicted to a substance that has been legal all my like. Perhaps you should point you finger somewhere other than at the victims Frank.

14. Working in tandem with tobacco users

I smoke tobacc but I don't see what you are getting at.

15. Fostering the myth that alcohol is good for you.

I believe it is in SMALL doses but not to excess.

16. Fostering the myth that good works can't be done without it.

I've never heard that said from any alchoholic I know. Where did you get that myth from Frank?

Jon


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 05:55 PM

I stand firmly with the Middle Ground guest!

It's funny how this topic brings out extremes--it's kind of like the blind man describing the elephant I guess, except that everyone seems a lot more certain about their perspective. But prohibitionist sentiment has had a huge influence on the way we view the problem, when it is a problem. And that ain't necessarily a good thing.

W-O


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 09:17 PM

Convenient, isn't it? You don't have to get to know individuals if you can lump them all in one big group and make sanctimonious, un-provable generalizations.

Frank, alcoholism is a DISEASE, not a personality flaw. I hate stereotyping and prejudice based on it. Believe what you want, but most of what you've said destroys your credibility on the subject with me. You make it sound like your beliefs are facts, and they are anything but.


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: alison
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 09:39 PM

Frank, have you any idea how hurtful your comments are to people who have this disease? (and no I'm not one.. I don't drink).

I hate drink drivers, I knelt in the road beside a friend one night as she bled to death (at the age of 17) hit by a drunk driver...... it's a picture I'll never forget, nor the look on her mother's face as I told her what had happened......

But your comments were too general, and hurtful to people here who are asking for help...

alison


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:28 PM

Alison, your thoughts are very well placed. I believe that you'll find that recovering alcoholics who work hard on their sobriety won't be too concerned about bullshit comments from others - the harshest criticsism will come from their own feelings of guilt and (often) perfectionism. Learning to grow again is one of the greatest benefits of being sober.

I'll leave others to assess the effect of bigotry and prejudice on those more vulnerable. At the end of the day however becoming clean/sober and maintaining that state is a personal matter and often a life threatening one. Let's not make it any harder for sufferers to achieve that goal.

As I understand it AA welcomes visitors to many meetings around the world if anyone wants to experience this part of the real world close up. The Alcoholics Anonymous phone number should be in your local phone book.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

I appreciate your comments. Lets take 'em one at a time. Hypeeabid.Drugs and alcohol may not be fun and funny and do hurt others.

Jon, 1. Female alcoholics are also capable of abuse. Husbands and children. 2. Congratulations, Jon. You are apparently a responsible person. You have the guts to call yourself an alcoholic and are working on it. You have my admiration.

3. Alcoholic addiction is a state of mind. It can manifest whether you are drinking or not. It is generally associated with hostility, hence the comment about my talking through my "arse". I know more about it than you give me credit for.

4. I'll take your word for it.

5. Again, I know more about it than you give me credit for. I know that alcoholics are not necessarilly irresponsible all the time. But their responsibility rests with their sobriety. When you tell me that you are responsible to an audience, I take your word for it. but I stand by my statement.

6. Sorry Jon, I don't buy the "hardened alcoholic" statement.

8. Usta' be there. Used stuff. Total waste. "What am I on?" sounds like a hostile statement.

Re: liquor industry and organized crime, I don't believe that this requires too much explanation.

Tobacco and alcohol are addictive substances. For an alcoholic, there is no such thing as a little drink being good for them.

One thing I have noticed, however, that the alcoholic is adamant about defending his/her position until they make an important breakthrough.

Jeri, your point is well-taken about generalizations. I agree. Sanctimonius pronouncements are futile. On the other hand, making excuses for an alcoholic is also a disease.

Alison, helping people is fine. But making excuses is another thing that is not helpful. But encouragement to people like Jon who are trying to do something about it is helpful. It's far more hurtful to make excuses.

I agree with John. AA is a wonderful organization. I have been to meetings and have seen the great things that they do.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:05 AM

Frank,

"One thing I have noticed, however, that the alcoholic is adamant about defending his/her position until they make an important breakthrough"

One thing I have noticed is that some people make sweeping statements before realising that they need modification.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Hyperabid
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:32 AM

Frankham

I think you are failing to draw a line between users and people who have fallen into addicitve diseases...

Secondly, you dismiss all the other points made in the last posting because you don't like the first one.

I still stick with the fact that prohibition and condemnation breed as many problems as they cure.

Sweden and Norway both have restrictive alchohol regimes and some of the highest alchoholism rates in Europe and Scnadinavia. The US import 50 times the amount of Marijuana illegally than the UK yet has only 5 times the population and the strictest drug laws in the developed world.

Don't get me wrong... I have a strong degree of personal empathy with people who need to draw strong lines in their lives to get through the problems brought on by addiction. I find these life standards brave and uncompromising and the spirit needed to stick to them an inspiration.

All I am saying is that the problem of addicitive behaviour is not helped by current attitudes from central government in the developed world. Medical treatments programmes are often more about maintenance on lower risk substitutes... Help organisations are voluntary and receive minimal government aid... and we push those that need our help into the background with the law.

My £0 0s 0d - again

Hyp


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:38 AM

Hi,

I don't believe the problem is other people who are not alcoholics. I don't believe that the problem is the government or attitudes of others. I belive that the responsibility for the problem rests with the alcoholic behavior and it's being condoned by well-meaning enablers.

I was hoping for a rational dialogue on this issue but I think it's too highly charged for sensible discussion.

I want to thank you all for demonstrating just how insidious this disease is and to what lengths the alcoholic and their co-dependants will go to protect their life-style.

Now for me it's on to other things.

Thank you,

Frank


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:24 AM

Frank you introduced much of the latest round of the heated debate. You are as Hyperabid said, guilty of confusing acloholic addiction with Drunkenness. You are also judging a persons personality with no knowledge of what goes on inside that person.

You comment on a little hostility from me. Come on Frank do you really expect to suggest that you can, by implication, accuse me of being a child and wife abuser, suggest that I have an insulting nature, start fights in pubs, etc without attracting a little hostility. Get real Frank, this is nothing to do with alcholism. Non alcoholics would be angered by the same suggestions that you made.

Protect their life style? You are full of shit. Having to have a drink to calm down and relax, etc, is not a happy condition are you so blind and stupid to think that I enjoy waking up feeling ill and knowing that the easiest solution is to have another drink because then I will feel OK. I want out, am trying to get out and I have received helpful advice from people here and there are Mudcatters who were aware that I was struggling and wanted out before this thread started.

Your comments are worthless and inaccurate and I shall be grateful to see you leave this subject alone at least until you are able to separate fact from your own predjudice.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:42 PM

Oh Toad?
Didn't you geddit?
'Guest,threadie', Guest,Threadie', and 'Guest,_gargoyle' were all the one person. In other words someone, not very far away from us, is staring down from his nesting place and overtaking unsuspecting 'Guest' identities.

You're not paying attention, Toad....!!


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,small threadie
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:14 PM

Threadie

You are lying!

Even if no one else does - I know which threads I posted...

you are very small


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,kat/katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:31 PM

Oh dear, I feel a relapse coming on.


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,TonyK
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 12:04 AM

AA works for me. My sponsor is an atheist. I am not. I'm for whatever works. I'm comfortable now in my own skin. I don't log in to mudcat as much since i went back to school, but I don't remember so much acrimony. Easy does it.


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,toad
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 12:44 PM

Huh? I don't understand.%\> toad.


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,Michelle in New York
Date: 01 May 00 - 01:43 PM

In case John Evans and affected others are still reading--- I checked out this site just to find a song name, but saw the subject and decided I should read. My boyfriend of almost 6 years is an alcoholic. He is only 26 and has been drinking since he was 14. Yes, messed up past and all, but he had many chances to make things right, but he wasn't ready. After many break-ups, and tons of psychological help for me to deal with his problem, things got worse. He called me from Holland to "say hi", then I got a call two days later that he had been caught trying to transport drugs overseas. He is now in jail, but has been given another chance through a "boot camp" type program. When he is released, I know things will be tough for him. But I also know that I am not the one who is able to help him through this. He obviously didn't think all of this could happen to him, just like some of the people who responded to John's original e-mail make lightly of their own problems. My boyfriend can only look ahead now, but the road will be a much harder one. The awful evenings I spent waiting for him to come home will always be engraved in my mind. I hope no one else ever has to go through that, and I wish John and others the best of luck throughout their life.

Hope I got my point across. MM


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 01 May 00 - 06:03 PM

Jon,

I applaud your efforts for "wanting to get out". Congratulations. I wish for you nothing but the best.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 May 00 - 06:27 PM

Frank, isn't one of the best things about Mudcat that people can disagree. I apologise to you for my tone in my previous posts and thank you for your last post.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 01 May 00 - 09:10 PM

Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Toad Date: 26-Apr-00 - 11:48 AM "I think that Threadie is a little to defensive."

What did you think I was being 'defensive' about.

I assumed you meant the marquee message by 'Guest,threadie' (the first one).

I was not being defensive about anything in this thread except to say to my unworthy 'imposter' that I did not agree with it's assumption (which it attributed to me), that Alcoholism and music were not related.

Now do you geddit?????.....


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Gypsy
Date: 02 May 00 - 12:20 AM

And I thought that I had violent opinions on the subject. Without generalizing too much, a very great teacher told me this about addiction (of any kind) "People who are addicted, or have addictive personalities, are generally sensitive, highly intelligent beings. The substance is how they try to cope with the chaotic world." Now, much as I intensely dislike substances (yeah,yeah, Temperance union, anyone?) this is a viewpoint i can totally understand. Separate the disease from the person! You don't blame a body for alzheimers, do you? Same, same. Help those with the disease of alcoholism, in the same way.


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Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 02 May 00 - 12:29 AM

Without being condescending or patronizing, you forgot to say.


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