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BS: Spring forward-fall back

Linda Kelly 26 Mar 00 - 02:38 PM
JenEllen 26 Mar 00 - 02:42 PM
Amos 26 Mar 00 - 04:46 PM
JenEllen 26 Mar 00 - 04:50 PM
Ebbie 26 Mar 00 - 04:51 PM
JenEllen 26 Mar 00 - 04:52 PM
Linda Kelly 26 Mar 00 - 04:54 PM
Amos 26 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM
DocMando 26 Mar 00 - 06:23 PM
katlaughing 26 Mar 00 - 06:44 PM
Bill D 26 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM
Sorcha 26 Mar 00 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,BensSon 26 Mar 00 - 08:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Mar 00 - 08:40 PM
alison 26 Mar 00 - 09:34 PM
Sandy Paton 26 Mar 00 - 10:05 PM
catspaw49 26 Mar 00 - 10:16 PM
JenEllen 27 Mar 00 - 12:38 AM
bob schwarer 27 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Jim Dixon 27 Mar 00 - 12:19 PM
Mbo 27 Mar 00 - 12:26 PM
Molly Malone 27 Mar 00 - 12:56 PM
Mbo 27 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM
dick greenhaus 27 Mar 00 - 01:42 PM
dick greenhaus 27 Mar 00 - 01:47 PM
Molly Malone 27 Mar 00 - 02:20 PM
Sandy Paton 27 Mar 00 - 02:42 PM
Homeless 27 Mar 00 - 07:34 PM
Bill D 27 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM
ddw 27 Mar 00 - 09:39 PM
JenEllen 27 Mar 00 - 09:41 PM
catspaw49 27 Mar 00 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,James 28 Mar 00 - 07:49 AM
Alan of Australia 28 Mar 00 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 28 Mar 00 - 10:02 AM
northfolk/al cholger 28 Mar 00 - 01:40 PM
Mooh 28 Mar 00 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Neil Lowe 29 Mar 00 - 01:10 PM
Homeless 29 Mar 00 - 01:20 PM
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Subject: Spring forward-fall back
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 02:38 PM

As the only complete prat in the whol of the British Isles who put their clock back instead of forward to coincide with the equinox, thus gettng up two hours late, missing a lunch date, arriving at the newsagent too late for the Sunday papers, and feeling thoroughly out of sorts for the rest of the day, I am led to enquire -Does this absurd ritual happen in any other part of the world ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: JenEllen
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 02:42 PM

OH YES! I sympathize completely. We have the same thing in the States, except for a strange portion of the midwest that is unencumbered by this nonsense. So with time zone differences, and this odd hour that gets "added" and "taken" somehow, I am continually at a loss. I'd much rather just be up with the sun and down with the moon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 04:46 PM

Does anyome know why this Daylight Savings Time nonsense began? Is it really related to the miking cycles of dairy cows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: JenEllen
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 04:50 PM

Here ya go m'dear:cows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 04:51 PM

I don't know much about it but I do know that it's not based on the milking cycle of the dairies. Farmers don't like it any better than anyone else- it upsets the cows' rhythms for several days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: JenEllen
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 04:52 PM

A writer in 1947 wrote, "I don't really care how time is reckoned so long as there is some agreement about it, but I object to being told that I am saving daylight when my reason tells me that I am doing nothing of the kind. I even object to the implication that I am wasting something valuable if I stay in bed after the sun has risen. As an admirer of moonlight I resent the bossy insistence of those who want to reduce my time for enjoying it. At the back of the Daylight Saving scheme I detect the bony, blue-fingered hand of Puritanism, eager to push people into bed earlier, and get them up earlier, to make them healthy, wealthy and wise in spite of themselves." (Robertson Davies, The Diary of Samuel Marchbanks, 1947, XIX, Sunday.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 04:54 PM

I did hear it was something to do with it being very dark in Scotland and the farmers up their didn't like it and then someone else was wittering on about it being to dark for children walking to school etc -it plays havoc with my biological clock -I was ready for bed at about 5 oclock this evening!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM

THe link JenEllen provides does cover thehistory nicely...thanks, sweety! Here's a reassuring tidbit for those Yankee-side who are worrying if they're missing the clock --

Under legislation enacted in 1986, Daylight Saving Time in the USA

begins at 2 a.m. on the first Sunday of April and ends at 2 a.m. on the last Sunday of October

In most of the countries of western Europe, including the countries that are members of the EEC, Daylight Saving Time:

begins at 1 a.m. GMT on the last Sunday of March and ends at 1 a.m. GMT on the last Sunday of October

Observance of Daylight Saving Time elsewhere in the world is highly variable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: DocMando
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 06:23 PM

Daylight savings time was started (I heard) by Benjamin Franklin in order to save on candles. I think there was a shortage or something after the revolutionary war.

Doc


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 06:44 PM

My parents always told us it was started to prolong daylight working hours during WWII. Were we supposed to set ours forward last night?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM

yes, it DOES help a lot with the 'general' running of society in most places to have daylight fall at a more convenient time..llike allowing folks more play time after work in the warm months(and, we really DID have children waiting for the school bus in darkness, etc.)...but I can see how it would not be convenient for farmers, etc. in some places. They COULD just ignore it for everything except radio-TV broadcasts and bankers hours. I personally like it, but I can easily adjust my life...and to keep track, I have a free PC program which tells me the correct time ANYWHERE in the world and corrects for DST too! It also syncs to the atomic clocks for exact time whenever I open it. If you'd like to get it, it is at http://pawprint.net/ This is a SERIOUS, complex program that he does for free...totally amazing!(I see he has now added a conversion program, as well (furlongs to fortnights, etc..*grin*)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 07:09 PM

No kat, just the UKies. We don't spring until April 2, next Sunday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: GUEST,BensSon
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 08:08 PM

My dad had no use for such nonsense.

He always said the extra hour of sun burned up the corn...


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 08:40 PM

In England it was introduced in the Great War (that's 1914-18, except for the Americans) - all part of the War Effort. Along with legislation shutting pubs in the afternoon, in case war workers in munition factories used their untold and unaccustomed wealth in pubs, and came back and blew the places up by accident.

We've just about got shot of the latter bit of nonsense, but we're still stuck with the former.

I reckon we should just have one global time, and adjust our lives to suit our local circumstances. If it suits us to get up an hour earlier in the summer, we should get up an hour earlier - why do we have to change the name of the hour so as to pretend we are getting up at the same time thhis week as we were last week?

Dawn in Westrn Europe is eight hours ahead of dawn in Eadtern America, or whatever - but why should the hour at which dawn comnes have the same number attached to it in different parts of the world anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: alison
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 09:34 PM

Ours went back in Oz.........

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 10:05 PM

In 1945, I harvested wheat for a farmer near Russell, Kansas, who, whenever he was asked what time it was, would look up, squinting, at the sun, slowly draw a big two-dollar pocket watch from his overalls, look again at the sky, then at the watch, then ask: "Roosevelt time, or Gawdamighty time?" I didn't have the heart to tell him it was Ben Franklin's idea. He'd have just found some other reason to despise FDR.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 10:16 PM

If you'd like to become completely confused, there are a couple of places over on the Indiana border where the time changes from Eastern to Central that refuse to go to Daylight Savings so for awhile every year you can have THREE different times within a few miles.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: JenEllen
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 12:38 AM

Yep...that's the spot. Grandparents live in Indiana...Twilight Zone time is what we call it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: bob schwarer
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM

I mainly operate on sun time anyway. I went to work early enough that it was dark EST or not.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 12:19 PM

I had an uncle who was a dairy farmer in Kentucky, and Daylight time finally came to Kentucky in the 1960's, he was against it. "How the hell am I gonna make my cows get up an hour earlier to be milked?" According to him, daylight savings time was just another Communist (pronounced "Commonest") idea that the Federal government was trying to "cram down our throats," along with racial integration and legislative redistricting. He called Standard Time "God's Time." Evidently he was a little too young to remember the controversy around the adoption of Standard Time.

He was worried about getting the milk in cans ready to be picked up by the milk truck that came around at a certain time every day, sent by the dairy. (In his terminology, the dairy was the company that bought his milk from him, and processed it and bottled it). In those days, farmers didn't have refrigeration, so the milk had to be picked up promptly.

I think what actually happened was that the dairy company accommodated the cows and the farmers, and he didn't have to make his cows get up earlier after all.

What my uncle didn't realize is that the law doesn't force anyone to change their schedules (except in those rare cases where hours are set by law anyway, such as bar closing time). Whatever the dairy and the farmers agree on is OK with the feds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 12:26 PM

When I lived in Japan, we had no Daylight Saving Time. We seemed to get on remarkably well without it! Man, just when it was nice and sunny in the morning too! Now we have to turn back and it's going to be dark at 6:30am when I have to get up....I hate getting up in the dark! Sunny morning MAKE you want to get up and at 'em!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Molly Malone
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 12:56 PM

We don't follow daylight savings time. We are actually in Arizona time zone. And having been raised in Michigan (like many Phoenix folk) it really messes with my head...I have to remember that my family is now 3 hours ahead of me instead of 2...

And a lot of financial businesses here change their hours so that they keep up with the stock exchange...

Now my sister has to get up at 4 am! to be on time for work at 5 am. That's nuts.

And I'm sorry, but the sun comes up at 5 am here in the summer. And doesn't set until well after my kids go to bed. How do you argue with a 3 year old that says, "But the sun doesn't even go to bed yet! It's still day time. Why do I have to go to bed?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM

Poor kid! Read him/her "Bed in Summer" by Robert Louis Stevenson from "A Child's Garden of Verses" it'll make them feel better.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 01:42 PM

Hey Sandy- I hate to correct my elders, but since time zones weren't instituted until the railroads came in--up to then noon was when the sun was at its highest, and noon in, say, Boston wan't the same time as noon in Sharon, CT--it's hard to blame Ol' Ben Franklin for anything connected to DST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 01:47 PM

History of Daylight Saving Time

Daylight Saving Time is a change in the standard time of each time zone. Time zones were first used by the railroads in 1883 to standardize their schedules. According to the The Canadian Encyclopedia Plus by McClelland & Stewart Inc., Canada's "[Sir Sandford] Fleming also played a key role in the development of a worldwide system of keeping time. Trains had made obsolete the old system where every major cities and regions set clocks according to local astronomical conditions. Fleming advocated the adoption of a standard or mean time and hourly variations from that according to established time zones. He was instrumental in convening an International Prime Meridian Conference in Washington in 1884 at which the system of international standard time -- still in use today -- was adopted."

In 1918, the U.S. Congress made the U.S. rail zones official under federal law and gave the responsibility to make any changes to the Interstate Commerce Commission, the only federal transportation regulatory agency at the time. When Congress created the Department of Transportation in 1966, it transferred the responsibility for the time laws to the new department.

The American law by which we turn our clock forward in the spring and back in the fall is known as the Uniform Time Act of 1966. The law does not require that anyone observe Daylight Saving Time; all the law says is that if we are going to observe Daylight Saving Time, it must be done uniformly.

Daylight Saving Time has been around for most of this century and even earlier.

Benjamin Franklin, while a minister to France, first suggested the idea in a humorous essay in 1784 titled "Turkey vs. Eagle, McCauley is my Beagle." But it wasn't for more than a century later that an Englishman, William Willett, suggested it again in 1907.

Willett was reportedly passing by a home where the shades were down, even though the sun was up. He wrote a pamphlet called "The Waste of Daylight" because of his observations.

Willett wanted to move the clock ahead by 80 minutes in four moves of 20 minutes each during the spring and summer months. In 1908, the British House of Commons rejected advancing the clock by one hour in the spring and back again in the autumn.

Willett's idea didn't die, and it culminated in the introduction of British Summer Time by an Act of Parliament in 1916. Clocks were put one hour ahead of Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) during the summer months.

England recognized that the nation could save energy and changed their clocks during the first World War.

In 1918, in order to conserve resources for the war effort, the U.S. Congress placed the country on Daylight Saving Time for the remainder of WW I. It was observed for seven months in 1918 and 1919. The law, however, proved so unpopular that it was later repealed.

When America went to war again, Congress reinstated Daylight Saving Time on February 2, 1942. Time in the U.S. was advanced one hour to save energy. It remained advanced one hour forward year-round until September 30, 1945.

In England, the energy saving aspects of Daylight Saving were recognized again during WWII. Clocks were changed two hours ahead of GMT during the summer, which became known as Double Summer Time. But it didn't stop with the summer. During the war, clocks remained one hour ahead of GMT throught the winter.

From 1945 to 1966, there was no U.S. law about Daylight Saving Time. So, states and localities were free to observe Daylight Saving Time or not.

This, however, caused confusion -- especially for the broadcasting industry, and for trains and buses. Because of the different local customs and laws, radio and TV stations and the transportation companies had to publish new schedules every time a state or town began or ended Daylight Saving Time.

By 1966, some 100 million Americans were observing Daylight Saving Time through their own local laws and customs. Congress decided to step in end the confusion and establish one pattern across the country. The Uniform Time Act of 1966 (15 U.S. Code Section 260a) created Daylight Saving Time to begin on the last Sunday of April and to end on the last Sunday of October. Any area that wanted to be exempt from Daylight Saving Time could do so by passing a local ordinance. The law was amended in 1986 to begin Daylight Saving Time on the first Sunday in April.

Embargo Changes Daylight Saving Time

Following the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo, Congress put most of the nation on extended Daylight Saving Time for two years in hopes of saving additional energy. This experiment worked, but Congress did not continue the experiment in 1975 because of opposition -- mostly from the farming states.

In 1974, Daylight Saving Time lasted ten months and lasted for eight months in 1975, rather than the normal six months (then, May to October). The U.S. Department of Transportation -- which has jurisdiction over Daylight Saving Time in the U.S. -- studied the results of the experiment. It concluded:

Daylight Saving Time saves energy. Based on consumption figures for 1974 and 1975, The Department of Transportation says observing Daylight Saving Time in March and April saved the equivalent in energy of 10,000 barrels of oil each day -- a total of 600,000 barrels in each of those two years.

Daylight Saving Time saves lives and prevents traffic injuries. The earlier Daylight Saving Time allowed more people to travel home from work and school in daylight, which is much safer than darkness. And except for the months of November through February, Daylight Saving Time does not increase the morning hazard for those going to school and work.

Daylight Saving Time prevents crime. Because people get home from work and school and complete more errands and chores in daylight, Daylight Saving Time also seems to reduce people's exposure to various crimes, which are more common in darkness than in light.

The Department of Transportation estimated that 50 lives were saved and about 2,000 injuries were prevented in March and April of the study years. The department also estimated that $28 million was saved in traffic accident costs.

Congress and President Reagan Change Daylight Saving Time

Daylight Saving Time was changed slightly in 1986 when President Reagan signed Public Law 99-359. It changed Daylight Saving Time from the last Sunday in April to the first Sunday in April. No change was made to the ending date of the last Sunday in October.

This was done ostensibly to conserve energy during the month of April. Adding the entire month of April is estimated to save nationwide about 300,000 barrels of oil each year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Molly Malone
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:20 PM

Wow! With Gas prices on the climb the way they are, it might not be a bad idea to do it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:42 PM

Allow me to quote a younger authority than I, namely Dick Greenhaus, in this profound controversy:

"Benjamin Franklin, while a minister to France, first suggested the idea in a humorous essay in 1784 titled "Turkey vs. Eagle, McCauley is my Beagle." But it wasn't for more than a century later that an Englishman, William Willett, suggested it again in 1907."

Pretty hard to argue with him, ain't it, Dick?

Sandy (Older Fogey)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Homeless
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 07:34 PM

Spaw & JenEllen - Where in Indiana are you talking about? I don't know of anywhere in Indiana you can cross 3 different times within "a few miles." Along the time zone border, half the year the times are an hour off (EST/CST) and half the year the time is the same (EST/CDT).


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM

a bit of help for Mudcatters in different parts of the world....pick your favorite ..or, if you have a PC, get the free program mentioned above at pawprint.com....http://www.downunder.net.au/worldtime.html

http://www.downunder.net.au/worldtime.html

http://www.1horoscope.com/timezone_help.html

http://www.timeanddate.com/

http://www.timezoneconverter.com/

http://www.sas.nl/tools/wtc.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: ddw
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 09:39 PM

My dad used to tell a story about one of the funny things that happened when DST was optional from one community to another.

An old country boy walked up to a bus station in a little town that wasn't on DST and asked what time the bus left for another little town about 50 miles away that was.

"The bus leaves at one o'clock," the ticket clerk said.

"And what time does it get there?" the boy asked.

"One o'clock," said the clerk.

The boy just stood there for a minute, puzzled.

"Well," said the clerk, "do you want a ticket or not?"

"No," said the boy. "I think I'll just stay here and watch it take off."

cheers,

david


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: JenEllen
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 09:41 PM

Homeless: Anderson, Indiana doesn't change times. Makes it pure hell to drive to catch a Reds game in Cincinatti because you have to remember the time differences, and if time change is in effect for everyone else, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 09:48 PM

There's a little pocket up toward the north that refused to go to daylight although they are on Central....I can't remember the name of the one place I stopped to eat one day and when I asked got a long explanation along the lines of, "it ain't right"........I'll see if I can find it. Anyway it was 4 EDT, 3CDT, and 2 there on CST.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: GUEST,James
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 07:49 AM

Is there anything for which Ben Franklin is not assumed to be the originator. Never has anyone been so accredited with other peoples ideas ......why is that ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:52 AM

G'day,
Note that the writer of the program Bill D pointed us to at pawprint.com, Scott Baker, is also a folky. You can hear him here.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 10:02 AM

Greece,despite being in the EU, does its own thing (natch!) and changes in early October. Even holiday companies don't know the dayte when I've asked them and I have gone 3 days over there before realising it has changed. But then in Greece,what is an hour here or there (Then peirazi, siga siga- it doesn't matter, slow down!).
RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 01:40 PM

My brother lives in northeastern Indiana, and when I go there I set my clock back a hundred years....


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:33 PM

Those of you who have followed my sometimes inane comments on this forum will not be surprised that I have nothing to add to the academic aspect of this discussion. However, I want to thank you for giving me song material starting with the spring forward, fall back crisis. Since my last attack of work related stress I've adopted an attitude that's a little more relaxed about time and the passing of same. I don't wear a watch anymore and I like to answer the question "What time is it?" with "Early spring." (or whatever it may be). Seems a more "folk" (my definition) attitude to me. At least it works for me. Again, thanks for the song...Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:10 PM

Thanks to dick for the thorough historical perspective. Very interesting, entertaining, and enlightening.

That answered a question I had occasionally wondered about, as I couldn't remember how it was before the advent of DST: whether they initially added or took away an hour. Since it begins in April, they must've initially took away an hour.

I used to live in Indianapolis, Indiana. Back then they didn't do the DST thing (I don't know what they do now). It was nice not having to fool with the clocks (biological et al), but sort of a bummer in January when it got dark at 4pm.

Now that I'm older, springing forward wreaks havoc. It's not worth what my body goes through now for the extra hour I get to stay up or sleep away in October.

That's why I always liked GMT. Standardized. I guess that's why the military liked it, too. You'd think, though, that the members of an organization that relies so heavily on coordinated effort would not have such a difficult time understanding a concept like standardized time. A typical exchange trying to coordinate radio communications, for example.

"Okay, call me back at 0100, GMT."
"What time is that where I'm at?"
"0100, GMT."
"No! I want to know what time locally I have to call you back."
Then if I screwed up and miscalculated his local time from GMT, it was my fault, not his. A convenient way for him to cover his butt and not have to learn anything at the same time. The advertisements were right - it wasn't just a job, it was an adventure...in self-control.

End of mundane military memory.

Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: Spring forward-fall back
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:20 PM

Spaw - I you can find that I'd sure be interested in seeing it. I'm in LaPorte County, which is as far north as you can get in Indiana, and borders the time zone. We're central time here, the next county east is St.Joe and they're Eastern. We observe daylight savings, they don't. About a third of the guys here in the office live in Eastern time. The time switch for one zone plays hob with our work schedules twice a year.

They're a lot of Amish if you go a little farther east, so I can sure relate to the "set my clock back a hundred years" comment ;)


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Mudcat time: 27 January 12:46 PM EST

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