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Music Copyright Assault on Websites

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PETER TIMMERMAN 16 Jun 97 - 03:19 PM
Peter Timmerman 16 Jun 97 - 03:24 PM
Peter Timmerman 16 Jun 97 - 03:29 PM
16 Jun 97 - 05:06 PM
Susan of DT 16 Jun 97 - 06:09 PM
Rodney Rawlings 17 Jun 97 - 11:48 AM
17 Jun 97 - 06:22 PM
17 Jun 97 - 06:24 PM
Max 17 Jun 97 - 08:20 PM
Ricky Rackin 17 Jun 97 - 08:52 PM
Peter Timmerman 17 Jun 97 - 09:17 PM
Tilell 17 Jun 97 - 09:22 PM
Bill 18 Jun 97 - 04:10 AM
James 19 Jun 97 - 04:02 PM
Joe Offer 19 Jun 97 - 05:00 PM
Ralph Butts 19 Jun 97 - 05:14 PM
Peter Timmerman 20 Jun 97 - 09:48 AM
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Subject: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: PETER TIMMERMAN
Date: 16 Jun 97 - 03:19 PM

Of interest:

“INTERNET SONG USE SPURS RECORDING INDUSTRY SUITS” copyright New York Times, Monday June 16, 1997 by Andrew Ross Sorkin

The recording industry, which has been plagued by piracy of its own in


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 16 Jun 97 - 03:24 PM

“INTERNET SONG USE SPURS RECORDING INDUSTRY SUITS” copyright New York Times, Monday June 16, 1997 by Andrew Ross Sorkin

The recording industry, which has been plagued by piracy of its own in


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 16 Jun 97 - 03:29 PM

Analog form -- illegal tape recordings -- acknowledged its growing new digital problem quite loudly last week, filing three lawsuits against the operators of Web sites reportedly pirating and distributing copyrighted songs free over the Internet.

"We are serving notice to other sites that we are going to vigorously protect our copyrights," said Hilary Rosen, the president of the Recording Industry Association of America, which filed the suit on behalf of its members. Because the names of the Web site operators were unknown, the industry sued the Internet addresses, hoping to discover who the operators actually were.

"Other owners of intellectual property -- the recording industry, the movie industry, the photo people -- are finding themselves with the same problem the software industry has had for years," said Bob Kruger, vice president of piracy enforcement for the Business Software Alliance in Washington.

Now that most music is available in a digital format, hackers and music fans alike can easily post songs on the Internet. No matter how many times they are copied, the quality of the sound remains consistent and the song remains consistently free. "The recording industry has always been able to protect itself through the argument that there is a degradation in quality from one generation to the next," Mr. Kruger said. "But now there is absolutely no difference between the original and the copy -- you have removed the disadvantage."

Most of the "virtual" bootleggers who operate Web sites that offer illegal music copies do it as a hobby, not to make money, according to those familiar with such cases.

"He did not think he was violating the law," said Andrew Dickey, president of BestWeb, an Internet service provider that was host to the Web site of an unidentified 19 year old male, whose site was sued by the recording industry.

"They view this as a victimless crime," Mr. Kruger said. "They don't understand the scope of the threat they pose to the industry."


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From:
Date: 16 Jun 97 - 05:06 PM

Yes, even here in the wilds of Canada we get the business oriented TV channel. I saw this item being discussed last week. Does this post mean that DT is under assault (again)?

Frank Phillips


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Jun 97 - 06:09 PM

This sounds like they are objecting to putting copyrighted CDs to play free over the internet - not anything like what we have. We have permission of just about everyone of the songwriters we know we have.


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Rodney Rawlings
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 11:48 AM

Those who post long excerpts from books, however interesting, should also be mindful of copyright limits. Many lyrics are also protected by copyright.


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From:
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 06:22 PM

Susan: Does this mean that DT has permission on an artist basis or on a song by song basis.

If it is the first case and if the DT has several songs by an artist with copyrights listed we might assume that we could post another one (with copyright listed of course).

If it is the second case then maybe one should never post songs to these threads unless one KNOWS they have no copyright. (As Rodney seems to be saying)

Frank Phillips


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From:
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 06:24 PM

Continued:

Or unless one has permission from the artist which, given the number of performers who seem to frequent this site is by no means unlikely.

Frank Phillips (again)


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Max
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 08:20 PM

Nice thread...

Just thought I'd give my 2 cents to why we have not been sued yet. First, the only people we have had problems with are those people who make money off of what we give away for free. (I must stay general here for fear of pissing them off, although the denounce us publicly, they visit us every day)

There are a lot of copyrights owned like investments. Others just get upset that they did a lot of research and worked deals and paid fees to distribute copyrighted material. We do our share of research, but offer it as a free service.

The people that I am truly concerned about are the song- writers. It was there emotion that spilled on the page for these things to exist.

We are a non-profit entity. We put hours and days and weeks of our lives into providing these things to the world. All behind the belief that this makes the world a better place. As elementary schools around the country decide to cut music and art because their diminishing budgets and the lack of their real world importance, we forget about what makes one happy. Sure they'll teach us to get a job, but it is not their responsibility to teach us of the finer things in life. I agree with this too. I do not like the idea of a government regulated institution that acts as an authority on happiness. They are just not qualified. The point is that as budget shaving and practicality trends expand, WE must pick up the effort. This is what the Mudcat and the DigiTrad stand for. When nobody else cares, We'll be at the stairs of The Library of Congress with the DigiTrad Disks in one hand, and the discussion forum in the other, saying "People forgot this stuff."

Bottom line is that we work hard at getting all the permissions and correct copyright information, but because of the lack of funding, lack of volunteers, lack of time, and just the shear size of the collection, we are not perfect.

We are constantly in jeopardy. This will never stop. We hold back some things because of the issue and the fear. We spend our own money on this... we do not make money. We are used as an academic resource by many institutions, colleges, high schools, elementary schools, and even The Library of Congress. We are officially registered as a non-profit corporation. If we do get sued, Dick and I will have more free time and will save some money every month, and whoever sues us will get the worst negative press in history. I will personally ensure that.

Simply, we just try to keep people happy. If we hear an objection, we immediately respond and resolve it. We want to protect the artist. We just have a collection of lyrics that people want to look at, we are not copyright experts, and this is not a copyright resource. Check your facts in an appropriate index like bmi or ascap.

To all of you I'll say as I say to myself when I wonder if I should put a lyric, picture or story up on the site: Just do it. (Uh oh, I hope the Nike people don't object to that.) What we are doing is good and wholesome, and makes the world a better place, and if the capitalists don't like it then they are the bad guys. We should not back down before the fight.

If you know the copyright, by all means include it, if you don't say so, and perhaps one of our other viewers will know. We're just all learning here.

Just some thoughts...


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Ricky Rackin
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 08:52 PM

Heart-felt thanks for your honest, direct candor, Max!! You and Dick do the best of all work. Right-on!!!!! Ricky


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 09:17 PM

The question I have is, are you protected by rules about fair use, scholarly use, and personal use? Or in terms of the music downloads, is it because they are poor copies (if I can put it that way). You have probably answered this a thousand times, but it might be useful to hear it again. More generally, this seems to me to be a classic case of intellectual property right failure: I am sure that virtually everyone who uses this site is driven to go out and buy copies of things they have heard. Killing this sort of thing destroys word-of-mouth publicity and the purchasing community. Yours, Peter

P.S. I too appreciate what you are doing. I also hear again, that there is a need for funds. I will start a new thread about this.


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Tilell
Date: 17 Jun 97 - 09:22 PM

Max, my dear sir. . .

If there were a way I could give you a standing ovation over the web for that wonderful post. . . I would, as it is. . . you'll just have to picture it.

Gregory Tremblay


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Bill
Date: 18 Jun 97 - 04:10 AM

Howdy Max and all,

Your comments that we're all learning and that we need to do what feels right and will be good and wholesome, and make the world a better place really say a lot about you, about this site, and about so many of our great contributors and observers. If more of the world operated on these principles, we might be in a better place.

I did stop by the news page on this visit, and I'm really impressed with the things you have in mind and in the works. Keep up the good work and the good thoughts.

Allinkausay,
Bill


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: James
Date: 19 Jun 97 - 04:02 PM

Max, great thoughts. I am not in agreement with the notion that believes in taking advantage because of an ambiguity but I am for some straight, hard thinking in this "fuzzy" area of intellectual property. Can anybody REALLY define this satisfactorily? I can't. We need to be carefull in what we copy but until the entire copyright issue has had a complete overhall and terms are much better defined, we'll continue indictments and court fights until the cows come home. My personal feeling is, the copyright law as it now stands, is a mess. It is largely unclear and it is almost un- enforcable (is that a word?). Until the framers of such laws can do a better job, we can expect the entire issue to only get worse.


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 97 - 05:00 PM

I think Max puts things pretty well. We live in a culture that is obsessed with legalism, and we can get to the point where we don't do anything because we are afraid of being sued. The people at Digital Tradition try to give credit where credit is due, and try to make sure that the songwriters don't lose out because of anything posted here. Editor Mark Moss has made some interesting comments about this matter in the last couple of issues of Sing Out! His articles are worth a look-see. He made some good points about the need to protect the rights of songwriters, and I think the people at Digital Tradition have followed through on his suggestions.

Max and Dick and Susan and whoever else deserves credit - thanks!!

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: ONE MILLION LAWYERS
From: Ralph Butts
Date: 19 Jun 97 - 05:14 PM

Well said, Max!

Personally, I believe there aren't enough lawyers (can't believe I said that) to prosecute the copyright cases, given the kinds of electronic communication we have now.

I began searching for lyrics on the Web a scant two years ago, and what has happened since then is incredible. It's only a matter of time before EVERYTHING is available electronically (and immediately), whether the so-called copyright owner likes it or not. I suggest this is GOOD for the so-called copyright owners, because I'm much more liable to go out and buy so-and-so's CD, once I've had a crack at the lyrics. I'd say my sheet music, songbook, and CD purchases have tripled since I started surfing. Isn't that what it's all about?

Finally, I offer a little ditty (with apologies to Tom for the apparent copyright infringement). You can hum a few bars when you retire for the evening......Tiger

-----------------------------------

ONE MILLION LAWYERS -- Tom Paxton

Humankind has survived some disasters, I'm sure.
Like locusts and flash floods and flu.
There's never a moment when we've been secure
From the ills that the flesh is heir to.
If it isn't a war, it's some gruesome disease.
If it isn't disease, then it's war.
But there's worse still to come, and I'm asking you please
How the world's gonna take any more?

    CHORUS
    In ten years we're gonna have one million lawyers,
    One million lawyers, one million lawyers.
    In ten years we're gonna have one million lawyers.
    How much can a poor nation stand?

The world shook with dread of Atilla the Hun
As he conquered with fire and steel,
And Genghis and Kubla and all of the Khans
Ground a groaning world under the heel.
Disaster, disaster, so what else is new?
We've suffered the worst and then some.
So I'm sorry to tell you, my suffering friends,
Of the terrible scourge still to come.

    CHORUS

    INSTRUMENTAL BREAK

Oh, a suffering world cries for mercy
As far as the eye can see.
Lawyers around every bend in the road,
Lawyers in every tree,
Lawyers in restaurants, lawyers in clubs,
Lawyers behind every door,
Behind windows and potted plants, shade trees and shrubs,
Lawyers on pogo sticks, lawyers in politics!

    CHORUS

In spring there's tornadoes and rampaging floods,
In summer it's heat stroke and draught.
There's Ivy League football to ruin the fall,
It's a terrible scourge, without doubt.
There are blizzards to batter the shivering plain.
There are dust storms that strike, but far worse
Is the threat of disaster to shrivel the brain,
It's the threat of implacable curse.

    CHORUS

    (How much can a poor nation stand?)


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Subject: RE: MUSIC COPYRIGHT ASSAULT ON WEB SITES
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 20 Jun 97 - 09:48 AM

Great song. I remember another one very vaguely about lawyers that involves survivors on a lifeboat eating each other up, and the survivor was the lawyer because no one could stand the thought of eating lawyer. Chords if you have them (watch out) and is it available on an album? Yours, Peter


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